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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
My house is a 1950s 2 story semi.
I am connecting one fluorescent downstairs kitchen light in parallel with another fluorescent, without taking up any more upstairs floorboards. I have found a mass of single core PVC wires. Does anyone remember what colours were used in the 1950s lights for wiring, so that I can cut the right wires? -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst* method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies. |
#2
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
After serious thinking Dave Fawthrop wrote :
My house is a 1950s 2 story semi. I am connecting one fluorescent downstairs kitchen light in parallel with another fluorescent, without taking up any more upstairs floorboards. I have found a mass of single core PVC wires. Does anyone remember what colours were used in the 1950s lights for wiring, so that I can cut the right wires? Red for live, black for neutral - exactly the same as until quite recently. 1950's though would probably be VIR - rubber insulation which becomes very brittle covered by a waxed woven cotton for protection, or rubber with a tough rubber overlay for protection. So the VIR would look a red/brown colour, rather than red - all well overdue for replacement. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk |
#3
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
In article ,
Dave Fawthrop wrote: My house is a 1950s 2 story semi. I am connecting one fluorescent downstairs kitchen light in parallel with another fluorescent, without taking up any more upstairs floorboards. I have found a mass of single core PVC wires. Does anyone remember what colours were used in the 1950s lights for wiring, so that I can cut the right wires? Red and black - same as up to recently. -- *Change is inevitable ... except from vending machines * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#4
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:51:35 +0000 someone who may be Dave Fawthrop
wrote this:- My house is a 1950s 2 story semi. I am connecting one fluorescent downstairs kitchen light in parallel with another fluorescent, without taking up any more upstairs floorboards. You should find a terminal block in the current fitting, which has live neutral and earth terminals. Don't cut anything, just run a new cable from this to the new fitting. You have informed John Prescott I take it. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#5
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Colours of 1950s wiring.
Dave Fawthrop wrote: Does anyone remember what colours were used in the 1950s lights for wiring, so that I can cut the right wires? Red is the equivalent of Brown and Black is now Blue. Earth was a plain green and is now green and yellow. Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst* method of accessing usenet. Go **** yourself. |
#6
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Colours of 1950s wiring.
Weatherlawyer presented the following explanation :
Red is the equivalent of Brown and Black is now Blue. Earth was a plain green and is now green and yellow. Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper wire. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk |
#7
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Colours of 1950s wiring.
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield
wrote this:- Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper wire. Or alternatively the earth connection was made via the screws from the conduit. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#8
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield writes: 1950's though would probably be VIR - rubber insulation which becomes very brittle covered by a waxed woven cotton for protection, or rubber with a tough rubber overlay for protection. So the VIR would look a red/brown colour, rather than red - all well overdue for replacement. PVC was in use by 1955, but not exclusively so -- rubber was still being used too. There may be no earth in 1950's lighting circuits -- it was optional. If there is no earth, you can only use class II (double insulated) light fittings. -- Andrew Gabriel |
#9
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Colours of 1950s wiring.
David Hansen presented the following explanation :
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield wrote this:- Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper wire. Or alternatively the earth connection was made via the screws from the conduit. .... and the (likely) grip conduit joints will be so rusted that it would no longer be safe to rely upon it for earthing purposes. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk |
#10
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Colours of 1950s wiring.
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
David Hansen presented the following explanation : On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield wrote this:- Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper wire. Or alternatively the earth connection was made via the screws from the conduit. ... and the (likely) grip conduit joints will be so rusted that it would no longer be safe to rely upon it for earthing purposes. There is a problem with half a century old rubber wiring. Its often in such bad condition than any disturbance is liable to cause shorts, fusenpoppen, shock or fire. In short, leave it well alone. The solution is most likely to open the existing fl light and connect it up there, making sure you dont run the new wire past the hot choke. There is also the question of earth, the new fitting should be earthed, assuming its metal cased. To achieve this you can rewire your lighting cct if it has no earth. Borrowing an earth from somewhere else is sometimes done, but this is not regs compliant, and there are reasons why, so you should not do it. In short theres not much chance of you being able to do it to modern safety standards without rewiring. But if you choose to do so anyway, at least dont disturb the old rubber wiring, thats where the biggest danger lies. NT |
#11
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Colours of 1950s wiring.
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#12
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Colours of 1950s wiring.
Weatherlawyer wrote:
wrote: Harry Bloomfield wrote: David Hansen presented the following explanation : On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield wrote this:- There is a problem with half a century old rubber wiring. Its often in such bad condition than any disturbance is liable to cause shorts, fusenpoppen, shock or fire. In short, leave it well alone. How does that apply to pvc wiring? It doesnt apply to pvc, which is normally in healthy condition at that age. Ditto with ashathene, which looks like pvc. NT |
#13
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote: PVC was in use by 1955, but not exclusively so -- rubber was still being used too. I never saw domestic house wiring in PVC until the '60s. Although it was common for some types of flex. Perhaps Aberdeen was rather conservative. ;-) -- *A plateau is a high form of flattery* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#14
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:17:30 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel wrote: PVC was in use by 1955, but not exclusively so -- rubber was still being used too. I never saw domestic house wiring in PVC until the '60s. Although it was common for some types of flex. Perhaps Aberdeen was rather conservative. ;-) =============================== It was certainly available in the early 1950s but I think it may have been available as separate single cables rather than sheathed. There was one of those 'crazes' in the mid 1950s for using PVC covered wire for making bangles, bracelets, fancy belts and even woggles. Cic. -- ================================ Testing UBUNTU Linux Everything working so far ================================ |
#17
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Colours of 1950s wiring.
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On 17 Dec 2006 07:27:45 -0800, wrote: |There is a problem with half a century old rubber wiring. Its definitely PVC like the sheds sell now. youre lucky. Will still be various safety issue, but not the cable itself, which is the worst of all on most old installs. NT |
#18
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Colours of 1950s wiring.
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
... and the (likely) grip conduit joints will be so rusted that it would no longer be safe to rely upon it for earthing purposes. And even if you think they look OK, pin-grip and plain slip joints in conduit are specifically disallowed in the regs nowadays [543-03-06]. -- Andy |
#19
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
Cicero wrote:
[PVC] It was certainly available in the early 1950s but I think it may have been available as separate single cables rather than sheathed. The transition period from TRS to PVC for twin and twin-and-earth cables was quite long. Someone[1] posted the following list of dates on the IET wiring regs forum not too long ago: quote Try these approximate dates: Lead sheathed cables: pre-1948. Tough rubber (TRS): 1945-1962. Capothene and Ashothene Sheathed Cables: 1952-1960. PVC/PVC cables without cpc (lighting): 1955-1966. Imperial cables PVC: 1955-1971. 2.5mm PVC/PVC with 1mm cpc: 1971-1981. Black earth conductors: pre-1966. Green protective sleeving: pre-1966. Absence of main equipotential bonding conductors: pre-1966. 2.5mm main equipotential bonding conductors - small installations: 1971-1972. 6mm main equipotential bonding conductors - small installations: 1966-1983. 10mm main equipotential bonding conductors - small installations: post-1983. Twin twisted flexible cords: pre-1977. Fault voltage operated circuit breakers: pre-1981. Accessories mounted on wooden blocks: pre-1966. Non-13A socket-outlets pre-1955. Double-pole fused switchgear on AC installations: pre-1955. Others might may have other recollections. I appreciate that some things were being used some time after the dates e.g. 15amp sockets. /quote [1] Original source he http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/m...nterthre ad=y (edited for typography by the present author). -- Andy |
#20
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
In article ,
Cicero wrote: In article , Andrew Gabriel wrote: PVC was in use by 1955, but not exclusively so -- rubber was still being used too. I never saw domestic house wiring in PVC until the '60s. Although it was common for some types of flex. Perhaps Aberdeen was rather conservative. ;-) =============================== It was certainly available in the early 1950s but I think it may have been available as separate single cables rather than sheathed. Could be: I was referring to TW&E or Twin sheathed. There was one of those 'crazes' in the mid 1950s for using PVC covered wire for making bangles, bracelets, fancy belts and even woggles. PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff. -- *60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#21
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
In article ,
Andy Wade writes: Green protective sleeving: pre-1966. I suspect that's a mistake. It should probably read: Green protective sleeving: 1966-1971(?) Green/Yellow protective sleeving: 1971(?) onwards Non-13A socket-outlets pre-1955. Should also add: 13A socket-outlets: post-1945 (Introduction in 1946) Very interesting though. -- Andrew Gabriel |
#22
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Green protective sleeving: pre-1966. I suspect that's a mistake. It should probably read: Green protective sleeving: 1966-1971(?) Green/Yellow protective sleeving: 1971(?) onwards Agreed. Someone else posted a follow-up: "The use of green alone as the colour identification of earthing conductors is admissible until 31 December 1977, after which the use of this colour may no longer be described as complying with these Regulations." [Table B.4A 14th Ed 1976] Non-13A socket-outlets pre-1955. Should also add: 13A socket-outlets: post-1945 (Introduction in 1946) Slightly later, maybe. The first edition of BS 1363 was dated 1947. Was there a change-over date here at all? Round-pin plugs are still allowed, after all. 1955 is the publication date of the 13th Edition, so perhaps that's when 13 A sockets became a preferred option. Very interesting though. Yes. -- Andy |
#23
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 01:52:26 +0000 (GMT) Dave Plowman (News) wrote :
There was one of those 'crazes' in the mid 1950s for using PVC covered wire for making bangles, bracelets, fancy belts and even woggles. PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff. It was a craze here c.1963, under the name Scooby doo - packets with two colours of what was really PVC sleeving. And they probably sold it for more than Homebase would have charged for earth sleeving! I look on Google and guess what "Thursday, March 10, 2005 The latest mad craze is knitting. Watch out, American teens, you may be next. France, Belgium and Scandinavia have already fallen. In the space of two weeks, the fashion for knitting bits of cheap plastic string into a pointlessly coloured piece of cord has invaded and utterly overthrown my students. There is no child in the school - not one - I'm including the sixteen year olds here - unswathed by bunches of brightly coloured plastic 'laces', and desperately knotting together some improbable pattern in the hopes it will hold till the next lot of colours can be swapped." http://www.inblogs.net/blackboardjun...-knitting.html -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk |
#24
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
Andy Wade wrote:
Cicero wrote: [PVC] It was certainly available in the early 1950s but I think it may have been available as separate single cables rather than sheathed. The transition period from TRS to PVC for twin and twin-and-earth cables was quite long. Someone[1] posted the following list of dates on the IET wiring regs forum not too long ago: quote Try these approximate dates: Lead sheathed cables: pre-1948. Tough rubber (TRS): 1945-1962. Capothene and Ashothene Sheathed Cables: 1952-1960. PVC/PVC cables without cpc (lighting): 1955-1966. Imperial cables PVC: 1955-1971. 2.5mm PVC/PVC with 1mm cpc: 1971-1981. Black earth conductors: pre-1966. Green protective sleeving: pre-1966. Absence of main equipotential bonding conductors: pre-1966. 2.5mm main equipotential bonding conductors - small installations: 1971-1972. 6mm main equipotential bonding conductors - small installations: 1966-1983. 10mm main equipotential bonding conductors - small installations: post-1983. Twin twisted flexible cords: pre-1977. Fault voltage operated circuit breakers: pre-1981. Accessories mounted on wooden blocks: pre-1966. Non-13A socket-outlets pre-1955. Double-pole fused switchgear on AC installations: pre-1955. Others might may have other recollections. I appreciate that some things were being used some time after the dates e.g. 15amp sockets. /quote [1] Original source he http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/m...nterthre ad=y (edited for typography by the present author). My parents house built in 1952/3 featured rubber cable in steel conduit and the then fairly modern 13A sockets. Colors were red black only. Earth was via the metal conduit and was generally bare wired or green..there was a copper earth rod in the ground..possibly added by my father.. |
#25
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff. Just "twisted flex" or "lighting flex"? I don't know of any other names. -- Andy |
#26
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
In article ,
Andy Wade wrote: PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff. Just "twisted flex" or "lighting flex"? I don't know of any other names. I'm pretty certain it had a trade name. -- *Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?" Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#27
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:59:11 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Andy Wade wrote: PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff. Just "twisted flex" or "lighting flex"? I don't know of any other names. I'm pretty certain it had a trade name. Asbestolux? -- Frank Erskine |
#28
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
"Frank Erskine" wrote in message ... On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:59:11 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Andy Wade wrote: PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff. Just "twisted flex" or "lighting flex"? I don't know of any other names. I'm pretty certain it had a trade name. Asbestolux? -- Frank Erskine nah! That's garage siding and roofs ! AWEM |
#29
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Colours of 1950s wireing.
On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 22:36:10 -0000, "Andrew Mawson"
wrote: "Frank Erskine" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:59:11 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Andy Wade wrote: PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff. Just "twisted flex" or "lighting flex"? I don't know of any other names. I'm pretty certain it had a trade name. Asbestolux? -- Frank Erskine nah! That's garage siding and roofs ! It was some name like that then! -- Frank Erskine |
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