Andy Hall wrote:

Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

Yes, but NuLabr believe that everyone should get a prize for effort,
actual achievement doesn't count.

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:16:41 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

Folly of the 1980s and 1990s. ;-((

I agree...


--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:16:41 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

Folly of the 1980s and 1990s. ;-((

I agree...

Ye Gods :-) Never thought I'd see the day! And then on the same morning
someone is thanking Dr D for a tip too!

I agree too BTW...

--
Holly, in France
Holiday Home in Dordogne
http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr/

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:

Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

Yes, but NuLabr believe that everyone should get a prize for effort,
actual achievement doesn't count.

But the cheap Tory government made that change in the 80s and 90s. New
universities of the 60s were produced by proper (Tory & Labour) governments
the hard way - though one of the best (the Open University) only survived
because of the premature death of a Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:00:32 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:03:49 +0000, Mark wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 21:23:59 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:25:10 GMT, Geoffrey
wrote:

I am not missing the point at all. You want schools to be subject to
market forces. I think that is a Bad Idea.

That's your choice. Higher education is certainly subject to market
forces. I see no reason why that shouldn't apply to all forms of what
we understand as state services today, including all forms of
education and healthcare.

And look what a mess higher education is in now!


Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with technical colleges and no
reason to "rebrand" them with the title of University.

I don't believe higher education should be subject to market forces
either. There are some things (such as education, healthcare and
public transport) that are too important to leave to the money men.
These things should NOT have anything to do with profit.



--
Warning: Do not look directly into laser with remaining eye.

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:44:00 GMT, Geoffrey
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:00:32 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with technical colleges and no
reason to "rebrand" them with the title of University.

This has been one of my points all along. Universities should be able
to focus on what they do best - fundamentally an education in how to
think and resolve issues. This is not a suitable education for
everybody, and for many, something more vocationally (e.g. from
polytechnic etc) focussed is a better option. Neither should be
considered to have a higher status than the the other.



I don't believe higher education should be subject to market forces
either.

This depends on your definition of market forces. I don't
necessarily equate this to being equal to a profit motive.


There are some things (such as education, healthcare and
public transport) that are too important to leave to the money men.

I think that these are far to important to have in the hands of the
government.


These things should NOT have anything to do with profit.

I think that *delivery* of said services should be outside the remit
of government. However, it is possible for them to be delivered by
both non-profit and for-profit organisations. Non-government does
not equate to for-profit.





--

..andy

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:54:32 +0000, Owain
wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
Yes, but NuLabr believe that everyone should get a prize for effort,
actual achievement doesn't count.

There was a perfectly good prize for effort - it was called a CSE.

Bring back the GCE.

--
Frank Erskine

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:54:32 +0000, Owain
wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
Yes, but NuLabr believe that everyone should get a prize for effort,
actual achievement doesn't count.

There was a perfectly good prize for effort - it was called a CSE.

Bring back the GCE.

The GCSE, merging GCE O Level and CSE, was launched in 1986 in the middle of
the Thatcher Tory government - putting the knee-jerk anti-lLabour sentiment in
its place.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:54:32 +0000, Owain
wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
Yes, but NuLabr believe that everyone should get a prize for effort,
actual achievement doesn't count.

There was a perfectly good prize for effort - it was called a CSE.

Bring back the GCE.

The GCSE, merging GCE O Level and CSE, was launched in 1986 in the middle
of
the Thatcher Tory government - putting the knee-jerk anti-lLabour
sentiment in
its place.

The 11 Plus is still sat. I thought that garbage had gone years ago.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The 11 Plus is still sat. I thought that garbage had gone years ago.

Both my daughters sat it. The elder probably achieved a higher score than boys
that were paid by the LEA to go to the local private grammar school but she
could only go to the girls' equivalent if we paid. We did. She later went to
university and now has a degree and a PGCE.

The 11-plus still causes havoc around here.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The 11 Plus is still sat. I thought that garbage had gone years ago.

Both my daughters sat it. The elder probably achieved a higher score than
boys
that were paid by the LEA to go to the local private grammar school but
she
could only go to the girls' equivalent if we paid. We did. She later went
to
university and now has a degree and a PGCE.

The 11-plus still causes havoc around here.

I should be banned forthwith. It is the most stupid thing British education
ever came up with. It stinks of petty snobbery.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The 11-plus still causes havoc around here.

I should be banned forthwith. It is the most stupid thing British
education ever came up with. It stinks of petty snobbery.

It says much about your IQ if you think IQ has anything to do with
snobbery.

--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The 11 Plus is still sat. I thought that garbage had gone years ago.

Both my daughters sat it. The elder probably achieved a higher score than
boys
that were paid by the LEA to go to the local private grammar school but
she
could only go to the girls' equivalent if we paid. We did. She later went
to
university and now has a degree and a PGCE.

The 11-plus still causes havoc around here.

I should be banned forthwith.

We've been saying that for some time now

just do it



--
geoff

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:15:52 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The 11 Plus is still sat. I thought that garbage had gone years ago.

Both my daughters sat it. The elder probably achieved a higher score than
boys
that were paid by the LEA to go to the local private grammar school but
she
could only go to the girls' equivalent if we paid. We did. She later went
to
university and now has a degree and a PGCE.

The 11-plus still causes havoc around here.

I should be banned forthwith.

Couldn't agree more.

It is the most stupid thing British education
ever came up with. It stinks of petty snobbery.

--

..andy

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:00:32 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:03:49 +0000, Mark wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 21:23:59 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:25:10 GMT, Geoffrey
wrote:

I am not missing the point at all. You want schools to be subject to
market forces. I think that is a Bad Idea.

That's your choice. Higher education is certainly subject to market
forces. I see no reason why that shouldn't apply to all forms of what
we understand as state services today, including all forms of
education and healthcare.

And look what a mess higher education is in now!


Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

So why do you want a similar model applied to schools?

Mark.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:40:04 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The 11-plus still causes havoc around here.

I should be banned forthwith. It is the most stupid thing British
education ever came up with. It stinks of petty snobbery.

It says much about your IQ if you think IQ has anything to do with
snobbery.

I think selection based on ability is better than selection based on
the size of your wallet!

Mark.

In article ,
Mark wrote:
It says much about your IQ if you think IQ has anything to do with
snobbery.

I think selection based on ability is better than selection based on
the size of your wallet!

In the old days of grammar and secondary modern schools it also resulted
in a better social mixture.

--
*One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In the old days of grammar and secondary modern schools it also resulted
in a better social mixture.

Hmm. I went to a grammar school with a secondary modern on one side and a
girls public school on the other. We were banned from going within 50
yards of one fence lest we be corrupted by the riff-raff and from going
within 50 yards of the other lest we corrupt the young ladies. The school
finishing times were staggered to avoid mixing.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:04:52 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:00:32 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

So why do you want a similar model applied to schools?

I don't. It's just the opposite.

I would like to see diversity and self management without the
government involved.

--

..andy

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:04:52 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:00:32 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

So why do you want a similar model applied to schools?

I don't. It's just the opposite.

I would like to see diversity and self management without the
government involved.

Whereas I would like to see diversity with the LEA taking over the management
and letting schools get on with teaching - with the government limited to
providing the money - just as it was before the Thatcher government made a
mess of it all...

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:46:29 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:04:52 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:00:32 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

So why do you want a similar model applied to schools?

I don't. It's just the opposite.

I would like to see diversity and self management without the
government involved.

Whereas I would like to see diversity with the LEA taking over the management
and letting schools get on with teaching - with the government limited to
providing the money - just as it was before the Thatcher government made a
mess of it all...

Well..... from experience of the independent sector, it is possible
to run a school quite satisfactorily with a secretary and a part time
bursar.

There is no need to waste money on paying people in LEAs to be
involved in adding extra layers of management and bureaucracy.



--

..andy

"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:04:52 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:00:32 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Quite. It would have been far better to have left it alone and not
have attempted to make every establishment a "university".

So why do you want a similar model applied to schools?

I don't. It's just the opposite.

I would like to see diversity and self management without the
government involved.

Whereas I would like to see diversity with the LEA taking over the
management
and letting schools get on with teaching - with the government limited to
providing the money - just as it was before the Thatcher government made a
mess of it all...

All she did is introduce layers of management in all government depts,
upping the running costs.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:05:40 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:46:29 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:

Whereas I would like to see diversity with the LEA taking over the management
and letting schools get on with teaching - with the government limited to
providing the money - just as it was before the Thatcher government made a
mess of it all...

Well..... from experience of the independent sector, it is possible
to run a school quite satisfactorily with a secretary and a part time
bursar.

There is no need to waste money on paying people in LEAs to be
involved in adding extra layers of management and bureaucracy.

We find that the LEA can provide extremely useful help and support.

Mark

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:47:42 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:05:40 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:46:29 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:

Whereas I would like to see diversity with the LEA taking over the management
and letting schools get on with teaching - with the government limited to
providing the money - just as it was before the Thatcher government made a
mess of it all...

Well..... from experience of the independent sector, it is possible
to run a school quite satisfactorily with a secretary and a part time
bursar.

There is no need to waste money on paying people in LEAs to be
involved in adding extra layers of management and bureaucracy.

We find that the LEA can provide extremely useful help and support.



I guess that there is always an exception.

However, personally I would rather make my own arrangements for help
and support and if need be pay for them explicitly when needed. In
that respect, I see that as part of the school's responsibility in
their delivery of education. They are, after all, much closer to the
situation. The extra tiers of management and administration don't
exist in the independent sector, so I have a hard job seeing why they
are apparently needed in the public sector.


--

..andy