Been asked by a BTL landlord to do some work to bring a small terraced house
up to standard.

BCO have specified that the existing door leading to the kitchen should be
fitted with intumescent seals and cold smoke seals.

She assures me that the existing door is a fire door, but I'm getting alarm
bells ringing.

Two reasons; I thought all fire doors should already be fitted with
intumescent seals as standard? And the door doesn't have a self closer of
any sort. I thought that should be standard as well?

How do I know its really a fire door?

Not sure what cold smoke seals are either.

Not a job I want really, given the graphic descriptions from my paramedic
daughter of the 'house fire, persons reported' calls she attends.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Been asked by a BTL landlord to do some work to bring a small
terraced house up to standard.

BCO have specified that the existing door leading to the kitchen
should be fitted with intumescent seals and cold smoke seals.

She assures me that the existing door is a fire door, but I'm getting
alarm bells ringing.

Two reasons; I thought all fire doors should already be fitted with
intumescent seals as standard? And the door doesn't have a self
closer of any sort. I thought that should be standard as well?

Not all "fire" doors are fitted with intumescent seals.

How do I know its really a fire door?

1 - The weight of the damn things - (a good indicator only)
2 - They are usually thicker than a 'standard' door (IIRC)
3 - If they are fitted as fire doors - then the 'planted' doorstops are
usually thicker and screwed rather than nailed on.
4 - Any glass in them will usually be Georgian Wired.
5 - They may have 'hidden' door closures fitted on the hanging side of the
door and into the frame.
6 - when you hit 'em anywhere on the door they feel and sound solid (flush
doors).

Not sure what cold smoke seals are either.

Have a look at http://www.intumescentseals.co.uk/p4.htm

Not a job I want really, given the graphic descriptions from my
paramedic daughter of the 'house fire, persons reported' calls she
attends.

She's quite correct, as an old housing maintence foreman who used to attend
these, the sights are terrible.

"Brian G" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Been asked by a BTL landlord to do some work to bring a small
terraced house up to standard.

BCO have specified that the existing door leading to the kitchen
should be fitted with intumescent seals and cold smoke seals.

She assures me that the existing door is a fire door, but I'm getting
alarm bells ringing.

Two reasons; I thought all fire doors should already be fitted with
intumescent seals as standard? And the door doesn't have a self
closer of any sort. I thought that should be standard as well?

Not all "fire" doors are fitted with intumescent seals.

How do I know its really a fire door?

--------------------------Snipped lots of good
stuff--------------------------------------

Hinges will also need to be fire rated as well. Depending on how old the
door is and whether its been planed down to fit it may have a printed BS
number on top edge. Bloody horrible job especially if single handed trying
to maneuvre these pigs so you can rout the edges for the seals. Asked to
quote for a job not long ago where the Nursing Home proprietor wanted brush
seals fitting after a visit from Fire Officer, only problem being that there
was a 9mm gap round head, foot and lock side of the door !!

Neil

Neil wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Been asked by a BTL landlord to do some work to bring a small
terraced house up to standard.

BCO have specified that the existing door leading to the kitchen
should be fitted with intumescent seals and cold smoke seals.

She assures me that the existing door is a fire door, but I'm
getting alarm bells ringing.

Two reasons; I thought all fire doors should already be fitted with
intumescent seals as standard? And the door doesn't have a self
closer of any sort. I thought that should be standard as well?

Not all "fire" doors are fitted with intumescent seals.

How do I know its really a fire door?

--------------------------Snipped lots of good
stuff--------------------------------------

Hinges will also need to be fire rated as well. Depending on how old
the door is and whether its been planed down to fit it may have a
printed BS number on top edge. Bloody horrible job especially if
single handed trying to maneuvre these pigs so you can rout the edges
for the seals. Asked to quote for a job not long ago where the
Nursing Home proprietor wanted brush seals fitting after a visit from
Fire Officer, only problem being that there was a 9mm gap round head,
foot and lock side of the door !!
Neil

It's not a nice, easy job to do Neil - even when 'all things are equal'. I
once had to supervise the fitting of well over a hundred of the damn things
(half hour flush fire check) in every room in two large blocks of
multi-storey flats (except the bathrooms) - thankfully the front doors were
already fire rated.

Huge wrote:
On 2007-11-16, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Been asked by a BTL landlord to do some work to bring a small terraced house
up to standard.

BCO have specified that the existing door leading to the kitchen should be
fitted with intumescent seals and cold smoke seals.

She assures me that the existing door is a fire door, but I'm getting alarm
bells ringing.

Two reasons; I thought all fire doors should already be fitted with
intumescent seals as standard? And the door doesn't have a self closer of
any sort. I thought that should be standard as well?

The door to my integral garage is half-hour fireproof. It has neither
intumescent seals or a self closer.



A visit, or phone call to your local fire station should get some help.
They are extremely helpful in these matters and may even be willing to
visit the site.

Huge wrote:
On 2007-11-16, The Medway Handyman
wrote:
Been asked by a BTL landlord to do some work to bring a small
terraced house up to standard.

BCO have specified that the existing door leading to the kitchen
should be fitted with intumescent seals and cold smoke seals.

She assures me that the existing door is a fire door, but I'm
getting alarm bells ringing.

Two reasons; I thought all fire doors should already be fitted with
intumescent seals as standard? And the door doesn't have a self
closer of any sort. I thought that should be standard as well?

The door to my integral garage is half-hour fireproof. It has neither
intumescent seals or a self closer.

Huge,

Not half-hour fireproof but half-hour fire check - the door and frame will
succumb to the high temperatures of a fire eventually.

As a matter of interest, if the doors are installed in public buildings,
then they have to have the intumescent strips, smoke seals and be
self-closing along all fire escape routes such as corridors and stair
access - as do flats. Private dwellings are different.

Pedantic I know but... :-)

Brian G

Huge wrote:
On 2007-11-17, Brian G wrote:
Huge wrote:
On 2007-11-16, The Medway Handyman
wrote:
Been asked by a BTL landlord to do some work to bring a small
terraced house up to standard.

BCO have specified that the existing door leading to the kitchen
should be fitted with intumescent seals and cold smoke seals.

She assures me that the existing door is a fire door, but I'm
getting alarm bells ringing.

Two reasons; I thought all fire doors should already be fitted
with intumescent seals as standard? And the door doesn't have a
self closer of any sort. I thought that should be standard as
well?

The door to my integral garage is half-hour fireproof. It has
neither intumescent seals or a self closer.

Huge,

Not half-hour fireproof but half-hour fire check - the door and
frame will succumb to the high temperatures of a fire eventually.

Don't tell me, let me guess? After ... half an hour! Right? )

Nah! You can get one hour fire check doors too!!

And if you have enough cash to spend, you can get doors that withstand over
10,000 degrees of heat for a while - but a thermic lance will give 'em a run
for their money mind! :-)

As a matter of interest, if the doors are installed in public
buildings,

Does a BTL count as a public building?

BTL, I suppose that means Bought To Let? If that's the case then no -
unless you convert the property into flats, then any doors accessing a
corridor or stairway that's a designated 'fire escape' must have them - and
be self closing. There may also be a case whereby certain rooms inside the
flat may have to have a fire check door fitted.

Ah, there are exceptions in a private dwelling - the access to a loft
conversion must have a fire check door and also a door with direct access
from a connected garage into the main property (as in your case).

then they have to have the intumescent strips, smoke seals and be
self-closing along all fire escape routes such as corridors and stair
access - as do flats. Private dwellings are different.

Pedantic I know but... :-)

Astonishingly, my house is indeed a private dwelling.

Well I never, I wouldn't have though that from your original post! :-)

All the best Huge

Brian G

Brian G wrote:
Huge wrote:
On 2007-11-17, Brian G wrote:
Huge wrote:
On 2007-11-16, The Medway Handyman
wrote:
Been asked by a BTL landlord to do some work to bring a small
terraced house up to standard.

BCO have specified that the existing door leading to the kitchen
should be fitted with intumescent seals and cold smoke seals.

She assures me that the existing door is a fire door, but I'm
getting alarm bells ringing.

Two reasons; I thought all fire doors should already be fitted
with intumescent seals as standard? And the door doesn't have a
self closer of any sort. I thought that should be standard as
well?
The door to my integral garage is half-hour fireproof. It has
neither intumescent seals or a self closer.
Huge,

Not half-hour fireproof but half-hour fire check - the door and
frame will succumb to the high temperatures of a fire eventually.
Don't tell me, let me guess? After ... half an hour! Right? )

Nah! You can get one hour fire check doors too!!

And if you have enough cash to spend, you can get doors that withstand over
10,000 degrees of heat for a while - but a thermic lance will give 'em a run
for their money mind! :-)

As a matter of interest, if the doors are installed in public
buildings,
Does a BTL count as a public building?

BTL, I suppose that means Bought To Let? If that's the case then no -
unless you convert the property into flats, then any doors accessing a
corridor or stairway that's a designated 'fire escape' must have them - and
be self closing. There may also be a case whereby certain rooms inside the
flat may have to have a fire check door fitted.

Ah, there are exceptions in a private dwelling - the access to a loft
conversion must have a fire check door and also a door with direct access
from a connected garage into the main property (as in your case).

then they have to have the intumescent strips, smoke seals and be
self-closing along all fire escape routes such as corridors and stair
access - as do flats. Private dwellings are different.

Pedantic I know but... :-)
Astonishingly, my house is indeed a private dwelling.

Well I never, I wouldn't have though that from your original post! :-)

All the best Huge

Brian G


Years ago, when in the RAF I attended a lecture on fire and precautions.
Like, I suspect, many people I thought metal doors would be more fire
resistant than wooden, not so. We were showed films of rooms in which
fierce fires had been lit. The fires "jumped" to the adjacent rooms far
quicker when steel doors were used.

Broadback wrote:
Brian G wrote:
Huge wrote:
On 2007-11-17, Brian G wrote:
Huge wrote:
On 2007-11-16, The Medway Handyman
wrote:
Been asked by a BTL landlord to do some work to bring a small
terraced house up to standard.

BCO have specified that the existing door leading to the kitchen
should be fitted with intumescent seals and cold smoke seals.

She assures me that the existing door is a fire door, but I'm
getting alarm bells ringing.

Two reasons; I thought all fire doors should already be fitted
with intumescent seals as standard? And the door doesn't have a
self closer of any sort. I thought that should be standard as
well?
The door to my integral garage is half-hour fireproof. It has
neither intumescent seals or a self closer.
Huge,

Not half-hour fireproof but half-hour fire check - the door and
frame will succumb to the high temperatures of a fire eventually.
Don't tell me, let me guess? After ... half an hour! Right? )

Nah! You can get one hour fire check doors too!!

And if you have enough cash to spend, you can get doors that
withstand over 10,000 degrees of heat for a while - but a thermic
lance will give 'em a run for their money mind! :-)

As a matter of interest, if the doors are installed in public
buildings,
Does a BTL count as a public building?

BTL, I suppose that means Bought To Let? If that's the case then no
- unless you convert the property into flats, then any doors
accessing a corridor or stairway that's a designated 'fire escape'
must have them - and be self closing. There may also be a case
whereby certain rooms inside the flat may have to have a fire check
door fitted. Ah, there are exceptions in a private dwelling - the access
to a loft
conversion must have a fire check door and also a door with direct
access from a connected garage into the main property (as in your
case).
then they have to have the intumescent strips, smoke seals and be
self-closing along all fire escape routes such as corridors and
stair access - as do flats. Private dwellings are different.

Pedantic I know but... :-)
Astonishingly, my house is indeed a private dwelling.

Well I never, I wouldn't have though that from your original post! :-)
All the best Huge

Brian G


Years ago, when in the RAF I attended a lecture on fire and
precautions. Like, I suspect, many people I thought metal doors
would be more fire resistant than wooden, not so. We were showed
films of rooms in which fierce fires had been lit. The fires "jumped"
to the adjacent rooms far quicker when steel doors were used.

It's the same with lintels and floor joists. In intense heat, a metal
lintel or joist will bend, warp and collapse quite quickly, whereas wooden
ones will burn on the outside but retain their strength for quite a long
period - and that's one of the reasons you will often see structural steel
surrounded with reinforced concrete.

Brian G wrote:

It's the same with lintels and floor joists. In intense heat, a metal
lintel or joist will bend, warp and collapse quite quickly, whereas wooden
ones will burn on the outside but retain their strength for quite a long
period - and that's one of the reasons you will often see structural steel
surrounded with reinforced concrete.



ISTR one of the problems with the World Trade Center (sic) in 9/11 was
that the impact tore much of the fireproofing off the steel.

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
Brian G wrote:

It's the same with lintels and floor joists. In intense heat, a
metal lintel or joist will bend, warp and collapse quite quickly,
whereas wooden ones will burn on the outside but retain their
strength for quite a long period - and that's one of the reasons you
will often see structural steel surrounded with reinforced concrete.



ISTR one of the problems with the World Trade Center (sic) in 9/11 was
that the impact tore much of the fireproofing off the steel.

Andy

It was Andy - along with I believe, a design problem with the floor girders
to wall stanchions connection that allowed the building to fall like 'a pack
of cards' when a the weight of the top sections dropped onto the other
floors below.

Brian G

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:10:53 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

How do I know its really a fire door?

There's a magic coloured plastic plug in the edge, which by the aid of
arcane sympathetic majick can keep the fire demons at bay.

....Or so your BCO or local authority may believe, when you ask them to
sign-off a foot-thick solid granite door that _isn't_ marked with these
magic sigils. If they haven't got the right markings, and the guy with
the clipboard is an arse, then you can find yourself replacing every
door in the building for no overall benefit. Talk to the local
dispensers of red tape _first_, and find out what they're looking for.

Retro-fitting intumescent seals (to most standards) is however easy.
There's a retro-fit seal available, and a router cutter to match. You
can't quite do them in situ (I've seen idiots try), but it's an easy job
and pays very well indeed.

--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

Brian G wrote:
snip of the WTC
It was Andy - along with I believe, a design problem with the floor girders
to wall stanchions connection that allowed the building to fall like 'a pack
of cards' when a the weight of the top sections dropped onto the other
floors below.

Well -- I'd really like to see the design of a building that can cope when
you drop floors 51-80 on floor 50.