A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

On 2006-11-25 09:28:05 +0000, "
said:

A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

Are you going to pay by cash, cheque, credit card or financing vehicle?

In article . com,
wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

Forget that. I'd not pay the rest until after installation - and want a
buffer period to make sure there are no snags.

As regards a deposit, what safeguards are there against that deposit being
lost if the company goes broke?

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
ups.com...
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery


Don't pay on delivery - wait for installation.

wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

Most work on cash on delivery, no deposit. I've yet to hear of one
waiting for the cash until fitted !! as any problems could be down to
your fitting and most are, if the frames are bowed in or out with the
fixings then you will get problems with opening and closing, the frame
needs to "held" in place not screwed in overtight. good quality window
foam and two knock in fixings per side will do fine. I wouldn't pay a
deposit at all let alone 50%

If you mean custom-made windows on a supply-only basis, I would expect
to pay a substantial deposit.

However I would want some guarantees in relation to the delivery date -
late penalties (and that's a date for *completion* of the order), and I
would want to check out their financial status - asking for too large a
deposit could indicate they are in difficulty.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

Forget that. I'd not pay the rest until after installation - and want a
buffer period to make sure there are no snags.

As regards a deposit, what safeguards are there against that deposit being
lost if the company goes broke?


It all depends on who you are contracting with.

IF 'the company' is entitled $Something 'Ltd'; - that's a 'WARNING' that the
company's total liability is _limited_. Check Company's House for the limit
of their total liability.
If it's a partnership there's no limit to their liability - but presume that
'efry fings in the wife's name sniff'.

Giving a deposit places you at risk .... effectively you're an _unsecured
creditor_ and if 'the company folds you join the queue to pick over the
bones .... after HMRC ( nee Inland Revenue), National Insurance; ..... then
you.

That's tough , that's life !

--

Brian

wrote:
If you mean custom-made windows on a supply-only basis, I would expect
to pay a substantial deposit.

However I would want some guarantees in relation to the delivery date -
late penalties (and that's a date for *completion* of the order), and I
would want to check out their financial status - asking for too large a
deposit could indicate they are in difficulty.


Most windows are "custom made" unless you build your openings to a
standard size available, much easier to get them made to measure. I
still wouldnt pay a deposit, If they are made out of oak or sommat then
you might be expected to pay for the materials first, but not for any
PVC stuff

On 2006-11-25 10:28:19 +0000, "Brian Sharrock" said:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

Forget that. I'd not pay the rest until after installation - and want a
buffer period to make sure there are no snags.

As regards a deposit, what safeguards are there against that deposit being
lost if the company goes broke?


It all depends on who you are contracting with.

IF 'the company' is entitled $Something 'Ltd'; - that's a 'WARNING'
that the company's total liability is _limited_. Check Company's House
for the limit of their total liability.
If it's a partnership there's no limit to their liability - but presume
that 'efry fings in the wife's name sniff'.

Giving a deposit places you at risk .... effectively you're an
_unsecured creditor_ and if 'the company folds you join the queue to
pick over the bones .... after HMRC ( nee Inland Revenue), National
Insurance; ..... then you.

That's tough , that's life !

This is why it's important to use a credit card or something else
governed by the Consumer Credit Act. The issuer becomes jointly
liable even if the supplier goes broke. In tht sense, it doesn't
matter whether the supplier is a limited company, partnership or sole
trader.

In terms of deposits, I think that it does depend on the nature of the
product as well.

If the items are completely standard and not made specially to size
(i.e. would be usable elsewhere), then I think it's reasonable to
strike a harder bargain with the supplier in terms of deposit - perhaps
10% on order, a further 20% on delivery and the rest on *satisfactory*
completion.

If they are custom, then I think that it's reasonable for the supplier
to expect a larger proportion of the cost on order or on delivery -
perhaps 50% cumulatively at point of delivery.

In neither case would I go for a situation of having less than 50%
outstanding before completion.

The other thing is to agree the price *before* the payment terms.
Otherwise, if you push for a larger proportion on the back end, the
price may end up being higher. The supplier may be factoring the
payment schedule into his cash flow. Since there is a cost
associated with payment terms, that may affect the price and it could
be higher if he has to fund more of the cash flow. This doesn't
necessarily indicate financial difficulties on the part of the supplier
but could do if he is very insistant on it.

Most windows are "custom made" unless you build your openings to a
standard size available, much easier to get them made to measure. I
still wouldnt pay a deposit, If they are made out of oak or sommat then
you might be expected to pay for the materials first, but not for any
PVC stuff

Agreed. I was picturing some bespoke joinery.

Brian Sharrock wrote:
IF 'the company' is entitled $Something 'Ltd'; - that's a 'WARNING' that the
company's total liability is _limited_. Check Company's House for the limit
of their total liability.
If it's a partnership there's no limit to their liability - but presume that
'efry fings in the wife's name sniff'.

The limited in limited company refers to the liability of the
shareholders for the debts of the company, not the company's liability
to its customers. If something goes wrong you have claim on whatever the
company has (if anything) but only after the Tax Man, and the Bank etc.


--
djc

"djc" wrote in message
k...
Brian Sharrock wrote:
IF 'the company' is entitled $Something 'Ltd'; - that's a 'WARNING' that
the company's total liability is _limited_. Check Company's House for the
limit of their total liability.
If it's a partnership there's no limit to their liability - but presume
that 'efry fings in the wife's name sniff'.

The limited in limited company refers to the liability of the shareholders
for the debts of the company, not the company's liability to its
customers. If something goes wrong you have claim on whatever the company
has (if anything) but only after the Tax Man, and the Bank etc.

In my paragraph .above .. insert the word 'shareholders' ' between
'company's ' and 'total' to satisfy ' 's
comment. {whoever s/he is ! }

It should be understood that a 'company' is a juridical person separate from
it's shareholders whereby the Directors thereof are nominated by the
shareholders to act in the capacity of locutors for the company and are
empowered to enter contracts for and on behalf of 'the company' Any
practical difference between 'the shareholders' and the 'company' and their
respective liabilities is left as an exercise for the gentlemen(?) who asked
the question ' what's my prospect of getting back a deposit if the DG
'company' goes broke (?) {paraphrased].

--

Brian

'

wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

You don't really have a choice, you either pay the 50% or go elsewhere,
window manufacturers are sick to death of manufacturing a full set of rames
only to be stuck with them when the customer has a brainwave and decides to
move house instead, unless you are a trade customer, pay up, up front, I
doubt it's negotiable.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

Forget that. I'd not pay the rest until after installation - and want a
buffer period to make sure there are no snags.

He said it's a self install.

I very much doubt that you will find any supplier to accept
payment from a domestic customer any later than upon delivery.

tim

Phil L wrote:
wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

You don't really have a choice, you either pay the 50% or go elsewhere,
window manufacturers are sick to death of manufacturing a full set of rames
only to be stuck with them when the customer has a brainwave and decides to
move house instead, unless you are a trade customer, pay up, up front, I
doubt it's negotiable.

Quite right. Think of the overheads the firm has to pay for as well as
the product costs.

The only quibble you aught to have is when they deliver them, will they
fit the holes? Have a list of specifications ready for the delivery as
well as your cheque book. If they are the right size and fit the bill,
pay it.

But you should have had a look at some of their previous work to be
sure they are good at their job and called on an householder they
recommended as a referee. You should have got al that sorted when the
surveyor/rep called.

On 2006-11-25 16:01:13 +0000, "Weatherlawyer" said:


Phil L wrote:
wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

You don't really have a choice, you either pay the 50% or go elsewhere,
window manufacturers are sick to death of manufacturing a full set of rames
only to be stuck with them when the customer has a brainwave and decides to
move house instead, unless you are a trade customer, pay up, up front, I
doubt it's negotiable.

Quite right. Think of the overheads the firm has to pay for as well as
the product costs.

The only quibble you aught to have is when they deliver them, will they
fit the holes? Have a list of specifications ready for the delivery as
well as your cheque book.

Not the cheque book.......

Thanks for the many replies. The windows will be made to order. As I
said it, we will install the windows, but also, as some of you said, I
should wait until I have checked the windows before I pay the full
balance. How many times have I had people delivering things and then
running away with the cheque before I have even had the time to open
the box. Then if something is wrong I have to quickly make sure the
company is going to put it right and if they start giving trouble I
have to stop the cheque immediately, at which point the dispute starts.

I have had other quotes from people who have said they only want
payment on delivery but they are a bit more expensive and the windows
of this company look a bit better. I think that this company asking for
50% deposit are measuring us up in terms of how reliable we look. If
another couple told us that they paid only 5% or no deposit to the
company I would feel very insulted.

Since I am building the house I have accounts with a number of
suppliers and I pay them well after the delivery and checking of the
items so why should I not have the same arrangement with the windows
company? I can provide trade references

On 25 Nov 2006 01:28:05 -0800, wrote:

A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

I paid a £1 deposit when I had the windows done at my last place, full
payment after install when I had inspected the work.

I signed a contract, and their terms matched the reputation they wanted to
give out.

Steve

wrote:
Thanks for the many replies. The windows will be made to order. As I
said it, we will install the windows, but also, as some of you said, I
should wait until I have checked the windows before I pay the full
balance. How many times have I had people delivering things and then
running away with the cheque before I have even had the time to open
the box. Then if something is wrong I have to quickly make sure the
company is going to put it right and if they start giving trouble I
have to stop the cheque immediately, at which point the dispute starts.

I have had other quotes from people who have said they only want
payment on delivery but they are a bit more expensive and the windows
of this company look a bit better. I think that this company asking for
50% deposit are measuring us up in terms of how reliable we look. If
another couple told us that they paid only 5% or no deposit to the
company I would feel very insulted.

Since I am building the house I have accounts with a number of
suppliers and I pay them well after the delivery and checking of the
items so why should I not have the same arrangement with the windows
company? I can provide trade references

Many times on this group, I've recommended a small, two-man band of
double glazing installers (Sharbeck Windows of Preston, Lancashire). In
your case this isn't appropriate as you want to fit the new windows
yourself, but I know that Sharbeck don't manufacture the windows
themselves - they have their windows manufactured by a company called
Profile22 - http://www.profile22.co.uk/ - maybe it would be worth giving
them a call to ask about their terms and conditions?

John.

You got it in one, the manufacturer of the PVC windows is Profile 22.
Yes, I will go directly to them for a quote but I suspect that the
local installers get a lower price so it may end up being the same
price anyway.

Anybody with experience of going to the manufacturers directly?


Many times on this group, I've recommended a small, two-man band of
double glazing installers (Sharbeck Windows of Preston, Lancashire). In
your case this isn't appropriate as you want to fit the new windows
yourself, but I know that Sharbeck don't manufacture the windows
themselves - they have their windows manufactured by a company called
Profile22 - http://www.profile22.co.uk/ - maybe it would be worth giving
them a call to ask about their terms and conditions?

John.

wrote:
You got it in one, the manufacturer of the PVC windows is Profile 22.
Yes, I will go directly to them for a quote but I suspect that the
local installers get a lower price so it may end up being the same
price anyway.

Anybody with experience of going to the manufacturers directly?


This is what I thought you meant in the first place...why go to an installer
for supply only? - I've only ever bought direct from manufacturers, although
you can still expect to pay a deposit

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:01:41 +0000, Phil L wrote:

wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

You don't really have a choice, you either pay the 50% or go elsewhere,
window manufacturers are sick to death of manufacturing a full set of rames
only to be stuck with them when the customer has a brainwave and decides to
move house instead, unless you are a trade customer, pay up, up front, I
doubt it's negotiable.

It's is reasonable to pay a reasonable (c. 50%) deposit for items that are
made to measure (windows, suits).

It's unreasonable for the fitters to ask for more money until the work is
completed satisfactorily.

With a new customer I usually ask for money for materials up front. This
show commitment on their part and means that if they change their minds
(most unlikely _after_ they have made a deposit) they can have the goods
and I can walk away.

I usually invite the customer to hold back some money for snagging. This
is much better than them asking me if they could do so. Furthermore the
usual response is to decline (to save them making more than one payment)
and/or saying they know I'd come back if they're are any problems.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

Steve wrote:
On 25 Nov 2006 01:28:05 -0800, wrote:

A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home (we
will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this excessive
(and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

I paid a £1 deposit when I had the windows done at my last place, full
payment after install when I had inspected the work.

I signed a contract, and their terms matched the reputation they wanted to
give out.

Steve

Did you install them yourself?

On 2006-11-26 21:50:22 +0000, Ed Sirett said:

It's is reasonable to pay a reasonable (c. 50%) deposit for items that are
made to measure (windows, suits).
It's unreasonable for the fitters to ask for more money until the work is
completed satisfactorily.
With a new customer I usually ask for money for materials up front. This
show commitment on their part and means that if they change their minds
(most unlikely _after_ they have made a deposit) they can have the goods
and I can walk away.
I usually invite the customer to hold back some money for snagging. This
is much better than them asking me if they could do so. Furthermore the
usual response is to decline (to save them making more than one payment)
and/or saying they know I'd come back if they're are any problems.

I think that this is an excellent way to do business.

It protects the supplier in the case of a new customer, makes the
customer feel secure and yet still achieves the objective of payment at
the end of the work.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-11-26 21:50:22 +0000, Ed Sirett
said:

It's is reasonable to pay a reasonable (c. 50%) deposit for items
that are made to measure (windows, suits).
It's unreasonable for the fitters to ask for more money until the
work is completed satisfactorily.
With a new customer I usually ask for money for materials up front.
This show commitment on their part and means that if they change
their minds (most unlikely _after_ they have made a deposit) they
can have the goods and I can walk away.
I usually invite the customer to hold back some money for snagging.
This is much better than them asking me if they could do so.
Furthermore the usual response is to decline (to save them making
more than one payment) and/or saying they know I'd come back if
they're are any problems.

I think that this is an excellent way to do business.

It protects the supplier in the case of a new customer, makes the
customer feel secure and yet still achieves the objective of payment
at the end of the work.


And yet 'watchdog' type programmes say don't part with any money until the
job has been completed to satisfaction, and many customers try to take it
seriously

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:01:41 +0000, Phil L wrote:

wrote:
A company I want to use to supply a set of windows for my new home
(we will install them) wants 50% deposit with the order. Is this
excessive (and risky) for normal purchases of this type?
The other 50% is payable on delivery

You don't really have a choice, you either pay the 50% or go
elsewhere, window manufacturers are sick to death of manufacturing a
full set of rames only to be stuck with them when the customer has a
brainwave and decides to move house instead, unless you are a trade
customer, pay up, up front, I doubt it's negotiable.

It's is reasonable to pay a reasonable (c. 50%) deposit for items
that are made to measure (windows, suits).

It's unreasonable for the fitters to ask for more money until the
work is completed satisfactorily.

He's fitting them himself, although he seems to be doing all the work
himself, so how does he go on with doors, sockets, plumbing etc? - he can't
withold 50% of payment to these suppliers surely?

With a new customer I usually ask for money for materials up front.
This show commitment on their part and means that if they change
their minds (most unlikely _after_ they have made a deposit) they can
have the goods and I can walk away.

I usually start a job, dig out a few skipfuls of stuff and get a few days
into it before requesting money, this has usually been arranged prior to
starting work, the remainder is payable upon completion/satisfaction.


I usually invite the customer to hold back some money for snagging.
This is much better than them asking me if they could do so.
Furthermore the usual response is to decline (to save them making
more than one payment) and/or saying they know I'd come back if
they're are any problems.

I've never asked a customer to hold anything back and they've never tried,
it's made clear to them that if they're not happy with the job, they tell me
rather than anyone else and it will be put right.

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:20:19 GMT Phil L wrote :
And yet 'watchdog' type programmes say don't part with any money
until the job has been completed to satisfaction, and many customers
try to take it seriously

Watchdog et al might not want to accept it, but there are rogue
customers out there too. And any sensible contractor will want to
protect himself against unforseen eventualities like the customer
dying suddenly.

In my BCO days we had a first class builder on my patch, a couple of
brothers + hired labour who felt it quite beneath them to ask for any
money until the job had been completed to the customer's satisfaction
- which it invariably was. Then on one job Mrs Client took a live-in
lover and Mr C moved (probably involuntarily) out. Unfortunately they
were half way through a loft conversion and Mrs C had no money, nor
did the lover and Mr C refused to pay up until the divorce settlement
went through. After that they asked for stage payments.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:09:59 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote:

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:20:19 GMT Phil L wrote :
And yet 'watchdog' type programmes say don't part with any money
until the job has been completed to satisfaction, and many customers
try to take it seriously

Watchdog et al might not want to accept it, but there are rogue
customers out there too. And any sensible contractor will want to
protect himself against unforseen eventualities like the customer
dying suddenly.

In my BCO days we had a first class builder on my patch, a couple of
brothers + hired labour who felt it quite beneath them to ask for any
money until the job had been completed to the customer's satisfaction
- which it invariably was. Then on one job Mrs Client took a live-in
lover and Mr C moved (probably involuntarily) out. Unfortunately they
were half way through a loft conversion and Mrs C had no money, nor
did the lover and Mr C refused to pay up until the divorce settlement
went through. After that they asked for stage payments.


I've not had anyone back out of a job as big as a heating system upgrade.
But I have had people book up and make an appointment for something like
a new time switch. Only to be told on the day "We think we can live
without it!".


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards