Am considering having a Liff Limebeater installed along with a new
boiler.

Are they any good?

(I live in a hard water area)

sponix

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:

Am considering having a Liff Limebeater installed along with a new
boiler.

Are they any good?

Dr. Drivel will be along shortly to tell you he has the one that
apparently works... You can probably draw your own conclusions.


--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:

Am considering having a Liff Limebeater installed along with a new
boiler.

Are they any good?

Dr. Drivel will be along shortly to tell you he has the one that
apparently works... You can probably draw your own conclusions.

Mrs F is now here to ask what a Liff Limebeater is ...

Mary


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:25:19 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:

Am considering having a Liff Limebeater installed along with a new
boiler.

Are they any good?

Dr. Drivel will be along shortly to tell you he has the one that
apparently works... You can probably draw your own conclusions.

Well, they are used in the process industry which leads me to believe
they actually work.

They utilise an electrolytic effect which is a recognised and well
understood reaction.

Also some top range boilers have electolytic scale inhibitors built
in. The question is how well do they work?

sponix

Well, they appear to sell for £10 on ebay if google is correct!

Make up your own mind!

Regards
Capitol

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:

They utilise an electrolytic effect which is a recognised and well
understood reaction.

Well if you have a read he

http://www.godfreys-online.co.uk/mer...tegory_Code=WT

we get the usual flimflam:

"How Limebeater Works

Water passes through a small current generated by the dissimilar metals
contained in the Limebeater. This electrolytic action changes the
molecular structure of scale forming crystals, preventing them from
forming a hard insulating layer. The Limebeater modifies the physical
composition of the ions but no chemical reaction takes place."

Begs the question what pH water do you need to work as a suitable
electrolyte? And if you have electrolosis going on then how long does
your anode last before needing replacement. Finally how well does
electrolysis work with a flowing electrolyte?

--
Cheers,

John.

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"--s-p-o-n-i-x--" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:25:19 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:

Am considering having a Liff Limebeater installed along with a new
boiler.

Are they any good?

Dr. Drivel will be along shortly to tell you he has the one that
apparently works... You can probably draw your own conclusions.

Well, they are used in the process industry which leads me to believe
they actually work.

They utilise an electrolytic effect which is a recognised and well
understood reaction.

Also some top range boilers have electolytic scale inhibitors built
in. The question is how well do they work?

Some people have had good results from these.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:08:48 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:

They utilise an electrolytic effect which is a recognised and well
understood reaction.

Well if you have a read he

http://www.godfreys-online.co.uk/mer...tegory_Code=WT

we get the usual flimflam:

"How Limebeater Works

Water passes through a small current generated by the dissimilar metals
contained in the Limebeater. This electrolytic action changes the
molecular structure of scale forming crystals, preventing them from
forming a hard insulating layer. The Limebeater modifies the physical
composition of the ions but no chemical reaction takes place."

Begs the question what pH water do you need to work as a suitable
electrolyte? And if you have electrolosis going on then how long does
your anode last before needing replacement. Finally how well does
electrolysis work with a flowing electrolyte?

You're not supposed to plug it in to the electrolyte, it needs to be
plugged into the wall....



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

Yes electronic "softeners" do work contrary to replies from previous
posts but it depends on what you expect from them.
I installed one some twelve years ago after using them successfully in
an industrial setting but don't expect them to make the water feel softer.
I have noted particularly in the electric kettle that instead of the
usual build up of hard lime scale on the element the lime content of the
water ends up as a sludge in the bottom which is easily swilled out.
Previously descaling the kettle, shower head etc.. took place monthly,
(the water is very hard in the Dunstable area)nowadays I do it about
every 6 months.
Only had one downside when I installed it, I had a few soldered
connections that started to weep as the lime that was plugging the
cracks dissolved, as the father in-law helped me to re plumb the house I
blamed his soldering, surly mine could not be at fault!


Bazza

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:
Am considering having a Liff Limebeater installed along with a new
boiler.

Are they any good?

(I live in a hard water area)

sponix

John Rumm wrote:

The Limebeater modifies the physical
composition of the ions but no chemical reaction takes place."


Gosh. I wonder what it is that is meant by something that alters the
phsyical composition without a chemical reacxtion taking place?

Since taht is precisely what a chemical reaction IS.

Begs the question what pH water do you need to work as a suitable
electrolyte?

Electrolysis works at any PH exccept totally neutral. It just requres
ions of some sort.

And if you have electrolosis going on then how long does
your anode last before needing replacement. Finally how well does
electrolysis work with a flowing electrolyte?


I think you will find that what is happening is not electrolysis.

The way its supposed to work is by biasing crystal formation from one
type to another. so that e.g. you might, if it were water, get snow
instead of ice...or in the case of carbon, soot instead of diamonds..

The basic idea being not to soften the water, but to keep the calcium
carbonate in solution as a suspsension of fine powedery crystals, not a
rock hard lump of scale.


I suspect it mnay even work if its banged up next to the pump or
whatever you want to not get scaled up, but it isn't what I want in my
house. I want soft water with no calcium in it at all to make my soap
soapier and prevent calcium scums.

"Bazza" wrote in message
...
Yes electronic "softeners" do work contrary to replies from previous
posts but it depends on what you expect from them.
I installed one some twelve years ago after using them successfully in
an industrial setting but don't expect them to make the water feel softer.
I have noted particularly in the electric kettle that instead of the
usual build up of hard lime scale on the element the lime content of the
water ends up as a sludge in the bottom which is easily swilled out.
Previously descaling the kettle, shower head etc.. took place monthly,
(the water is very hard in the Dunstable area)nowadays I do it about
every 6 months.

I have one and that is my experience too.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:02:55 +0100, Capitol
wrote:

Well, they appear to sell for £10 on ebay if google is correct!

Make up your own mind!

they are only £20 to buy new.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:31:20 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

You're not supposed to plug it in to the electrolyte, it needs to be
plugged into the wall....

Err....no.

Try this experiment. Take a glass of lemon juice and place a steel
nail and an offcut of copper pipe. Use a multimeter to measure the
voltage between the copper and the steel. You'll find that a voltage
is produced. This is electrolysis.

Many early central heating systems failed due to electolysis.
Electrolysis would occur due to a mixture of metals being used in the
system (Copper pipework, cast iron boiler etc) which would result in
the copper being eaten away.

That's precicely why modern cylinders are fitted with "Sacrificial
anodes"-electrolysis eats away at the anode rather than the copper
pipework.

A positive effect of electolysis is that it inhibits the build up of
scale.

Top of the range boilers contain electolytic scale inhibitors. The
Liff Limebeater is an electrolytic scale inhibitor. (I'm not on about
magnetic water conditioners or whatever as there is no scientific
proof these work.)

My question isn't whether electrolytic scale inhibitors work-they do.

My question is whether they work well enough to warrant fitting to a
heating system.

sponix

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:34:41 GMT, Bazza wrote:

Yes electronic "softeners" do work

An electolytic scale inhibitor is an entirely different device to an
electronic softener!

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The Limebeater modifies the physical composition of the ions but no
chemical reaction takes place."


Gosh. I wonder what it is that is meant by something that alters the
phsyical composition without a chemical reacxtion taking place?

Since taht is precisely what a chemical reaction IS.


Hmm, one of the reasons I am wary of claims of this type ;-)

Begs the question what pH water do you need to work as a suitable
electrolyte?


Electrolysis works at any PH exccept totally neutral. It just requres
ions of some sort.

pH of tap water varies a fiar bit though. Hence any results you are
going to get are going to be very variable depending on the area of the
country you live in.


And if you have electrolosis going on then how long does

your anode last before needing replacement. Finally how well does
electrolysis work with a flowing electrolyte?


I think you will find that what is happening is not electrolysis.

This beastie seemed to run without power and yet talked about current
flow and the like. Hence the assumption it is functioning as a weak
battery.

The way its supposed to work is by biasing crystal formation from one
type to another. so that e.g. you might, if it were water, get snow
instead of ice...or in the case of carbon, soot instead of diamonds..

The basic idea being not to soften the water, but to keep the calcium
carbonate in solution as a suspsension of fine powedery crystals, not a
rock hard lump of scale.

I can see how you may get some benefit on a recirculating system, but I
would have thought any effect on a single pass system is going to be
minimal.

I suspect it mnay even work if its banged up next to the pump or
whatever you want to not get scaled up, but it isn't what I want in my
house. I want soft water with no calcium in it at all to make my soap
soapier and prevent calcium scums.

Yup, or if you just want to be sure of preventing scale then fit a
phosphate dosing unit.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:31:20 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


You're not supposed to plug it in to the electrolyte, it needs to be
plugged into the wall....


Err....no.

Try this experiment. Take a glass of lemon juice and place a steel
nail and an offcut of copper pipe. Use a multimeter to measure the
voltage between the copper and the steel. You'll find that a voltage
is produced. This is electrolysis.

I think you missed the invisible smilely on Andy's post...

(I susspect he knows how a battery works!)

That's precicely why modern cylinders are fitted with "Sacrificial
anodes"-electrolysis eats away at the anode rather than the copper
pipework.

Works well on oil rigs as well...

A positive effect of electolysis is that it inhibits the build up of
scale.

My question was how much electrolytic "effect" can you get on a single
pass through it?

My question is whether they work well enough to warrant fitting to a
heating system.

From the point of view of the heating side, not really since it is a
single fill application. Yes the water will dump some scale, but once it
has done so it won't do it again.

For the HW side of a system then that is a different matter. If you want
to be sure then use a phosphate dosing system. This will prevent scale
formation (without actually softening the water). The limebuster may or
may not have an effect, but the way you find out is potentially expensive.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:58:51 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:


I think you missed the invisible smilely on Andy's post...

I did!

Works well on oil rigs as well...

Yes.

My question was how much electrolytic "effect" can you get on a single
pass through it?

No idea..

From the point of view of the heating side, not really since it is a
single fill application. Yes the water will dump some scale, but once it
has done so it won't do it again.

Will it be sufficient to justify a £10-£20 outlay. Part of me thinks
it must be, otherwise they wouldn't fit them to top end boilers.

sponix

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:

Will it be sufficient to justify a ï½£10-ï½£20 outlay. Part of me thinks
it must be, otherwise they wouldn't fit them to top end boilers.

Something like a combimate will cost a bit more to install, but then
running costs are something like 10 quid a year.

I presume there must be a running cost to limebuster since if it is
behaving in a galvanic way it will have an anode that needs periodic
replacement? (or more likely replacement of the complete unit).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:31:20 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


You're not supposed to plug it in to the electrolyte, it needs to be
plugged into the wall....


Err....no.

Try this experiment. Take a glass of lemon juice and place a steel
nail and an offcut of copper pipe. Use a multimeter to measure the
voltage between the copper and the steel. You'll find that a voltage
is produced. This is electrolysis.

I think you missed the invisible smilely on Andy's post...

(I susspect he knows how a battery works!)

That is highly suspect.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

The Limebeater modifies the physical
composition of the ions but no chemical reaction takes place."


Gosh. I wonder what it is that is meant by something that alters the
phsyical composition without a chemical reacxtion taking place?

Since taht is precisely what a chemical reaction IS.

Begs the question what pH water do you need to work as a suitable
electrolyte?

Electrolysis works at any PH exccept totally neutral. It just requres
ions of some sort.

Even ultrapure water at any PH has some ions - it decomposes spontaneously
into H+ and OH- ions, at some rate.
(not practically usable for electrolysis)