-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

create unmoderated newsgroup uk.tech.heating

Newsgroup line:
uk.tech.heating Central Heating / Hot Water Discussion


*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.

RATIONALE: uk.tech.heating

A massive subject with no dedicated group. People seeking advice are
currently posting to various alt.* groups (99% USA or Canada based), or
uk.d-i-y, none of which are 100% appropriate to the subject matter. There
is also no national outlet for discussion between professionals regarding
said subject matter.

Note that I am a CORGI/OFTEC registered Service Engineer, but I have no
products or services to advertise and thus have no vested interest in
the group except as a potential user of it.

CHARTER: uk.tech.heating

The purpose of this group is to discuss the following:

Central heating ideas, problems and solutions - domestic and commercial;

Hot water ideas, problems and solutions - domestic and commercial;

Heating system design and associated plumbing techniques;

Breakdown, service and repair questions and answers.

Gas and Oil safety;

General industry related (CORGI, OFTEC, LPG, Solid Fuel) discussion.

This list is not exhaustive but messages to the group should be relevant to
heating and hot water provision.

Advertising

Advertising is forbidden.


Binaries & Formatting

Encoded binaries (e.g. pictures, compressed files, etc.) are
forbidden. Such material belongs on a web or FTP site to which
a pointer may be posted. Cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP)
may be used where authentication is important and should be as
short as possible.

Posts must be readable as plain text. HTML, RTF and similarly
formatted messages are prohibited. To see how to make some
common newsreaders comply with this, read
http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html.

Warning. Anyone posting contrary to this charter may be reported to their
"postmaster" and/or Service Provider.

END CHARTER

PROCEDU

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until January 2nd) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method. Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce
and is available from http://www.usenet.org.uk/guidelines.html (the UK
Usenet website). Please refer to this document if you have any questions
about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
uk.net.news.announce
uk.net.news.config
uk.d-i-y

Proponent:
Nick Booth

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I'm undecided if I support a new group or not -- I'll follow the
discussion and then decide. uk.d-i-y is appropriate to most of
the heating related posts which appear in it, i.e. there are
probably rather few heating related posts there which are not
also DIY. I do not follow the alt.* groups which cover heating,
so I can't comment if they carry any significant number of
non-DIY heating posts. Creating a new group is usually not
successful as a mechanism for generating posts that would not
otherwise have appeared elsewhere. So is your expectation that
the heating released posts in uk.d-i-y would all move across
and/or be cross posted to the new group? There are certainly
enough to make a group which took them all viable, but it's not
clear to me if there's much to be gained by separating them out
from uk.d-i-y, nor that there's enough non-DIY heating posts
anywhere to sustain a new group alone. However, I'm happy to be
shown I'm wrong.

A second point: I'm not sure I see why just "heating" -- I would
suggest considering if any new group should cover heating,
ventilation, and cooling. These are really inextricably linked,
particularly if you are interested in engaging professionals
covering commercial work.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
I'm undecided if I support a new group or not -- I'll follow the
discussion and then decide. uk.d-i-y is appropriate to most of
the heating related posts which appear in it, i.e. there are
probably rather few heating related posts there which are not
also DIY. I do not follow the alt.* groups which cover heating,
so I can't comment if they carry any significant number of
non-DIY heating posts. Creating a new group is usually not
successful as a mechanism for generating posts that would not
otherwise have appeared elsewhere. So is your expectation that
the heating released posts in uk.d-i-y would all move across
and/or be cross posted to the new group? There are certainly
enough to make a group which took them all viable, but it's not
clear to me if there's much to be gained by separating them out
from uk.d-i-y, nor that there's enough non-DIY heating posts
anywhere to sustain a new group alone. However, I'm happy to be
shown I'm wrong.

A second point: I'm not sure I see why just "heating" -- I would
suggest considering if any new group should cover heating,
ventilation, and cooling. These are really inextricably linked,
particularly if you are interested in engaging professionals
covering commercial work.

--
Andrew Gabriel

With regards discussions about Gas and Oil safety, these subject matters
should definitely NOT be associated with DIY of any kind.

With regard to ventilation, yes this is inextricably linked with heating,
therefore unnecessary to be mentioned separately
If by 'cooling' you mean 'air conditioning', then this is not inextricably
linked to the heating trade, a different subject matter and profession
entirely, but I imaging the group may receive posts regarding this matter as
it is 'relevant'.

In message , Fentoozler
writes
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
. ..

A second point: I'm not sure I see why just "heating" -- I would
suggest considering if any new group should cover heating,
ventilation, and cooling. These are really inextricably linked,
particularly if you are interested in engaging professionals
covering commercial work.

--
Andrew Gabriel

With regards discussions about Gas and Oil safety, these subject matters
should definitely NOT be associated with DIY of any kind.

With regard to ventilation, yes this is inextricably linked with heating,
therefore unnecessary to be mentioned separately
If by 'cooling' you mean 'air conditioning', then this is not inextricably
linked to the heating trade, a different subject matter and profession
entirely, but I imaging the group may receive posts regarding this matter as
it is 'relevant'.


FFS ...
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

Group creation procedures exist for a reason.
Someone

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
I'm undecided if I support a new group or not -- I'll follow the
discussion and then decide. uk.d-i-y is appropriate to most of
[snip]

FFS ...
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

Group creation procedures exist for a reason.
Someone

Message-ID: from Andrew
Gabriel contained the following:

A second point: I'm not sure I see why just "heating" -- I would
suggest considering if any new group should cover heating,
ventilation, and cooling. These are really inextricably linked,
particularly if you are interested in engaging professionals
covering commercial work

The name is less than ideal, but is there a better single word than
'heating'?

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

In article ,
Geoff Berrow writes:
Message-ID: from Andrew
Gabriel contained the following:

A second point: I'm not sure I see why just "heating" -- I would
suggest considering if any new group should cover heating,
ventilation, and cooling. These are really inextricably linked,
particularly if you are interested in engaging professionals
covering commercial work

The name is less than ideal, but is there a better single word than
'heating'?

HVAC (Heating, Ventilation, and Cooling), but it's
probably a term not well-known outside the trade,
which may make it not a good choice for a newsgroup
name. I suggest leaving worrying about the name until
after there is agreement on the intended topic coverage.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
somebody wrote:
FFS ...
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

********.

--
*Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Fentoozler wrote:

With regards discussions about Gas and Oil safety, these subject matters
should definitely NOT be associated with DIY of any kind.

I would disagree. What would you rather have informed or uninformed DIY
gas work?

With regard to ventilation, yes this is inextricably linked with heating,
therefore unnecessary to be mentioned separately

No strong feelings on the subject

If by 'cooling' you mean 'air conditioning', then this is not inextricably

Cooling is a much bigger topic than just AC


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

somebody wrote:

FFS ...

Kindly get back into your pram.

*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

And so they are - also crossposted to uk.d-i-y

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:26:12 +0000, Nick Booth
wrote:

| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

|
| *** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

Please note that any discussion on uk.rec.d-i-y will be ignored.
That is the system, for which there are good reasons.
--
Dave Fawthrop hyphen Hyphenologist.co.uk Register your mobile phone
IMEI *free* on http://www.menduk.org/. Keep the username and password.
If it gets stolen report it your provider to get it blocked. To hopefully
get it back report on http://www.menduk.org/ or 08701 123 123.

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:11:30 -0000, "Fentoozler" nospam@mapson
wrote:



With regards discussions about Gas and Oil safety, these subject matters
should definitely NOT be associated with DIY of any kind.


That is completely nonsensical.

If you take the position that all work involving gas and oil should be
carried out by professionals who are members of one of the trade
organisations (e.g. CORGI), then you would presumably say to anybody
asking a question in a group of the type you describe, that they
should contact somebody who is a member of such an organisation -
yourself for example.

There are two implications of that. One is that it becomes distinctly
commercial in nature (i.e. a business referral and advertising
arrangement) - that is not the intention of Usenet groups of the type
you describe - and secondly that discussions would be pretty short
because presumably the professionals who believe that only they should
do the work would not want to enter into a discussion of what is
involved.

If your real intent is to have a group for discussion between
professionals, then it would be better to have that as a moderated
mailing list type of arrangement through Yahoo Groups or something
like that. It would be pretty much instantaneous and you could have
files and pictures etc. - much more suited to a commercial group.

In addition, your comment that gas installation and safety should not
be associated with DIY, in the case of the man on the Clapham Omnibus
that may well be true.
However, there is no basis in law for this position (it requires
people to be competent, but only a member of CORGI for work for
reward). If you read through reports of the HSE gas safety
committees, they acknowledge that DIY gas work does indeed take place
and have considered whether to/ways of legislating against it. Quite
sensibly, they have realised that there is not, in practice a problem
- i.e. no noticable reports of death or injury - and secondly that
there is no practicable way of controlling it anyway. When CORGI was
set up, the objective was to attempt to eliminate cowboy fitters and
set a standard of training for legitimate ones.

In that respect it has largely succeeded, but obviously there are
still cowboys, and despite the propaganda, there is no guarantee that
work carried out by a CORGI fitter is beyond reproach. FOr example,
we have had cases described in uk.d-i-y where joints in copper
pipework have been fluxed but not soldered. This will pass an
integrity test initially, but is an obvious safety issue.

In uk.d-i-y there are a number of registered gas fitters and we quite
regularly get people coming to ask about aspects of some gas
installation or repair work.

These range from something as simple ss changing a flame failure
thermocouple in a boiler, through capping off a gas pipe to a full
boiler installation.

It is normally very obvious from the first post or within one or two
iterations whether the person is competent to do the job they are
asking about safely. It is also pointed out what the potential issues
are and sources of information.

Generally, the outcome is in one of three directions:

- The person realises that they are not competent to do the work and
goes and finds a CORGI fitter

- They go for doing some of the work - e.g. hanging and plumbing a
boiler but get a fitter to connect and commission

- They are capable of doing the work, but needed information on a
specific detail. It can be provided but if too complex can then
decide for a fitter to do the work.


I think that this is a responsible and useful approach.

- People who are just going to go off and do their own work regardless
and oblivious will do so anyway and are not likely to read Usenet.

- People who come and ask are being responsible and can be guided
accordingly.

Given all of that, it is entirely appropriate, as well as beneficial
that such discussion should happen in the context of a DIY newsgroup.


--

..andy

With regards discussions about Gas and Oil safety, these subject matters
should definitely NOT be associated with DIY of any kind.

Why should DIYers not be concerned with safety? That would be ridiculous.
There is no law against DIY for gas and oil systems, no matter what the
guilds (i.e. CORGI) would like you to think.

Christian.

Dave Fawthrop wrote:

Please note that any discussion on uk.rec.d-i-y will be ignored.

Not surprised, there is no such group...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Generally, the outcome is in one of three directions:

- The person realises that they are not competent to do the work and
goes and finds a CORGI fitter

- They go for doing some of the work - e.g. hanging and plumbing a
boiler but get a fitter to connect and commission

- They are capable of doing the work, but needed information on a
specific detail. It can be provided but if too complex can then
decide for a fitter to do the work.


I think that this is a responsible and useful approach.

- People who are just going to go off and do their own work regardless
and oblivious will do so anyway and are not likely to read Usenet.

And Darwin will probably obtain.


- People who come and ask are being responsible and can be guided
accordingly.


One point of warning on this; from 2007, you will need certificates if they
exist and a Home Condition Report to sell your house. Now, the lack of a
certificate won't prevent the sale, of course, but it will have financial
implications. The buyer may choose to beat you down on price, or you, as the
seller will need to get the certification work done. It doesn't stop people
doing their own thing, but I do think there should be an awareness of the
implications.

Ali

In Geoff Berrow writes:

The name is less than ideal, but is there a better single word than
'heating'?

"Plumbing"?

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:40:03 -0000, "Ali Hopkins"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Generally, the outcome is in one of three directions:

- The person realises that they are not competent to do the work and
goes and finds a CORGI fitter

- They go for doing some of the work - e.g. hanging and plumbing a
boiler but get a fitter to connect and commission

- They are capable of doing the work, but needed information on a
specific detail. It can be provided but if too complex can then
decide for a fitter to do the work.


I think that this is a responsible and useful approach.

- People who are just going to go off and do their own work regardless
and oblivious will do so anyway and are not likely to read Usenet.

And Darwin will probably obtain.


- People who come and ask are being responsible and can be guided
accordingly.


One point of warning on this; from 2007, you will need certificates if they
exist and a Home Condition Report to sell your house. Now, the lack of a
certificate won't prevent the sale, of course, but it will have financial
implications. The buyer may choose to beat you down on price, or you, as the
seller will need to get the certification work done. It doesn't stop people
doing their own thing, but I do think there should be an awareness of the
implications.

The simple solution, in preparation for the sale of a house would be
to obtain a suitable inspection and safety certificate (e.g. a
Landlord's certificate).







--

..andy

"Fentoozler" nospam@mapson wrote in message
...
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
I'm undecided if I support a new group or not -- I'll follow the
discussion and then decide. uk.d-i-y is appropriate to most of
the heating related posts which appear in it, i.e. there are
probably rather few heating related posts there which are not
also DIY. I do not follow the alt.* groups which cover heating,
so I can't comment if they carry any significant number of
non-DIY heating posts. Creating a new group is usually not
successful as a mechanism for generating posts that would not
otherwise have appeared elsewhere. So is your expectation that
the heating released posts in uk.d-i-y would all move across
and/or be cross posted to the new group? There are certainly
enough to make a group which took them all viable, but it's not
clear to me if there's much to be gained by separating them out
from uk.d-i-y, nor that there's enough non-DIY heating posts
anywhere to sustain a new group alone. However, I'm happy to be
shown I'm wrong.

A second point: I'm not sure I see why just "heating" -- I would
suggest considering if any new group should cover heating,
ventilation, and cooling. These are really inextricably linked,
particularly if you are interested in engaging professionals
covering commercial work.

--
Andrew Gabriel

With regards discussions about Gas and Oil safety, these subject matters
should definitely NOT be associated with DIY of any kind.

I completely disagree with this sentiment! Safety information SHOULD be
disseminated and not kept hidden as a pretence of being a black art known
only to the trade. Present legislation does not require professional only
participation and it is often (but not always) the case that d-i-y jobs are
actually carried out with more care and diligence than some professional
ones. I am retired but was until very recently a CORGI registered installer
specialising in maintenance so I came across a wide spectrum of quality of
work, which I found to be exactly as I mentioned above.
Knowing what is involved in operating a gas or oil system safely is far more
likely to have a positive effect on the health of the nation than otherwise,
especially when one of the less diligent pros has been involved.


With regard to ventilation, yes this is inextricably linked with heating,
therefore unnecessary to be mentioned separately
If by 'cooling' you mean 'air conditioning', then this is not inextricably
linked to the heating trade, a different subject matter and profession
entirely, but I imaging the group may receive posts regarding this matter
as it is 'relevant'.

Your thinking is blinkered. The fact that a large number of "heating"
installers have no ability or knowledge of air-con is not a realistic
picture when the control of comfort within a building is being considered. I
think the basic problem is one of education since in one job I had the
dubious pleasure of working with one supposedly "trained" air-con technician
who was blissfully unaware of the concept of vapour pressure or latent heat
of vapourisation. How the hell he managed to be assessed as competent to be
released onto the public I do not know but he didn't last with the company I
was with at the time. He is probably bouncing around the service industry
somewhere still.


Having the proposed group as unmoderated may prove to be a mistake. Take a
look at the pollution of many threads in uk.d-i-y which start out as serious
enquiry but through a small number of posters (one and a number of sock
puppets) are hijacked and turn into long sagas of stupidity. Having a
moderated group would be one way of blocking out the polluters quickly
before this became a problem. Trying to find useful information on a
technical issue from uk.d-i-y using Google is nearly impossible nowadays as
it throws up pages and pages of "debate" with little relevance to the
original thread.
The banning of adverts is generally a good thing but small mention of
developments as they are relevant to a response is sometimes very useful.

As with Andrew I will wait to see what develops before deciding

John

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:40:03 -0000, "Ali Hopkins"
wrote:



One point of warning on this; from 2007, you will need certificates if
they
exist and a Home Condition Report to sell your house. Now, the lack of a
certificate won't prevent the sale, of course, but it will have financial
implications. The buyer may choose to beat you down on price, or you, as
the
seller will need to get the certification work done. It doesn't stop
people
doing their own thing, but I do think there should be an awareness of the
implications.

The simple solution, in preparation for the sale of a house would be
to obtain a suitable inspection and safety certificate (e.g. a
Landlord's certificate).


Nope, sorry, won't work. The report has to be a Home Condition Report
prepared by a qualified and registered HCI. And the certificates, if they
exist, must be by Qualified Persons. Those who carry out Landlord's
certification may not necessarily be HCIs.

I can bore you rigid with the draft regulations, if you like. veg

Ali

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember somebody
saying something like:

FFS ...
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

Who says?
--
Dave
GS850x2 SE6a
I demand nothing of you except that you amuse me.

Andy Hall wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:11:30 -0000, "Fentoozler" nospam@mapson
wrote:
With regards discussions about Gas and Oil safety, these subject matters
should definitely NOT be associated with DIY of any kind.

- The person realises that they are not competent to do the work and
goes and finds a CORGI fitter

- They go for doing some of the work - e.g. hanging and plumbing a
boiler but get a fitter to connect and commission

- They are capable of doing the work, but needed information on a
specific detail. It can be provided but if too complex can then
decide for a fitter to do the work.
....

Given all of that, it is entirely appropriate, as well as beneficial
that such discussion should happen in the context of a DIY newsgroup.

You might also add the cases where people with no intention of actually
*doing* the work nonetheless want to canvass opinion on how the job
should be done. Reaching a somewhat informed opinion of the competence
of those hired rather than just trusting to advertised qualifications
and certifications is entirely reasonable. A DIY group is also useful
for people who are jus' lookin'


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:22:15 +0000, Ali Hopkins wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:40:03 -0000, "Ali Hopkins"
wrote:



One point of warning on this; from 2007, you will need certificates if
they
exist and a Home Condition Report to sell your house. Now, the lack of a
certificate won't prevent the sale, of course, but it will have financial
implications. The buyer may choose to beat you down on price, or you, as
the
seller will need to get the certification work done. It doesn't stop
people
doing their own thing, but I do think there should be an awareness of the
implications.

The simple solution, in preparation for the sale of a house would be
to obtain a suitable inspection and safety certificate (e.g. a
Landlord's certificate).


Nope, sorry, won't work. The report has to be a Home Condition Report
prepared by a qualified and registered HCI. And the certificates, if they
exist, must be by Qualified Persons. Those who carry out Landlord's
certification may not necessarily be HCIs.


So these HCIs will have to be competant to assess the state of the gas,
water, electrical, oil and drainage services? It may well be that the
report [1] will encompass all these things and more. It is just about
certain that they'll have to sub out more that one or two of the aspects
to a specialist.


[1] I've spoken to a number of people in the 'trade' (of house
letting/management/selling) almost all are of the opinion that the
purchasers won't trust a report commissioned and paid for by the vendor.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:00:00 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
somebody wrote:
FFS ...
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

********.

2'ed.
Even if does happen it's not going to stop posts coming hear, nor is it
going to stop replies to them.

There are already a load of trade forums available including ones hosted
by Screwfux.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:22:15 -0000, "Ali Hopkins"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:40:03 -0000, "Ali Hopkins"
wrote:



One point of warning on this; from 2007, you will need certificates if
they
exist and a Home Condition Report to sell your house. Now, the lack of a
certificate won't prevent the sale, of course, but it will have financial
implications. The buyer may choose to beat you down on price, or you, as
the
seller will need to get the certification work done. It doesn't stop
people
doing their own thing, but I do think there should be an awareness of the
implications.

The simple solution, in preparation for the sale of a house would be
to obtain a suitable inspection and safety certificate (e.g. a
Landlord's certificate).


Nope, sorry, won't work. The report has to be a Home Condition Report
prepared by a qualified and registered HCI. And the certificates, if they
exist, must be by Qualified Persons. Those who carry out Landlord's
certification may not necessarily be HCIs.


Said certificate would be from somebody in the CORGI guild to be given
to the person in the HCI guild.


--

..andy

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
So these HCIs will have to be competant to assess the state of the gas,
water, electrical, oil and drainage services? It may well be that the
report [1] will encompass all these things and more. It is just about
certain that they'll have to sub out more that one or two of the aspects
to a specialist.


They will be qualified surveyors or possibly BCIs and most likely RICS
members or dimilar. It's a tough and quite expensive qualification to get.
I know what's in the draft report format as released to the "trade", and it
most certianly won't be a rubber stamp exercise.


[1] I've spoken to a number of people in the 'trade' (of house
letting/management/selling) almost all are of the opinion that the
purchasers won't trust a report commissioned and paid for by the vendor.


It's not necessarily commissioned and paid for by the vendor, for one thing,
although it is their responsibility to ensure it happens. And there are very
stringent quality controls on the content and format. The HCR will be
something of a half way house between a drive by valuation and a full blown
structural survey. Many buyers STILL only have valuation surveys done, more
fool them, so a HIP will be better than many current positions.

It doesn't apply to letting, of course, that's not covered.

Ali

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:22:15 -0000, "Ali Hopkins"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:40:03 -0000, "Ali Hopkins"
wrote:



One point of warning on this; from 2007, you will need certificates if
they
exist and a Home Condition Report to sell your house. Now, the lack of
a
certificate won't prevent the sale, of course, but it will have
financial
implications. The buyer may choose to beat you down on price, or you, as
the
seller will need to get the certification work done. It doesn't stop
people
doing their own thing, but I do think there should be an awareness of
the
implications.

The simple solution, in preparation for the sale of a house would be
to obtain a suitable inspection and safety certificate (e.g. a
Landlord's certificate).


Nope, sorry, won't work. The report has to be a Home Condition Report
prepared by a qualified and registered HCI. And the certificates, if they
exist, must be by Qualified Persons. Those who carry out Landlord's
certification may not necessarily be HCIs.


Said certificate would be from somebody in the CORGI guild to be given
to the person in the HCI guild.



If you mean the inspection certificate to signal a retrofitted compliance,
then yes, for gas it would be CORGI, for double glazing FENSA and so forth.
It would NOT go to the HCI - and there isn't actually a guild for those as
such by the way. It would go to the HIP compiler.

Ali

"Ali Hopkins" wrote in
:

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
So these HCIs will have to be competant to assess the state of
the gas, water, electrical, oil and drainage services? It may
well be that the report [1] will encompass all these things and
more. It is just about certain that they'll have to sub out more
that one or two of the aspects to a specialist.


They will be qualified surveyors or possibly BCIs and most likely
RICS members or dimilar. It's a tough and quite expensive
qualification to get. I know what's in the draft report format as
released to the "trade", and it most certianly won't be a rubber
stamp exercise.


[1] I've spoken to a number of people in the 'trade' (of house
letting/management/selling) almost all are of the opinion that
the purchasers won't trust a report commissioned and paid for by
the vendor.


It's not necessarily commissioned and paid for by the vendor, for
one thing, although it is their responsibility to ensure it
happens. And there are very stringent quality controls on the
content and format. The HCR will be something of a half way house
between a drive by valuation and a full blown structural survey.
Many buyers STILL only have valuation surveys done, more fool
them, so a HIP will be better than many current positions.

But if the buyer loses money because of the negligence of the
surveyor, will the latter be responsible for compensating them? If
not, then it is a complete waste of time and money for everyone
except the surveyor.


--
Percy Picacity

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:59:01 -0000, "Ali Hopkins"
wrote:




If you mean the inspection certificate to signal a retrofitted compliance,
then yes, for gas it would be CORGI, for double glazing FENSA and so forth.

Exactly, so it's a non-issue.


It would NOT go to the HCI - and there isn't actually a guild for those as
such by the way. It would go to the HIP compiler.

Oh I see. Would he be a member of the HIP guild?


--

..andy

In article ,
"Ali Hopkins" writes:

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
So these HCIs will have to be competant to assess the state of the gas,
water, electrical, oil and drainage services? It may well be that the
report [1] will encompass all these things and more. It is just about
certain that they'll have to sub out more that one or two of the aspects
to a specialist.

They will be qualified surveyors or possibly BCIs and most likely RICS
members or dimilar.

They will definately not be surveyors -- RICS is being very firm
on that point, as it would devalue real surveyors. They will hold
a diploma in home inspection.

It's a tough and quite expensive qualification to get.

A problem at the moment is that the training is behind schedule,
and many of those coming forward to be trained are turning out
not to be up to it. It had been thought that applicants would
come from within the building trade (I can't think why), but
the applicants are mainly from outside the building trade, and
completely ignorant of building work.

I know what's in the draft report format as released to the "trade", and it
most certianly won't be a rubber stamp exercise.

[1] I've spoken to a number of people in the 'trade' (of house
letting/management/selling) almost all are of the opinion that the
purchasers won't trust a report commissioned and paid for by the vendor.

Currently, no mortgage lender is willing to accept it either.
I wouldn't accept it on a house I was buying.

It's not necessarily commissioned and paid for by the vendor, for one thing,

It has to exist before the house can go on the market, so it's
difficult to see what other arrangement might exist.

although it is their responsibility to ensure it happens. And there are very
stringent quality controls on the content and format. The HCR will be
something of a half way house between a drive by valuation and a full blown
structural survey. Many buyers STILL only have valuation surveys done, more
fool them, so a HIP will be better than many current positions.

Apparently, only a 1/3rd of buyers have a survey (I suspect that
excludes those who rely on the mortgage lender's valuation report).

It doesn't apply to letting, of course, that's not covered.

[Followups drop uk.net.news.config, where this is going off-topic]

--
Andrew Gabriel

Mother wrote:

It's the way stuph is done when new net news groups (aka newsgroups or
usenet groups) are created in the uk.* hierarchy. It isn't meant to
prevent folk in existing groups discussing the proposal - far from it,
but in terms of the creation process and the lead to any vote, the
discussion takes place in uk.net.news.config as it is a 'config' issue
and should not necessarily become too off topic in the groups it may
possibly, but not provenly, affect.

Does not having the discussion in uk.net.news.config _and_ having it
crossposted to uk.d-i-y not also achieve the same result?

I have modified the 'follow-up' groups, as I'm interested in the
proposal but do not take uk.d-i-y - this does not mean you are being

Hence my comment above for those of us who don't take uk.net.news.config


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...

But if the buyer loses money because of the negligence of the
surveyor, will the latter be responsible for compensating them? If
not, then it is a complete waste of time and money for everyone
except the surveyor.


In two words, Indemnity Insurance.

Ali

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:59:01 -0000, "Ali Hopkins"
wrote:




If you mean the inspection certificate to signal a retrofitted compliance,
then yes, for gas it would be CORGI, for double glazing FENSA and so
forth.

Exactly, so it's a non-issue.


It would NOT go to the HCI - and there isn't actually a guild for those as
such by the way. It would go to the HIP compiler.

Oh I see. Would he be a member of the HIP guild?


No such animal.

Ali

In message , Fentoozler
writes
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
. ..
A second point: I'm not sure I see why just "heating" -- I would
suggest considering if any new group should cover heating,
ventilation, and cooling. These are really inextricably linked,
particularly if you are interested in engaging professionals
covering commercial work.

--
Andrew Gabriel

With regards discussions about Gas and Oil safety, these subject matters
should definitely NOT be associated with DIY of any kind.

And why not ?

Surely "professionals" should know all about it in the first place

How else would someone wanting to do their own gas work learn about such
things



With regard to ventilation, yes this is inextricably linked with heating,
therefore unnecessary to be mentioned separately
If by 'cooling' you mean 'air conditioning', then this is not inextricably
linked to the heating trade, a different subject matter and profession
entirely, but I imaging the group may receive posts regarding this matter as
it is 'relevant'.



--
geoff

In message , at
21:58:18 on Fri, 23 Dec 2005, John Rumm
wibbled
Mother wrote:

It's the way stuph is done when new net news groups (aka newsgroups or
usenet groups) are created in the uk.* hierarchy. It isn't meant to
prevent folk in existing groups discussing the proposal - far from it,
but in terms of the creation process and the lead to any vote, the
discussion takes place in uk.net.news.config as it is a 'config' issue
and should not necessarily become too off topic in the groups it may
possibly, but not provenly, affect.

Does not having the discussion in uk.net.news.config _and_ having it
crossposted to uk.d-i-y not also achieve the same result?

The definitive discussion of the RFD has to appear in uk.net.news.config
and any discussion solely in other newsgroups, uk.d-i-y in this case,
that appears outside uk.net.news.config is not considered part of the
definitive discussion.

Whilst there is no objection to the discussion concerning the RFD itself
appearing in both newsgroups, sidebars with no relevance to the RFD
should be hived off into uk.d-i-y (cf Andrew Gabriel setting followups
on the HCR discussion as an example).

I would suggest that uk.d-i-y subscribers should subscribe to unnc from
the start of the RFD if they are interested in the progress of the RFD.
Not all comments on the RFD will be crossposted to uk.d-i-y

--
Pedt
Member of, but not speaking for, UKVoting

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:00:00 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
somebody wrote:
FFS ...
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

********.

2'ed.
Even if does happen it's not going to stop posts coming hear, nor is it
going to stop replies to them.

It'll be dry and boring and fade into obscurity fairly soon after not
taking off at all

--
geoff

In message , Ali Hopkins
writes


- People who come and ask are being responsible and can be guided
accordingly.


One point of warning on this; from 2007, you will need certificates if they
exist and a Home Condition Report to sell your house. Now, the lack of a
certificate won't prevent the sale, of course, but it will have financial
implications. The buyer may choose to beat you down on price, or you, as the
seller will need to get the certification work done. It doesn't stop people
doing their own thing, but I do think there should be an awareness of the
implications.

And that's another disaster waiting to happen, isn't it

If a buyer wants a house, they want the house

--
geoff

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
Geoff Berrow writes:
Message-ID: from Andrew
Gabriel contained the following:

A second point: I'm not sure I see why just "heating" -- I would
suggest considering if any new group should cover heating,
ventilation, and cooling. These are really inextricably linked,
particularly if you are interested in engaging professionals
covering commercial work

The name is less than ideal, but is there a better single word than
'heating'?

HVAC (Heating, Ventilation, and Cooling),

Bugger - I've gone 25 years thinking it meant "Heating, ventilation and
air conditioning"


but it's
probably a term not well-known outside the trade,
which may make it not a good choice for a newsgroup
name. I suggest leaving worrying about the name until
after there is agreement on the intended topic coverage.


--
geoff

In message , Dave Fawthrop
writes
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:26:12 +0000, Nick Booth
wrote:

| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

|
| *** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

Please note that any discussion on uk.rec.d-i-y will be ignored.

Wossat then ?


That is the system, for which there are good reasons.

--
geoff

In article ,
raden wrote:
HVAC (Heating, Ventilation, and Cooling),

Bugger - I've gone 25 years thinking it meant "Heating, ventilation and
air conditioning"

It does on a car. ;-)

--
*I love cats...they taste just like chicken.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
raden wrote:
Please note that any discussion on uk.rec.d-i-y will be ignored.

Wossat then ?

Did someone speak? ;-)

--
*Did you ever notice when you blow in a dog's face he gets mad at you? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.