I've often said that Makita stuff seems to punch above its weight. I've got
a 860w Makita router that performs better than a 1200w 'shed' own brand, a
950w circular saw that eats 38mm worktop & a 14.4v combi that I reckon would
see off a lot of 18v tools.

I wonder if this is down to the way they quote the figures.

When I were in the pressure washer game there were a trade body what laid
down standards for measurement of pressure, flow rate & temperature.

At one stage I worked for a Danish manufacturer (Gerni) who quoted exact
performance figures for each machine. The standard laid down rules for
where in the pressure could be measured, how it should be measured & the
tolerance allowed. Pressure was +/- 10% and in their brochures Karcher
always used actual test pressure + 10%, whereas Gerni used actual test
pressure - which made the Gerni machines seem less powerful.

Temperature was a bit flexible in how you measured it. Gerni quoted max
temp as 135c because that was what you got at the nozzle, Karcher and all
the others quoted 150c because that was what you could measure at the
machine. The 10 metre pressure hose lost you 15c before the water got to
the nozzle, so the machines produced the same heat.

DIY pressure washers aren't covered by the trade body & the claims are
outrageous. 'Maximum' pressure 120 bar often means 85 bar working and if it
reaches 120 bar the pump head splits!

So, I wonder if a Makita 860w is another's 1200w depending on how you
measure it? Perhaps Makita quote the correct figures & others quote
'maximum' figures?

Is there a standard measure?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:
I've often said that Makita stuff seems to punch above its weight. I've got
a 860w Makita router that performs better than a 1200w 'shed' own brand, a
950w circular saw that eats 38mm worktop & a 14.4v combi that I reckon would
see off a lot of 18v tools.

I wonder if this is down to the way they quote the figures.

When I were in the pressure washer game there were a trade body what laid
down standards for measurement of pressure, flow rate & temperature.

At one stage I worked for a Danish manufacturer (Gerni) who quoted exact
performance figures for each machine. The standard laid down rules for
where in the pressure could be measured, how it should be measured & the
tolerance allowed. Pressure was +/- 10% and in their brochures Karcher
always used actual test pressure + 10%, whereas Gerni used actual test
pressure - which made the Gerni machines seem less powerful.

Temperature was a bit flexible in how you measured it. Gerni quoted max
temp as 135c because that was what you got at the nozzle, Karcher and all
the others quoted 150c because that was what you could measure at the
machine. The 10 metre pressure hose lost you 15c before the water got to
the nozzle, so the machines produced the same heat.

DIY pressure washers aren't covered by the trade body & the claims are
outrageous. 'Maximum' pressure 120 bar often means 85 bar working and if it
reaches 120 bar the pump head splits!

So, I wonder if a Makita 860w is another's 1200w depending on how you
measure it? Perhaps Makita quote the correct figures & others quote
'maximum' figures?

Is there a standard measure?


I think your points are valid. Only independent testing by a suitably
trustworthy body would get over the moving goalposts. And that isn't
going to happen. :-(

Many years ago I had a small Bosch circular saw which worked
excellently. Its rating (a few hundred watts) was pathetic compared to
B&D and other makes. The explanation I got (from where I cannot
remember) was that all the rest used plain journals whereas the Bosch
had some form of proper bearing. Not at all sure if that was the case
but it sounded good. :-)

Now I see the Jan-Mar 2008 Bosch sales catalogue (BluePrint) which says
about a new mid-range drill driver:

"They can run for longer too: up to 30% more screws per battery charge
due to a newly developed gearbox."

Consideration of losses internal to the tools (fans, bearings and
gearboxes being obvious areas) might be part of the explanation.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message m...
I've often said that Makita stuff seems to punch above its weight.
I've got a 860w Makita router that performs better than a 1200w 'shed'
own brand, a 950w circular saw that eats 38mm worktop & a 14.4v combi
that I reckon would see off a lot of 18v tools.

I wonder if this is down to the way they quote the figures.

snip

I do have some sympathy for the power tool makers here, and not just
because I worked for one many years ago.

Take a simple tool like a mains-powered drill. What matters about its
power? Is it the maximum power it can deliver at the chuck, running
continuously - which is how you might rate an electric motor used on a
production lathe? Or is it the maximum power you can use in short
bursts, as in, say, drilling a succession of large holes in masonry? If
so, do you assume the drill runs on no-load for a while between holes,
enabling the fan to cool it, or that it's left stationary between holes?
Is it always the maximum power that's important, or the maximum torque?
And what happens if the torque-speed curve is such that it falls away so
rapidly with decreasing speed that the drill stalls easily?

This is looking at it purely from the electrical point of view. What
about the effect on mechanical components of running at maximum output?
A pair of gears might transmit a relatively huge amount of power for a
couple of minutes occasionally, which might be what matters when you
encounter a re-bar in your lintel, but how do you take into account that
their life under these conditions will be short? Six-tooth pinions are
fine at 1 rpm in a longcase clock, heaving a seconds-hand round, but
drill makers routinely use them at 30000rpm on the end of armatures.

So, in the end, it's a matter of judgement: the manufacturers' and the
users', and I really don't think that a single figure, or a set of
figures, or even a couple of graphs, is going to help anyone a great
deal. So we'll carry on as we do now: marketing departments will insist
on quoting implausible and meaningless numbers, and we'll carry on
buying on the basis of hearsay, budget, and prejudice (or accumulated
wisdom, as some prefer to call it). Oh, and engineering judgement - but
not fancy colours or go-faster stripes.


--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. )***

On 2008-03-23 01:38:11 +0000, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

I've often said that Makita stuff seems to punch above its weight. I've got
a 860w Makita router that performs better than a 1200w 'shed' own brand, a
950w circular saw that eats 38mm worktop & a 14.4v combi that I reckon would
see off a lot of 18v tools.

I wonder if this is down to the way they quote the figures.

The conventional wisdom is that the input power is quoted. That's
fine as far as it goes but what actually matters is the output
(mechanical) power at the business end. The motors in good
quality branded tools are more efficient in those of the generic
Chinese private label junk.

So if you look at it in terms of what you're getting out vs. the quoted
figure, then Makita will appear to "punch above its weight". You
will find the same from (e.g.) Bosch, DeWalt, Freud and Festool
routers. I would argue that these tools are punching *at* their
weight and that the generic junk punches at way below its apparent
weight.
We've had threads here before about products such as PPPro, which
although quoted at 2000 or 2200W are delivering a mechanical output
equivalent to about 1400W from a proper tool.

The reasons for this are cost, use and marketing. For the low end of
the market, the characteristics required are for low usage rate and in
short bursts. They can get away with a low efficiency motor that turns
the spare electrical energy into heat. They are gambling on the usage
pattern being low enough that the motor won't fail within the
(apparently generous) 3 year warranty.

This is also convenient from the marketing perspective. it looks far
more attractive to the uninitiated to be offered a router with 2200W
"power" as compared with the 1800W of the branded competition. Add in
a worthless laser guide, chunky handles for "real men" and a 3yr
warranty and they can be sold by the container load with an acceptable
percentage being returned to go in the skip.

The same has happened with cordless tools. The branded manufacturers
have gone for good mechanics, decent motor and especially decent
batteries. Makita have executed particularly well on that strategy
which has allowed them to have a comprehensively good stable of
cordless drill drivers for a number of years. Panasonic did a very
good job with battery technology a couple of years back and bravely
produced a 15.6v drill when everybody else was adding 18v products.
To the extent that they could market it, it was an interesting
differentiator. In product tests, it was not very far short of what
the 18v tools were doing mechanically, but the amount of work per
charge was way better.

At the other end of the market, the marketeers simply moved upwards in
the voltage stakes to 18v 24v, 32v, simply adding in extra cheap cells.
I can remember Screwfix advertising a 32v drill for £32 - £1 per
volt was the banner. No doubt they sold a few to the terminally stupid.

Therefore of course a Makita 14.4v product will outperform a generic
18v product.


It's for these reasons, and lack of proper backup, that I won't buy
Chinese generic tools. It simply isn't worth it.

By the time one compares the branded product of power/voltage N with
the generic of N + 50 to100% and looks at usability, precision and
service, the decision falls very obviously with the quality branded
product.




When I were in the pressure washer game there were a trade body what laid
down standards for measurement of pressure, flow rate & temperature.

At one stage I worked for a Danish manufacturer (Gerni) who quoted exact
performance figures for each machine. The standard laid down rules for
where in the pressure could be measured, how it should be measured & the
tolerance allowed. Pressure was +/- 10% and in their brochures Karcher
always used actual test pressure + 10%, whereas Gerni used actual test
pressure - which made the Gerni machines seem less powerful.

Temperature was a bit flexible in how you measured it. Gerni quoted max
temp as 135c because that was what you got at the nozzle, Karcher and all
the others quoted 150c because that was what you could measure at the
machine. The 10 metre pressure hose lost you 15c before the water got to
the nozzle, so the machines produced the same heat.

Did it actually make a difference in operation? The principle is the
same as above although not perhaps quite so stark. Why didn't Gerni
alter their specifications and test procedures to the same as those of
Kaercher or perhaps quote two sets of figures (pointing out which one
the competition uses)? This would have analogous to quoting input
and output power for a drill.

I think from what you've said before, Gerni wanted to sell a quality
product honestly to a discerning market and the market shrank.



DIY pressure washers aren't covered by the trade body & the claims are
outrageous. 'Maximum' pressure 120 bar often means 85 bar working and if it
reaches 120 bar the pump head splits!

Same thing. Nobody in the target market can measure it and the
measurement means are not described.

I haven't looked at the required set of standards for a CE declaration
on pressure washers. Undoubtedly it includes electrical safety and
electromagnetc compatibility, but probably not a lot more.



So, I wonder if a Makita 860w is another's 1200w depending on how you
measure it? Perhaps Makita quote the correct figures & others quote
'maximum' figures?


You could look at it that way.



Is there a standard measure?

Only of people's stupidity in putting purchase price and headline spec.
numbers in front of what *actually* matters.

"Rod" wrote in message
...

Many years ago I had a small Bosch circular saw which worked excellently.
Its rating (a few hundred watts) was pathetic compared to B&D and other
makes. The explanation I got (from where I cannot remember) was that all
the rest used plain journals whereas the Bosch had some form of proper
bearing. Not at all sure if that was the case but it sounded good. :-)

Obviously not true though.. if you really were losing a few hundred watts in
the bearings they would be glowing white after a few seconds.
There may be something in the motor efficiency

On 2008-03-23 13:50:35 +0000, "dennis@home"
said:



"Rod" wrote in message
...

Many years ago I had a small Bosch circular saw which worked
excellently. Its rating (a few hundred watts) was pathetic compared to
B&D and other makes. The explanation I got (from where I cannot
remember) was that all the rest used plain journals whereas the Bosch
had some form of proper bearing. Not at all sure if that was the case
but it sounded good. :-)

Obviously not true though.. if you really were losing a few hundred
watts in the bearings they would be glowing white after a few seconds.
There may be something in the motor efficiency



There is. The excess energy has to go somewhere. This is why
cheap angle grinders have a lifetime measured in minutes and may catch
fire.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-23 01:38:11 +0000, "The Medway Handyman"
SNIP
At one stage I worked for a Danish manufacturer (Gerni) who quoted
exact performance figures for each machine. The standard laid down
rules for where in the pressure could be measured, how it should be
measured & the tolerance allowed. Pressure was +/- 10% and in their
brochures Karcher always used actual test pressure + 10%, whereas
Gerni used actual test pressure - which made the Gerni machines seem
less powerful. Temperature was a bit flexible in how you measured it.
Gerni quoted
max temp as 135c because that was what you got at the nozzle,
Karcher and all the others quoted 150c because that was what you
could measure at the machine. The 10 metre pressure hose lost you
15c before the water got to the nozzle, so the machines produced the
same heat.

Did it actually make a difference in operation? The principle is the
same as above although not perhaps quite so stark. Why didn't Gerni
alter their specifications and test procedures to the same as those of
Kaercher or perhaps quote two sets of figures (pointing out which one
the competition uses)? This would have analogous to quoting input
and output power for a drill.

In the end they did, it had started to affect sales, so they told the same
lies as everyone else.

I think from what you've said before, Gerni wanted to sell a quality
product honestly to a discerning market and the market shrank.

Partly, but much more to do with a small privately owned company (GERt
NIelson) being bough by a large conglomerate (Nilfisk Advance). Managers
with no knowledge of the industry, graduates with no knowledge of anything,
short term planning to satisfy shareholders, downsizing staff who had been
there 20+ years. A story as old as time.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

Andy Hall wrote:
snip
At the other end of the market, the marketeers simply moved upwards in
the voltage stakes to 18v 24v, 32v, simply adding in extra cheap cells.
I can remember Screwfix advertising a 32v drill for £32 - £1 per volt
was the banner. No doubt they sold a few to the terminally stupid.

snip

Bosch (at least) have now hit 36v.

http://www.bosch-pt.com/uk/en/gw/newdeals/media/p5-6-BluePrint-Q4.pdf

The next generation will probably run off PoE. :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Autolycus wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
SNIP

So, in the end, it's a matter of judgement: the manufacturers' and the
users', and I really don't think that a single figure, or a set of
figures, or even a couple of graphs, is going to help anyone a great
deal. So we'll carry on as we do now: marketing departments will
insist on quoting implausible and meaningless numbers, and we'll
carry on buying on the basis of hearsay, budget, and prejudice (or
accumulated wisdom, as some prefer to call it). Oh, and engineering
judgement - but not fancy colours or go-faster stripes.

I'm actually put off of Hitachi because of the Dan Dare design. I
understand that they are extreemly good tools, but they just look plain
silly to me.

Bells & whistles seem to be the favourite way of adding value to cheapo
power tools. Lasers in particular are a bit of a waste of time IMO.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:

I've often said that Makita stuff seems to punch above its weight. I've got
a 860w Makita router that performs better than a 1200w 'shed' own brand, a
950w circular saw that eats 38mm worktop & a 14.4v combi that I reckon would
see off a lot of 18v tools.

I wonder if this is down to the way they quote the figures.

Partly, but I expect that losses in the mechanics of the low end tools
end up eating more of the available motor output power in heat and
vibration. You can easily feel the difference in use in many cases.

When I were in the pressure washer game there were a trade body what laid
down standards for measurement of pressure, flow rate & temperature.

So, I wonder if a Makita 860w is another's 1200w depending on how you
measure it? Perhaps Makita quote the correct figures & others quote
'maximum' figures?

Hard to know... you could for example quote input power (or more
correctly input current) with the chuck stalled. It will give a hogh
sounding figure but no indication of the actual mechanical work the tool
will achieve.

Is there a standard measure?

Not that I am aware of. The only tool maker that routinely seems to
publish input and output figures right across the range is DeWalt. Vis:

http://www.dewalt.co.uk/powertools/p...catno/D21721K/

(On the battery stuff they publish only output power)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23 Mar, 15:30, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

I'm actually put off of Hitachi because of the Dan Dare design.

I wouldn't buy trainers that looked like recent Hitachi.

I don't think I'd buy a games console that looked like recent Hitachi.

Why would I want a drill that looked like a Wasp T-12 SpeechTool ?

Is there a standard measure?

Not that I am aware of. The only tool maker that routinely seems to
publish input and output figures right across the range is DeWalt. Vis:

http://www.dewalt.co.uk/powertools/p...catno/D21721K/

(On the battery stuff they publish only output power)

Presumably they're using a dyno to measure the actual power available
at the tool mounting?

Even that won't be the whole story - what we really want to know is
how well it saws/drills (in our hands, not someone else's) - which
will depend on the quality/concentricity/flexing of the tool (and our
personal skills/style etc) - and in real world conditions.

Best test is still borrow a mates and use it for a hundred cuts/holes
with it.

When it comes to pro tools, they're virtually identical in features
and specs at a particular price point anyway.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Partly, but much more to do with a small privately owned company (GERt
NIelson) being bough by a large conglomerate (Nilfisk Advance).
Managers with no knowledge of the industry, graduates with no knowledge
of anything, short term planning to satisfy shareholders, downsizing
staff who had been there 20+ years. A story as old as time.


Same thing happened to Babel Construction, total lack of communication.


--
Ian White

wrote:

Best test is still borrow a mates and use it for a hundred cuts/holes
with it.

When it comes to pro tools, they're virtually identical in features
and specs at a particular price point anyway.

Yup, use is the only real test that counts. The specs ought (in theory)
give you some clue as to the capabilities in advance of purchase, but
probably only within a class of similar tools.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Andy Hall
saying something like:

Therefore of course a Makita 14.4v product will outperform a generic
18v product.

I have a 7.2V Makita cordless drill that was given to me about 15 years
ago as a pressie. I never used it, thinking it was a bit of a toy and it
got shoved in a cupboard and forgotten about until last year.
It's actually an impressive little tool, the gearing makes the bugger
capable of doing all of the work I ask it to and the build quality is
beyond reproach. I bought a couple of modern NiMH batteries for it and a
proper intelligent Makita charger to keep it company. In fact, I was so
impressed with it I bought another hardly-used one via the Bay for the
grand price of £0.99. Now, armed with my two old Makitas, I can drill
and screw all day long and the cost has been negligable.

Quality counts, in the end. When (if) they finally die, I'll be looking
for replacements in the 14.4V Makita range as they are now dirt cheap
used.
--

Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Ian White
saying something like:

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Partly, but much more to do with a small privately owned company (GERt
NIelson) being bough by a large conglomerate (Nilfisk Advance).
Managers with no knowledge of the industry, graduates with no knowledge
of anything, short term planning to satisfy shareholders, downsizing
staff who had been there 20+ years. A story as old as time.


Same thing happened to Babel Construction, total lack of communication.

Bloody Jerry builders.
--

Dave

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
Autolycus wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
SNIP

So, in the end, it's a matter of judgement: the manufacturers' and the
users', and I really don't think that a single figure, or a set of
figures, or even a couple of graphs, is going to help anyone a great
deal. So we'll carry on as we do now: marketing departments will
insist on quoting implausible and meaningless numbers, and we'll
carry on buying on the basis of hearsay, budget, and prejudice (or
accumulated wisdom, as some prefer to call it). Oh, and engineering
judgement - but not fancy colours or go-faster stripes.

I'm actually put off of Hitachi because of the Dan Dare design. I
understand that they are extreemly good tools, but they just look plain
silly to me.

What strange logic for someone who makes his living using tools. If it is
good and well priced then you get it.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
m...
I've often said that Makita stuff seems to punch above its weight. I've
got a 860w Makita router that performs better than a 1200w 'shed' own
brand, a 950w circular saw that eats 38mm worktop & a 14.4v combi that I
reckon would see off a lot of 18v tools.

I wonder if this is down to the way they quote the figures.

When I were in the pressure washer game there were a trade body what laid
down standards for measurement of pressure, flow rate & temperature.

At one stage I worked for a Danish manufacturer (Gerni) who quoted exact
performance figures for each machine. The standard laid down rules for
where in the pressure could be measured, how it should be measured & the
tolerance allowed. Pressure was +/- 10% and in their brochures Karcher
always used actual test pressure + 10%, whereas Gerni used actual test
pressure - which made the Gerni machines seem less powerful.

Temperature was a bit flexible in how you measured it. Gerni quoted max
temp as 135c because that was what you got at the nozzle, Karcher and all
the others quoted 150c because that was what you could measure at the
machine. The 10 metre pressure hose lost you 15c before the water got to
the nozzle, so the machines produced the same heat.

DIY pressure washers aren't covered by the trade body & the claims are
outrageous. 'Maximum' pressure 120 bar often means 85 bar working and if
it reaches 120 bar the pump head splits!

So, I wonder if a Makita 860w is another's 1200w depending on how you
measure it? Perhaps Makita quote the correct figures & others quote
'maximum' figures?

Is there a standard measure?

I doubt it. There seems to be very few standard measures about. IME the
older or more expensive something is the more likely it is to be somewhere
like it's actual specifications. OTOH the old stuff that I have is bloody
old (Ingersoll Rand compressor that's as old as the hills, B&O, Akai and
Arcam hifi gear, some of it 40 years old - you simply don't see hifis with 5
kilos of aluminium on the front anymore), so then I begin to wonder if the
reason it's still around is because it's the quality stuff of the day, and
that there were a load more people chucking out crap at the same time...

Then again, I had a look around an electrical shop the other day and
couldn't believe some of the guff they sell - they had a "surround sound
system" which consisted of 5 tweeters and a mid / bass driver in a subwoofer
casing. It was blatantly obvious with all the speakers within 3 feet of each
other that only high pitches were coming from the tweeters and all speech
was coming from the subwoofer...