"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-01-22 23:07:01 +0000, "Doctor Drivel" said:


I draw a blank when I see Little Middle England on the map.

You draw a blank anyway.

Matt, that is true, any-way I see Little Middle England I draw a blank.

On 2007-01-23 21:02:54 +0000, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-01-22 23:07:01 +0000, "Doctor Drivel" said:


I draw a blank when I see Little Middle England on the map.

You draw a blank anyway.

Matt, that is true, any-way I see Little Middle England I draw a blank.

Clearly a figment of your imagination, then....

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-01-23 21:02:54 +0000, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-01-22 23:07:01 +0000, "Doctor Drivel" said:


I draw a blank when I see Little Middle England on the map.

You draw a blank anyway.

Matt, that is true, any-way I see Little Middle England I draw a blank.

Clearly a figment of your imagination, then....

Matt, no. Little Middle England does exist and you are a part of it 100%.

On 23 Jan, 18:51, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
wrote in oglegroups.com...

Just a few point I have extracted from the Guardian and the last one is from a debate in the Caledonian Council where the responsible Minister is answering a question from RedSheeri.

1) Critics argue that condenser boilers malfunction easily and can cost hundreds of pounds a year to maintain. Many survive only half as long as their traditional counterparts. They are technically complex, with many more things that can go wrong than traditional boilers. It can add up to nightmarish bills.

2) The new systems cost upwards of £500 more on average than
conventional boilers. And if the many letters from heating engineers
are anything to go by, the boilers come with a hidden surcharge, so
high that it can wipe out all the gains for the homeowner and the
environment.

3) One major independent firm of plumbers said that over the past three
to four years it has made thousands of call-outs to mend condensing
boilers, and that the greenhouse gas emissions from its vans were
probably greater than the savings made by the shift to eco-conscious
boilers.

4) British Gas, which maintains 4m boilers under its Homecare scheme,
admits condensing boilers are a "relatively new technology" and says
numerous improvements have been required in the past few years. A
spokesman says: "Condensing boilers are by necessity more complex in
design than the more traditional products."

5) One reader wrote last year to Which, asking it to test condensing
boilers. But the organisation says it has not tested the machines,
which are complex and may have problems which might not appear for
several years.

6) Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): To ask the Scottish Executive
whether not installing condensing boilers under its central heating
installation programme will result in higher running costs for tenants
and lower savings in energy and CO2 emissions in the future than would
be the case if they were installed.

Jackie Baillie: It need not have this effect. The industry standard is
the Seasonal Efficiency of Domestic Boilers in the UK database which
categorises central heating systems by bands. Band D contains high
efficiency non-condensing boilers with modulating burners which operate
at efficiencies equal to condensing boilers. The similar performance of
some condensing and non-condensing boilers was influential in deciding
to specify a minimum annual seasonal efficiency of 78 per cent for gas
fired boilers in the performance specifications for the Central Heating
Programme.







Doctor Drivel wrote:

wrote in message
roups.com...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

What I have stated regarding the
Combi is common knowledge in the
Plumbing Trade.

What you stated was total balls. Those "professionals" who believe
that
should get a job on the milk. Plumbers should stick to drains and
leave
heating alone. There are three bathroom combis around.

I accept that my view on Condensing Boilers may be
controversial but its the conclusion I came to.

Which is totally wrong as you know sweet nothing of the heating
business.
A
non-condensing and condensing boiler is the same except for a larger
heat
exchanger and drain. The electronics are near identical in most cases.
The
Atmos doesn't need a drain connection.

On the Estate where I live I am surrounded by neighbours that have
Condensing Boilers which require constant and never ending attention
from British Gas.

So they have a cheap crap make installed. Put in a Vaillant, Atag,
Geminox,
Atmos, ECO-Homtec or Viessmann and see if BG turn up frequently.

Those who have older Boilers just seem to go on and on without
requiring any attention.

And pay 30 to 40% more in fuel too.

Having given this clarification I now invite you to lay out the
specific points you believe are wrong and I will answer them.

As you know sweet FA about boilers and heating it is best to keep
quiet,
read and learn. All your points are wrong.

Could you just address the point I made about using old pipes with a
new Combi?

You made lots of totally inaccurate points and they were addressed.
People
may actually believe that tripe.

Old pipes? The pipes are fine. Have the system flushed properly. If the
rads are so corroded that they leak when 1 bar pressure is inside them
they
are knackered anyway and are about to be holed and drip. Best replace
them
all at the same time, or those that hole. Fit a Magnaclean filter on the
CH
return pipe and insert inhibitor.

I will accept your response as you being
in broad agreement with me about potential
problems with old pipes(and radiators) in a system
pressured for a Comb!.I am not in agreement with you at all. If the rads pop they are for
replacement anyway. You may find that difficult to understand.

And now -"I fitted a traditional Boiler
and could do so because I live
in Scotland.A very foolish thing to do as you pay higher gas bills.

If you live in England you do not have
that option because of the change to
Building Regulations"A And a welcome change too which the Jocks should follow.

Can you accept this statement as being accurate?You are so mean it will backlash on you. You don't have the intelligence to
see it.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

wrote in message
oups.com...

snip misinformation and tripe. All of it

Good designed and quality condensing boilers last when made by the Dutch and
Germans and are one piece heat exchangers.


Jackie Baillie: It need not have this effect. The industry standard is
the Seasonal Efficiency of Domestic Boilers in the UK database which
categorises central heating systems by bands. Band D contains high
efficiency non-condensing boilers with modulating burners which operate
at efficiencies equal to condensing boilers.


They do not. The best non-condensing boiler is just 80% in band D. No
condensing boiler is that low, the least is band C with most in A these
days.

There is no such thing as a high efficiency non-condensing boiler.

Boy you do drag em up don't you.

On 24 Jan 2007 06:08:20 -0800 wrote :
Just a few point I have extracted from the Guardian and the last
one is from a debate in the Caledonian Council where the
responsible Minister is answering a question from RedSheeri.

This sounds like something from the last century. Some early
condensing boilers (q.v. Potterton Envoy, introduced 1995) were bad
news; the newer side and downfiring ones from suppliers such as
Vaillant and Worcester are fine - my Vaillant-designed Glow-worm has
run for 3 years without any attention. Condensing boilers don't now
carry any real price premium. And Band D boilers have been outlawed
in all but a few cases for nearly two years.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On 24 Jan 2007 06:08:20 -0800 wrote :
Just a few point I have extracted from the Guardian and the last
one is from a debate in the Caledonian Council where the
responsible Minister is answering a question from RedSheeri.

This sounds like something from the last century. Some early
condensing boilers (q.v. Potterton Envoy, introduced 1995) were bad
news; the newer side and downfiring ones from suppliers such as
Vaillant and Worcester are fine - my Vaillant-designed Glow-worm has
run for 3 years without any attention. Condensing boilers don't now
carry any real price premium. And Band D boilers have been outlawed
in all but a few cases for nearly two years.

Good designed condensing boilers don't require cleaning as the condensate
washes down the heat exchanger.

Most of my previous post is missing-I would hope this is just a
technical hitch and not is a deliberate attempt to censor and control
differing opinions??
I will resubmit my full post shortly.

On 24 Jan, 15:26, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"Tony Bryer" wrote in .. .

On 24 Jan 2007 06:08:20 -0800 wrote :
Just a few point I have extracted from the Guardian and the last
one is from a debate in the Caledonian Council where the
responsible Minister is answering a question from RedSheeri.

This sounds like something from the last century. Some early
condensing boilers (q.v. Potterton Envoy, introduced 1995) were bad
news; the newer side and downfiring ones from suppliers such as
Vaillant and Worcester are fine - my Vaillant-designed Glow-worm has
run for 3 years without any attention. Condensing boilers don't now
carry any real price premium. And Band D boilers have been outlawed
in all but a few cases for nearly two years.Good designed condensing boilers don't require cleaning as the condensate
washes down the heat exchanger.

On 23 Jan, 18:51, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
wrote in oglegroups.com...







Doctor Drivel wrote:

wrote in message
roups.com...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

What I have stated regarding the
Combi is common knowledge in the
Plumbing Trade.

What you stated was total balls. Those "professionals" who believe
that
should get a job on the milk. Plumbers should stick to drains and
leave
heating alone. There are three bathroom combis around.

I accept that my view on Condensing Boilers may be
controversial but its the conclusion I came to.

Which is totally wrong as you know sweet nothing of the heating
business.
A
non-condensing and condensing boiler is the same except for a larger
heat
exchanger and drain. The electronics are near identical in most cases.
The
Atmos doesn't need a drain connection.

On the Estate where I live I am surrounded by neighbours that have
Condensing Boilers which require constant and never ending attention
from British Gas.

So they have a cheap crap make installed. Put in a Vaillant, Atag,
Geminox,
Atmos, ECO-Homtec or Viessmann and see if BG turn up frequently.

Those who have older Boilers just seem to go on and on without
requiring any attention.

And pay 30 to 40% more in fuel too.

Having given this clarification I now invite you to lay out the
specific points you believe are wrong and I will answer them.

As you know sweet FA about boilers and heating it is best to keep
quiet,
read and learn. All your points are wrong.

Could you just address the point I made about using old pipes with a
new Combi?

You made lots of totally inaccurate points and they were addressed.
People
may actually believe that tripe.

Old pipes? The pipes are fine. Have the system flushed properly. If the
rads are so corroded that they leak when 1 bar pressure is inside them
they
are knackered anyway and are about to be holed and drip. Best replace
them
all at the same time, or those that hole. Fit a Magnaclean filter on the
CH
return pipe and insert inhibitor.

I will accept your response as you being
in broad agreement with me about potential
problems with old pipes(and radiators) in a system
pressured for a Comb!.I am not in agreement with you at all. If the rads pop they are for
replacement anyway. You may find that difficult to understand.

And now -"I fitted a traditional Boiler
and could do so because I live
in Scotland.A very foolish thing to do as you pay higher gas bills.

If you live in England you do not have
that option because of the change to
Building Regulations"A And a welcome change too which the Jocks should follow.

Can you accept this statement as being accurate?You are so mean it will backlash on you. You don't have the intelligence to
see it.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

I place before you a number of comments relating to Condensing Boilers
extracted from Guardian. The final point is from the responsible
Minister answering a question from Redsheeri.

1) Critics argue that condenser boilers malfunction easily and can cost
hundreds of pounds a year to maintain. Many survive only half as long
as their traditional counterparts. They are technically complex, with
many more things that can go wrong than traditional boilers. It can add
up to nightmarish bills.

2) The new systems cost upwards of £500 more on average than
conventional boilers. And if the many letters from heating engineers
are anything to go by, the boilers come with a hidden surcharge, so
high that it can wipe out all the gains for the homeowner and the
environment.

3) One major independent firm of plumbers said that over the past three
to four years it has made thousands of call-outs to mend condensing
boilers, and that the greenhouse gas emissions from its vans were
probably greater than the savings made by the shift to eco-conscious
boilers.

4) British Gas, which maintains 4m boilers under its Homecare scheme,
admits condensing boilers are a "relatively new technology" and says
numerous improvements have been required in the past few years. A
spokesman says: "Condensing boilers are by necessity more complex in
design than the more traditional products."

5) One reader wrote last year to Which, asking it to test condensing
boilers. But the organisation says it has not tested the machines,
which are complex and may have problems which might not appear for
several years.

6a) Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): To ask the Scottish Executive
whether not installing condensing boilers under its central heating
installation programme will result in higher running costs for tenants
and lower savings in energy and CO2 emissions in the future than would
be the case if they were installed.

b) Jackie Baillie: It need not have this effect. The industry standard
is the Seasonal Efficiency of Domestic Boilers in the UK database which
categorises central heating systems by bands. Band D contains high
efficiency non-condensing boilers with modulating burners which operate
at efficiencies equal to condensing boilers. The similar performance of
some condensing and non-condensing boilers was influential in deciding
to specify a minimum annual seasonal efficiency of 78 per cent for gas
fired boilers in the performance specifications for the Central Heating
Programme.

It could be that its down to you as a dynamic Combi/ Condensing
Eco-warrior that I got my brand new guaranteed conventional Boiler for
£150 post 1 April 2005. Perhaps I am one of the few who will ever gain
anything from the greens and devolution.

Its been a absolute delight exchanging views with someone who knows
everything but if you will excuse me I have to return urgently to
Planet Earth.

Live long and prosper. Mikie

wrote in message
oups.com...

Its been a absolute delight exchanging
views with someone who knows
everything

A pleasure

got my brand new guaranteed
conventional Boiler for
£150 post 1 April 2005

£150? A class act eh! ON the 1st April too. He saw you coming eh.

but if you will excuse me I have to return urgently to
planet Earth.

I have never regarded Jockoland as on planet Earth.

Live long and prosper.

We will not with irresponsible polluting plantpots like you.

Go in peace and in ignorance
And pay high bills (that should a Jockos back up)

On 24 Jan 2007 07:51:44 -0800 wrote :
Most of my previous post is missing-I would hope this is just a
technical hitch and not is a deliberate attempt to censor and control
differing opinions??

No, it's called not quoting more than is necessary,

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On 24 Jan, 16:51, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
wrote in ooglegroups.com...

Its been a absolute delight exchanging
views with someone who knows
everythingA pleasure

got my brand new guaranteed
conventional Boiler for
£150 post 1 April 2005£150? A class act eh! ON the 1st April too. He saw you coming eh.

but if you will excuse me I have to return urgently to
planet Earth.I have never regarded Jockoland as on planet Earth.

Live long and prosper.We will not with irresponsible polluting plantpots like you.

Go in peace and in ignorance
And pay high bills (that should a Jockos back up)
"£150? A class act eh! ON the 1st April too. He saw you coming eh."

Not a 'HE' but a large Nationwide Builders and Plumbers Merchant.

"We will not with irresponsible polluting plantpots like you."

Just as I suspect another Red who has had a quick EcoGreen Respray.

"Go in peace and in ignorance And pay high bills"

I have a very efficient HIGH PERFORMANCE CONVENTIAL Boiler which will
probably last 20-25 years. Perhaps you could explain HOW LONG I would
need to pay Gas Bills to close the difference* between the £150 I
paid and over £1250 I would have paid had I bought a potentially
troublesome Condensing Boiler with half the life of the Convential
Boiler I have????

I only hope I live that long* but if I could live as long as this
Boiler will function I'd be even happier.

Its all down what was stated by Jackie Baillie: It need not have this
effect..... Band D contains high efficiency non-condensing boilers with
modulating burners which operate at efficiencies equal to condensing
boilers. The similar performance of some condensing and non-condensing
boilers...

And don't worry about the current problems with Condensing Boilers I
have no doubt a Scottish Engineer at some time in the future will find
a way making it perform seamlessly.

It really has been a pleasure dealing with such a knowledgeable
individual. I'll bet you are also very modest and humble!!

I have never encountered a discussion forum such as this I hope that
you and the three or four who stay with it will enjoy each other.
Goodnight and Goodbye.

wrote in message
ups.com...

snip drivel

I have a very efficient HIGH PERFORMANCE
CONVENTIAL Boiler

There is no suich thing,

which will probably last 20-25 years.

At £150? And you believed him as well. Be prepared to replace it soon.

snip total idiocy

On 24 Jan 2007 12:36:28 -0800 wrote :
Band D contains high efficiency non-condensing boilers with
modulating burners which operate at efficiencies equal to condensing
boilers.

Band D High efficiency.

The efficiencies are not equal: for wall-hung gas boilers used in most
houses the least efficient condenser currently produced is the Malvern
twentytwentysix at 86.5%; the most efficient non-condensor the Maxol
Microsystem 402MDF at 79.9% (Data from SEDBUK boiler database issue
211: 18/12/2006). Virtually all makers have condensing models with a
seasonal efficiency of 90%+

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk