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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
Hi all,

Just an academic question.

What used to be used in Car Battery charger to convert the AC - DC
before silicon diodes/bridge rectifiers came along?

And did they do full rectification or just half wave?

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On Sep 13, 12:47 pm, wrote:
Hi all,

Just an academic question.

What used to be used in Car Battery charger to convert the AC - DC
before silicon diodes/bridge rectifiers came along?

Not sure about battery chargers in particular but older rectifiers
were either a vacuum tube or a selenium rectifier.

MBQ



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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On 13 Sep, 12:54, Paul Herber
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 04:47:27 -0700,
wrote:

Hi all,

Just an academic question.

What used to be used in Car Battery charger to convert the AC - DC
before silicon diodes/bridge rectifiers came along?

And did they do full rectification or just half wave?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_rectifier

--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd.
Electronics for Visio http://www.electronics.sandrila.co.uk/

Well, that was very quick! For a suplementry question (no extra
points i'm afraid) has technology moved on since the 70's? or are
todays chargers still a transformer, rectifier and a fuse in a box?

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On 13 Sep, 16:18, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:47:27 UTC, wrote:
Hi all,

Just an academic question.

What used to be used in Car Battery charger to convert the AC - DC
before silicon diodes/bridge rectifiers came along?

Supplementary:

What used to be used in car battery chargers to convery 240v to 12v when
the mains was DC?

(my train set used a small rotary converter)

Explain please

Thinking about it, I think I still have the "Transformer" that my
parents bought for the family train set in my loft C 1966 or so, and I
remember it having bugger all in it apart from a transformer and some
kind of overcurrent trip. I wonder what is in there?

I did have a look at the wikipaedia article mentioed earlier and also
followed the link to Bridge Rectifiers and the later link to vibrators
(electrical). Fascinating stuff!

I think my friend's late uncle's battery charger probably had a centre
tapped transformer and a couple of metal diodes (centre tapped so as
to get full wave rectification with just of two diodes) thus saving
the cost of two diodes. I suppose this made sense in the olden days
when diodes were relatively expensive compared with an extra tapping
on the transformer.

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
wrote:
On 13 Sep, 16:18, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:47:27 UTC, wrote:

Hi all,

Just an academic question.

What used to be used in Car Battery charger to convert the AC - DC
before silicon diodes/bridge rectifiers came along?

Any of the following:
vibrator rectifier
synchronous motor with commutator rectifier
tungar mercury discharge diode
selenium rectifier stack

AFAIK the old electrolytic rectifiers werent used
in commercial car chargers, but quite possibly in home made ones.

Vacuum valves were no use for this task.


Supplementary:

What used to be used in car battery chargers to convery 240v to 12v when
the mains was DC?

(my train set used a small rotary converter)

Any of the following:
series impedance, no transformation or isolation
vibrator & transformer with synchronous rectifier
motor generator


NT

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:59:38 -0700,
wrote:

(my train set used a small rotary converter)

Explain please

Thinking about it, I think I still have the "Transformer" that my
parents bought for the family train set in my loft C 1966 or so, and I
remember it having bugger all in it apart from a transformer and some
kind of overcurrent trip. I wonder what is in there?

I had one C1960. The transformer was a seperate unit to the "Train
controller" which had a miniature "Tram Controller" type handle
combining reversing and rheostatic speed control, smooth operation of
which was very poor and sticky. It also had a single red button which
functioned as a primitive (I think magnetic because it buzzed) circuit
breaker. I think all this adds up to a centre tapped rheostat and
bi-phase half wave rectification with germanium diodes.

The transformer also had a 1.25" fuse which blew very readily in case
of a derailment or just a short circuit both of which were quite
frequent in the days of Hornby 3 rail track. It was quite expensive to
keep on replacing fuses out of a 12 year old's pocket money. :-(


I did have a look at the wikipaedia article mentioed earlier and also
followed the link to Bridge Rectifiers and the later link to vibrators
(electrical). Fascinating stuff!

I think my friend's late uncle's battery charger probably had a centre
tapped transformer and a couple of metal diodes (centre tapped so as
to get full wave rectification with just of two diodes) thus saving
the cost of two diodes.

It's possible, but each diode would need 2x the current carrying
capacity for the same current output.

I suppose this made sense in the olden days
when diodes were relatively expensive compared with an extra tapping
on the transformer.

I'm sure some cheap low powered ones just had a single diode and half
wave rectification if the way they buzzed and the way the needle on
the ammeter used to vibrate was anything to go by.

DG

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
Bob Eager wrote:

What I said. In the late 1950s our mains was DC at 240 volts.
Transformers don't work on DC. So what was used?


This turns out not to be the case.

It took me ages to find a reference but...

http://thefusebox.ce-electricuk.com/...ry.cfm#item_12

Apparently the last DC supplies went off in 1946. I'm surprised it was
that late. Most places were AC long before.

Andy
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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:23:43 GMT Sam Farrell wrote :
DC in the 1950's surely they stopped using DC back in the 1930's

1956 round here, Twickenham SW London

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:42:16 UTC, Andy Champ wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:

What I said. In the late 1950s our mains was DC at 240 volts.
Transformers don't work on DC. So what was used?

This turns out not to be the case.

It took me ages to find a reference but...

http://thefusebox.ce-electricuk.com/...ry.cfm#item_12

Apparently the last DC supplies went off in 1946. I'm surprised it was
that late. Most places were AC long before.

I remember the changeover (in Brighton) and I was born in 1950.

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
I had a Tri-Ang train set. It used 12 volts DC.

I thought they used AC - hence the convoluted reversing system?

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
I had a Tri-Ang train set. It used 12 volts DC.

I thought they used AC - hence the convoluted reversing system?

Not my recollection, but it was a looong time agooo and I could be
wrong!

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:07:16 UTC, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
I had a Tri-Ang train set. It used 12 volts DC.

I thought they used AC - hence the convoluted reversing system?

I don't remember any convoluted reversing system! But that would
actually tend to reinforce my contention that we used DC mains for a
while - my dad might have 'found' a car battery instead of getting a
rotary converter, which would have had to output AC in that case. The
later 'box' would have been just a transformer.

But say more...

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
wrote:
On 13 Sep, 16:18, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:47:27 UTC, wrote:
Hi all,
Just an academic question.
What used to be used in Car Battery charger to convert the AC - DC
before silicon diodes/bridge rectifiers came along?
Supplementary:

What used to be used in car battery chargers to convery 240v to 12v when
the mains was DC?

(my train set used a small rotary converter)

Explain please

Thinking about it, I think I still have the "Transformer" that my
parents bought for the family train set in my loft C 1966 or so, and I
remember it having bugger all in it apart from a transformer and some
kind of overcurrent trip. I wonder what is in there?


Some had motors with field coils that ran on AC, and you shoved a HUGE
DC pulse in them to flip a bistable relay to reverse the field coils,
and teh loco..

I did have a look at the wikipaedia article mentioed earlier and also
followed the link to Bridge Rectifiers and the later link to vibrators
(electrical). Fascinating stuff!

I think my friend's late uncle's battery charger probably had a centre
tapped transformer and a couple of metal diodes (centre tapped so as
to get full wave rectification with just of two diodes) thus saving
the cost of two diodes. I suppose this made sense in the olden days
when diodes were relatively expensive compared with an extra tapping
on the transformer.

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:37:16 GMT, raden wrote:

Nothing wrong with smelt in the past tense

Smelt are baby herring

Even when dead and rotting, they don't smell as bad as a popped-off
selenium rectifier !

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On Sep 13, 9:47 am, wrote:
Hi all,

Just an academic question.

What used to be used in Car Battery charger to convert the AC - DC
before silicon diodes/bridge rectifiers came along?

And did they do full rectification or just half wave?

.................................................. .................................................. ............

Essentially two items inside a typical/conventional basic 'Battery
Charger'.(For lead acid 'car' batteries).

1) Transformer; as the name suggests changes (steps down) the 240
volts mains to something a bit above 12 volts.

2) A device or devices called rectifiers; various types, selenium,
copper oxide, mercury vapour as listed by other posters. These could
be either half wave or full wave; or full wave bridge etc. depending
on design. Different types of rectifiers introduce different voltage
losses; these are allowed for in the overall design.

Didn't/doesn't much matter whether the rectification from alternating
to direct voltage is full wave or half wave as long as sufficient
energy is provided at the output of the charger
..
Charger could be very simple devices with no controls or provisions
for adjustment. Just clip on the battery and away we go. Or more
sophisticated with features such as 'Full charge', 'Finishing charge'
and 'Trickle-Floating'.

Silicon and germanium just happen to be two of the more modern solid
sate device materials used. The basic rectification process has
essentially remained the same. For a very low voltage of 12 it would
have been unlikely that vacuum tubes would have been used; except that
mercury vapour (tungar) bulbs were available and recall seeing those
in use in garages in the 1940s..

There were at one time 'wet/electrolytic' rectifiers (1920s and
earlier?; before my time!) but not sure of their application.

However in more modern times we have seen the advent of 'switching
power supplies', to supply computers etc. These, typically, supply
plus and minus voltages of +12, minus 12, +5, minus 5 etc. Many of
these can accept both 120 v AC @ 60 hz or 240 v AC @ 50 hz.

In some instances these can be converted to a battery charger or 12
volt power supply for a mobile or car type radio. We did this
recently, converting a 10 to 15 year old scrapped computer PS to
produce over 10 amps @12 volts to power an amateur radio rig.

Now we haven't even mention 'pulse charging' and other techniques for
some very modern batteries; another whole subject.

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On Sep 13, 5:42 pm, Andy Champ wrote:
Apparently the last DC supplies went off in 1946. I'm surprised it was
that late. Most places were AC long before.

Andy: I first went on installation work in city of Gloucester in
summer of 1953.
DC mains were still fully in use in one part of that city where we
were in digs (lodgings).
Ironic cos I had built a radio to take with me using an ex Admiralty
AC transformer!
Other parts of Gloucester had 50 hertz AC.
I'm not the least surprised that DC mains might have persisted in
various parts of Britain for considerable time after that. Some things
were still rationed in 1953 and later!
Terry: Now in Newfoundland Canada with a nice comfortable 115/230 60
hertz 200 amp domestic service connection.

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
In article , Andy Champ
scribeth thus
Bob Eager wrote:

What I said. In the late 1950s our mains was DC at 240 volts.
Transformers don't work on DC. So what was used?


This turns out not to be the case.

It took me ages to find a reference but...

http://thefusebox.ce-electricuk.com/...ry.cfm#item_12

Apparently the last DC supplies went off in 1946. I'm surprised it was
that late. Most places were AC long before.

Andy

Was it as long ago as that?, ISTR that the old thompsons lane power
station in Cambridge was supplying DC up the 1960's...
--
Tony Sayer



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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On 13 Sep, 18:30, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:59:38 UTC, wrote:
Supplementary:

What used to be used in car battery chargers to convery 240v to 12v when
the mains was DC?

(my train set used a small rotary converter)

Explain please

What I said. In the late 1950s our mains was DC at 240 volts.
Transformers don't work on DC. So what was used?

I had a Tri-Ang train set. It used 12 volts DC. I had a little
motor/generator combined (240v motor, 12v generator) in a perforated
metal case, about 12 inches by 6 by 6 (perhaps a little smaller).
Excitement when my dad came home with a small red box and said "We'll be
using this instead from next week". That was a transformer/rectifier box
to use when they changed our mains to AC.

Sorry Bob, wasn't being rude, just wanted to know what a rotary
converter was. Funny thing is whilst it meant nothing yesterday,
before I read you explanation today I thought - Oh, he probably means
a 240V motor driving a 12V gennie :=))

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On 13 Sep, 18:27, Derek Geldard wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:59:38 -0700,
wrote:

(my train set used a small rotary converter)

Explain please

Thinking about it, I think I still have the "Transformer" that my
parents bought for the family train set in my loft C 1966 or so, and I
remember it having bugger all in it apart from a transformer and some
kind of overcurrent trip. I wonder what is in there?

I had one C1960. The transformer was a seperate unit to the "Train
controller" which had a miniature "Tram Controller" type handle
combining reversing and rheostatic speed control, smooth operation of
which was very poor and sticky. It also had a single red button which
functioned as a primitive (I think magnetic because it buzzed) circuit
breaker. I think all this adds up to a centre tapped rheostat and
bi-phase half wave rectification with germanium diodes.

I had (have!) a controller which used to sit atop 3 batteries and I
think it would have connected to all three and series-ed them (I
suppose they were 4 volts each)

My dad modified this to run off the output of the transformer, which
sounds very similar to yours, but I it never blew fuses, so I suspect
it wasn't fused. The magnetic buzzy thing did trip if you put a penny
across the (2) tracks though :=))

One time my brother set the track up and "forgot" to include the
transformer in the circuit - The car didn't go very far :=((


The transformer also had a 1.25" fuse which blew very readily in case
of a derailment or just a short circuit both of which were quite
frequent in the days of Hornby 3 rail track. It was quite expensive to
keep on replacing fuses out of a 12 year old's pocket money. :-(

Should've bought a soldering iron and some fuse wire :=))

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On 14 Sep, 12:09, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:20:05 UTC, wrote:
Explain please

What I said. In the late 1950s our mains was DC at 240 volts.
Transformers don't work on DC. So what was used?

I had a Tri-Ang train set. It used 12 volts DC. I had a little
motor/generator combined (240v motor, 12v generator) in a perforated
metal case, about 12 inches by 6 by 6 (perhaps a little smaller).
Excitement when my dad came home with a small red box and said "We'll be
using this instead from next week". That was a transformer/rectifier box
to use when they changed our mains to AC.

Sorry Bob, wasn't being rude, just wanted to know what a rotary
converter was. Funny thing is whilst it meant nothing yesterday,
before I read you explanation today I thought - Oh, he probably means
a 240V motor driving a 12V gennie :=))

No problem! I think they were more commonly used to generate AC from
DC....

I know my uncle built one once to convert between 240V and 120V.

It was for an electric fence in his Haunted House (he was a showman)
If the local yoof got a bit excited and started thumping the cage that
the exhibits were in, a nice belt of AC used to calm them down :=))

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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On 13 Sep, 23:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
wrote:
Hi all,

Just an academic question.

What used to be used in Car Battery charger to convert the AC - DC
before silicon diodes/bridge rectifiers came along?

And did they do full rectification or just half wave?

Half wave is plenty.

I've always wanted to build but never made it yet is a mains motor
driving a decent size, say 80amp, car alternator. After all that's
what is normally used.
In he US where they first had alternators on cars, Selenium stacks
were used. I fitted some Silicon stud diodes to my Triumph 21 (350cc)
back in the mid 60's. The first car alternator I used in the UK, again
mid 60's used the big 30 amp push fit stud diodes made by Motorola. I
have actually manged to push these out on odd occassions using about
half inch rod and a mallet.

Copper Oxide diodes were used for moving coil instrument
rectification.

Chris.


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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:20:05 UTC, wrote:

Explain please

What I said. In the late 1950s our mains was DC at 240 volts.
Transformers don't work on DC. So what was used?

I had a Tri-Ang train set. It used 12 volts DC. I had a little
motor/generator combined (240v motor, 12v generator) in a perforated
metal case, about 12 inches by 6 by 6 (perhaps a little smaller).
Excitement when my dad came home with a small red box and said "We'll
be
using this instead from next week". That was a transformer/rectifier
box
to use when they changed our mains to AC.

Sorry Bob, wasn't being rude, just wanted to know what a rotary
converter was. Funny thing is whilst it meant nothing yesterday,
before I read you explanation today I thought - Oh, he probably means
a 240V motor driving a 12V gennie :=))

No problem! I think they were more commonly used to generate AC from
DC....

Yes, my dad had one for the car, 12V motor and little 240V alternator in the
same package. Noisy and inefficient! Remeber my Triang TT gauge train set as
well although we were always AC (being as , ahem, young as I am). One of my
friends, having experienced the tingle you get if you put 6V battery
terminals on your tongue decided to try the output of the Triang transformer
set on his tongue. He didn't do it again. The best way he could find to
describe it was it being like being struck simultaneously by torpedos on
each side of his head. I decided not to follow suit!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)


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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
On 2007-09-14 00:30:14 +0100, Andy Dingley said:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:37:16 GMT, raden wrote:

Nothing wrong with smelt in the past tense

Smelt are baby herring

Even when dead and rotting, they don't smell as bad as a popped-off
selenium rectifier !

Haven't experienced that for years.

I can remember being physically sick it was so bad.


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Default Old fashioned car battery charger technology
tony sayer wrote:

Was it as long ago as that?, ISTR that the old thompsons lane power
station in Cambridge was supplying DC up the 1960's...

That serves me right for researching! Looks as if DC was around much
later than I (and that website) thought.

Andy
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