Hi,

We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are putting
in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are suggesting
either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid), or a
"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all? If they do, it'd be very
convenient, as the SD500 requires filling with salt every 4 months...

Thoughts? Experiences?

many thanks

Mike

"Mike Deblis" wrote in message
...
Hi,

We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are putting
in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are suggesting
either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid), or a
"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all? If they do, it'd be very
convenient, as the SD500 requires filling with salt every 4 months...

Thoughts? Experiences?

many thanks

Mike

Try a Scalewatcher electronic and try it for 6 months. If no joy then get
your money back. I have an electronic one and it works. Depending on
conditions sometime they are not that effective.

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Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None whatsoever, unless you consider "working" in terms of making their
inventors very rich by supplying a 5p bit of plastic with flashing LEDs for
170 quid, making a cool 169.95 on every sale.

Go for the metered high flow ion exchange softener. That actually does
something.

Christian.

Try a Scalewatcher electronic and try it for 6 months.

You could also try casting a spell. Just as likely to be effective.

If no joy then get your money back.

They rely on setting the price at a level that you won't bother. They know
that they don't work. If only 50% send them back because the others are too
embarrassed or credulous, then they'll still make a healthy profit.

I have an electronic one and it works.

Yeeeeeessss. (Paxman style).

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None whatsoever, unless you consider
"working" in terms of making their
inventors very rich by supplying a

Stop making thing up. I have one and it works.


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"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...

Try a Scalewatcher electronic and try it for 6 months.

You could also try casting a spell.

You could also stop making things up. I have one and it WORKS!!!!!! Nothing
worse than a know-it-all.

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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None whatsoever, unless you consider
"working" in terms of making their
inventors very rich by supplying a

Stop making thing up. I have one and it works.

How do you know?

Mike

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:45:40 +0100, "Mike Deblis"
wrote:

Hi,

We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are putting
in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are suggesting
either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid), or a
"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all? If they do, it'd be very
convenient, as the SD500 requires filling with salt every 4 months...

Thoughts? Experiences?

Hi,

What do you want the softener to do, protect a boiler from scale or
create soft water for showers and bathing? An electronic one might do
the former but won't do the latter very well.

cheers,
Pete.

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
What do you want the softener to do, protect a boiler from scale or
create soft water for showers and bathing? An electronic one might do
the former but won't do the latter very well.

Just protect the UFH/manifold components. I couldn't give too much of a
monkeys about domestic use (though perhaps I should...)

Mike

Stop making thing up. I have one and it works.

How do you know?

It speaks to him. He hears voices...

Christian.

Just protect the UFH/manifold components. I couldn't give too much of a
monkeys about domestic use (though perhaps I should...)

The UFH itself should not have constantly replaced water, unless there are
some nasty leaks. It recirculates the same water. There is absolutely no
need to protect any sealed central heating system against limescale. You
should put corrosion inhibitor in though, ensuring it is compatible with
your UFH solution.

Only water systems using fresh water need protection, basically your cold
supply and DHW. If it doesn't come out of a tap, then don't worry.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Stop making thing up. I have one and it works.

How do you know?

It speaks to him. He hears voices...

You are an idiot.

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"Mike Deblis" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None whatsoever, unless you consider
"working" in terms of making their
inventors very rich by supplying a

Stop making thing up. I have one and it works.

How do you know?

I looked and hey presto, it works. Duh!

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"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Mike Deblis wrote:

Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None.


Mine works

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"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Just protect the UFH/manifold components. I couldn't give too much of a
monkeys about domestic use (though perhaps I should...)

The UFH itself should not have constantly replaced water, unless there are
some nasty leaks. It recirculates the same water. There is absolutely no
need to protect any sealed central heating system against limescale. You
should put corrosion inhibitor in though, ensuring it is compatible with
your UFH solution.

Only water systems using fresh water need protection, basically your cold
supply and DHW. If it doesn't come out of a tap, then don't worry.

If it does come out of a tap buy the one that needs the salt.
Its an ion exchange based one and they do actually soften the water.

The concept of fitting one to the sealed side of a heating system makes me
think you need to reconsider who is doing the job for you.

Doctor Evil wrote:
Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None.

Mine works

It consumes electricity, true.

--
Adrian

I have an electronic one, but makes little difference;
tried after my conventional one failed.

Can highly recommend The Genus range which the trade use, but they have
no website to my knowledge.
Much cheaper than local water softener coy here near Newbury.

"Adrian C" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:
Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None.

Mine works

It consumes electricity, true.

And gets rid of scale. IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get it?

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"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None whatsoever, unless you consider "working" in terms of making their
inventors very rich by supplying a 5p bit of plastic with flashing LEDs

I thought that was a TV detector. Usually shown to non licence holders about
10 seconds after an inspector sees your TV through the window.

Adam

"Gel" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have an electronic one, but makes little difference;
tried after my conventional one failed.

Can highly recommend The Genus range which the trade use, but they have
no website to my knowledge.

Not their site but it shows them in detail
http://www.brookwater.co.uk/water_softeners.shtml

They are real softeners and should work fine.

Adrian C wrote:
Doctor Evil wrote:
Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None.


Well, not quite none, but any effect is small and difficult to reliably
reproduce.

The following links give some (fairly) measured reading around the
topic:

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/descal.html
http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sims/water/magnets.htm
http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html
http://www.hnd.usace.army.mil/techin...Treatment1.pdf

And the following entry by 'bimr' in the discussion he

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=4423&page=1

also sheds some light.

"The germ of these descaling ideas is probably due to a phenomenon that
is well known to the water treatment profession, but apparently is not
known to any extent outside of it, namely that a change in the
composition of the water will frequently shell off the old scale right
down to the bare metal. Thus, a change in the composition of the raw
water, a change in compounds, or the temporary cessation of feeding
one, will often shell off old scale.

Two examples will illustrate this. A gas company using a hard well
water had scale in its boilers and on its cooling coils. As the
chlorides in this well water increased, owing to the gradual working
back of seawater, another well was drilled somewhat further back from
the shore. This also was a hard water, but when it was first used, the
old scale shelled off just about down to the bare metal, both in the
boilers and on the cooling coils. Not until the old scale was
practically gone, did new scale form.

In a second instance, a power plant was using a water containing
hardness and internal treatment with phosphate was used in the boilers.
Then the wonder-working gadget was put in on trial and the phosphate
feeding discontinued. To the astonishment of nearly everyone, the very
thin old scale which had been on the tubes shelled off down to the bare
metal. About six weeks later, two tubes failed, and on opening the
boilers, it was found that they were badly scaled with a new and very
hard scale. The gadget was thrown out; the tubes replaced, the scale
was cleaned out by turbining, and the phosphate feeding resumed"

Overall, the most effect is seen in recirculating systems, and no-one
has reliably reproduced effects in once-through systems, as in domestic
supplies.

As many have pointed out, in a properly working recirculating system
(such as boiler+radiators), the same block of water is passing through
the system time and time again - it is not contantly renewing itself
unless you have a leak, or steam escaping - so once it has dumped it's
load of dissolved salts, no more scale is produced - and this once off
precipitation does not amount to much.

If you want demonstrable, reproducible, repeatable, scientifically
validated water softening, use non-electronic/electrostatic/magnetic
means - i.e. salt based softeners. Anything else has very poor and
sparse evidence to support it.

Regards,

Sid.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Adrian C wrote:
Doctor Evil wrote:
Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None.


Well, not quite none, but any effect is small and difficult to reliably
reproduce.

The following links give some

All very, but mine takes way about 80% of sdscale. It works. Has it sunk
in yet?

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"Mike Deblis" wrote in message
...
Hi,

We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are putting
in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are suggesting
either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid), or a
"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

No.


If they do, it'd be very
convenient, as the SD500 requires filling with salt every 4 months...

That's because at least it's doing something. I have to add lime to my
de-acidifier just as regularly - that's life.

Doctor Evil wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..

Mike Deblis wrote:


Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None.



Mine works
Good for you but has there ever been a patent granted for these?
I think not, whereas the ion-exchange process originally had a patent
held by Permutit because it is a repeatable, understood, scientifically
proven process whereas the weird coils around pipes aren't.
I live in a very hard water area. The elec things don't do anything to
the reduce the limescale that appears on everything after only a few
days usage. The salt based one I've had for 14+ years actually makes the
water soft and it can be not only be easily felt when
lathering/shampooing but measured i.e. it removes bad stuff from the water.
So I recommend a proper water softener.
A word of advice to the OP, the cost of the salt will be a major element
over the long life of the machine. So get one that meters the salt. In
my very hard water area the salt costs are around £4/month for a family
of 4 with 2 bathrooms

We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are putting
in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are suggesting
either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid), or a
"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

FFS!
Read and re-read replies by Christian and dennis above.
Read replies from Dr. Evil only for their entertainment value. If this
is an on-line community, then Dr. Evil fills the role of our village
idiot.

There shouldn't be any requirement to treat the water used to fill the
sealed UFH system, as stated above. The amount of limescale in the
initial fill would be miniscule. There'd be problems, with any heating
system, if there were a leak and the system were constantly being
topped up.

You'd only need treated (de-ionized) water for the initial fill if
there were a requirement to use anti-freeze but this is unlikely and
generally inadvisable in the UK.

If they're trying to sell you a combi boiler for the system, then the
boiler manufacturers generally recommend the installation of a 'scale
prevention device' in hard water areas. If you haven't got such a
device, then the domestic hot water heat exchanger will fur up, like
kettles do in the area. By 'scale prevention device', they usually mean
an ion exchange water softener or a water conditioner, like a
Combimate. "Electronic Scale Inhibitors" are probably not acceptable
and may invalidate the guarantee for the heat exchanger. Check with the
manufacturers of the proposed boiler.

Be warned that combi boilers can prove to be unsatisfactory,
especially in the delivery rate of domestic hot water, compared with
the traditional stored hot water systems most people are familiar with.
It's been discussed unto death here previously, so search the archives.
Some combis are OK in some applications, but they're being mis-sold
worse than personal pensions were in the 80s.

Dr. Evil will presently recommend 2 combis. Ignore him.

"Aidan" wrote in message
oups.com...
We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are
putting
in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are
suggesting
either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid), or
a
"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

FFS!
Read and re-read replies by Christian and dennis above.
Read replies from Dr. Evil only for their entertainment value. If this
is an on-line community, then Dr. Evil fills the role of our village
idiot.

I'm an electronic engineer by degree, and a scientist by profession, so I'm
deeply sceptical about these electronic gizmos which basically seem to be
just a 555 oscillator and a couple of coils; about £1.50 worth of bits (if
that)...

I have no intention of using one, but wanted to know what the real-world
experiences were.

We are using a complex geothermal heating system from Ice Energy, and the
UFH should not need softenting - the question is whether it's worth doing it
for the house - the missus and daughter might like it, and compared with the
expense of the geothermal stuff, it's insignificant...

Mike

so I'm deeply sceptical about these electronic gizmos

Discussed here recently, so search archives. Someone may be able to
supply a link.
The general consensus was that they're a con. My sole experience was
that they seemed to have some beneficial effect used on electrode
boiler steam humidifiers; this was based on hearsay & I remain
sceptical. Dr. Evil thinks they work.

Ion exchange water softeners are T&T technology, also discussed here
previously. Some who have had them swear by them. They'll use a sack of
salt a month, depending on water hardness & consumption. If you can get
the salt from a cash&carry type place (Costco, Makro, etc) it's a lot
cheaper than the local hardware shop. The drain should go into the foul
water drains, not surface water. Don't put softened water into the
heating and don't drink it. I'd be wary of using it on any system with
oldish copper pipes with lead solder; PEX plastic pipes would be
preferable.

I've got a softener. My wife had previous experience of one (in
Maidstone area) and hates them. She won't use softened water so it only
supplies the washing machine. She is illogical, Captain.

In message , Mike Deblis
writes
"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None whatsoever, unless you consider
"working" in terms of making their
inventors very rich by supplying a

Stop making thing up. I have one and it works.

How do you know?

Jeezus told him so

--
geoff

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:02:58 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

Mine works


When I lived in a hard water area, I decided to prove that these things
were pointless snake-oil by building one (from an Elektor plan, AFAIR).
I was absolutely amazed to find that it _worked_.

However if you report that yours works, then clearly I must have been
mistaken.

"MIke Deblis" wrote in message
...
"Aidan" wrote in message
oups.com...
We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are
putting
in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are
suggesting
either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid),
or
a
"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

FFS!
Read and re-read replies by Christian and dennis above.
Read replies from Dr. Evil only for their entertainment value. If this
is an on-line community, then Dr. Evil fills the role of our village
idiot.

I'm an electronic engineer by degree, and a scientist by profession, so
I'm
deeply sceptical about these electronic gizmos which basically seem to be
just a 555 oscillator and a couple of coils;

They are not. There are many different types of units. Some use FM radio
signals, others AM, other different again. The likes of Scalewatcher have a
good success rate. I'm sure there are con jobs out there.

I have an Aqua Dial and it works. Even Fernox sell one.

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"Aidan" wrote in message
oups.com...
We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are
putting
in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are
suggesting
either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid), or
a
"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

FFS!
Read and re-read replies by Christian and dennis above.
Read replies from Dr. Evil only for their entertainment value. If this
is an on-line community, then Dr. Evil fills the role of our village
idiot.

An idiot with an electronic unit that WORKS!!!! The only idiots around here
are the know-it-alls like you. The amateur know-it-alls who know nothing.

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"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Doctor Evil wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Mike Deblis wrote:

Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None.


Mine works

snip tripe

MINE WORKS!!!

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"OldBill" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..

Mike Deblis wrote:

Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None.

Mine works

Good for you

Thank you. It works.

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"Mike" wrote in message
...

"Mike Deblis" wrote in message
...
Hi,

We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are
putting
in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are
suggesting
either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid), or
a
"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

No.

Mine works. There is lots of evidence they work.

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"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:02:58 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

Mine works


When I lived in a hard water area, I decided to prove that these things
were pointless snake-oil by building one (from an Elektor plan, AFAIR).
I was absolutely amazed to find that it _worked_.

However if you report that yours works, then clearly I must have been
mistaken.

I hope yours never worked. Mine does.

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In message , Doctor Evil
writes

FFS!
Read and re-read replies by Christian and dennis above.
Read replies from Dr. Evil only for their entertainment value. If this
is an on-line community, then Dr. Evil fills the role of our village
idiot.

I'm an electronic engineer by degree, and a scientist by profession, so
I'm
deeply sceptical about these electronic gizmos which basically seem to be
just a 555 oscillator and a couple of coils;

They are not. There are many different types of units. Some use FM radio
signals, others AM,

Capital radio's best for soft water

other different again. The likes of Scalewatcher have a
good success rate. I'm sure there are con jobs out there.

I have an Aqua Dial and it works. Even Fernox sell one.

What, con jobs ?

--
geoff

MIke Deblis wrote:

"Aidan" wrote in message
oups.com...

We live near Tonbridge in Kent, which is a hard water area. We are

putting

in UFH, and the supplier is recommending a softener - they are

suggesting

either a "Salamander Electrolytic Scale Inhibitor" (approx 170 quid), or

a

"Genus SD500 metered high-flow water softener" (approx. 490 quid).

FFS!
Read and re-read replies by Christian and dennis above.
Read replies from Dr. Evil only for their entertainment value. If this
is an on-line community, then Dr. Evil fills the role of our village
idiot.


I'm an electronic engineer by degree, and a scientist by profession, so I'm
deeply sceptical about these electronic gizmos which basically seem to be
just a 555 oscillator and a couple of coils; about £1.50 worth of bits (if
that)...

I have no intention of using one, but wanted to know what the real-world
experiences were.

We are using a complex geothermal heating system from Ice Energy, and the
UFH should not need softenting - the question is whether it's worth doing it
for the house - the missus and daughter might like it, and compared with the
expense of the geothermal stuff, it's insignificant...


What you spend on salt, you save on soap.

A bar of soap that used to last a couple of weeks now last months..

No furred up taps either wit seals going from lime deposists.

I get through about £1 a week on salt - we are profligate with all water
here.



Mike

In message , Steve Firth
writes
Doctor Evil wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Doctor Evil wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Mike Deblis wrote:

Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all?

None.


Mine works

snip tripe

MINE WORKS!!!

No it doesn't, in that respect it is just like your

????
brain.
????
--
geoff

Doctor Evil wrote:

They are not. There are many different types of units. Some use FM radio
signals, others AM, other different again. The likes of Scalewatcher have a
good success rate. I'm sure there are con jobs out there.

Magnetic fields I can understang going through a copper walled tube, but
Radio waves however modulated (of which I can see absolutely no point
of amplitude modulation as frequency remains constant) would not even
reach the water.

or am I missing something?

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

In message , "Pet @
www.gymratz.co.uk" writes
Doctor Evil wrote:

They are not. There are many different types of units. Some use FM radio
signals, others AM, other different again. The likes of Scalewatcher have a
good success rate. I'm sure there are con jobs out there.

Magnetic fields I can understang going through a copper walled tube,
but Radio waves however modulated (of which I can see absolutely no
point of amplitude modulation as frequency remains constant) would not
even reach the water.

or am I missing something?

Absolutely ...

You're taking dIMM seriously

He's here for entertainment

That's it

--
geoff