Hi All,

My friend wants to give their 13 year old son something 'electronic /
kit' based for xmyth and have looked to me for help ?

I note that there are now 'lead free' solutions and just wondered how
they worked re basic electronc kit constuction / soldering please?

Should I get them something like this Maplin starter kit?

http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...7935&doy=25m11

Would 18w be 'right' for small component assembly with 'lead free' ?

I assume in the absense of lead the temp would be higher (and would my
'ex BT' Weller soldering station cope?)? ;-(

I was going to suggest a couple of basic kits that 'do something'
(electronic dice / light sequencer) might hold more interest 'after'
the kits were complete.

What impact would 40 years soldering with the 'full fat' stuff have
had on me? [1]

All the best ..

T i m

[1] Obviously not dementia .. not bought a hybrid car yet! ;-)

T i m wrote:
Hi All,

My friend wants to give their 13 year old son something 'electronic /
kit' based for xmyth and have looked to me for help ?

I note that there are now 'lead free' solutions and just wondered how
they worked re basic electronc kit constuction / soldering please?

Should I get them something like this Maplin starter kit?

http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...7935&doy=25m11

Would 18w be 'right' for small component assembly with 'lead free' ?

I assume in the absense of lead the temp would be higher (and would my
'ex BT' Weller soldering station cope?)? ;-(

I was going to suggest a couple of basic kits that 'do something'
(electronic dice / light sequencer) might hold more interest 'after'
the kits were complete.

What impact would 40 years soldering with the 'full fat' stuff have
had on me? [1]

All the best ..


Lead free will soon be mandatory for all commercial production and
availability of lead based solders will lessen.

A good place to start is the Farnell website
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/bespoke/be...solder/faq.jsp

If that link doesn't work, click on the RoHS link on the homepage and
then the solder focus link.

You will need a slightly higher temperature iron, but I suspect many
are already suitable. If buying new, like you, I would go for a 25W
model and would recommend the Antex XS for which bits and elements are
widely available.

One thing to be aware of is that the fluxes used can be more aggressive
and can wear the bits away. Coated bits are available for use with lead
free. It also much harder to get a nice shiny looking joint with lead
free solder.

Alternatively, just buy in a stock of lead based solder, assuming the
13yr old isn't being used as slave labour to produce things for sale on
the open market!

If they become proficient and interested enough then a nice temperature
controlled iron may be on the cards for next christmas.

You should be wary of the flux fumes just as much as the lead
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg248.pdf see my other thread about fume
extraction.

MBQ

I had an electronics kit as a 12-13 year old (about 25 years ago!). It
consisted of a series of individual components wired up to what was
basically springs. You bent the spring, inserted a stripped end of a cable
and that was your connection - all of course comletely reusable. An
instruction manual gave the wiring required to create burglar alarm, crystal
radio, light sensitive switch etc etc. As your knowledge increased you
could modify/create your own circuits.

The maplin equivalent appears to be:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...7408&doy=25m11

One of the best presents I ever received.

David


"T i m" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

My friend wants to give their 13 year old son something 'electronic /
kit' based for xmyth and have looked to me for help ?

I note that there are now 'lead free' solutions and just wondered how
they worked re basic electronc kit constuction / soldering please?

Should I get them something like this Maplin starter kit?

http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...7935&doy=25m11

Would 18w be 'right' for small component assembly with 'lead free' ?

I assume in the absense of lead the temp would be higher (and would my
'ex BT' Weller soldering station cope?)? ;-(

I was going to suggest a couple of basic kits that 'do something'
(electronic dice / light sequencer) might hold more interest 'after'
the kits were complete.

What impact would 40 years soldering with the 'full fat' stuff have
had on me? [1]

All the best ..

T i m

[1] Obviously not dementia .. not bought a hybrid car yet! ;-)

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Should I get them something like this Maplin starter kit?

http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...7935&doy=25m11

Would 18w be 'right' for small component assembly with 'lead free' ?

Yup.

I assume in the absense of lead the temp would be higher (and would my
'ex BT' Weller soldering station cope?)? ;-(

It should do - most will go to the higher temperature.

--
*It's o.k. to laugh during sexŒ.Œ.just don't point!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 25 Nov 2005 05:01:22 -0800, wrote:


I note that there are now 'lead free' solutions and just wondered how
they worked re basic electronc kit constuction / soldering please?


Lead free will soon be mandatory for all commercial production and
availability of lead based solders will lessen.

Ok..

A good place to start is the Farnell website
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/bespoke/be...solder/faq.jsp

If that link doesn't work, click on the RoHS link on the homepage and
then the solder focus link.

It did and thanks very much for that .. ;-)

You will need a slightly higher temperature iron, but I suspect many
are already suitable. If buying new, like you, I would go for a 25W
model and would recommend the Antex XS for which bits and elements are
widely available.

Ok, 18w too small as an 'all rounder' you think?

One thing to be aware of is that the fluxes used can be more aggressive
and can wear the bits away. Coated bits are available for use with lead
free.

Ok ..

It also much harder to get a nice shiny looking joint with lead
free solder.

;-(

Alternatively, just buy in a stock of lead based solder, assuming the
13yr old isn't being used as slave labour to produce things for sale on
the open market!

LOL! I've probably got more full fat solder here than he's ever likely
to use in his lifetime .. ;-)

If they become proficient and interested enough then a nice temperature
controlled iron may be on the cards for next christmas.

Good point / thought. And I note the 'If' (something you can't seem to
predict with many of todays kids).

You should be wary of the flux fumes just as much as the lead
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg248.pdf see my other thread about fume
extraction.

Doh! Why is it all the nice smells are bad for us .. solder flux,
petrol, tar, creosote ... sigh

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. I have learnt to keep quiet about some smells though ..

Wife "What do you think of my new perfume"?
Me sniff "Smells like fly spray" ..

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:08:59 GMT, "David Hazle"
wrote:

I had an electronics kit as a 12-13 year old (about 25 years ago!). It
consisted of a series of individual components wired up to what was
basically springs. You bent the spring, inserted a stripped end of a cable
and that was your connection - all of course comletely reusable. An
instruction manual gave the wiring required to create burglar alarm, crystal
radio, light sensitive switch etc etc. As your knowledge increased you
could modify/create your own circuits.

Hmm, I'm glad you mentioned that David .. I have just one of those in
a bag upstairs (nearly unused) marked 'boot sale' I could give them!

I must admit I think the title '130 great projects' might be a bit
missleading .. you can make a project where a light flashes on and off
and another where the light flashes off and on .. ;-)

Also you can't 'keep' the working project like you could with a
Vellerman type kit but there is probably more 'learning' in what you
suggest. ;-)


The maplin equivalent appears to be:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...7408&doy=25m11

And if I give them mine that's 20 quid they have saved and more space
in the spare room 'hurrah'! ;-)

One of the best presents I ever received.

I'm not sure what that would be for me ..

Probably my first tool kit when I was about 8 .. or a Xmyth present
when I was 12 of a 'Sea Commander' .. ~30' ply on frame RC motor
cruiser kit, a 1+1 RC tx / rx kit and and Enya 35 marine engine ;-)

David Hazle wrote:
I had an electronics kit as a 12-13 year old (about 25 years ago!). It
consisted of a series of individual components wired up to what was
basically springs. You bent the spring, inserted a stripped end of a cable
and that was your connection - all of course comletely reusable. An
instruction manual gave the wiring required to create burglar alarm, crystal
radio, light sensitive switch etc etc. As your knowledge increased you
could modify/create your own circuits.


Ah, fond memories. Mine was mid 70s and came from J Bull Electrical
(still in business). It consisted of a white plastic box with a hinged
lid which contained a sheet of paxolin with three 12 way strips of choc
bloc on it and a bag of obviously surplus components. A set of
photocopied "wiring diagrams" also came with it. You had to provide
your own screwdriver to tighten the choc block. Despite the heath
robinson nature of it, I thought it was great and had manny happy hours
of fun.

MBQ

T i m wrote:
Hi All,

My friend wants to give their 13 year old son something 'electronic /
kit' based for xmyth and have looked to me for help ?

I note that there are now 'lead free' solutions and just wondered how
they worked re basic electronc kit constuction / soldering please?

TBH, you really shouldn't be worried about the lead in the solder. The
rosin used as flux is more of a health hazard in use, and presumably the
13 year old isn't thinking of eating every last scrap of solder in the kit.

Stop the middle-class angst thing, and just get a decent priced
soldering iron/kit.

David Hazle wrote:
I had an electronics kit as a 12-13 year old (about 25 years ago!). It
consisted of a series of individual components wired up to what was
basically springs. You bent the spring, inserted a stripped end of a cable
and that was your connection - all of course comletely reusable. An
instruction manual gave the wiring required to create burglar alarm, crystal
radio, light sensitive switch etc etc. As your knowledge increased you
could modify/create your own circuits.


Brings back fond memories of the mid-70s and an "electronics kit" from
J Bull Electrical. Three strips of 12 way choc block on a paxolin board
in a white plastic case with a speaker in the lid. A bag of obviously
surplus components and a set of photocopied wiring diagrams.

Despite the heath robinson nature of it, I had endless hours of fun.

MBQ

Would 18w be 'right' for small component assembly with 'lead free' ?

18W was too little even for leaded solder. Get 25W minimum. The hotter the
iron, the quicker the join and the less strain on the component. An 18W iron
would fry many semiconductors before the solder melted, the length of time
it would need to be applied.

Christian.

In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote:
Would 18w be 'right' for small component assembly with 'lead free' ?

18W was too little even for leaded solder. Get 25W minimum. The hotter
the iron, the quicker the join and the less strain on the component. An
18W iron would fry many semiconductors before the solder melted, the
length of time it would need to be applied.

It's sold by Antex as a non lead capable iron. I used a 15 watt non
thermostatic Antex for years with lead solder on normal hobby work.

For serious stuff I'd ignore 25 watt and go to 50 watt thermostatic. There
are some pretty decent cheap ones out there - you don't need a 150 quid
Weller for hobby use. I think Rapid have one on offer at the minute for
about 30 quid.

But I made my own, using Antex 50 watt irons (two - to avoid changing
bits) and a Pace de-solder one. One of my more ambitious projects.
I just didn't like any of the commercial units - or their prices. ;-)

--
*A fool and his money are soon partying *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On 25 Nov 2005 05:01:22 -0800, wrote:

Doh! Why is it all the nice smells are bad for us .. solder flux,
petrol, tar, creosote ... sigh

My guess (and it's just a guess) is that we are responding to the more
reactive free radicals in the fumes, and it's the free radicals that tend to
be carcinogenic...

--
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
:


For serious stuff I'd ignore 25 watt and go to 50 watt thermostatic.

Me, too. Not just for serious stuff either.

I was just going to chime in because no-one had made this point but now you
have.

An iron that gets to the right temperature, and can hold it in spite of
thermal loss, is far less liable to either make dry joints or OOTOH fry
your components.

mike

My kids (and I) enjoy "robot" kits.
Maplin do a couple of kits for light seeking robots. Basically they
have a left and right circuit which is an LDR controlling a small
motor. No wheels - the spindle acts directly on the surface. PCB is
supplied and you get to do the soldering. Much more learning if it
doesn't work first time. They're fun to build and then fun to play
with (darkened room, torch, smooth floor).
Rapid are big in education and do quite a few really good kits which
are suitable for 13 year olds and not too expensive. The best we've
had was the "brainibot" which is a programmable bot with light, touch
and sound sensors. They do three versions, the most complex of which
is programmable by hand or from a PC using a command language - about
£15 from memory and you (sorry they) get the fun of doing the
electronic assembly, mechanical build from raw components and setup as
well as then developing your own programs for different movement
strategies. I recommend it most highly.

Don't worry about the lead free rules by the way. It's (going to be)
banned for maufacture but not for rework so the solder will still be
available (manufacture doesn't usually use solder on a reel anyway).
The old common sense still applies, don't breath the fumes, don't eat
or drink while working and wash hands afterwards.

Cheers,
Calvin

Maplin do a Temperature Controlled 50w iron for £12.99.

Tip temperature is continuously variable between 180C and 480C so
suitable for either leaded or lead free solder.

Probably ideal for someone starting out.

Order code N79AR (There's an offer on at the moment where you can pay
an extra £2 and set a soldering tool kit into the bargain)

(Remember to use different tips for leaded and lead free soldering. If
lead free solder is contaminated with lead then joints are more prone
to failure)

sponix

On 25 Nov 2005 13:56:28 -0800, "Calvin" wrote:

Don't worry about the lead free rules by the way. It's (going to be)
banned for maufacture but not for rework so the solder will still be
available (manufacture doesn't usually use solder on a reel anyway).
The old common sense still applies, don't breath the fumes, don't eat
or drink while working and wash hands afterwards.

Very true. You are more likely to die whilst going to the shop to buy
the kit that you are due to the effects of putting it together!

Eventually even kits from Maplin will be lead free but that'll be down
to availiability of components. Just make sure the iron you buy will
cope with lead free solder in the future.

sponix

Thanks to all those who have replied so far ..

I'll run it past them on Monday (when I offer them my 130 in 1
electronics project set and go from there) ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:
On 25 Nov 2005 13:56:28 -0800, "Calvin" wrote:

Don't worry about the lead free rules by the way. It's (going to be)
banned for maufacture but not for rework so the solder will still be
available (manufacture doesn't usually use solder on a reel anyway).
The old common sense still applies, don't breath the fumes, don't eat
or drink while working and wash hands afterwards.

Very true. You are more likely to die whilst going to the shop to buy
the kit that you are due to the effects of putting it together!

Eventually even kits from Maplin will be lead free but that'll be down
to availiability of components. Just make sure the iron you buy will
cope with lead free solder in the future.

Even if all the components are all lead free, you can still solder them
with leaded solder.

A bigger problem will be components going obsolete because the
manufacturers don't see a big enough market to justify the investment.

MBQ


sponix

On 28 Nov 2005 02:22:53 -0800, wrote:


--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:
On 25 Nov 2005 13:56:28 -0800, "Calvin" wrote:

Don't worry about the lead free rules by the way. It's (going to be)
banned for maufacture but not for rework so the solder will still be
available (manufacture doesn't usually use solder on a reel anyway).
The old common sense still applies, don't breath the fumes, don't eat
or drink while working and wash hands afterwards.

Very true. You are more likely to die whilst going to the shop to buy
the kit that you are due to the effects of putting it together!

Eventually even kits from Maplin will be lead free but that'll be down
to availiability of components. Just make sure the iron you buy will
cope with lead free solder in the future.

Even if all the components are all lead free, you can still solder them
with leaded solder.

A bigger problem will be components going obsolete because the
manufacturers don't see a big enough market to justify the investment.

This is largely happening, isn't it ? Maplin's shops are pretty
hopeless for electronic components. They're going much the same way as
Tandy did before they closed down - primarily stage electronics and
toy racing cars.

--
Frank Erskine

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
A bigger problem will be components going obsolete because the
manufacturers don't see a big enough market to justify the investment.

This is largely happening, isn't it ? Maplin's shops are pretty
hopeless for electronic components. They're going much the same way as
Tandy did before they closed down - primarily stage electronics and
toy racing cars.

I'd say that's more to do with electronics as a hobby not being as popular
as it once was. So it makes little sense to carry large stocks in a high
street shop of slow moving goods.

But given the move to surface mount in manufacture, the death of at least
some 'conventional' sized stuff is inevitable.

--
*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frank Erskine wrote:
On 28 Nov 2005 02:22:53 -0800, wrote:


--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:

On 25 Nov 2005 13:56:28 -0800, "Calvin" wrote:


Don't worry about the lead free rules by the way. It's (going to be)
banned for maufacture but not for rework so the solder will still be
available (manufacture doesn't usually use solder on a reel anyway).
The old common sense still applies, don't breath the fumes, don't eat
or drink while working and wash hands afterwards.

Very true. You are more likely to die whilst going to the shop to buy
the kit that you are due to the effects of putting it together!

Eventually even kits from Maplin will be lead free but that'll be down
to availiability of components. Just make sure the iron you buy will
cope with lead free solder in the future.

Even if all the components are all lead free, you can still solder them
with leaded solder.

A bigger problem will be components going obsolete because the
manufacturers don't see a big enough market to justify the investment.


This is largely happening, isn't it ? Maplin's shops are pretty
hopeless for electronic components. They're going much the same way as
Tandy did before they closed down - primarily stage electronics and
toy racing cars.


Yeah, they seem to have a fair bit of PC stuff and digital cameras. Oh,
and worst of all...gadgets! Its pretty hard to find a catalogue and
order form stand in most of the stores now.

In article , Richard Conway
wrote:
Frank Erskine wrote:
On 28 Nov 2005 02:22:53 -0800, wrote:

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:

On 25 Nov 2005 13:56:28 -0800, "Calvin" wrote:

Don't worry about the lead free rules by the way. It's (going to be)
banned for maufacture but not for rework so the solder will still be
available (manufacture doesn't usually use solder on a reel anyway).
The old common sense still applies, don't breath the fumes, don't eat
or drink while working and wash hands afterwards.

Very true. You are more likely to die whilst going to the shop to buy
the kit that you are due to the effects of putting it together!

Eventually even kits from Maplin will be lead free but that'll be down
to availiability of components. Just make sure the iron you buy will
cope with lead free solder in the future.

Even if all the components are all lead free, you can still solder them
with leaded solder.

A bigger problem will be components going obsolete because the
manufacturers don't see a big enough market to justify the investment.

This is largely happening, isn't it ? Maplin's shops are pretty hopeless
for electronic components. They're going much the same way as Tandy did
before they closed down - primarily stage electronics and toy racing cars.

Yeah, they seem to have a fair bit of PC stuff and ...

The trouble is that the 'PC stuff' isn't likely to be 'get your hands on it
and understand how the thing works' that you used to get in the days of
magazine type-ins* and hardware projects for BBCs & Arcs by Mike Cook. ;-(

*is there more than one magazine still producing these?

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

Frank Erskine wrote:

On 28 Nov 2005 02:22:53 -0800, wrote:


--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:
On 25 Nov 2005 13:56:28 -0800, "Calvin" wrote:

Don't worry about the lead free rules by the way. It's (going to be)
banned for maufacture but not for rework so the solder will still be
available (manufacture doesn't usually use solder on a reel anyway).
The old common sense still applies, don't breath the fumes, don't eat
or drink while working and wash hands afterwards.

Very true. You are more likely to die whilst going to the shop to buy
the kit that you are due to the effects of putting it together!

Eventually even kits from Maplin will be lead free but that'll be down
to availiability of components. Just make sure the iron you buy will
cope with lead free solder in the future.

Even if all the components are all lead free, you can still solder them
with leaded solder.

A bigger problem will be components going obsolete because the
manufacturers don't see a big enough market to justify the investment.

This is largely happening, isn't it ? Maplin's shops are pretty
hopeless for electronic components. They're going much the same way as
Tandy did before they closed down - primarily stage electronics and
toy racing cars.

Maplin have been like that fo ryears now, it's their business model
rather than component availability, ever since the founder sold out.

If you want components, there are plenty of other suppliers, a lot of
whom are cheaper too.

I gave up on Maplin when I was told things like I could order a
potentiometer but not the nut and washer to fix it to a panel as their
system couldn't cope with that.

MBQ


--
Frank Erskine