Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


I've got an early non 'Pro' twin rail 10" blade one. The slide action is
rather sticky so not really an operational feature - more an easy preset.
Cost about 150 quid IIRC. But it's pretty rigid and therefore accurate for
my limited purposes - unlike my previous non sliding cheapy which was
terrible.

Quite a few years ago, I came across a spray can that was made by
Protocoat. It is a silicone colloidal suspension. It works by getting
the silicone to the problem and the carrier/liquid evaporates away.
Since the solution evaporates, there is nothing to catch any further
dust. It worked very well on some delicate test equipment on aircraft
and has worked on various, sliding metal, wood working tools that I have
had since.

Dave

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:57:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



The consensus was that the PP (not PP Pro) B&Q twin bar mitre was excellent.
I'm not sure if this is it @ £99. with a 80mmx300mm cut.


Whose consensus?

Excellent compared with what? A rusty old bike from a canal?


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Colin Wilson wrote:
Meanwhile, if you buy the "P" B&Q own-brand power tools, keep the
receipt, however, the 28 day limit on claims is unlikely to be a
problem,

Unless it kills you in the interim, which, but the sounds of it, was
quite possible.

My screwfix 'wolf' compressor died on it's first outing. The plasic
'hamster wheel' cooling fan broke loose and went all around the
compressor housing shredding everything in sight.

I gave up on it and went back to 'Clarke'

You do get what you pay for and pro/semi pro tools are always more
satisfying on look/feel/longevity ....

Cheers

Paul

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:57:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

The consensus was that the PP (not PP Pro) B&Q twin bar mitre was
excellent.
I'm not sure if this is it @ £99. with a 80mmx300mm cut.


Whose consensus?

Matt, on the thread.

Excellent compared with what? A rusty old bike from a canal?

Did they say that?

Colin Wilson wrote:
Meanwhile, if you buy the "P" B&Q own-brand power tools, keep the
receipt, however, the 28 day limit on claims is unlikely to be a
problem,

Unless it kills you in the interim, which, but the sounds of it, was
quite possible.

If you snipped the bit where the OP says that bits came out through
the casing of the tool, then I'm sure a report to Trading Standards
is the only responsible thing to do.

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:12:51 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:57:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

The consensus was that the PP (not PP Pro) B&Q twin bar mitre was
excellent.
I'm not sure if this is it @ £99. with a 80mmx300mm cut.


Whose consensus?

Matt, on the thread.

Excellent compared with what? A rusty old bike from a canal?

Did they say that?


Are you hearing "the voices" again?


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Dave wrote:
I've got an early non 'Pro' twin rail 10" blade one. The slide action
is rather sticky so not really an operational feature - more an easy
preset. Cost about 150 quid IIRC. But it's pretty rigid and therefore
accurate for my limited purposes - unlike my previous non sliding
cheapy which was terrible.

Quite a few years ago, I came across a spray can that was made by
Protocoat. It is a silicone colloidal suspension. It works by getting
the silicone to the problem and the carrier/liquid evaporates away.
Since the solution evaporates, there is nothing to catch any further
dust. It worked very well on some delicate test equipment on aircraft
and has worked on various, sliding metal, wood working tools that I have
had since.

Interesting. Even by cleaning the rails 'till they gleam and adding a few
spots of sewing machine oil it still doesn't slide freely enough to be a
truely operational control. But the later roller bearing ones from Rexon
etc I've tried in B&Q are nothing like as rigid side to side etc. All down
to cost, I'd say.

--
*What happens when none of your bees wax? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:12:51 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:57:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

The consensus was that the PP (not PP Pro) B&Q twin bar mitre was
excellent.
I'm not sure if this is it @ £99. with a 80mmx300mm cut.

Whose consensus?

Matt, on the thread.

Excellent compared with what? A rusty old bike from a canal?

Did they say that?

Are you hearing "the voices" again?

Matt, no. Just reading inane babble from you.

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:02:15 +0100, naffer wrote:

Now I realise that 19 quid is far too cheap for an angle grinder!
It's Chinese, of course. (As are most of the other brands but with an
emphasis on nothing but cheapness, I suspect).

Getting this rubbish from China is just daft. I've got other branded,
built in Europe, tools that have gone on for years.

Hopefully, B&Q will realise the nonsense of selling power tools made of
not much more than cardboard, I hope.

The problem is that the sheds are in a very competitive market and want to
have the lowest cost entry-level power tools. This is a bit like the
banana wars the supermarkets were waging a few years back, or the tins of
baked beans for 7p. One manufacturer commented that the could not even put
empty tins out of the factory gate for that little. These "offers" are to
bring in the punter in, in the hope that they will buy rather more
profitable product lines. Try comparing the price of a carded twist drill
in a shed with that from an ironmonger. The vendor markup is factored onto
the packaging as well as the contents, a nice way to make money by selling
cardboard. Packaging is expensive. 30 grams of pepper in a pretty box
costs nearly as much as 100 from my local asian mini-mart in a plain bag.
I can assure you all that I have no intention of grinding a pretty box
over my food.

John Schmitt

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

In article ,
Huge wrote:
Try comparing the price of a carded twist drill
in a shed with that from an ironmonger.

You can buy a packet of 5 HSS twist drills in small sizes for
less than one in Focus..

Worth looking at tool stalls at auto jumbles, etc. The smaller sizes often
turn up in 'Jobber' boxes of 9, all the same size. For less than one in a
shed, and of better quality *and* sharp.

--
*Life is hard; then you nap

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Steve Firth wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:

Beats me what the customers want these days. Proof of purchase plus
cheap tools and a multitude of choice. So they throw the proof of
purchase away.

You don't need proof of purchase, HTH.

It certainly does help though - saves a whole load of aggro
(particularly in the OP's situation).

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Interesting. Even by cleaning the rails 'till they gleam and adding a few
spots of sewing machine oil it still doesn't slide freely enough to be a
truely operational control.

It's the oil that kills the free sliding motion. No matter how clean you
think the slide bearing is, there is always some crud left behind and
the oil will pick up any residue/dust etc. that is around.

Try using lock lubricant. It is graphite powder in a small puffer bottle.

Though I have been in engineering since 1961, I did spend some time in
the textile industry, on the maintenance side. Mainly in cotton
spinning. Anyone who has worked on these machines will tell you how
difficult it is to get a properly shaped bobbin, when the frame that
rises and falls to provide this shape gets contaminated with dross.

The ring frame is the part that carries the spinning rings.

This is carried up and down the winding area, by what used to be known
as pokers. They were steel shafts and ran through plain cast iron
bearings. These bearings could be as clean as could be, but you would
get stickiness, if there was not some amount of powdered graphite on them.

Colloidal suspensions were tried, but they were never as successful as
powder.

Dave

naffer wrote:

Now I realise that 19 quid is far too cheap for an angle grinder!
It's Chinese, of course. (As are most of the other brands but with an
emphasis on nothing but cheapness, I suspect).

My sister in law bought the el cheapo 115mm angle grinder from B&Q for about
£15. Came with 3 discs and a pair of safety goggles. She used it to cut 6
safety floor tiles. She then gave it to me. I've used it many times to
sharpen SDS chisels & points, cut angle iron, cut off bolts etc and it's
still going fine. Paid for itself twice over IMO.

You just got a duff one . Look at what's in a 115mm angle grinder. Motor,
body moulding, switch. Component costs are negligible for a mass produced
item. Labour rates make the difference.

It is entirely possible for the Chinese to make product of reasonable
quality at prices far below Europe's without reducing component quality that
much.

The truth is that we have been conned into thinking we have to pay lots of
money for power tools by manufacturers with big headquarter buildings,
overpaid marketing staff, hundreds of reps, loads of advertising & huge
expense accounts.

IMO we are now buying power tools at a fair price - at long last.

Dave

david lang wrote:

My sister in law bought the el cheapo 115mm angle grinder from B&Q for about
ï½£15. Came with 3 discs and a pair of safety goggles. She used it to cut 6
safety floor tiles. She then gave it to me. I've used it many times to
sharpen SDS chisels & points, cut angle iron, cut off bolts etc and it's
still going fine. Paid for itself twice over IMO.

You just got a duff one . Look at what's in a 115mm angle grinder. Motor,

That is part of the problem it seems - quality control is poor and
variability from one example to the next is wide.

You may recall a couple of years ago Screwfix had a batch of Kinzo angle
grinders that were getting returned at such a rate they ended up giving
them away as a free gift when you bought three discs! (IIRC there was
one poster here who had one that burst into flames and then he found the
switch had locked itself into the on position). By comparison there must
be folks out there who have exactly the same model still going strong
years later.

body moulding, switch. Component costs are negligible for a mass produced
item. Labour rates make the difference.

It is entirely possible for the Chinese to make product of reasonable
quality at prices far below Europe's without reducing component quality that
much.

That is true. However it is possible to make it cheaper still if they
neglect to use ball races in the bearings, use nylon instead of brass
for the gears, use low cost switch gear and omit dust seals and gaskets
from the output shaft.

The truth is that we have been conned into thinking we have to pay lots of
money for power tools by manufacturers with big headquarter buildings,
overpaid marketing staff, hundreds of reps, loads of advertising & huge
expense accounts.

Probably true - you will pay more than in strictly necessary for a high
profile branded tool. However you can also go too far in the other
direction IMHO where you not only trim the "fat" from the production
costs, but start cutting into the component quality and the quality
assurance.

IMO we are now buying power tools at a fair price - at long last.

This is true across the board though. 20 years ago you could have bought
a mid range B&D jigsaw for 45 quid. Now you could have a Makita or Blue
Bosch for about 100, which allowing for inflation is probably about the
same in real terms.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
david lang wrote:

My sister in law bought the el cheapo 115mm angle grinder from B&Q for
about
ï½£15. Came with 3 discs and a pair of safety goggles. She used it to
cut 6
safety floor tiles. She then gave it to me. I've used it many times to
sharpen SDS chisels & points, cut angle iron, cut off bolts etc and it's
still going fine. Paid for itself twice over IMO.

You just got a duff one . Look at what's in a 115mm angle grinder.
Motor,

That is part of the problem it seems - quality control is poor and
variability from one example to the next is wide.

You may recall a couple of years ago Screwfix had a batch of Kinzo angle
grinders that were getting returned at such a rate they ended up giving
them away as a free gift when you bought three discs! (IIRC there was
one poster here who had one that burst into flames and then he found the
switch had locked itself into the on position). By comparison there must
be folks out there who have exactly the same model still going strong
years later.

body moulding, switch. Component costs are negligible for a mass
produced
item. Labour rates make the difference.

It is entirely possible for the Chinese to make product of reasonable
quality at prices far below Europe's without reducing component quality
that
much.

That is true. However it is possible to make it cheaper still if they
neglect to use ball races in the bearings, use nylon instead of brass
for the gears, use low cost switch gear and omit dust seals and gaskets
from the output shaft.

The truth is that we have been conned into thinking we have to pay lots
of
money for power tools by manufacturers with big headquarter buildings,
overpaid marketing staff, hundreds of reps, loads of advertising & huge
expense accounts.

Probably true - you will pay more than in strictly necessary for a high
profile branded tool. However you can also go too far in the other
direction

That's tight, that is why the best price/performance/quality is in the mid
range stuff like Ryobi.

IMO we are now buying power tools at a fair price - at long last.

John Rumm wrote:
david lang wrote:
It is entirely possible for the Chinese to make product of reasonable
quality at prices far below Europe's without reducing component
quality that much.

That is true.

Wow!


However it is possible to make it cheaper still if they
neglect to use ball races in the bearings, use nylon instead of brass
for the gears, use low cost switch gear and omit dust seals and gaskets
from the output shaft.

Are you saying that is actually done?

BTW, does anyone use brass for gears, eh, hmm??


The truth is that we have been conned into thinking we have to pay
lots of money for power tools by manufacturers with big headquarter
buildings, overpaid marketing staff, hundreds of reps, loads of
advertising & huge expense accounts.


Probably true - you will pay more than in strictly necessary for a high
profile branded tool. However you can also go too far in the other
direction IMHO where you not only trim the "fat" from the production
costs, but start cutting into the component quality and the quality
assurance.

IMO we are now buying power tools at a fair price - at long last.


This is true across the board though. 20 years ago you could have bought
a mid range B&D jigsaw for 45 quid. Now you could have a Makita or Blue
Bosch for about 100, which allowing for inflation is probably about the
same in real terms.

Was the B&D comparable to cheap tools these days?

In article ,
Chris Bacon wrote:
This is true across the board though. 20 years ago you could have
bought a mid range B&D jigsaw for 45 quid. Now you could have a
Makita or Blue Bosch for about 100, which allowing for inflation is
probably about the same in real terms.

Was the B&D comparable to cheap tools these days?

B&D was the bottom end of the market before the Chinese got in on the game.
But for a while they did a 'Tradesman' range at a premium price and they
were pretty good. I've got a circular saw and reversing variable speed
hammer drill from that range and they've done very well. The drill in
particular has had heavy use since it's a good screwdriver - and dates
back from before cordless types were DIY items.

--
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Chris Bacon wrote:

It is entirely possible for the Chinese to make product of reasonable
quality at prices far below Europe's without reducing component
quality that much.


That is true.


Wow!

The labour prices alone will make a dramatic difference on the
production cost. However the component quality is the unknown in many
cases, so just because it is possible in theory to produce a good
quality tool and just take advantage of the low labour price does not
mean it actually happens that often in practice.

However it is possible to make it cheaper still if they neglect to use
ball races in the bearings, use nylon instead of brass for the gears,
use low cost switch gear and omit dust seals and gaskets from the
output shaft.


Are you saying that is actually done?

What cutting component and design quality? - absolutely. Take apart a
budget tool and it is obvious: no dust seals, plastic/nylon gears, no
bearings or at best sleeve bearings etc. Poor brush designs, inadequate
wiring, short cheap mains leads and so on.

BTW, does anyone use brass for gears, eh, hmm??

Lots of stuff has brass on the motor output shaft, but for general
gearbox parts perhaps one ought to say metal rather than brass since
there are a fair number of alloys that can get used. a typical Makita
gearbox for example is all metal, although not necessarily brass.

This is true across the board though. 20 years ago you could have
bought a mid range B&D jigsaw for 45 quid. Now you could have a Makita
or Blue Bosch for about 100, which allowing for inflation is probably
about the same in real terms.


Was the B&D comparable to cheap tools these days?

Interesting question... my gut feel (based on memory of the various B&D
tools I had used from that vintage) is to say no. In fact I am not sure
that there was an equivalent of the budget stuff we have today - either
in price or (lack of) quality. The sheds had not really got into own
brands as yet, and china was not knocking things out by the boat load in
the way they do today.

The B&D of old was typically as good or better than what they produce
today[1], so in today's terms it would be of similar quality to what we
now think of as mid range.

[1]some things like drills were probably better with metal gearbox
housings etc. these seem to go on forever. Other stuff like a B&D router
I once had, was well enough made, but the basic design was very poor.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
It is entirely possible for the Chinese to make product of
reasonable quality at prices far below Europe's without reducing
component quality that much.

That is true.
Wow!

The labour prices alone will make a dramatic difference on the
production cost. However the component quality is the unknown in many
cases, so just because it is possible in theory to produce a good
quality tool and just take advantage of the low labour price does not
mean it actually happens that often in practice.

I've no problem with any of the cheap stuff I've bought so far,
viz. the Aldi SDS drill, SDS drill set, router+ extra bits,
drill/driver (with two batteries), circular saw (with two blades)
+ extra blades unused so far. Perhaps it's the organisation's
quality control - I bought a "reduced" orangy-black (ISTR) hammer
drill from Argos, 1000w I think, and it's the most useless piece
of sht imaginable.

I do not agree that cheap stuff of good quality is not very often
available. I think it *is* quite often available.


However it is possible to make it cheaper still if they neglect to
use ball races in the bearings, use nylon instead of brass for the
gears, use low cost switch gear and omit dust seals and gaskets from
the output shaft.

Are you saying that is actually done?

What cutting component and design quality? - absolutely. Take apart a
budget tool and it is obvious: no dust seals, plastic/nylon gears, no
bearings or at best sleeve bearings etc. Poor brush designs, inadequate
wiring, short cheap mains leads and so on.

A sleeve bearing - a bush? What's wrong with that?

I've yet to PM any of the above tools, but I have PM'd some Bosh kit -
my nice blue jigsaw went bang, the spiral bevel gears had lost teeth.
My expensive Toshiba drill threw a commutator segment. My green first
Bosh router, a POF500A was far inferior to the Aldi one I've got, and
required a new armature, which I ill-advisedly got it. The adjustment
is poor compared to the cheap Aldi one. It didn't come with 10 TCT
bits, either.

BTW, does anyone use brass for gears, eh, hmm??

Lots of stuff has brass on the motor output shaft,

No, it doesn't.


but for general
gearbox parts perhaps one ought to say metal rather than brass since
there are a fair number of alloys that can get used.

Reverse gear, perhaps? Are moving goalposts made of brass?? LOL.


a typical Makita
gearbox for example is all metal, although not necessarily brass.

What metal? Not necessarily brass? You think Makita machines have
been made with brass gears?? Which ones?


This is true across the board though. 20 years ago you could have
bought a mid range B&D jigsaw for 45 quid. Now you could have a
Makita or Blue Bosch for about 100, which allowing for inflation is
probably about the same in real terms.

Was the B&D comparable to cheap tools these days?

Interesting question... my gut feel (based on memory of the various B&D
tools I had used from that vintage) is to say no. In fact I am not sure
that there was an equivalent of the budget stuff we have today - either
in price or (lack of) quality. The sheds had not really got into own
brands as yet, and china was not knocking things out by the boat load in
the way they do today.

Loads of people "knock things out by the boat load", and that certainly
does not mean they're crap.


The B&D of old was typically as good or better than what they produce
today[1], so in today's terms it would be of similar quality to what
we now think of as mid range.


[1]some things like drills were probably better with metal gearbox
housings etc. these seem to go on forever. Other stuff like a B&D router
I once had, was well enough made, but the basic design was very poor.

My Aldi drill has a metal gearbox. Is that then mid-range?

Chris Bacon wrote:

I've no problem with any of the cheap stuff I've bought so far,
viz. the Aldi SDS drill, SDS drill set, router+ extra bits,
drill/driver (with two batteries), circular saw (with two blades)
+ extra blades unused so far. Perhaps it's the organisation's
quality control - I bought a "reduced" orangy-black (ISTR) hammer
drill from Argos, 1000w I think, and it's the most useless piece
of sht imaginable.

I do not agree that cheap stuff of good quality is not very often
available. I think it *is* quite often available.

My experiances have been a bit more variable. I have cheap NuTool table
saw that is actually not bad - then again they probably bought the motor
in as a stock item and there is no other mechanics or gearboxes to worry
about. The fence could be better though .

I have a Delta sander that I bought for 6 quid - I thought at that price
it may do a couple of jobs and it would have to be worth the money.
However although it has done a couple of jobs it is lousy to use and
poorly designed - so not a good result. I also binned a cheap belt
sander the other day on the grounds that the plastic frame had distorted
to the point where it was no longer possible to centre the belt.

I have an axminster "perform" bench disc/belt sander however that is
really very good - induction motor, and very solid construction.

The NuTool drill I was given and dissasembled the other day is complete
toy.

My 15 quid bench grinder does the job well enough.

YMMV as they say.

What cutting component and design quality? - absolutely. Take apart a
budget tool and it is obvious: no dust seals, plastic/nylon gears, no
bearings or at best sleeve bearings etc. Poor brush designs,
inadequate wiring, short cheap mains leads and so on.


A sleeve bearing - a bush? What's wrong with that?

Compared to a ballrace? More friction and hence heat, more noise and
mechanical losses. More vibration and hence lower quality of finish.

BTW, does anyone use brass for gears, eh, hmm??


Lots of stuff has brass on the motor output shaft,


No, it doesn't.

ok then, plenty of *my* stuff seems to have brass output gears on the
motor. I fixed someones JCB SDS the other day (cord broken near the
drill) even that had a brass spiral gear on the motor shaft.

Loads of people "knock things out by the boat load", and that certainly
does not mean they're crap.

Never said it does. They Chinese do however make a large quantity of
pretty poor power tools. They no doubt make some OK ones also.

My Aldi drill has a metal gearbox. Is that then mid-range?

Don't know, not seen it. Can you get spares for it?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

But for a while they did a 'Tradesman' range at a premium price and they
were pretty good. I've got a circular saw and reversing variable speed

ITYM "Proline". I have three bits of that (9.6V cordless, 115mm angle
grinder, and 7" circular saw) and as you say it was actually quite
reasonable. The cordless was very good for its time.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
JR wrote:
Take apart a
budget tool and it is obvious: no dust seals, plastic/nylon gears, no
bearings or at best sleeve bearings etc. Poor brush designs,
inadequate wiring, short cheap mains leads and so on

A sleeve bearing - a bush? What's wrong with that?

Compared to a ballrace? More friction and hence heat, more noise and
mechanical losses. More vibration and hence lower quality of finish.

It may come as a surprise, but bushes are used in many, many
places where a ball bearing would be quite inappropriate.


BTW, does anyone use brass for gears, eh, hmm??

Lots of stuff has brass on the motor output shaft,

No, it doesn't.

ok then, plenty of *my* stuff seems to have brass output gears on the
motor.

Brass? I notice you've said "seems". Great "backdoor"!


Loads of people "knock things out by the boat load", and that certainly
does not mean they're crap.

Never said it does.

But you certainly implied it.


They Chinese do however make a large quantity of
pretty poor power tools. They no doubt make some OK ones also.

So do other people. Didn't you know? Cheap sheyte is pumped out
at whatever the market will bear. Sometimes, this stuff is
rather expensive rubbish, too.


My Aldi drill has a metal gearbox. Is that then mid-range?


Don't know, not seen it.

It's got a metal gearbox. You said "some things like drills were
probably better with metal gearbox housings etc. these seem to go
on forever".


Can you get spares for it?

No idea. It would have to be a very expensive tool indeed (like the
near-£600 900W SDS drill I mentioned in an earlier post -

*******************************************
*** can you guess which one it was????? ***
*******************************************

- to be worth even *thinking* of repairing. I certainly wouldn't
bother repairing something worth less than a couple of hundred,
just not worth the hassle and money. If it blows up inside
warranty, perhaps - but then it's a crappy tool. Do you agree?

My Aldi thing's got spare brushes - that's all most things
normally need, unless you're talking about crap mid-range
or D-I-Y Bosh stuff, which blow up armatures and whose
gear teeth fall off.

John Rumm wrote:
They Chinese do however make a large quantity of
pretty poor power tools. They no doubt make some OK ones also.

They're the third nation to put someone into orbit (and
get them back). I think they do have some "OK tools".

Chris Bacon wrote:

A sleeve bearing - a bush? What's wrong with that?


Compared to a ballrace? More friction and hence heat, more noise and
mechanical losses. More vibration and hence lower quality of finish.


It may come as a surprise, but bushes are used in many, many
places where a ball bearing would be quite inappropriate.

Indeed, but they are also used in many places where a ballrace would be
far more appropriate (the poxy cooling fans used in numerous computers
spring to mind - grrr).

Sometimes there is no bush at all - I have seen gear axles simply
supported in a recess in the plastic case moulding with no form of bush
or bearing at all. They last for about 5 to 10 hours total run time, and
then they are unserviceable because there is no case left! However they
are built to a price for a consumer who will often take many years to
get to ten hours of actual run time, so you could argue they are fit for
purpose and of adequate quality.

ok then, plenty of *my* stuff seems to have brass output gears on the
motor.


Brass? I notice you've said "seems". Great "backdoor"!

So? I have not conducted a full metallurgical evaluation. It looks like
brass, it may not be. I don't actually care, so long as it is
significantly tougher and longer wearing than plastic in these situations.

Loads of people "knock things out by the boat load", and that certainly
does not mean they're crap.


Never said it does.


But you certainly implied it.

No I think you got the wrong impression.

The Chinese currently ship boat loads of tools which are utter crap.
They also do boat loads of "ok" tools. They may even be shipping boat
loads of really quite good tools.

This is not a slur on the Chinese as a race, their technology or
manufacturing prowess. Since they are just supplying exactly what the
consumer is demanding, at a suitable specification, at a very
competitive price, and they are doing better than most other places in
the world. Well done them.

So do other people. Didn't you know? Cheap sheyte is pumped out
at whatever the market will bear. Sometimes, this stuff is
rather expensive rubbish, too.

Obviously... and in time no doubt even China will price itself out of
this market as its living standards increase.

Don't know, not seen it.


It's got a metal gearbox. You said "some things like drills were
probably better with metal gearbox housings etc. these seem to go
on forever".

The "metal gearbox housing" was more identifying the genre of B&D tool
rather than stating that that alone was a particular advantage (although
I suspect it was) - i.e. their classic hammer drill design that most
would recognise, with various mounting lugs for attaching accessories
(in the days before the standard cylindrical collet behind the chuck
became the norm). Their 2 speed gearbox 480W drill had massive torque in
the lower speed range and the quality of electrics to use it without the
magic smoke escaping.

Can you get spares for it?


No idea. It would have to be a very expensive tool indeed (like the
near-£600 900W SDS drill I mentioned in an earlier post -

*******************************************
*** can you guess which one it was????? ***
*******************************************

Can I guess which one what was?

- to be worth even *thinking* of repairing. I certainly wouldn't
bother repairing something worth less than a couple of hundred,
just not worth the hassle and money. If it blows up inside
warranty, perhaps - but then it's a crappy tool. Do you agree?

Depends what you mean by repair... If all you want is a new side handle,
it seems excessive to bin even a 30 quid tool. When Grunf paid (IIRC) 26
quit for a replacement armature for his £150 DeWalt SDS that also
sounded like a worthwhile repair. Obviously it would not be worth it on
a 30 quid Ferm.

My Aldi thing's got spare brushes - that's all most things
normally need, unless you're talking about crap mid-range
or D-I-Y Bosh stuff, which blow up armatures and whose
gear teeth fall off.

By spares I was also including things like the hook and loop backing
pads for an orbital sander. New batteries for a cordless - not at the
time you buy it - but in a few years time when the original cells are
knackered.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Chris Bacon wrote:

A sleeve bearing - a bush? What's wrong with that?

Compared to a ballrace? More friction and hence heat, more noise and
mechanical losses. More vibration and hence lower quality of finish.

It may come as a surprise, but bushes are used in many, many
places where a ball bearing would be quite inappropriate.

Yes, bushed bearings are specifically much more suitable for bearings
which handle large shock loads I believe.


--
Chris Green

John Rumm wrote:

By spares I was also including things like the hook and loop backing
pads for an orbital sander.

Grrrr! not long ago I had to pick myself up from the floor when the
pad turned out to be the most expensive single spare part for a Makita
orbital sander. At around 40 quid it was around 1/3 the price of a
complete new sander!

New batteries for a cordless - not at the
time you buy it - but in a few years time when the original cells are
knackered.

All the more reason to buy something like a Bosch where even if the
batteries are expensive they are at least screwed together to enable
DIY rebuilding.


--

Matt wrote:

By spares I was also including things like the hook and loop backing
pads for an orbital sander.


Grrrr! not long ago I had to pick myself up from the floor when the
pad turned out to be the most expensive single spare part for a Makita
orbital sander. At around 40 quid it was around 1/3 the price of a
complete new sander!

Probably because it is the one spare they can be sure you will need at
some point! I guess it is the price you pay for not having you fingers
vibrated until they go numb. ;-)

New batteries for a cordless - not at the
time you buy it - but in a few years time when the original cells are
knackered.


All the more reason to buy something like a Bosch where even if the
batteries are expensive they are at least screwed together to enable
DIY rebuilding.

That is one of the things that Makita (and others possibly) have done
well I think - sticking to the same basic connector design on the
battery packs for years. Hence it is still easy to get replacement packs
for 15 year old tools, and new chargers will take all the packs
including the old ones. Much of the mid range kit in the shops seems to
go through a new battery format every couple of years. It makes it
alomost imposible to buy into a particular format and then share it
between tools.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Matt wrote:
New batteries for a cordless - not at the
time you buy it - but in a few years time when the original cells are
knackered.

All the more reason to buy something like a Bosch where even if the
batteries are expensive they are at least screwed together to enable
DIY rebuilding.

They're also likely to last many times longer than cheap shed
rechargeables.

--
*If a thing is worth doing, wouldn't it have been done already?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.