On 13 Feb 2006 03:17:37 -0800, "Kev" wrote:


Where are we expected to save up all this waste to make a bulk run to
the tip with.

Granted it's not 'easy' but then we are trying to save a planet here
;-)

We have bought a couple of extra dustbins and put crushed plastic milk
bottles on one and paper in the other. The cardboard get's torn up and
goes in a big carrier bag under the stairs. If any are sufficiently
full they get taken to the recycling place outside the music centre as
we drop the kid there on Sat mornings.

Like they are making manufacturers responsible for accepting equipment
back at 'end of life' we should also be responsible re aquiring and
disposing of our belongings?

The tube goes so I get a new tube leaving the old one to
be disposed of. It isn't exactly the sort of thing that you can leave
lieing around. In fact I am surprised that a council that is so pc just
left it on the side of the drive where my children could have stood on
it or the local children played light sabres with it.

It is sometimes difficult to do the 'right thing' and others can also
be fallable .. ;-(

I did notice when throwing the cardboard tube out that there is a
useful wheelie bin symbol with a cross through it but nothing to say
how it should actually be disposed of.

Because that may have been made in China / India and they don't know
what our facilities are?

We often do research when buying stuff (price / suitability / value
etc) so shouldn't we (not particularly Kevin, *we*) also put some
effort into getting rid of it correctly? (responsibility of ownership
etc) ?

Perhaps something more prominent
would be useful as I had never realised that tubes were such a hazard.

Well, them along with fridges / freezers, tyres, batteries etc etc.

I only visit the tip once a year if that so having a tube lieing around
all that time is not really on.

Anyone around that goes to the dump regularly that you could ask
nicely .. ? I know I often end up collecting stuff from Mum / friends
on the way to the dump. I don't mind as it make my (short) journey
more 'efficient' and ensures the stuff get's processed properly ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

Kev wrote:

Where are we expected to save up all this waste to make a bulk run to
the tip with. The tube goes so I get a new tube leaving the old one to
be disposed of. It isn't exactly the sort of thing that you can leave
lieing around.

You need to wise up. Life's changing, especially where waste is
concerned.

If you think that one measly tube is such a pain to find room for,
wait 'til your local council forces you to have a wheelie bin, a box
for glass and bottles, a box for plastic bottles, a box for paper and
carboard, a box for tins and cans, and a composter for kitchen waste.
Find room for that lot in a small garden. And a £1000 fine for
non-compliance if you get the wrong item in the wrong bin, put the
bins out on the wrong day, too early on the collection day, fail to
get them off the street after being emptied, or leave non-standard
itms by the bins for collection.

Dramatic? Most of this is already implimented somewhere or other in
the UK, not necessarily all in one place. Stop whinging, it's going to
get worse (or better, depending on your POV).

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:01:33 +0000, Kate wrote:

If you think that one measly tube is such a pain to find room for,
wait 'til your local council forces you to have a wheelie bin, a box
for glass and bottles, a box for plastic bottles, a box for paper and
carboard, a box for tins and cans, and a composter for kitchen waste.
Find room for that lot in a small garden. And a £1000 fine for
non-compliance if you get the wrong item in the wrong bin, put the
bins out on the wrong day, too early on the collection day, fail to
get them off the street after being emptied, or leave non-standard
itms by the bins for collection.

Dramatic? Most of this is already implimented somewhere or other in
the UK, not necessarily all in one place. Stop whinging, it's going to
get worse (or better, depending on your POV).

I believe some areas charge five quid or summat per trip to the tip?

I saw on Telly yesterday the idea of removing waste collection from
the local taxes and us being charged invividually for the amount of
waste we put out for collection.

That would work fine for most of us (who would take the responsibility
of that onboard) but I forsee 'Merc 4X4 driver' simply stacking his
rubbish bags outside someone elses house (I've seen a local one get
their kids to do just that because they don't want the bags outside
their own house for 4 days (because they can't bear to have them out
back where I have a pad of concrete and they have a wooden patio,
sunlounger, B-b-q and pergoda)) so they can spend the money saved on
(another) 2 weeks in Ibetha .. ?

I wonder if it's ever crossed their minds what they will be leaving
for their kids ... ?

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. My mother in law lives on her own in a small flat and my wife
spends every Sat with her (taking her shopping, cleaning the budgies,
putting the hoover round etc etc). Every week she comes home with
*her* cardboard, plastic bottles, papers, tins .... ;-)

Kate wrote in message
news

Kev wrote:

Where are we expected to save up all this waste to make a bulk run to
the tip with. The tube goes so I get a new tube leaving the old one to
be disposed of. It isn't exactly the sort of thing that you can leave
lieing around.

You need to wise up. Life's changing, especially where waste is
concerned.

If you think that one measly tube is such a pain to find room for,
wait 'til your local council forces you to have a wheelie bin, a box
for glass and bottles, a box for plastic bottles, a box for paper and
carboard, a box for tins and cans, and a composter for kitchen waste.
Find room for that lot in a small garden. And a £1000 fine for
non-compliance if you get the wrong item in the wrong bin, put the
bins out on the wrong day, too early on the collection day, fail to
get them off the street after being emptied, or leave non-standard
itms by the bins for collection.

After 18 years of dustbins and bin bags we've just gone over to wheely bins
in sunny Chalfont. A black one for normal waste, a green one for kitchen and
garden waste plus the boxes for glass and paper. Nothing for tins and
plastic yet thank god. I love the wheely bins though, especially the green
one. Instead of having to take car loads of tree prunings to the tip they
just get collected by the lorry every two weeks. It's giving me the
opportunity to hack all the overgrown shrubs down to size and as no one
usually puts much in their green bins I can borrow neighbours ones and fill
those up too.

As for the glass and paper, those boxes got used for general storage the
minute they arrived and I just go to the bottle bank in the village carpark
when I do the shopping. Easier than trying to remember which week to put
which box out.
--
Dave Baker


*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:01:33 +0000, Kate wrote:

If you think that one measly tube is such a pain to find room for,
wait 'til your local council forces you to have a wheelie bin, a box
for glass and bottles, a box for plastic bottles, a box for paper and
carboard, a box for tins and cans, and a composter for kitchen waste.
Find room for that lot in a small garden. And a £1000 fine for
non-compliance if you get the wrong item in the wrong bin, put the
bins out on the wrong day, too early on the collection day, fail to
get them off the street after being emptied, or leave non-standard
itms by the bins for collection.

Dramatic? Most of this is already implimented somewhere or other in
the UK, not necessarily all in one place. Stop whinging, it's going to
get worse (or better, depending on your POV).

Just dump everything in the wheelie bin, no sorting required. The
council will most likely just ship off the plastic to the far east,
the glass and paper are usually a complete waste of money to collect
in the first place. The only thing of any real value are the aluminium
cans. Not generating the waste in the first place is a much better
solution but if in doubt chuck it in the normal bin - landfill
conveniently fills up dangerous holes in the ground that children
could fall in.


--

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:43:32 +0000, Matt wrote:

landfill conveniently fills up dangerous holes in the ground that
children could fall in.

But this government is about to whap hefty "fines" on councils that use
landfill and don't meet the governments recycling targets. So if you are
willing to have another 10% on your council tax go ahead...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Kate wrote:

Kev wrote:


Where are we expected to save up all this waste to make a bulk run to
the tip with. The tube goes so I get a new tube leaving the old one to
be disposed of. It isn't exactly the sort of thing that you can leave
lieing around.


You need to wise up. Life's changing, especially where waste is
concerned.

If you think that one measly tube is such a pain to find room for,
wait 'til your local council forces you to have a wheelie bin

Ours have the option of giving us bin liners. If they tried to force us
to have a wheelie bin, I would have to charge them ground rent, as I
have just enough space to park 2/3 cars side by side on my front.

a box
for glass and bottles,

Got one of those, we use it to store the grandchildren's toys in :-)

a box for plastic bottles

This is a woven plastic bag here and is shared with tin cans.

a box for paper

It was to be the plastic box that we put paper into, then it got changed
to a plastic bag. The first time I put the bag out was the last time I
saw it.
I now recycle these at the local recycle centre. Along with the glass.
Cardboard is supposed to be bundled, but quite how I can do this is
beyond me.

and a composter for kitchen waste.

What use would I have for compost? We are slowly arranging our garden to
be totally maintenance free. Just the odd application of weed killer.

Find room for that lot in a small garden. And a £1000 fine for
non-compliance if you get the wrong item in the wrong bin, put the
bins out on the wrong day, too early on the collection day, fail to
get them off the street after being emptied, or leave non-standard
itms by the bins for collection.

Does the council tax not pay for this?
I was under the impression that they are under an obligation to remove
my refuse.

Since they have the option of putting their hand in my pocket and
extracting what they like, I would like to think that I have a say in
how they run things.

Dave

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:11:25 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:43:32 +0000, Matt wrote:

landfill conveniently fills up dangerous holes in the ground that
children could fall in.

But this government is about to whap hefty "fines" on councils that use
landfill and don't meet the governments recycling targets. So if you are
willing to have another 10% on your council tax go ahead...

Have you had a humour bypass? :-)


--

Derek ^ wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
"Peter Crosland" wrote:

When I was a kid I used to make pocket money by collecting old mercury
rectifiers and selling the metal off when I'd filled the carboy (some
tens of lbs).

Dropped one once...

Mein Gott! How old are you?

The only mercury arc rectifier I have seen (not to say gone round and
collected, it was a a one off instance) was in Crich Transport Museum,
and I am 59 !

I saw one in use in Old Swan Technical college, back in oh, err ..
counts 1983. It was connected to the lab 3 phase supply. Very
impressive when in use.

Cheers

Paul.

Dave wrote:

Some interesting replies in this sub-sub-thread :-)

It's clear that local councils are implimenting the rules in different
ways: eventually I suspect they will all come together under a common
scheme. One poster mentioned green wheelie-bins for green waste -
round here the green WB is for *general* waste, and it's bags or boxes
for the rest.

Black bin-liners left out by the WBs on collection day just stay
there, if it isn't in a WB or the right sort of bag or box, it doesn't
get taken.....

I was under the impression that they are under an obligation to remove
my refuse.

Having provided suitable means of sorting and collecting waste, I
think they are only under an obligation to collect that. In any case
if they don't meet their targets, they get fined.

Since they have the option of putting their hand in my pocket and
extracting what they like, I would like to think that I have a say in
how they run things.

It's called Democracy, and you get a sort of say every now and then.

It's proving so effective that less and less people feel the need to
join in ;-)

"Dave Baker" Dave wrote:

As for the glass and paper, those boxes got used for general storage the
minute they arrived and I just go to the bottle bank in the village carpark
when I do the shopping. Easier than trying to remember which week to put
which box out.

In fact this is what I do.

I save up glass and plastic bottles and jars, paper and cardboard,
tins and cans, all in supermarket bags, and every time I go out in the
car I drop them in the local recycling centre (the extra energy used
is practically zero). Kitchen waste goes in the composter along with
paper shreddings (stuff with identifiable personal info on).

All I'm left with is a very small amount of plastic wrappings. That
goes in the litter-bin when I drop the other stuff off.

To an observer, my house produces no rubbish!

In article , Kate
wrote:

If you think that one measly tube is such a pain to find room for, wait
'til your local council forces you to have a wheelie bin, a box for
glass and bottles, a box for plastic bottles, a box for paper and
carboard, a box for tins and cans, and a composter for kitchen waste.

I wonder how long it'll be before council bean counters start trying to
discourage people from composting their own waste. They have to (try to)
meet government targets on the percentage of waste that _they_ recycle
so every bit of compost you produce yourself hits their brownie points
score. Far better for them to ban home composting (probably for some
imaginary H&S reason) and make a bit more money from selling the
recycled garden waste back to the very people who provided the raw
materials for free in the first place.

--
Mike Clarke

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:17:22 +0000, Kate wrote:

One poster mentioned green wheelie-bins for green waste - round here
the green WB is for *general* waste, and it's bags or boxes
for the rest.

Green wheelies are garden waste here(*1). Blue bags for domestic waste,
only 2 allowed per week anything that won't fit in a blue bag won't be
taken(*2). You have to pay £10 for up to three "bulky items" to be taken,
excluding fridges/freezers (I think they cost £10 each!).

The real annoyance is that the same truck, on the same round, that takes
the limited domestic blue bags takes some of the "bulky items" (they just
took an ancient TV and mattress from us). This same truck also takes
commercial waste, which can be anything, in anything and any quantity
(within reason).

The green box takes, paper(*3), glass, cans. Not plastics or cardboard,
those we save and take shopping where there are banks in the car park.

(*1) This just gets the obnoxious weeds, thistles and ragwort mainly and
some woody prunings. All other compostable stuff goes in the composter.

(*2) But it's surprising how small things will become if hit by a
hammer...

(*3) Any paper, but any that has personal info on is shredded and goes in
the compost heap bit by bit.

It's called Democracy, and you get a sort of say every now and then.

You can have a say at any point, not just elections. These days public
consultation is fairly common, particularly on major topics. You just
need to find out about them, you know down in the basement with the
stairs missing behind the locked door with "Beware of the Tiger" written
on it. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:42:11 +0000, Mike Clarke
wrote:

In article , Kate
wrote:

If you think that one measly tube is such a pain to find room for, wait
'til your local council forces you to have a wheelie bin, a box for
glass and bottles, a box for plastic bottles, a box for paper and
carboard, a box for tins and cans, and a composter for kitchen waste.

I wonder how long it'll be before council bean counters start trying to
discourage people from composting their own waste. They have to (try to)
meet government targets on the percentage of waste that _they_ recycle
so every bit of compost you produce yourself hits their brownie points
score. Far better for them to ban home composting (probably for some
imaginary H&S reason) and make a bit more money from selling the
recycled garden waste back to the very people who provided the raw
materials for free in the first place.


Right now some are offering green waste collection for a price. If
they make that low enough, many people won't bother with taking it to
the tip. I suspect in any case that the cost in terms of CO2 etc. to
do that exceeeds recycling benefit.

In regard to the rest, the rule of thumb is that as long as it is a
way to employ more jobsworths (visions of Derek Guyler with a
clipboard going door to door) then it's a winner.


--

..andy

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
Sheesh - how many people nowadays have Hg fillings in their teeth? I
thought white fillings were "de rigeur".

Even the most expensive private treatment still uses amalgam for certain
things.

--
*Do they ever shut up on your planet?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:38:15 +0000 Andy Hall wrote :
Right now some are offering green waste collection for a price.
If they make that low enough, many people won't bother with
taking it to the tip.

It's one of the things that LB Richmond can be commended for: a large
green wheely bin about 1.5m high is £30 per year, kerbside collection
each two weeks.

http://www.richmond.gov.uk/garden_waste

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.12 released 8 Dec 2005]

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
That's more cosmetic, AIUI. The "gold" caps (I have some as well)
are gold and platinum or other noble metals. I'm told that they are
more durable than ceramic but are obviously less aesthetic (if that
bothers you) Personally, mine are near the back and I'm more
interested in mechanics than aesthetics.

Some are noble metal with a ceramic face. Think it makes them stronger for
a given thickness - so sometimes used for the large top front teeth.

--
*It was all so different before everything changed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Owain wrote:
Yes, we've got lots of old coal mines we don't use any more :-)

For the moment. But we *will* again. ;-)

--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Owain wrote:
[landfill]
Yes, we've got lots of old coal mines we don't use any more :-)

Not for landfill, though.


For the moment. But we *will* again. ;-)

Not for coal mining, we won't.

Not sure what the smileys are supposed to signify here.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:48:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
Sheesh - how many people nowadays have Hg fillings in their teeth? I
thought white fillings were "de rigeur".

Even the most expensive private treatment still uses amalgam for certain
things.

I'm not sure that that is still true. Last time I discussed with my
dentist he told me that he doesn't need to use amalgam anywhere any
longer. The strength and quality of the light-cured products
continues to improve.



--

..andy

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:57:26 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Owain wrote:
Yes, we've got lots of old coal mines we don't use any more :-)

For the moment. But we *will* again. ;-)


Visions of Arthur Scargill's progeny moaning about being up to their
ankles in fluorescent tubes and complaining about the welfare of their
canaries.


--

..andy

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:43:32 +0000, Matt
wrote:

landfill
conveniently fills up dangerous holes in the ground that children
could fall in.

That sounds like it's a self-rectifying problem; let the holes fill up
with children and the problem will go away.
--
Chris Cowley

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:54:14 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:38:15 +0000 Andy Hall wrote :
Right now some are offering green waste collection for a price.
If they make that low enough, many people won't bother with
taking it to the tip.

It's one of the things that LB Richmond can be commended for: a large
green wheely bin about 1.5m high is £30 per year, kerbside collection
each two weeks.

http://www.richmond.gov.uk/garden_waste


That makes very good sense both in terms of energy used to collect and
time/effort for the customer.


--

..andy

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:16:03 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Owain wrote:
[landfill]
Yes, we've got lots of old coal mines we don't use any more :-)

Not for landfill, though.


For the moment. But we *will* again. ;-)

Not for coal mining, we won't.

Not sure what the smileys are supposed to signify here.


Depends on the price.

... or in south Wales the Price

(and Jones, Thomas, Evans, Parry,.....)

as long as it's not Scargill all should be fine.


--

..andy

In article ,
Derek ^ wrote:
The only mercury arc rectifier I have seen (not to say gone round and
collected, it was a a one off instance) was in Crich Transport Museum,
and I am 59 !

When BBC TV Theatre was closed for refurbishment in the late '60s, the BBC
took over the Golders Green Hippodrome as a replacment. And there was a
working one in there - probably for projectors, etc. It was a convenient
source of DC for the Mole camera crane, so remained in use for some time.

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Chris Bacon wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Owain wrote:
[landfill]
Yes, we've got lots of old coal mines we don't use any more :-)

Not for landfill, though.


For the moment. But we *will* again. ;-)

Not for coal mining, we won't.

The worked out ones obviously not. But with world energy prices on the
rise those with viable stocks will be opened again. One day.

--
*I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:45:24 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:17:22 +0000, Kate wrote:

One poster mentioned green wheelie-bins for green waste - round here
the green WB is for *general* waste, and it's bags or boxes
for the rest.

Green wheelies are garden waste here(*1).


I thought that that was related to the sheep.

(Oh sorry, green *wheelies*)


--

..andy

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Owain wrote:
[landfill]
Yes, we've got lots of old coal mines we don't use any more :-)
For the moment. But we *will* again. ;-)

Not for coal mining, we won't.

The worked out ones obviously not. But with world energy prices on the
rise those with viable stocks will be opened again. One day.

Existing mines will not be reopened, ever.

In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:
Right now some are offering green waste collection for a price. If
they make that low enough, many people won't bother with taking it to
the tip.

Here in Stockport we get a kerbside collection of green wheelie bins
containing garden waste once every two weeks, and it's free[*].

That's all very well except we haven't got a kerb outside our house, but
there's one just up the road so we take our bin(s) there. :-)
[*] Of course it's not actually free at all, it's simply included in
everyone's Council Tax.

--
Mike Barnes

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:54:14 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:38:15 +0000 Andy Hall wrote :
Right now some are offering green waste collection for a price.
If they make that low enough, many people won't bother with
taking it to the tip.

It's one of the things that LB Richmond can be commended for: a large
green wheely bin about 1.5m high is £30 per year, kerbside collection
each two weeks.

We have a "free" collection of green waste in a separate
brown-coloured wheelie-bin, collected every fortnight apart from a
month or so in the winter.

They started this service just a few weeks after I'd bought a garden
shredder :-(

--
Frank Erskine
Sunderland

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:57:11 +0000 (UTC), Frank Erskine
wrote:


|We have a "free" collection of green waste in a separate
|brown-coloured wheelie-bin, collected every fortnight apart from a
|month or so in the winter.

Our council sold us two 300 litre compost bins at a huge discount, so we
*use* green waste and food waste on our garden. The only cost is some
delay between putting waste in the top and shoveling compost out of the
bottom.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Freedom of Speech, Expression, Religion, and Democracy are
the keys to Civilization, together with legal acceptance of
Fundamental Human rights.

In uk.d-i-y, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:57:11 +0000 (UTC), Frank Erskine
wrote:


|We have a "free" collection of green waste in a separate
|brown-coloured wheelie-bin, collected every fortnight apart from a
|month or so in the winter.

Our council sold us two 300 litre compost bins at a huge discount, so we
*use* green waste and food waste on our garden.

Same here but we also use the council green bins. They have a special
high-temperature composting process that takes stuff that an ordinary
domestic composter doesn't, or not readily e.g. woody stuff and nasty
weeds. (Or so I gather: SWMBO is the expert.)

--
Mike Barnes

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:47:51 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

The situation seems to be a combination of material used and time
taken. I know that a private dentist takes a lot more trouble over
issues like ensuring a proper key and making sure that everything is
dry before placing the filling.

I suppose it comes back to the principle of the 6 Ps.

Proper preparation prevents **** poor performance.

NHS or private, dentistry is a business, and with all businesses it's
worth it to shop around to get the best and most suitable service for
your needs.

Also if getting something expensive/drastic done, it's well worth
getting a second opinion, and doing your own research too.

cheers,
Pete.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:37:25 +0000, Pete C
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:47:51 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

The situation seems to be a combination of material used and time
taken. I know that a private dentist takes a lot more trouble over
issues like ensuring a proper key and making sure that everything is
dry before placing the filling.

I suppose it comes back to the principle of the 6 Ps.

Proper preparation prevents **** poor performance.

NHS or private, dentistry is a business, and with all businesses it's
worth it to shop around to get the best and most suitable service for
your needs.

Also if getting something expensive/drastic done, it's well worth
getting a second opinion, and doing your own research too.

cheers,
Pete.


Always. Never trust the medical profession beyond the role of
advisor. Certainly they do not warrant putting on a pedestal as some
would like.


--

..andy

In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:
Never trust the medical profession beyond the role of
advisor. Certainly they do not warrant putting on a pedestal as some
would like.

And with very few exceptions medics have no problem with you questioning
their opinions or getting a second opinion. On a pedestal is a lonely
and vulnerable place to be.

--
Mike Barnes

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:02:47 +0000, Mike Barnes
wrote:

In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:
Never trust the medical profession beyond the role of
advisor. Certainly they do not warrant putting on a pedestal as some
would like.

And with very few exceptions medics have no problem with you questioning
their opinions or getting a second opinion. On a pedestal is a lonely
and vulnerable place to be.


Sadly they often have to do what their political and economic masters
dictate and not what is necessarily best for the patient.


--

..andy

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:00:50 +0000 Andy Hall wrote :
Sadly they often have to do what their political and economic
masters dictate and not what is necessarily best for the patient.

But economics must be considered. If a life-enhancing drug costs 10p
a day who would not prescribe it. If it costs £1m per day no one
would (except Bill Gates' doctor perhaps). So somewhere between the
two there comes a point where you decide that something is or is not
too expensive.

Allied with this is all the tabloid nonsense about postcode
prescribing. If you want to stop this then Whitehall must make all
the decisions. If you believe that decisions should be made more
locally then you will get situations where two adjoining health
authorities make differing decisions about how to spend their
budgets.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
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On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:20:29 +0000, Mike Barnes
wrote:

In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:02:47 +0000, Mike Barnes
wrote:

In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:
Never trust the medical profession beyond the role of
advisor. Certainly they do not warrant putting on a pedestal as some
would like.

And with very few exceptions medics have no problem with you questioning
their opinions or getting a second opinion. On a pedestal is a lonely
and vulnerable place to be.


Sadly they often have to do what their political and economic masters
dictate and not what is necessarily best for the patient.

In the absence of unlimited resources, what's best for *the* patient of
the doctor/dentist/whatever at any one time might not be best for
patients in general. That's where economics and politics come in. There
isn't, and never could be, enough money to give the best treatment to
every patient.


Quite. Which is why the state should not be involved in healthcare.


--

..andy

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:30:29 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:00:50 +0000 Andy Hall wrote :
Sadly they often have to do what their political and economic
masters dictate and not what is necessarily best for the patient.

But economics must be considered. If a life-enhancing drug costs 10p
a day who would not prescribe it. If it costs £1m per day no one
would (except Bill Gates' doctor perhaps). So somewhere between the
two there comes a point where you decide that something is or is not
too expensive.

Allied with this is all the tabloid nonsense about postcode
prescribing. If you want to stop this then Whitehall must make all
the decisions. If you believe that decisions should be made more
locally then you will get situations where two adjoining health
authorities make differing decisions about how to spend their
budgets.


The problem then becomes all the bureaucracy involved in attempting to
make the whole thing appear to be fair. Of course it never will be.

The NHS is now the third largest employer in the world after the
Chinese army and Indian Railways. Hardly a recommendation.


--

..andy

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
In the absence of unlimited resources, what's best for *the* patient of
the doctor/dentist/whatever at any one time might not be best for
patients in general. That's where economics and politics come in. There
isn't, and never could be, enough money to give the best treatment to
every patient.

Quite. Which is why the state should not be involved in healthcare.

And you *seriously* think a private insurance company would pay out for
any treatment no matter how expensive?

Of course if you pay direct you can the very best that money can buy.
Would ne nice to be in that position...

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
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