On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:20:20 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-03-16 16:58:57 +0000, Phil Young said:



Yes, finger trouble on my part. That should read 'leadership by
example is collectivism' in that to set the example you must be part of
(by virtue of leading) a group engaged with the same objectives.

I disagree. Nobody suggested anything about a group or a collective
body.



Having a common interest with others in an area in which you are all
working (a specific project possibly, whether as leader or not) is
indeed an example of collectivism.

Not really. It can be individuals with the same opinion on a subject
and nothing more. I don't regard that as collective.


The outcome is dependant on the
collective efforts of those involved working in collaboration. Small
'c' not capital 'C' and the political/economic theory as a whole.

Collaboration is even worse than collectivism.



I also find it ironic that I am contributing to this collective
discussion using a set of tools, including an OS, that is a (AFAIK)
literal text-book example of collectivism, and it seems to be working
fine here. Which rather shoots your 'collectivism never works' fox.

Ever heard of individual contribution?

Certainly I have. However, little in life is the fruit of a single
individuals efforts - saving (some) Art , (some) theoretical sciences.

On the contrary. Most of what is worthwhile in life is the result of
individual effort.



What we really need is a word to describe the collected efforts of a
collection of people working collectively. I wonder what that word
might be ?

What we need is individuals thinking for themselves and taking
responsibility for exerting influence where they are able.




Phil Young

Well, to stop this going on endlessly, we'll just have to agree that our
opinions are different.

Thank you for clarifying your definition of 'collectivism', we might
revisit that the next time you use that particular word.

Phil Young

On 2008-03-17 07:36:42 +0000, Phil Young said:

Well, to stop this going on endlessly, we'll just have to agree that our
opinions are different.

The dictionaries are clear on this point.


Thank you for clarifying your definition of 'collectivism', we might
revisit that the next time you use that particular word.


You're very welcome.

Webster's Disctionary defines it thus:

1: a political or economic theory advocating collective control
especially over production and distribution; also : a system marked by
such control

2: emphasis on collective rather than individual action or identity

The OED defines it as

1 the giving of priority to a group over each individual in it.

2 the ownership of land and the means of production by the people or the state.


Note especially the OED's first definition and Webster's second, which
was precisely my point.

The other definitions simply describe the worst aspects of collectivism.

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:22:00 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

That would be fine, if the local authority were willing to pay me to do
it. They are not. I didn't ask for it to be sorted.

Did you ask to pay taxes, including local taxes? If you did not ask
to pay them, do you still pay them or do you refuse to pay something
you didn't ask for?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 2008-03-17 08:05:57 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:22:00 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

That would be fine, if the local authority were willing to pay me to do
it. They are not. I didn't ask for it to be sorted.

Did you ask to pay taxes, including local taxes? If you did not ask
to pay them, do you still pay them or do you refuse to pay something
you didn't ask for?

As you know, there is no individual discretion on whether or not to pay
local taxes or the amount.

I pay my taxes and in return expect to receive a range of services.
Those include removal of rubbish from my premises. For reasons best
known to themselves and to EU Directives they claim that they are
supposed to do some form of recycling. That's a matter for them, and
how they do it is up to them. If they choose to sort it, they are at
liberty to do so once they have collected it from me. I don't wish or
intend to do the work that I have already paid them to do.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:58:01 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

Did you ask to pay taxes, including local taxes? If you did not ask
to pay them, do you still pay them or do you refuse to pay something
you didn't ask for?

As you know, there is no individual discretion on whether or not to pay
local taxes or the amount.

I pay my taxes and in return expect to receive a range of services.

What services you receive if any and what form they take is not
something decided by you, though you are able to try and influence
these decisions.

Those include removal of rubbish from my premises. For reasons best
known to themselves and to EU Directives they claim that they are
supposed to do some form of recycling.

What the EU obliges them to do is not put everything into landfill.
Rather they are to reduce the amount of stuff going into landfill
and the landfill tax is an expression of this policy. Recycling is
part of this, but not the only part. There is nothing
anti-democratic about this, it was agreed by the usual EU
mechanisms. I suspect that in this particular case this involved
unanimous agreement by the states, including the UK.

That's a matter for them, and how they do it is up to them.

Indeed. One of the ways they can do this is to ask, so far they have
not compelled, householders to help. Glad you agree with me.

If they choose to sort it, they are at
liberty to do so once they have collected it from me.

See my first point.

I don't wish or intend to do the work that I have already paid them to do.

You assertion that you have already paid them to do something is
incorrect. See also my first point.

You may have the last word.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 2008-03-17 09:34:49 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:58:01 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

Did you ask to pay taxes, including local taxes? If you did not ask
to pay them, do you still pay them or do you refuse to pay something
you didn't ask for?

As you know, there is no individual discretion on whether or not to pay
local taxes or the amount.

I pay my taxes and in return expect to receive a range of services.

What services you receive if any and what form they take is not
something decided by you, though you are able to try and influence
these decisions.

Indeed, and believe me I will, if and when the time comes.



Those include removal of rubbish from my premises. For reasons best
known to themselves and to EU Directives they claim that they are
supposed to do some form of recycling.

What the EU obliges them to do is not put everything into landfill.
Rather they are to reduce the amount of stuff going into landfill
and the landfill tax is an expression of this policy. Recycling is
part of this, but not the only part. There is nothing
anti-democratic about this, it was agreed by the usual EU
mechanisms. I suspect that in this particular case this involved
unanimous agreement by the states, including the UK.

The EU is noweher close to being democratic.



That's a matter for them, and how they do it is up to them.

Indeed. One of the ways they can do this is to ask, so far they have
not compelled, householders to help. Glad you agree with me.

If they choose to sort it, they are at
liberty to do so once they have collected it from me.

See my first point.

I don't wish or intend to do the work that I have already paid them to do.

You assertion that you have already paid them to do something is
incorrect. See also my first point.


It is correct. You are losing track of who is the supplier and who is
the customer.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-17 09:34:49 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:58:01 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

Did you ask to pay taxes, including local taxes? If you did not ask
to pay them, do you still pay them or do you refuse to pay something
you didn't ask for?

As you know, there is no individual discretion on whether or not to pay
local taxes or the amount.

I pay my taxes and in return expect to receive a range of services.

What services you receive if any and what form they take is not
something decided by you, though you are able to try and influence
these decisions.

Indeed, and believe me I will, if and when the time comes.



Those include removal of rubbish from my premises. For reasons best
known to themselves and to EU Directives they claim that they are
supposed to do some form of recycling.

What the EU obliges them to do is not put everything into landfill.
Rather they are to reduce the amount of stuff going into landfill
and the landfill tax is an expression of this policy. Recycling is
part of this, but not the only part. There is nothing
anti-democratic about this, it was agreed by the usual EU
mechanisms. I suspect that in this particular case this involved
unanimous agreement by the states, including the UK.

The EU is noweher close to being democratic.



That's a matter for them, and how they do it is up to them.

Indeed. One of the ways they can do this is to ask, so far they have
not compelled, householders to help. Glad you agree with me.

If they choose to sort it, they are at
liberty to do so once they have collected it from me.

See my first point.

I don't wish or intend to do the work that I have already paid them
to do.

You assertion that you have already paid them to do something is
incorrect. See also my first point.


It is correct. You are losing track of who is the supplier and who is
the customer.



You and your free market! Haven't you spotted its limitations in the
financial news? The guys in red braces will always cut and run when the
going gets tough.

Do you really think you're a customer of local government in any
meaningful sense of the word? Dream on.
If they are saddled with silly regulations regarding recycling, they
will either ask you to help them out by spending 10 seconds of your time
putting things in separate bins, or they'll charge you the going rate
for being an awkward sod. Bleating about having already paid them to do
a job with no regard to the mobile goalposts is faintly ridiculous.

On 2008-03-17 12:14:32 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

You and your free market! Haven't you spotted its limitations in the
financial news? The guys in red braces will always cut and run when the
going gets tough.

Of course. I have no control over and no interest in them.


Do you really think you're a customer of local government in any
meaningful sense of the word? Dream on.

I don't for a moment. However, I do believe that they need to be
subjected to maximum exposure and scrutiny. I liken local government
to a collection of woodlice. They do nothing worthwhile and scurry
away when exposed to the light of day. Most have not done a proper
day's work in their lives and simply time serve waiting for their final
salary pensions.



If they are saddled with silly regulations regarding recycling, they
will either ask you to help them out by spending 10 seconds of your
time putting things in separate bins, or they'll charge you the going
rate for being an awkward sod. Bleating about having already paid them
to do a job with no regard to the mobile goalposts is faintly
ridiculous.

So let's analyse this.

Saddled with silly regulations: One needs to examine the source
of these and to do something about it.

Help them out: Absolutely no way. If they want to be helped out,
let them get off of their backsides and do some work rather than hiring
management consultants to do it for them and so that they don't have to
tak e responsibility.

If they would like to come to me with a financial proposal whereby they
do this extra work, I'll look at it. In the meantime, all of the
rubbish goes into the same bin and will continue to do so.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-17 12:14:32 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

You and your free market! Haven't you spotted its limitations in the
financial news? The guys in red braces will always cut and run when
the going gets tough.

Of course. I have no control over and no interest in them.

But you did suggest that Northern Rock should be allowed to go to the
wall after playing fast and loose with people's savings

If they would like to come to me with a financial proposal whereby they
do this extra work, I'll look at it. In the meantime, all of the
rubbish goes into the same bin and will continue to do so.



The whole point is that no one apart from you can ever do this work.
Only you can put your beer cans and half eaten kebabs in different bins.
Once they're jumbled up the job becomes impossible. It's a bit like
being handed a ball of string the cat's been playing with.

On 2008-03-17 16:34:49 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-17 12:14:32 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

You and your free market! Haven't you spotted its limitations in the
financial news? The guys in red braces will always cut and run when the
going gets tough.

Of course. I have no control over and no interest in them.

But you did suggest that Northern Rock should be allowed to go to the
wall after playing fast and loose with people's savings

I did, and so they should have done.



If they would like to come to me with a financial proposal whereby they
do this extra work, I'll look at it. In the meantime, all of the
rubbish goes into the same bin and will continue to do so.



The whole point is that no one apart from you can ever do this work.
Only you can put your beer cans and half eaten kebabs in different
bins. Once they're jumbled up the job becomes impossible. It's a bit
like being handed a ball of string the cat's been playing with.

OK. If you are saying that this is the *only* way, (which I don't
believe, but we'll accept it for now), it follows that this has value
to the local authority. I will await their financial proposal with
interest. However, my hourly rate is high and they may prefer to do
the work when they see my quote.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-17 16:34:49 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-17 12:14:32 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

You and your free market! Haven't you spotted its limitations in the
financial news? The guys in red braces will always cut and run when
the going gets tough.

Of course. I have no control over and no interest in them.

But you did suggest that Northern Rock should be allowed to go to the
wall after playing fast and loose with people's savings

I did, and so they should have done.

But your bank might have been next. I'd have certainly been withdrawing
my stash from Coutts.


If they would like to come to me with a financial proposal whereby
they do this extra work, I'll look at it. In the meantime, all of
the rubbish goes into the same bin and will continue to do so.



The whole point is that no one apart from you can ever do this work.
Only you can put your beer cans and half eaten kebabs in different
bins. Once they're jumbled up the job becomes impossible. It's a bit
like being handed a ball of string the cat's been playing with.

OK. If you are saying that this is the *only* way, (which I don't
believe, but we'll accept it for now), it follows that this has value to
the local authority. I will await their financial proposal with
interest. However, my hourly rate is high and they may prefer to do
the work when they see my quote.

My hourly rate is much higher than yours, and I shall be invoicing the
council for the time it takes to transport the bin to the perimeter of
my not inconsiderable estate.

On 2008-03-17 18:32:22 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-17 16:34:49 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-17 12:14:32 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

You and your free market! Haven't you spotted its limitations in the
financial news? The guys in red braces will always cut and run when the
going gets tough.

Of course. I have no control over and no interest in them.

But you did suggest that Northern Rock should be allowed to go to the
wall after playing fast and loose with people's savings

I did, and so they should have done.

But your bank might have been next. I'd have certainly been withdrawing
my stash from Coutts.

Bank, singular. Eggs, basket, unity -- Fool



If they would like to come to me with a financial proposal whereby they
do this extra work, I'll look at it. In the meantime, all of the
rubbish goes into the same bin and will continue to do so.



The whole point is that no one apart from you can ever do this work.
Only you can put your beer cans and half eaten kebabs in different
bins. Once they're jumbled up the job becomes impossible. It's a bit
like being handed a ball of string the cat's been playing with.

OK. If you are saying that this is the *only* way, (which I don't
believe, but we'll accept it for now), it follows that this has value
to the local authority. I will await their financial proposal with
interest. However, my hourly rate is high and they may prefer to do
the work when they see my quote.

My hourly rate is much higher than yours, and I shall be invoicing the
council for the time it takes to transport the bin to the perimeter of
my not inconsiderable estate.

That's what I like to hear.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Stuart Noble wrote:
Sorting household rubbish is only practical at source. As yet no
sub-species has evolved that is prepared to do it once it's jumbled up

It could be done as community service for petty criminals.

Now *that's* an idea I like!