"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 23:25:29 +0000 someone who may be Dave
wrote this:-

However, they put their own bins out regularly. It is simple enough,
as I said the same day each week. What varies is which bin(s) which
are put out.

No! It is not as simple as you state.

When you have a Bank holiday on a Monday,

The fact that the banks have decided to go on holiday does not mean
the rest of us have. Rather people keep the traditional local
holidays.

collection slips a day, not a lot of people know that.

Anybody who "knows" that would be making a fool of themselves. I
have no idea what arrangements the council make to cover holidays
(and I can't be bothered to look them up), but I do know that
whatever they do does not affect the collections of those of us
whose day later in the week.

It does everywhere I have ever lived. All the days go back one day(assuming
one bank holiday) and Fridays is done on Saturday. The following Monday is
then back to normal. How else would they do it?


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

In uk.d-i-y, Dave wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
It is simple enough,
as I said the same day each week. What varies is which bin(s) which
are put out.

No! It is not as simple as you state.

When you have a Bank holiday on a Monday, collection slips a day, not a
lot of people know that.

Not here it doesn't.

Which further goes to show it's not that simple.

--
Mike Barnes

David Hansen wrote:
On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:09:51 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Perhaps you can teach my partner to get up from her enforced lying
position to get the various components of our rubbish stream into the
correct bins? Perhaps you will teach her to be strong enough to carry
the various bins to the pick up points?

To be convincing your argument would need to explain how a system
with a single bin into which all waste is put would be better for
your partner.




She can usually manage to push a single wheelie bin from its normal
location to the pick up point. She cannot manage that with the box-type
containers supplied for other waste.

Given the former weekly collection, failure to put out was not followed
by another fortnight before things are collected. The fortnight wait now
feels like a "fine" or "punishment" for being unable to manage to do
what has been imposed.

She simply cannot manage always to get the right stuff into the right
container **at the time she wants to chuck stuff out**. She cannot
always manage going out to put stuff into the appropriate alternate bins
and it is difficult to see how we could satisfactorily manage four
separate bins in our kitchen. Further, she could not carry the full bins
from the kitchen out as needed.

Anyway, I really do not see why I should have to convince you by
argument rather than you accept my assertion that some people have
problems with the system as it now exists here.
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod (Rod ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

She can usually manage to push a single wheelie bin from its normal
location to the pick up point. She cannot manage that with the box-type
containers supplied for other waste.

So buy her one of these.
http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=121237

Or do it yourself, you idle git.

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:35:26 -0000 someone who may be "Bob Mannix"
wrote this:-

collection slips a day, not a lot of people know that.

Anybody who "knows" that would be making a fool of themselves. I
have no idea what arrangements the council make to cover holidays
(and I can't be bothered to look them up), but I do know that
whatever they do does not affect the collections of those of us
whose day later in the week.

It does everywhere I have ever lived. All the days go back one day(assuming
one bank holiday) and Fridays is done on Saturday. The following Monday is
then back to normal. How else would they do it?

No idea and I can't be bothered to look it up to find out how they
do it. However, I can tell you that my bins will be collected on the
normal day during the week after Easter. Those bins to be collected
will be the normal pattern (as it happens it will be the residual
waste and garden waste bins).

If other councils are more disorganised then that is for electors to
pester their councillors about in that area.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Adrian wrote:
Rod (Rod ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

She can usually manage to push a single wheelie bin from its normal
location to the pick up point. She cannot manage that with the box-type
containers supplied for other waste.

So buy her one of these.
http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=121237

Or do it yourself, you idle git.

Thanks for that suggestion. The trolley would not work for her. We have
something similar. We have tried.

And when I am not around... ?
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:07:25 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Perhaps you can teach my partner to get up from her enforced lying
position to get the various components of our rubbish stream into the
correct bins? Perhaps you will teach her to be strong enough to carry
the various bins to the pick up points?

To be convincing your argument would need to explain how a system
with a single bin into which all waste is put would be better for
your partner.

She can usually manage to push a single wheelie bin from its normal
location to the pick up point. She cannot manage that with the box-type
containers supplied for other waste.

So, the complaint is actually about the type of container.

Given the former weekly collection, failure to put out was not followed
by another fortnight before things are collected. The fortnight wait now
feels like a "fine" or "punishment" for being unable to manage to do
what has been imposed.

Do you both put into practice the tips outlined in
http://www.sort-it.org.uk, in particular the tips under the
headings of "Reduce" and "Reuse"? If you do there should be very
little in your residual waste bin.

Did you feel that the council was wrong in imposing a particular
collection day before, when everything went in one bin? Surely
people should be able to put bins out on whatever day suits them? A
uniformed member of the council staff will then appear within half
an hour to remove the bin and salute the poll tax payer in the
process.

She simply cannot manage always to get the right stuff into the right
container **at the time she wants to chuck stuff out**.

To be convincing you need to explain how putting things into several
bins is more unmanageable than putting the same things into one bin.
Are the several bins scattered all over the place so that it is an
expedition to get from one to the other?

She cannot
always manage going out to put stuff into the appropriate alternate bins

See my comment above.

and it is difficult to see how we could satisfactorily manage four
separate bins in our kitchen.

That rather depends on the size of the bins. If they are a quarter
the size of your existing bin that would be different to if they are
all the same size as your existing bin.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=recycling+bin&btnG=Google+Search&me ta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB
produced, as the first hit for me, http://www.homerecycling.co.uk
which offer a variety of bins which may be suitable
http://www.homerecycling.co.uk/catalogue.php?category_id=1,
http://www.homerecycling.co.uk/catalogue.php?category_id=2 and
http://www.homerecycling.co.uk/catalogue.php?category_id=3. Other
suppliers offer products too.

Further, she could not carry the full bins from the kitchen out as needed.

That assumes that the bins are the same size as your existing bin
and are only taken out when full.

Assuming, for ease of discussion, that the current waste can be
split equally into four sets. With four bins each a quarter of the
size of the current bin then the bins would be taken outside at the
same frequency as today. This then has the advantage of flexibility.
If the problem is the size/weight of the current bin then one or two
buns can be taken out at a time, exchanging one trip with a
large/heavy bin for two or four trips with lighter smaller bin(s).
If the problem is the number of trips then some of the
multi-compartment bins can be taken out together. The number of
trips is the same as now and the bin only a bit heavier.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

The message
from "Bob Mannix" contains these words:

It does everywhere I have ever lived. All the days go back one day(assuming
one bank holiday) and Fridays is done on Saturday. The following Monday is
then back to normal. How else would they do it?

Bradford appear to have got round the problem at least for most of the
time by scheduling collections only on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and
Thursdays.

I am not sure what happens when Xmas is inconveniently situated midweek
and don't much care. It is a rare month when my wheelie bin* goes out
more than once and I cope with missing the odd fortnightly recycled box
collection.

*Bradford still has weekly collections for general waste, bizarrely in
green wheelie bins. In some parts of the area grey wheelie bins are used
for recyclables but where I live recyclable go out in a green plastic
box which is collected by a commercial organisation.

--
Roger Chapman

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:54:52 +0000 someone who may be Owain
wrote this:-

Which they then mix up together and use for road surfacing.

Some recycled glass does indeed go into road surfacings. If it is
contaminated glass which cannot be used for other purposes that is
fine.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 23:25:29 +0000 someone who may be Dave
wrote this:-


However, they put their own bins out regularly. It is simple enough,
as I said the same day each week. What varies is which bin(s) which
are put out.

No! It is not as simple as you state.

When you have a Bank holiday on a Monday,


The fact that the banks have decided to go on holiday does not mean
the rest of us have. Rather people keep the traditional local
holidays.

Most councils do keep bank holidays though. Ours do.

collection slips a day, not a lot of people know that.


Anybody who "knows" that would be making a fool of themselves. I
have no idea what arrangements the council make to cover holidays
(and I can't be bothered to look them up), but I do know that
whatever they do does not affect the collections of those of us
whose day later in the week.

If you can re write that in English, I might be able to comment.


Dave

David Hansen wrote:

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:35:26 -0000 someone who may be "Bob Mannix"
wrote this:-


collection slips a day, not a lot of people know that.

Anybody who "knows" that would be making a fool of themselves. I
have no idea what arrangements the council make to cover holidays
(and I can't be bothered to look them up), but I do know that
whatever they do does not affect the collections of those of us
whose day later in the week.

It does everywhere I have ever lived. All the days go back one day(assuming
one bank holiday) and Fridays is done on Saturday. The following Monday is
then back to normal. How else would they do it?


No idea and I can't be bothered to look it up to find out how they
do it. However, I can tell you that my bins will be collected on the
normal day during the week after Easter.

So if your collection day was a Monday, you would expect council workers
to be working on one of the days that you have off? Such as Easter
Monday, Spring Bank Monday, May Day Monday, August Bank holiday Monday
and if Christmas day and New years day fell on a Monday, those as well?

Dave

David Hansen wrote:

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:07:25 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-


Perhaps you can teach my partner to get up from her enforced lying
position to get the various components of our rubbish stream into the
correct bins? Perhaps you will teach her to be strong enough to carry
the various bins to the pick up points?

To be convincing your argument would need to explain how a system
with a single bin into which all waste is put would be better for
your partner.

You have to ask if she has full use of her legs for starters. And does
her partner work nights and gets home after the rubbish collection time.

She can usually manage to push a single wheelie bin from its normal
location to the pick up point. She cannot manage that with the box-type
containers supplied for other waste.


So, the complaint is actually about the type of container.

No, you miss the point once again. His partner is incapable of moving
the waste.

I have a similar problem in that I am rarely up when the collection
takes place. By council rules, I am not allowed to put the bags out the
night before. Why should the council dictate what time I should get out
of bed?


Given the former weekly collection, failure to put out was not followed
by another fortnight before things are collected. The fortnight wait now
feels like a "fine" or "punishment" for being unable to manage to do
what has been imposed.


Do you both put into practice the tips outlined in
http://www.sort-it.org.uk, in particular the tips under the
headings of "Reduce" and "Reuse"? If you do there should be very
little in your residual waste bin.

Depending on how you live and I don't think this govment has any ruling
on this yet, you can live on ready foods that will pack your non
reusable bags to perfection. Food containers are not re cyclable

Did you feel that the council was wrong in imposing a particular
collection day before, when everything went in one bin?

Does the council work for us? Or do we work for the council?
i.e. Who pays whose wages?

snip

and it is difficult to see how we could satisfactorily manage four
separate bins in our kitchen.

This is the time to charge councils ground rent for the bins :-)
This could get serious though

That rather depends on the size of the bins. If they are a quarter
the size of your existing bin that would be different to if they are
all the same size as your existing bin.

Further, she could not carry the full bins from the kitchen out as needed.


That assumes that the bins are the same size as your existing bin
and are only taken out when full.

No it doesn't.

Assuming, for ease of discussion, that the current waste can be
split equally into four sets.

In a very small kitchen, just how can you have 3 other bins to separate
the waste? I struggle with one.
With four bins each a quarter of the
size of the current bin then the bins would be taken outside at the
same frequency as today. This then has the advantage of flexibility.
If the problem is the size/weight of the current bin then one or two
buns can be taken out at a time, exchanging one trip with a
large/heavy bin for two or four trips with lighter smaller bin(s).
If the problem is the number of trips then some of the
multi-compartment bins can be taken out together. The number of
trips is the same as now and the bin only a bit heavier.

You are obviously healthy.

Dave wrote:
David Hansen wrote:

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:07:25 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-


Perhaps you can teach my partner to get up from her enforced lying
position to get the various components of our rubbish stream into
the correct bins? Perhaps you will teach her to be strong enough to
carry the various bins to the pick up points?

To be convincing your argument would need to explain how a system
with a single bin into which all waste is put would be better for
your partner.

You have to ask if she has full use of her legs for starters. And does
her partner work nights and gets home after the rubbish collection time.

She can usually manage to push a single wheelie bin from its normal
location to the pick up point. She cannot manage that with the
box-type containers supplied for other waste.


So, the complaint is actually about the type of container.

No, you miss the point once again. His partner is incapable of moving
the waste.

I have a similar problem in that I am rarely up when the collection
takes place. By council rules, I am not allowed to put the bags out the
night before. Why should the council dictate what time I should get out
of bed?


Given the former weekly collection, failure to put out was not
followed by another fortnight before things are collected. The
fortnight wait now feels like a "fine" or "punishment" for being
unable to manage to do what has been imposed.


Do you both put into practice the tips outlined in
http://www.sort-it.org.uk, in particular the tips under the
headings of "Reduce" and "Reuse"? If you do there should be very
little in your residual waste bin.

Depending on how you live and I don't think this govment has any ruling
on this yet, you can live on ready foods that will pack your non
reusable bags to perfection. Food containers are not re cyclable

Did you feel that the council was wrong in imposing a particular
collection day before, when everything went in one bin?

Does the council work for us? Or do we work for the council?
i.e. Who pays whose wages?

snip

and it is difficult to see how we could satisfactorily manage four
separate bins in our kitchen.

This is the time to charge councils ground rent for the bins :-)
This could get serious though

That rather depends on the size of the bins. If they are a quarter
the size of your existing bin that would be different to if they are
all the same size as your existing bin.

Further, she could not carry the full bins from the kitchen out as
needed.


That assumes that the bins are the same size as your existing bin
and are only taken out when full.

No it doesn't.

Assuming, for ease of discussion, that the current waste can be
split equally into four sets.

In a very small kitchen, just how can you have 3 other bins to separate
the waste? I struggle with one.
With four bins each a quarter of the
size of the current bin then the bins would be taken outside at the
same frequency as today. This then has the advantage of flexibility.
If the problem is the size/weight of the current bin then one or two
buns can be taken out at a time, exchanging one trip with a
large/heavy bin for two or four trips with lighter smaller bin(s).
If the problem is the number of trips then some of the
multi-compartment bins can be taken out together. The number of
trips is the same as now and the bin only a bit heavier.

You are obviously healthy.

Thank you Dave.

We manage. We think that we conform to the recycling rules better than
most others in our area. Obviously your need to post Google links
overcame you. That they are necessary (in your opinion) clearly
demonstrates that the whole process is not simple.

Does she have full use of her legs? No. But how far from 100% varies
minute by minute.

Carrying four bins (one at a time) requires twice the walking. If that
is the problem...

Carrying any bins requires sufficient strength in hands, arms,
shoulders, back and hips - as well as working legs.

Ability to cook a meal also varies.

Why the hell should we have to buy a trolley?

I do not feel the need to explain in detail to you every aspect of the
difficulties that we face regarding our rubbish stream. All I was really
trying to do was point out that some of us have difficulty in conforming
to the new regime. The new regime is not simple. The bins supplied by
the council do not work for us - why should we have to buy our own?

I do not believe that you can possibly know or understand partner's
difficulties. Unless you are going to offer to help her, just give up.
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Mark wrote:
Andy Hall wrote in message
news:47d8484b@qaanaaq...
On 2008-03-12 12:22:28 +0000, "Mark" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:47d73388@qaanaaq...
This is in East Sussex were fly tipping is a real problem on
rural roads.


So how does this bureaucratic nonsense solve that problem?


It doesn't solve the fly tipping problem at all, in fact its
undoubtedly party to blame.
So what would your un-bureaucratic solution to fly tipping be.


Simple. Make it easier, not harder for people to dispose of their
rubbish in the correct place.


Oh yes that's an easy answer, how would that work in reality?



Carrot rather than stick. The concept worked well with refunds on
bottles and certain other items, therefore incentivise people in
order to drive particular behaviour.


Wonderful Nulaber gobbedspeak
quite how you would "incentivise" lazy bastuard people who would
rather dump their waste in a hedgerow halfway to the tip and are too
tight to hire a skip still remains a mystery to me.
If you really have a feasible idea I would love to hear it.


I gawped at a cable TV programme last night which focused upon scrapping
products such as cars and fridges in Newport (S Wales). Amazed me and deeply
sceptical that fridges contain about 20kg. of steel (IIRC) however the scrap
has a high worldwide value. Develop a mechanism such that folk are given a
£1 for a fridge or freezer deposited at a recycling point?

Do what various states in the US did - cents for returning pop bottles. Do
what Germany did (or was it Denmark?) in requiring booze to be in refundable
bottles only, not plastic or cans? How about we recognise that bottled water
is a fashion statement that has an impact upon the planet and make it a
requirement that bottled water may only be marketed in glass bottles that
have a deposit?

I've seen septa and octagenarians in China fighting over waste plastic
bottles in the street (in the middle of Beijing close to Tiananmen Sq) due
to the value of waste plastic.

Demolition rubble has a value as crushed material. Develop a mechanism that
rewards folk for taking such material to a recycling centre rather than fly
tipping?

Rod wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 23:25:29 +0000 someone who may be Dave
wrote this:-

However, they put their own bins out regularly. It is simple
enough, as I said the same day each week. What varies is which
bin(s) which are put out.
No! It is not as simple as you state.

When you have a Bank holiday on a Monday,

The fact that the banks have decided to go on holiday does not mean
the rest of us have. Rather people keep the traditional local
holidays.

collection slips a day, not a lot of people know that.

Anybody who "knows" that would be making a fool of themselves. I
have no idea what arrangements the council make to cover holidays
(and I can't be bothered to look them up), but I do know that
whatever they do does not affect the collections of those of us
whose day later in the week.

When you come to Easter weekend, the collection slips 2 days.


See my comment above.

Your collection system seems to be different to the majority of those
I have experienced (in England, Wales and Scotland).

I concur with Dave. Bank holidays cause problems. I *think* that some
BHs cause the rest of the week to be shifted back a day while others
do not. But I would have to look it up. Christmas and Easter are
always different.

It is simply not possible to predict accurately when the various
collections will be made from any formula/rules - you have to refer to
the web site/documents.

It is also complicated by things like working away from home (even
just the odd day), holidays, and even councils (at least threatening)
fines for leaving bins out beyond the absolute minimum time required
for collection.

I have to agree. Fortunately I'm fit and mobile so that I ensure that I take
my wastes to the local centres such as Tosca where (until recently) glass
colours were kept separate and I didn't have to second guess when the
relevant collections would be made.

I have a concern as to where Tosca's collections do go, but their commercial
incentive makes me favour their collection sites rather than the LA.

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:53:08 +0000 someone who may be Dave
wrote this:-

So, the complaint is actually about the type of container.

No, you miss the point once again. His partner is incapable of moving
the waste.

Then she is unable to do so no matter how many containers it is in.

However, I cannot think of a condition where moving a quarter of the
waste (as in my simplified example) is harder then moving all of it,
though it will require more trips.

Next.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen (David Hansen ) gurgled
happily, sounding much like they were saying:

So, the complaint is actually about the type of container.

No, you miss the point once again. His partner is incapable of moving
the waste.

Then she is unable to do so no matter how many containers it is in.

However, I cannot think of a condition where moving a quarter of the
waste (as in my simplified example) is harder then moving all of it,
though it will require more trips.

The example given was quite explicit that she can move the wheelybin but
not the boxes.

I can certainly see how that could be the case - SWMBO gets me to shift
the boxes, too, because they aren't as easy as tilt-and-dragging the
wheely.

However, I don't quite see how she could manage the wheelybin but not a
sacktrolley with the recycling on.

Adrian wrote:
David Hansen (David Hansen ) gurgled
happily, sounding much like they were saying:

So, the complaint is actually about the type of container.

No, you miss the point once again. His partner is incapable of moving
the waste.

Then she is unable to do so no matter how many containers it is in.

However, I cannot think of a condition where moving a quarter of the
waste (as in my simplified example) is harder then moving all of it,
though it will require more trips.

The example given was quite explicit that she can move the wheelybin but
not the boxes.

I can certainly see how that could be the case - SWMBO gets me to shift
the boxes, too, because they aren't as easy as tilt-and-dragging the
wheely.

However, I don't quite see how she could manage the wheelybin but not a
sacktrolley with the recycling on.

I assure you it is the case. I cannot explain why - nor can the dozen or
so consultants...

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod (Rod ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

However, I don't quite see how she could manage the wheelybin but not a
sacktrolley with the recycling on.

I assure you it is the case. I cannot explain why - nor can the dozen or
so consultants...

That's easy to explain. She's female. Putting the bins out is therefore
your job, and she's buggered if she's going to do it... grin

Adrian wrote:
Rod (Rod ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

However, I don't quite see how she could manage the wheelybin but not a
sacktrolley with the recycling on.

I assure you it is the case. I cannot explain why - nor can the dozen or
so consultants...

That's easy to explain. She's female. Putting the bins out is therefore
your job, and she's buggered if she's going to do it... grin

Accepted as meant. :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:32:49 UTC, Rod wrote:

Adrian wrote:
Rod (Rod ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

However, I don't quite see how she could manage the wheelybin but not a
sacktrolley with the recycling on.

I assure you it is the case. I cannot explain why - nor can the dozen or
so consultants...

That's easy to explain. She's female. Putting the bins out is therefore
your job, and she's buggered if she's going to do it... grin

Accepted as meant. :-)

Actually, the title of this thread (on a lighter note from the deadly
serious, humourless Hansen and Fisher) reminds me of that piece in the
Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy on the planet where it was vital to
get a receipt when you went to the toilet...! :-)

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 2008-03-14 07:27:02 +0000, Phil Young said:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:05:29 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

However, on occasions one has to demonstrate leadership

One certainly does.

Do let us know if you ever give it a try. Especially if you aspire to
leadership in a non-collective context.


Leadership doesn't have to imply collectivism.

One can show by example, and other individuals can make up their own
minds. A far better form of leadership than if they follow,
collectively as a herd of sheep.

On 2008-03-14 07:58:59 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:08:11 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

My bins are collected on the same day every week. Which bin is to be
collected (up to eight weeks ahead) can be looked up on the web. It
is neither hard or complex and even elderly slightly confused people
manage it.

If they have the time to waste.

What wasted time is that? Bins a recollected on the same day each
week. If I can't remember which bin is coming up this week then I
can look it up in a matter of a second or two.

Having to sort out the various bits and pieces into different
containers with different rules and different collection arrangements.

Ah I see. So it was a swerve, from the "time wasted" putting one bin
out to the "time wasted" sorting things into the right containers.

Either way it's a waste of time.



There is no time wasted doing this sorting, provided one is
organised. Holding the item in one's hand it is just a matter of
putting it in the right container. I occasionally give talks to
adults with learning difficulties and they manage that easily, so
I'm sure others can.

Do you also give lectures to people about doing jobs that others are
paid to do?




A complete waste of time because there is no value in the outcome.

There is a great deal of value in the outcome, not the least that
uncontaminated material streams attract higher prices than ones
which have been contaminated by being mixed with other materials.

The value does not o to the person making the disposal. Unless the
material is of relatively high value such as certain metals, then there
is no point.



The correct solution is for the organisation arranging the collection
to do the job that they are being paid to do.

As I have said before, if you wish to pay extra for someone to do
this sorting for you then you can do so.

No, I wish the council to do the job that they are paid to do, and that
is to dispose of the rubbish. I don't expect to do half of their work.

However, such alternative
collections have been launched in a blaze of publicity in places yet
not attracted large numbers of customers.

The public seem happy
enough with the services councils provide.

You must be joking. As soon as there is any suggestionof reduction in
frequency of collection, there is uproar.

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:34:44 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Adrian
wrote this:-

The example given was quite explicit that she can move the wheelybin but
not the boxes.

As I said some messages ago, "So, the complaint is actually about
the type of container."


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 15 Mar 2008 11:49:18 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

Actually, the title of this thread (on a lighter note from the deadly
serious, humourless Hansen and Fisher)

Excellent, rudeness and personal attacks. Do keep it up.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:52:08 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

You must be joking. As soon as there is any suggestionof reduction in
frequency of collection, there is uproar.

There was no uproar here when the frequency of residual waste
collections was reduced.

Someone did try and make out in the local newspaper that this
reduction had led to maggots. However, the next week someone pointed
out that at the time the picture had been taken the street concerned
still had weekly residual waste collections.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:02:05 UTC, David Hansen
wrote:

On 15 Mar 2008 11:49:18 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

Actually, the title of this thread (on a lighter note from the deadly
serious, humourless Hansen and Fisher)

Excellent, rudeness and personal attacks. Do keep it up.

Not at all. Merely what I consider an accurate observation.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 2008-03-16 09:06:37 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:52:08 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

You must be joking. As soon as there is any suggestionof reduction in
frequency of collection, there is uproar.

There was no uproar here when the frequency of residual waste
collections was reduced.

Why doesn't that surprise me.

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:44:54 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:


Leadership doesn't have to imply collectivism.

One can show by example, and other individuals can make up their own
minds. A far better form of leadership than if they follow,
collectively as a herd of sheep.

And a still better form of leadership is if they follow because they
decide to follow your example - rather difficult if you are not engaged in
the activity. 'Walking the walk rather than talking the talk'.

If you are showing (or leading) by example, your example must be in the
sphere of activity that those you claim leadership of are engaged in.
Unless you are working against their interests, or the common interest,
leadership by example is, and must be, collective.

Perhaps you meant leadership by exhortation.

In the current context, if you are claiming to lead by example by
encouraging others to sign a petition that you know to be futile, there
are several possibilities.

Firstly, you have signed, and are indeed leading by example. However you
claimm the act of signing is futile and are hence a nihilist.

Alternatively, you have not signed yourself and are leading by
exhortation, not example as you claim, and you are at best a sophist.

Since you are decrying collectivism on a medium that depends on
collectivism, and are claiming some level on leadership on a mediuim that
admits none, perhaps we should add absurdist to the list.

Perhaps you are a Performance Artist. Or Management Consultant.

Oh dear.

I also find it ironic that I am contributing to this collective discussion
using a set of tools, including an OS, that is a (AFAIK) literal text-book
example of collectivism, and it seems to be working fine here. Which
rather shoots your 'collectivism never works' fox.

Phil Young

No, I wish the council to do the job that they are paid to do, and that
is to dispose of the rubbish. I don't expect to do half of their work.


Sorting household rubbish is only practical at source. As yet no
sub-species has evolved that is prepared to do it once it's jumbled up

On 2008-03-16 10:51:59 +0000, Phil Young said:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:44:54 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:


Leadership doesn't have to imply collectivism.

One can show by example, and other individuals can make up their own
minds. A far better form of leadership than if they follow,
collectively as a herd of sheep.

And a still better form of leadership is if they follow because they
decide to follow your example - rather difficult if you are not engaged in
the activity. 'Walking the walk rather than talking the talk'.

If you are showing (or leading) by example, your example must be in the
sphere of activity that those you claim leadership of are engaged in.
Unless you are working against their interests, or the common interest,
leadership by example is, and must be, collective.

Leadership by example is by no means collective. Having a common
interest n a specific area is not collectivism. Having one in most or
all areas is.



Perhaps you meant leadership by exhortation.

In the current context, if you are claiming to lead by example by
encouraging others to sign a petition that you know to be futile, there
are several possibilities.


Firstly, you have signed, and are indeed leading by example. However you
claimm the act of signing is futile and are hence a nihilist.

Nihilism is something quite different.


Alternatively, you have not signed yourself and are leading by
exhortation, not example as you claim, and you are at best a sophist.

Since you are decrying collectivism on a medium that depends on
collectivism, and are claiming some level on leadership on a mediuim that
admits none, perhaps we should add absurdist to the list.

Actually the point was not one of signing a petition, but rather of
taking all possible steps available. The scope of that will vary
from person to person.




Perhaps you are a Performance Artist. Or Management Consultant.

Hardly. Those posters of Tiger Woods in the airport make me want to vomit.



Oh dear.

I also find it ironic that I am contributing to this collective discussion
using a set of tools, including an OS, that is a (AFAIK) literal text-book
example of collectivism, and it seems to be working fine here. Which
rather shoots your 'collectivism never works' fox.

Ever heard of individual contribution?

On 2008-03-16 11:15:07 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:


No, I wish the council to do the job that they are paid to do, and that
is to dispose of the rubbish. I don't expect to do half of their work.


Sorting household rubbish is only practical at source.

Actually untrue.


As yet no sub-species has evolved that is prepared to do it once it's
jumbled up

A matter of money?

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-16 11:15:07 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:


No, I wish the council to do the job that they are paid to do, and
that is to dispose of the rubbish. I don't expect to do half of
their work.


Sorting household rubbish is only practical at source.

Actually untrue.

Have you ever had to go through your own rubbish to retrieve anything
you chucked by mistake?



As yet no sub-species has evolved that is prepared to do it once it's
jumbled up

A matter of money?



At any level it's nonsensical for someone to spend time sifting through
your jumbled up rubbish when you could have easily not jumbled it up in
the first place. I wipe my own arse because getting someone in to do it
is just plain silly.

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:03:32 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:



Have you ever had to go through your own rubbish to retrieve anything you
chucked by mistake?



You think Andy has ever made a mistake ?

I'm shocked, shocked I say.

Phil Young

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:11:14 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-03-16 10:51:59 +0000, Phil Young said:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:44:54 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:


Leadership doesn't have to imply collectivism.

One can show by example, and other individuals can make up their own
minds. A far better form of leadership than if they follow,
collectively as a herd of sheep.

And a still better form of leadership is if they follow because they
decide to follow your example - rather difficult if you are not engaged
in the activity. 'Walking the walk rather than talking the talk'.

If you are showing (or leading) by example, your example must be in the
sphere of activity that those you claim leadership of are engaged in.
Unless you are working against their interests, or the common interest,
leadership by example is, and must be, collective.

Leadership by example is by no means collective. Having a common
interest n a specific area is not collectivism. Having one in most or
all areas is.


Yes, finger trouble on my part. That should read 'leadership by example
is collectivism' in that to set the example you must be part of (by virtue
of leading) a group engaged with the same objectives.

Having a common interest with others in an area in which you are
all working (a specific project possibly, whether as leader or not) is
indeed an example of collectivism. The outcome is dependant on the
collective efforts of those involved working in collaboration. Small 'c'
not capital 'C' and the political/economic theory as a whole.



Perhaps you meant leadership by exhortation.

In the current context, if you are claiming to lead by example by
encouraging others to sign a petition that you know to be futile, there
are several possibilities.


Firstly, you have signed, and are indeed leading by example. However
you claimm the act of signing is futile and are hence a nihilist.

Nihilism is something quite different.

I meant it in sense of embracing futility as its own end. Again, not the
entire political/philospohical school of thought.



I also find it ironic that I am contributing to this collective
discussion using a set of tools, including an OS, that is a (AFAIK)
literal text-book example of collectivism, and it seems to be working
fine here. Which rather shoots your 'collectivism never works' fox.

Ever heard of individual contribution?

Certainly I have. However, little in life is the fruit of a single
individuals efforts - saving (some) Art , (some) theoretical sciences.

What we really need is a word to describe the collected efforts of a
collection of people working collectively. I wonder what that word might
be ?

Phil Young

--
'He had talents equal to business but aspired no higher' - Tacitus

Phil Young wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:03:32 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:


Have you ever had to go through your own rubbish to retrieve anything you
chucked by mistake?



You think Andy has ever made a mistake ?

I'm shocked, shocked I say.

Phil Young

Possibly the initial feasibility study was flawed and remedial action
was deemed necessary

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:54:47 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

Phil Young wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:03:32 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:


Have you ever had to go through your own rubbish to retrieve anything
you chucked by mistake?



You think Andy has ever made a mistake ?

I'm shocked, shocked I say.

Phil Young

Possibly the initial feasibility study was flawed and remedial action was
deemed necessary

But the opportunity cost ! Even through a Credit Vehicle !

Will no-one think of the children ?

Anyway, Windows isn't an OS ! But Intelligent Design could be a Science !

yadda, yadda, yadda for about 999 posts

Phil Young

On 2008-03-16 16:58:57 +0000, Phil Young said:



Yes, finger trouble on my part. That should read 'leadership by example
is collectivism' in that to set the example you must be part of (by virtue
of leading) a group engaged with the same objectives.

I disagree. Nobody suggested anything about a group or a collective body.



Having a common interest with others in an area in which you are
all working (a specific project possibly, whether as leader or not) is
indeed an example of collectivism.

Not really. It can be individuals with the same opinion on a subject
and nothing more. I don't regard that as collective.


The outcome is dependant on the
collective efforts of those involved working in collaboration. Small 'c'
not capital 'C' and the political/economic theory as a whole.

Collaboration is even worse than collectivism.



I also find it ironic that I am contributing to this collective
discussion using a set of tools, including an OS, that is a (AFAIK)
literal text-book example of collectivism, and it seems to be working
fine here. Which rather shoots your 'collectivism never works' fox.

Ever heard of individual contribution?

Certainly I have. However, little in life is the fruit of a single
individuals efforts - saving (some) Art , (some) theoretical sciences.

On the contrary. Most of what is worthwhile in life is the result
of individual effort.



What we really need is a word to describe the collected efforts of a
collection of people working collectively. I wonder what that word might
be ?

What we need is individuals thinking for themselves and taking
responsibility for exerting influence where they are able.




Phil Young

On 2008-03-16 15:03:32 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-16 11:15:07 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:


No, I wish the council to do the job that they are paid to do, and that
is to dispose of the rubbish. I don't expect to do half of their work.


Sorting household rubbish is only practical at source.

Actually untrue.

Have you ever had to go through your own rubbish to retrieve anything
you chucked by mistake?

Nope.




As yet no sub-species has evolved that is prepared to do it once it's
jumbled up

A matter of money?



At any level it's nonsensical for someone to spend time sifting through
your jumbled up rubbish when you could have easily not jumbled it up in
the first place.

That would be fine, if the local authority were willing to pay me to do
it. They are not. I didn't ask for it to be sorted.



I wipe my own arse because getting someone in to do it is just plain silly.

That's good to know.

Clot wrote in message
...

Wonderful Nulaber gobbedspeak
quite how you would "incentivise" lazy bastuard people who would
rather dump their waste in a hedgerow halfway to the tip and are too
tight to hire a skip still remains a mystery to me.
If you really have a feasible idea I would love to hear it.


Develop a mechanism such that folk are given a
£1 for a fridge or freezer deposited at a recycling point?

Do what various states in the US did - cents for returning pop bottles. Do
what Germany did (or was it Denmark?) in requiring booze to be in
refundable
bottles only, not plastic or cans? How about we recognise that bottled
water
is a fashion statement that has an impact upon the planet and make it a
requirement that bottled water may only be marketed in glass bottles that
have a deposit?

I've seen septa and octagenarians in China fighting over waste plastic
bottles in the street (in the middle of Beijing close to Tiananmen Sq) due
to the value of waste plastic.

Demolition rubble has a value as crushed material. Develop a mechanism
that
rewards folk for taking such material to a recycling centre rather than
fly
tipping?


You can't possibly think that paying people for the rubbish they deliver to
the tip would be feasible or economic in the UK surely.
But then given your chosen name................



-