I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40 on a
cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years occasional
use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance (presumably
I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Brands and models ideally.
Cheers

As far as I'm aware, you'll be looking at more than £40 for battery
longevity. Bascially cell quality and price go hand in hand. Li-ion
cells are becoming available in the professional market, with no memory
effect, but still way out of your budget for the time being.

OG wrote:

I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to ï½£40 on a
cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years occasional
use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance (presumably
I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Alas you have conflicting requirements... NiMh do not suffer memory
effects and hence be better for ad hock recharging from an unknown
state. However they often have worse auto discharge performance - hence
will tend to run flat sitting on a shelf even sooner than NiCd. The best
batteries for shelf life will be the newer Lith-Ion ones, but tools that
use those are not in the £40 bracket.

Your best bet might be a decent drill with good fast charger and two or
three batts, and just accept that if you pull it out of the cupboard
after six months of non use you will need to spend 20 mins charging it
first. Again getting the above for £40 is going to be a non starter (the
battery pack alone will cost that).

If youy could run to £60 then there are some that might fit your spec.
See the first one on the page he

http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/scripts/...0Drivers%2012V

FAQ on cordless tools:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/cordless.htm

And on drills:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/drill.htm


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote in message
oups.com...
As far as I'm aware, you'll be looking at more than £40 for battery
longevity. Bascially cell quality and price go hand in hand. Li-ion
cells are becoming available in the professional market, with no memory
effect, but still way out of your budget for the time being.

OK, so in your experience what would I pay for what I want, and what brand /
model would you recommend ?

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
OG wrote:

I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down
fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to ?40 on
a cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years
occasional use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance
(presumably I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Alas you have conflicting requirements... NiMh do not suffer memory
effects and hence be better for ad hock recharging from an unknown state.
However they often have worse auto discharge performance - hence will tend
to run flat sitting on a shelf even sooner than NiCd. The best batteries
for shelf life will be the newer Lith-Ion ones, but tools that use those
are not in the £40 bracket.

Hi John, thanks for the response.

I don't mind having a flat battery when I pick it up, because I'm quite good
at postponing a job for 24 hours (at least!) - so a slow charger and a
single battery would be OK, but I'm fed up with tools that need to be
replaced after just a couple of years occasional use.

I'd have thought that Li-Ion would be worse than NiMh for a long life as
Li-Ion have a built-in decay mechanism that limits them to 3 or 4 years only
(as iPod users know to their cost).


FAQ on cordless tools:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/cordless.htm

And on drills:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/drill.htm


I had already seen these, which is why I thought I'd ask for specific
recommendations here.

On Sun, 28 May 2006 16:47:48 +0100, OG wrote
(in article ):

I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40 on a
cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years occasional
use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance (presumably
I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Brands and models ideally.
Cheers



I don't think that you are going to get all of these requirements out of one
battery technology, let alone the price tag.

NiMh don't have the memory effect of NiCd batteries and will tolerate being
fast recharged from an arbitrary level of charge. However, they will
self-discharge.

Much of the price difference between entry level and reasonable quality
cordless tools is with the battery quality. The better ones, apart from
giving better results will tolerate more varied usage patterns

However, you need to be willing to spend £60-80 or so to get to that -
products such as the smaller Makita models with 12 or 14.4v batteries are
often on offer, or there are their entry level Maktec products.

The batteries on these will take a lot of abuse and can be replaced in years
to come if you need to do that - most of the major manufacturers keep the
same mechanical form factor for batteries for some years.

The other approach is to go for one of the Hu Flung Dung products, finding
one with a 2 or 3 year warranty, abuse the batteries as you like and expect
to return it to the store several times during the warranty period. If you
don't associate cost with the time taken in doing this, plus the actual
travel cost, then it could be reasonable. If you do, then you are going to
spend several times the difference between an HFD and a better product.

In article ,
OG wrote:
I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months
between use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it
down fully.

It's a myth you have to discharge Ni-Cads fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40 on
a cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years
occasional use out of without having to concentate on battery
maintenance (presumably I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Decent Ni-Cads hold a usable charge for a few months. If they're don't
they're faulty or poor quality. Unfortunately, NiMH don't hold a charge
as long. Weeks, more like. If you really must have a cordless drill that
is ready to go at any time in peak condition you'll need to arrange some
sort of timed charge.

--
*Eat well, stay fit, die anyway

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 28 May 2006 18:38:45 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sun, 28 May 2006 16:47:48 +0100, OG wrote
(in article ):

I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40 on a
cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years occasional
use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance (presumably
I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Brands and models ideally.
Cheers



I don't think that you are going to get all of these requirements out of one
battery technology, let alone the price tag.

NiMh don't have the memory effect of NiCd batteries

What is this 'memory effect' of which you speak? Is it the effect only
ecperienced when you are powering say a satelite from a battey solar
panel where the energy use & charge periods are highly repetitive?

And should you actually get into this state *one* change of charge /
discharge will break the 'effect' ..?

I have had Nicads in many forms and uses over many years and never
experienced this 'memory effect' ?

Of all the rerchargables I have had so far the Nicads have shown to be
the most durable ..

All the best ..

T i m

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote

Decent Ni-Cads hold a usable charge for a few months. If they're don't
they're faulty or poor quality. Unfortunately, NiMH don't hold a charge
as long. Weeks, more like. If you really must have a cordless drill that
is ready to go at any time in peak condition you'll need to arrange some
sort of timed charge.


I have a cheap (£20) cordless drill that came with two batteries.

The problem that I have with infrequent use is that the charger is a one
shot operation. It charges up the battery when it is placed in the
holder but once charged it switches off forever allowing the battery to
self discharge over time. This usually results in both batteries having
a low charge when required for that quick unexpected job.

I am contemplating opening up the charger to see if I can find a
suitable way of adding a diode/resistor to allow a constant trickle
charge.
--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

OG wrote:
I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to ?40 on a
cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years occasional
use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance (presumably
I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Completely ignoring your question, in the finest traditions of usenet.

20-30 quid of extension flex, and 10-20 quid of mains drill will
generally work much better for occasional use.
It depends where you do your DIY of course.
Personally, I've never found dragging an extension cord out for the
occasional job to be a problem.
Something to consider.

On Sun, 28 May 2006 18:58:52 +0100, T i m wrote
(in article ):

On Sun, 28 May 2006 18:38:45 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sun, 28 May 2006 16:47:48 +0100, OG wrote
(in article ):

I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40 on a
cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years occasional
use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance (presumably
I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Brands and models ideally.
Cheers



I don't think that you are going to get all of these requirements out of
one
battery technology, let alone the price tag.

NiMh don't have the memory effect of NiCd batteries

What is this 'memory effect' of which you speak? Is it the effect only
ecperienced when you are powering say a satelite from a battey solar
panel where the energy use & charge periods are highly repetitive?

And should you actually get into this state *one* change of charge /
discharge will break the 'effect' ..?

Voltage depletion is probably a more accurate term, but most people haven't
heard of that, so "memory effect" has become used to refer to a number of
phenomena that cause problems where poor quality NiCds are charged
inappropriately with poor quality chargers.




I have had Nicads in many forms and uses over many years and never
experienced this 'memory effect' ?

Of all the rerchargables I have had so far the Nicads have shown to be
the most durable ..

Provided that they are good quality ones, properly charged with a decent
charger then that may well be true.

That isn't the application here though.




All the best ..

T i m

OG wrote:

I don't mind having a flat battery when I pick it up, because I'm quite good
at postponing a job for 24 hours (at least!) - so a slow charger and a

In which case a good tool with decent quality NiCds would probably do
what you want. I would stear clear of slow chargers though since most of
these are crude. A decent delta peak detecting charger will still be
able to fast charge a partially discharged cell without cooking it.

single battery would be OK, but I'm fed up with tools that need to be
replaced after just a couple of years occasional use.

The advantage of more than one is continous working. You can also get
the thing out of store, stick one on charge and set about working with
whatever charge remains in the other one.

I'd have thought that Li-Ion would be worse than NiMh for a long life as
Li-Ion have a built-in decay mechanism that limits them to 3 or 4 years only
(as iPod users know to their cost).

Long life is different again from auto discharge. Left for six weeks the
LiIon will hold more charge than a NiMh. As to which has the longer
total life all other things being equal I am not sure.

I had already seen these, which is why I thought I'd ask for specific
recommendations here.

As Andy said, 12V or 14V entry level pro tool, and look about for
special offers.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 28 May 2006 19:57:15 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:



NiMh don't have the memory effect of NiCd batteries

What is this 'memory effect' of which you speak? Is it the effect only
ecperienced when you are powering say a satelite from a battey solar
panel where the energy use & charge periods are highly repetitive?

And should you actually get into this state *one* change of charge /
discharge will break the 'effect' ..?

Voltage depletion is probably a more accurate term, but most people haven't
heard of that, so "memory effect" has become used to refer to a number of
phenomena that cause problems where poor quality NiCds are charged
inappropriately with poor quality chargers.


Ok .. (we could give the viewer the benefit of the doubt not propogate
a myth / poor terms though eh ...) ;-)


I have had Nicads in many forms and uses over many years and never
experienced this 'memory effect' ?

Of all the rerchargables I have had so far the Nicads have shown to be
the most durable ..

Provided that they are good quality ones, properly charged with a decent
charger then that may well be true.

That isn't the application here though.

Isn't it? I suggest (within reason) any production battery / charger /
portable drill used *properly* will do what the OP requires but none
will do what he hoped ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

OK, so in your experience what would I pay for what I want, and what brand /
model would you recommend ?

Basically the pro stuff probably starts around £75-80, and as far as
I'm aware they're all pretty good. You should get a fast charger and a
couple of batteries (which means the flat one will recharge before you
exhaust the in-use one).

There's quite a few discounts about - bosch (the pro blue stuff) and
makita are the sector leaders - but don't overlook the others -
hitachi, fein(very nice), panasonic etc.

Here's the kind of thing I mean:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...43112&id=30227

On Sun, 28 May 2006 19:12:34 +0100, Alan
wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote

Decent Ni-Cads hold a usable charge for a few months. If they're don't
they're faulty or poor quality. Unfortunately, NiMH don't hold a charge
as long. Weeks, more like. If you really must have a cordless drill that
is ready to go at any time in peak condition you'll need to arrange some
sort of timed charge.


I have a cheap (£20) cordless drill that came with two batteries.

The problem that I have with infrequent use is that the charger is a one
shot operation. It charges up the battery when it is placed in the
holder but once charged it switches off forever allowing the battery to
self discharge over time. This usually results in both batteries having
a low charge when required for that quick unexpected job.

I am contemplating opening up the charger to see if I can find a
suitable way of adding a diode/resistor to allow a constant trickle
charge.

Try plugging it in via a cheap 7 day time switch set up to apply power
once or twice per week.

Hopefully when the power comes back on it will restart from square
one. Unless there is *Charge" button you have to press to initiate
charging. :-(

DG

The message
from Alan contains these words:

The problem that I have with infrequent use is that the charger is a one
shot operation. It charges up the battery when it is placed in the
holder but once charged it switches off forever allowing the battery to
self discharge over time.

Wish mine did that. Instead it charges forever, which if you forget to
stop it doesn't do the batteries any good.

You could use a 7-day timer to start it over again once a week.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On Sun, 28 May 2006 20:04:52 +0100, T i m wrote
(in article ):

On Sun, 28 May 2006 19:57:15 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:



NiMh don't have the memory effect of NiCd batteries

What is this 'memory effect' of which you speak? Is it the effect only
ecperienced when you are powering say a satelite from a battey solar
panel where the energy use & charge periods are highly repetitive?

And should you actually get into this state *one* change of charge /
discharge will break the 'effect' ..?

Voltage depletion is probably a more accurate term, but most people haven't
heard of that, so "memory effect" has become used to refer to a number of
phenomena that cause problems where poor quality NiCds are charged
inappropriately with poor quality chargers.


Ok .. (we could give the viewer the benefit of the doubt not propogate
a myth / poor terms though eh ...) ;-)

Point taken





I have had Nicads in many forms and uses over many years and never
experienced this 'memory effect' ?

Of all the rerchargables I have had so far the Nicads have shown to be
the most durable ..

Provided that they are good quality ones, properly charged with a decent
charger then that may well be true.

That isn't the application here though.

Isn't it? I suggest (within reason) any production battery / charger /
portable drill used *properly* will do what the OP requires but none
will do what he hoped ;-)

The trouble is that the hoped for use and doesn't equate very well to
"properly", and will be exacerbated in an entry level product

In message , Derek ^
wrote

I am contemplating opening up the charger to see if I can find a
suitable way of adding a diode/resistor to allow a constant trickle
charge.

Try plugging it in via a cheap 7 day time switch set up to apply power
once or twice per week.

Been there - it doesn't work. It appears that the only way of switching
it to a charge cycle is to physically fit the battery into the holder.

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

On Sun, 28 May 2006 20:23:39 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


I have had Nicads in many forms and uses over many years and never
experienced this 'memory effect' ?

Of all the rerchargables I have had so far the Nicads have shown to be
the most durable ..

Provided that they are good quality ones, properly charged with a decent
charger then that may well be true.

That isn't the application here though.

Isn't it? I suggest (within reason) any production battery / charger /
portable drill used *properly* will do what the OP requires but none
will do what he hoped ;-)

The trouble is that the hoped for use and doesn't equate very well to
"properly", and will be exacerbated in an entry level product

True, possibly so with a *very* cheap one?

A thought though .. is there a factory somewhere that actually
bothers to turn out completely duff cells or are they all going to be
useable these days (not prime steak but useable nonetheless)?

I have several sets of *cheap* 7.2V nicad packs that are quite old
(~10 years) have been used both hard and intermittently (fast charge
rates then left unmaintained for *years*) and they are still up to
spec (according to my cycler).

Morse frustrating is some of the cheaper (unbranded) cells seem in
better fettle than some Sanyo's of the same age / useage? ;-(

So, is it possible that yer 20 quid with 2 batteries and a reasonable
auto charger / reversable / keyless market cordless would perform
similarly well (for the op) as a 200 quid one might (re self discharge
/ battery life etc). I know the one I bought does ..?

I'm not suggesting there isn't a difference here of course .. you
generally 'get's what ya pays for' but sometimes the 'white label'
stuff has the same contents the fancy wrapper .. ?

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. My De-Walt cordless has been a pretty good workhorse but both
batteries will be (nearly) flat if left for a long time (but will
liven up within a couple of cycles) ;-)

OG wrote:
I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down fully.

Why, to the latter?


Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40 on a
cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years occasional
use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance (presumably
I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Buy new cells and re-do the battery.

On Sun, 28 May 2006 16:47:48 +0100, "OG"
wrote:

I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40 on a
cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years occasional
use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance (presumably
I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Brands and models ideally.
Cheers

Hi,

NiCd should hold charge fine, one thing that can really stuff battery
packs is using them until exhaustion as one or more cells may get
reverse charged.

So best go for something with 2 or more packs, use in rotation and
charge AS SOON as they start to fade.

That way you already have a fully charged pack standing by, so even if
the one in the drill hasn't much charge it doesn't matter.

Two gears are well worth having too, giving better torque or speed
which can help battery life.

Find the best deal you can on something like a Makita, then the same
for a cheap make, and then decide if the extra money is worth it or
not.

cheers,
Pete.

OG wrote:

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40
on a cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years
occasional use out of without having to concentate on battery
maintenance (presumably I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Wickes have an 18v hammer drill driver with a 2 speed gearbox and a one hour
charger for £26.49 and you get a 2 year warranty. The Wickes stuff is
pretty good for the money IMO.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On Sun, 28 May 2006 19:57:15 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Voltage depletion is probably a more accurate term,

Voltage depression if you really want to be accurate. It is caused
by overcharging - nothing whatsoever to do with the mythical "memory
effect".

but most people haven't
heard of that, so "memory effect" has become used to refer to a number of
phenomena that cause problems where poor quality NiCds are charged
inappropriately with poor quality chargers.

Which of course affects NiMH far more severely than NiCd.

Of all the rerchargables I have had so far the Nicads have shown to be
the most durable ..

Provided that they are good quality ones, properly charged with a decent
charger then that may well be true.

NiCd is always more durable than NiMH with an equivalent quality (or
lack of) charger. The ones to avoid are the "5 hr" chargers. NiCd
can be happily charged at a 10 hour rate with almost anything, and
will tolerate 36 hours at this rate quite happily. NiMH won't.
Either, with an appropriately designed charger, can charge in
anything from 30 mins to an hour - but it reduces cell life, more so
for NiMH than NiCd. In any situation NiMH is good for about half the
number of recharge cycles of a similar NiCd battery.

The problem with the 5hr (or thereabouts) chargers is that they are
essentially uncontrolled and a 5 hour rate cannot be sustained for
any length of time without damaging the battery. Used with a time
switch they are adequate but no more. The safest way of charging
batteries, and the one which gives best battery life, is to charge at
one tenth of the cell capacity for about 11 hours.







--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Sun, 28 May 2006 21:09:15 +0100, T i m wrote
(in article ):

On Sun, 28 May 2006 20:23:39 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


I have had Nicads in many forms and uses over many years and never
experienced this 'memory effect' ?

Of all the rerchargables I have had so far the Nicads have shown to be
the most durable ..

Provided that they are good quality ones, properly charged with a decent
charger then that may well be true.

That isn't the application here though.

Isn't it? I suggest (within reason) any production battery / charger /
portable drill used *properly* will do what the OP requires but none
will do what he hoped ;-)

The trouble is that the hoped for use and doesn't equate very well to
"properly", and will be exacerbated in an entry level product

True, possibly so with a *very* cheap one?

A thought though .. is there a factory somewhere that actually
bothers to turn out completely duff cells or are they all going to be
useable these days (not prime steak but useable nonetheless)?

For products sold on price, certainly. The retailers demand quite
substantial margin so it's not hard to work backwards.



I have several sets of *cheap* 7.2V nicad packs that are quite old
(~10 years) have been used both hard and intermittently (fast charge
rates then left unmaintained for *years*) and they are still up to
spec (according to my cycler).

Morse frustrating is some of the cheaper (unbranded) cells seem in
better fettle than some Sanyo's of the same age / useage? ;-(

Who knows? A couple of years ago when the industry norm was 12 and 14.4v
tools and was just starting to add 18v ones, Panasonic came out with a 15.6v
product. It outperformed and outlasted 14.4v products from other vendors ,
which is not surprising. What was surprising was that it outperformed
almost all 18v products apart from the very high end ones. The reason was
the battery technology.




So, is it possible that yer 20 quid with 2 batteries and a reasonable
auto charger / reversable / keyless market cordless would perform
similarly well (for the op) as a 200 quid one might (re self discharge
/ battery life etc). I know the one I bought does ..?

It depends on your criteria. The OP's were battery longevity in the face
of little care and occasional use. Other issues such as precision,
control, ease of use, ergonomics, service and spares were not mentioned, but
reasonably would not be expected in an entry level product.

If one spends £200, all of those things can be expected and obtained as well.
For £60-80 one can get something with reasonably good batteries that will
last well.



I'm not suggesting there isn't a difference here of course .. you
generally 'get's what ya pays for' but sometimes the 'white label'
stuff has the same contents the fancy wrapper .. ?

TTI are masters of that.




All the best ..

T i m

p.s. My De-Walt cordless has been a pretty good workhorse but both
batteries will be (nearly) flat if left for a long time (but will
liven up within a couple of cycles) ;-)

Owain wrote:
Ian Stirling wrote:
Completely ignoring your question, in the finest traditions of usenet.
20-30 quid of extension flex, and 10-20 quid of mains drill ...

Says something when the cost of the flex is more than the cost of the
drill...

True.
The copper is a substantial fraction of the cost of the flex though.

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Wickes have an 18v hammer drill driver with a 2 speed gearbox and a one hour
charger for ï½£26.49 and you get a 2 year warranty. The Wickes stuff is
pretty good for the money IMO.

Grey or Black plastic?

(The grey stuff is often a decent brand with a wickes badge on it, the
black tends to be run of the mill Chinese stuff)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
The problem with the 5hr (or thereabouts) chargers is that they are
essentially uncontrolled and a 5 hour rate cannot be sustained for
any length of time without damaging the battery. Used with a time
switch they are adequate but no more. The safest way of charging
batteries, and the one which gives best battery life, is to charge at
one tenth of the cell capacity for about 11 hours.

I have to agree. *Any* fast charger - don't care how clever - shortens the
service life of Ni-Cads. Of course a nasty fast charger even more.

--
*Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Wickes have an 18v hammer drill driver with a 2 speed gearbox and a one hour
charger for £26.49 and you get a 2 year warranty. The Wickes stuff is
pretty good for the money IMO.

Does it come with two batteries? Having two is really useful.

On Sun, 28 May 2006 23:53:57 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
The problem with the 5hr (or thereabouts) chargers is that they are
essentially uncontrolled and a 5 hour rate cannot be sustained for
any length of time without damaging the battery. Used with a time
switch they are adequate but no more. The safest way of charging
batteries, and the one which gives best battery life, is to charge at
one tenth of the cell capacity for about 11 hours.

I have to agree. *Any* fast charger - don't care how clever - shortens the
service life of Ni-Cads. Of course a nasty fast charger even more.

I had this exact discussion with Ansmann Chargers and a couple of
battery suppliers.

Terms like 'Fast Charge' or 'Ultrafast Charge' seemed to go against
the recommendations on the cells themselves?

The bottom line from them all ... "Yes, fast charging will generally
sod up yer cells but that's what folk want (fast charge cycles) and
they don't mind buying new ones .." ;-(

eg, I have an Ansmann PowerLine5 and that 'according to Ansmann' is
such a charger .. cells coming off the charger pretty hot (not a good
way to treat cells).The Energy16 however seems to be geared to
treating them more gently (test, test discharge, *moderate rate* bulk
charge, deltaV, trickle etc).

Most of my RC cells (TX, RX, power) were charged at the C/10 rate and
I even built am 8 way constant current charger to do so ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

T i m wrote:

I had this exact discussion with Ansmann Chargers and a couple of
battery suppliers.

Terms like 'Fast Charge' or 'Ultrafast Charge' seemed to go against
the recommendations on the cells themselves?

The bottom line from them all ... "Yes, fast charging will generally
sod up yer cells but that's what folk want (fast charge cycles) and
they don't mind buying new ones .." ;-(

There is another angle as well... I was speaking to a bunch of fast
electric boat nuts once[1]. They were all of the opinion that you should
never slow charge a racing pack, since all they care about is getting
the ultimate current delivery from the cells and are not to fussed over
their longevity. They believed that always fast charging resulted in
better high current delivery.

[1] These were however into the serious anorak class! A model boat
regatta / event had attracted them, and they were camping overnight in
the park. A bunch of the sub 2kg class were whizzing round the lake
trying to avoid getting run over by my 10kg / 4 times the size 10cc IC
engine boat! ;-) I went and had a chat with some of them after. There
was one chap who came with a boat he had specially designed to have a
crack at a world record which is run round a 500m length course
(apparently the Chinese held the record at something like 9 seconds!).
His hand made, computer matched, 36 cell battery pack was designed to
deliver power at a steady 2kW. After each run he drained the pack into a
string of light bulbs, while monitoring the individual cell voltages.
Then individually discharged each cell down to 1V with an old moving
iron meter. Then finally fast charged using a combination of delta V and
temperature sensing. Nice boat (all carbon fibre etc weighed "nothing"),
serious 12 pole lekky motor etc. Alas I missed the entertainment the
following day when he demoed its performance and sank it! ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

Wickes have an 18v hammer drill driver with a 2 speed gearbox and a
one hour charger for £26.49 and you get a 2 year warranty. The
Wickes stuff is pretty good for the money IMO.

Grey or Black plastic?

This is the black one. Chinese probably but 18v with a one hour charger it
could well meet the OP's needs.

(The grey stuff is often a decent brand with a wickes badge on it, the
black tends to be run of the mill Chinese stuff)

I bought the 14.4v grey combi drill driver recently. 2 x 2 a/h batteries,
3 year warranty, Jacobs chuck, Johnson motor at around £80. Very pleased
with it.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

Chris Bacon wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Wickes have an 18v hammer drill driver with a 2 speed gearbox and a
one hour charger for £26.49 and you get a 2 year warranty. The
Wickes stuff is pretty good for the money IMO.

Does it come with two batteries? Having two is really useful.

For £26 you are lucky to get one battery :-)


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:

(The grey stuff is often a decent brand with a wickes badge on it, the
black tends to be run of the mill Chinese stuff)


I bought the 14.4v grey combi drill driver recently. 2 x 2 a/h batteries,
3 year warranty, Jacobs chuck, Johnson motor at around ï½£80. Very pleased
with it.

I was eyeing up a grey router that was obviously a badged Freud FT2000E
once... only problem was the price - they wanted more for it than
Screwfix did for the Freud!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

Wickes have an 18v hammer drill driver with a 2 speed gearbox and a
one hour charger for £26.49 and you get a 2 year warranty. The
Wickes stuff is pretty good for the money IMO.

Does it come with two batteries? Having two is really useful.

For £26 you are lucky to get one battery :-)

I got a cordless drill from Aldi, 2 batteries + "one hour" charger,
for £22ish ISTR, but the batteries are 18v, 1.2AH so don't last as
long. It hasn't had the "hammering" that a similarly-sourced SDS
drill has had, but it's not too bad for the price. ISTR "Johnson
motor" was mentioned as a selling point. No idea what make the
keyless chuck is.

On Mon, 29 May 2006 18:19:18 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

T i m wrote:

I had this exact discussion with Ansmann Chargers and a couple of
battery suppliers.

Terms like 'Fast Charge' or 'Ultrafast Charge' seemed to go against
the recommendations on the cells themselves?

The bottom line from them all ... "Yes, fast charging will generally
sod up yer cells but that's what folk want (fast charge cycles) and
they don't mind buying new ones .." ;-(

There is another angle as well... I was speaking to a bunch of fast
electric boat nuts once[1]. They were all of the opinion that you should
never slow charge a racing pack, since all they care about is getting
the ultimate current delivery from the cells and are not to fussed over
their longevity. They believed that always fast charging resulted in
better high current delivery.

And I agree there is some mileage to that one John (but choose a
compromise myself even on racing packs). It's all well going off like
a rocket as long as you are still there at the end of the race ;-)

[1] These were however into the serious anorak class! A model boat
regatta / event had attracted them, and they were camping overnight in
the park.

Ok, nothing wrong so far ... ;-)

A bunch of the sub 2kg class were whizzing round the lake
trying to avoid getting run over by my 10kg / 4 times the size 10cc IC
engine boat! ;-)

Or drenched from the 'rooster tail' off the back of my Webra 61R /
Agnew 'Z' drive powered catamaran! ;-)

I went and had a chat with some of them after. There
was one chap who came with a boat he had specially designed to have a
crack at a world record which is run round a 500m length course
(apparently the Chinese held the record at something like 9 seconds!).

Eeek!

His hand made, computer matched, 36 cell battery pack was designed to
deliver power at a steady 2kW. After each run he drained the pack into a
string of light bulbs, while monitoring the individual cell voltages.

Yup, have done similar myself .. not these days though ..

Then individually discharged each cell down to 1V with an old moving
iron meter.

Mine is a suitably sized ww shunt restistor in a little ally box with
basic voltmeter calibrated in amps (10A FSD) fitted on the top. I
touch / hold that across each cell till I see it start to drop from
10A .. seems to work ok ;-)

Then finally fast charged using a combination of delta V and
temperature sensing. Nice boat (all carbon fibre etc weighed "nothing"),
serious 12 pole lekky motor etc. Alas I missed the entertainment the
following day when he demoed its performance and sank it! ;-)

Doh! ;-(

I only lost the lid off the cat when it back flipped at speed (Donald
Campell stylee). *Luckily* there were some lads swimming nearby who
fancied a challenge and recovered it for me! ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

"OG" wrote in message
...
I've just decided the cheap and nasty cordless drill isn't ever going to
suddenly hold better charge. The trouble is that it can go months between
use, and a NiCd battery is not ideal if you never really run it down
fully.

Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40 on a
cordless chuckless drill that I can expect to get several years occasional
use out of without having to concentate on battery maintenance (presumably
I'd be looking at NiMh for that).

Brands and models ideally.
Cheers

Thanks for all the feedback, looks like there's not much chance of getting a
decent unit in my pricerange. However, I was inspired to open up the power
pack and can see that at least one of the old cells has 'burst', which is
presumably why there is practically no power left in it.

Given that most units have the same general shape I wonder if I could get a
stand alone 18V replacement unit from another brand and swap the cells so I
can use them in my existing machine. Anyone tried this?

There is a very similar looking unit at
http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp...18035v-Cp1801v

OG wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback, looks like there's not much chance of getting a
decent unit in my pricerange. However, I was inspired to open up the power
pack and can see that at least one of the old cells has 'burst', which is
presumably why there is practically no power left in it.

Given that most units have the same general shape I wonder if I could get a
stand alone 18V replacement unit from another brand and swap the cells so I
can use them in my existing machine. Anyone tried this?

For the price, I'd be inclined to look around for another cheap one,
with two batteries and fast charger. They do exist. If you can wait
a month or two, keep an eye on some well-known discount supermarkets.

You could even look at:

http://www.tesco.com/electrical/Product.aspx?R=8229406

although the machines from WKDS could well be half the price. For
instance, I bought a cement mixer at Aldi for £130, offered by
Tesco for £200!

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 May 2006 16:47:48 +0100, OG wrote
(in article ):



Is anyone aware of a decent brand where I can look to spend up to £40 on
a
cordless chuckless ..................

Can I suggest you forget the chuckless idea, they all come with a chuck, if
you wish you can always remove it yourself. :-)

T i m wrote:

Or drenched from the 'rooster tail' off the back of my Webra 61R /
Agnew 'Z' drive powered catamaran! ;-)

Not used my boat for years alas, but one day when there is time (or an
offspring of suitable age and interest to prompt having another go) I
quite fancy having a go at a surface piercing prop setup.

Doh! ;-(

I only lost the lid off the cat when it back flipped at speed (Donald
Campell stylee). *Luckily* there were some lads swimming nearby who
fancied a challenge and recovered it for me! ;-)

My most memorable mishap happened on bank holiday Monday. The park was
full of people, loads of other boats there. Anyway, set the boat in the
water, started it, tuned it up, set it off, and then worked out that in
spite of it *appearing* to have responded to throttle control when I
tuned it, the receiver was in fact turned off! There was a feeling of
impending doom as it sped off at three quarter throttle toward the far
bank (a vertical concrete wall) and there was nothing I could do to
change its speed or direction. So I put the transmitter down and started
legging it round the lake. The bang when it hit the far wall was enough
to gain the attention of everyone there. As I got within 20m of it, I
was able to deduce several things: one it had bounced some 3m from the
bank and I could not reach it, second its engine was still running, but
it was not moving so the prop coupling must have broken, three that
meant no water cooling for the engine, and a good likelihood of it
ending up knackered if something was not done about it PDQ. So I carried
on running, jumped into the lake, and stuck my finger over the air
intake to stop the engine. All to a loud cheer and round of applause
from the assembled crowd!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

OG wrote:

Thanks for all the feedback, looks like there's not much chance of getting a
decent unit in my pricerange. However, I was inspired to open up the power
pack and can see that at least one of the old cells has 'burst', which is
presumably why there is practically no power left in it.

How about:

http://www.re-cell.co.uk/


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/