raden wrote:
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

They are not. There are many different types of units. Some use FM
radio
signals, others AM, other different again.

So I could simply play Radio 4

snip total madness

You're more likely to get Madness on Radio 1 or 2

Very unlikely on 1.
More likely on 4, I'd say.

In message , Ian
Stirling writes
raden wrote:
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
k...
Doctor Evil wrote:

They are not. There are many different types of units. Some use FM
radio
signals, others AM, other different again.

So I could simply play Radio 4

snip total madness

You're more likely to get Madness on Radio 1 or 2

Very unlikely on 1.
More likely on 4, I'd say.

??

I'm not sure who is sadder

--
geoff

John Rumm wrote:

Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk wrote:

Radio waves however modulated (of which I can see absolutely no point
of amplitude modulation as frequency remains constant) would not even
reach the water.


Yes the pipe should act as a nice Faraday cage.

But not a magnetic one. the M part of the EM wave dominates in the near
field and yes, its entirely possible to inject RF energy magnetically
through a pipe. And yes, it cam cause or modify chemical reactions.

It never could soften the water though. The actual claims of these
devices are that they modify the cystal type so that limescale becomes
powdery ,not hard lumps, so does not clog.


In short they are not softeners at all: They merely prevent (allegedly)
build up of hard scale, and do nothing for soap scum etc etc.



(Minor unrelated point for the truly pedantic, but the frequency of an
Amplitude Modulated signal will not remain constant because the waveform
will no longer be sinusoidal (otherwise it would use effectively zero
bandwidth))

raden wrote:

I'm not sure who is sadder

Radio 2 definitely.... ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
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\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:01:51 +0100, OldBill
wrote:

[snip]

Ok sonny doubt away but I did know that 20 years ago as I have degree
in elec eng and am CEng MIEE. But I'm no chemist but I'll bet 50 quid
that **** can't soften water. Its possible it may have some minor effect
in minimizing scale formation in Dr Evil's closed system but it can't
possibly reduce the limescale on my kitchen sink. That would be in the
realms of cold fusion.


Soft water *and* free unlimited power. Sold!
--
I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it
says something about human nature that the only form of
life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've
created life in our own image. - Stephen Hawking

raden wrote:
In message , Mike
writes


"raden" wrote in message
...

Doctor Evil wrote:

Some use FM radio
signals, others AM

The difference between unmodulated FM and AM being?


Oh a quiz.

OK dIMM, what does unmodulated AM and FM look like ?

Uh? they don't LOOK like anything because they aren't in the visible
spectrum?

They can be

You know good and well what I mean


I doubt if he does actually :-)


Ok sonny doubt away but I did know that 20 years ago as I have degree
in elec eng and am CEng MIEE. But I'm no chemist but I'll bet 50 quid
that **** can't soften water. Its possible it may have some minor effect
in minimizing scale formation in Dr Evil's closed system but it can't
possibly reduce the limescale on my kitchen sink. That would be in the
realms of cold fusion.

Chipmunk wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:01:51 +0100, OldBill
wrote:

[snip]


Ok sonny doubt away but I did know that 20 years ago as I have degree
in elec eng and am CEng MIEE. But I'm no chemist but I'll bet 50 quid
that **** can't soften water. Its possible it may have some minor effect
in minimizing scale formation in Dr Evil's closed system but it can't
possibly reduce the limescale on my kitchen sink. That would be in the
realms of cold fusion.



Soft water *and* free unlimited power. Sold!
What chemical you on?

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:45:40 +0100, "Mike Deblis"
wrote:

Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all? If they do, it'd be very
convenient, as the SD500 requires filling with salt every 4 months...

One point worth making is that the Drinking Water Inspectorate
recommend that you shouldn't drink artificially softened water and
certainly shouldn't give it to children.

For this reason it's important that you have a non-softened tap
connectected before the softener, to supply drinking water.

sponix

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:45:40 +0100, "Mike Deblis"
wrote:

Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all? If they do, it'd be very
convenient, as the SD500 requires filling with salt every 4 months...

One point worth making is that the Drinking Water Inspectorate
recommend that you shouldn't drink artificially softened water and
certainly shouldn't give it to children.

For this reason it's important that you have a non-softened tap
connectected before the softener, to supply drinking water.

Though electronic scale inhibitors are probably safe in this regard...

On 10 Jun 2005 09:42:55 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Though electronic scale inhibitors are probably safe in this regard...

Or those stick on magnet things they were selling a few years back.
Guaranteed not to make the water harmful! LOL!

sponix

On 10/06/2005 09:27 s--p--o--n--i--x gurgled:

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:45:40 +0100, "Mike Deblis"
wrote:

Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all? If they do, it'd be very
convenient, as the SD500 requires filling with salt every 4 months...

One point worth making is that the Drinking Water Inspectorate
recommend that you shouldn't drink artificially softened water and
certainly shouldn't give it to children.

For this reason it's important that you have a non-softened tap
connectected before the softener, to supply drinking water.


Does this apply even if the water is boiled?

Parish

yes

On 10/06/2005 13:00 Aidan gurgled:

yes


Thanks. So will those water filter jugs, e.g. Brita, remove whatever the
softener leaves in the water (salt?) that makes it unsuitable for drinking?

Also, do water softeners, like the Genus recommended here, need regular
servicing - such as the resin beads replacing? Someone I knew who had
one used to have it serviced every year (but he was a bit of a funny
bugger).

This thread has got me thinking about softeners again. When we moved
here 10 years ago, from a soft water area, we thought about one but they
cost thousands - I hadn't realized they had come down in price so much :-)

Parish

Thanks. So will those water filter jugs, e.g. Brita, remove whatever the
softener leaves in the water (salt?) that makes it unsuitable for
drinking?

Nope. The softener converts calcium carbonate (scale) to sodium carbonate
(washing soda ?) which doesn't scale. Water filter wont remove this. Can
drink it fine as well, I do, but not if on a reduced sodium diet or for
kids.

Also, do water softeners, like the Genus recommended here, need regular
servicing - such as the resin beads replacing? Someone I knew who had one
used to have it serviced every year (but he was a bit of a funny bugger).

My Dad has had his softener for about 15 years now, only "servicing" is add
salt once or twice a month and changing a connecting house after 15 years as
it looked a bit cracked.

This thread has got me thinking about softeners again. When we moved here
10 years ago, from a soft water area, we thought about one but they cost
thousands - I hadn't realized they had come down in price so much :-)

Mine is a twin cylinder metered softener (recharges a cyclinder when a
certain amount of water had flowed) and consumes 1/3-1/2 bag salt a month
(£5 a bag) and thats with a house of 4 having showers and baths most days as
well as having all the toilets fed with soft water.

On 10/06/2005 15:34 Ian_m gurgled:

Thanks. So will those water filter jugs, e.g. Brita, remove whatever the
softener leaves in the water (salt?) that makes it unsuitable for
drinking?

Nope. The softener converts calcium carbonate (scale) to sodium carbonate
(washing soda ?) which doesn't scale. Water filter wont remove this. Can
drink it fine as well, I do, but not if on a reduced sodium diet or for
kids.


Ah, so it's just high sodium levels then. Guess I'd have to stick to
using unsoftened water and the Brita for the kettle then - although
given the cost of the cartridges for then it would probably be cheaper
to replace the kettle every 12-18 months.

Also, do water softeners, like the Genus recommended here, need regular
servicing - such as the resin beads replacing? Someone I knew who had one
used to have it serviced every year (but he was a bit of a funny bugger).

My Dad has had his softener for about 15 years now, only "servicing" is add
salt once or twice a month and changing a connecting house after 15 years as
it looked a bit cracked.


I couldn't really see what would need servicing - but like I said, this
guy was a bit odd.

This thread has got me thinking about softeners again. When we moved here
10 years ago, from a soft water area, we thought about one but they cost
thousands - I hadn't realized they had come down in price so much :-)

Mine is a twin cylinder metered softener (recharges a cyclinder when a
certain amount of water had flowed) and consumes 1/3-1/2 bag salt a month
(£5 a bag) and thats with a house of 4 having showers and baths most days as
well as having all the toilets fed with soft water.



Plus a bit of electricity as well I guess? So insignificant running
costs :-)

Thanks for the help/advice.

Regards,

Parish

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:51:03 +0100, Parish wrote:


Does this apply even if the water is boiled?

Yes, the softener works by substituting sodium for calcium ions. In
fact the amount of sodium ion increase in hard water areas is quite
low - about the same as you would get from eating a couple of slices
of bread a day. The water is not harmful, but for those on a
restricted sodium diet (normally people with high blood pressure -
not children) it can give them extra sodium without them being aware.
Hence the need for a tap to be left unsoftened (usually the kitchen
sink tap). Other than the slight increase in sodium content the
water is the same as it was beforehand. Most softeners include some
form of precious metal bacteriocidal system anyway.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:51:18 +0100, Parish wrote:

Ah, so it's just high sodium levels then. Guess I'd have to stick to
using unsoftened water and the Brita for the kettle then - although
given the cost of the cartridges for then it would probably be cheaper
to replace the kettle every 12-18 months.

Really? I've never had a kettle fail in 16 years of using two in a
hard water area. They need to be filled above the whole element
though, not just the flat spiral at the bottom.

cheers,
Pete.

Ian Stirling wrote:

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:45:40 +0100, "Mike Deblis"
wrote:


Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all? If they do, it'd be very
convenient, as the SD500 requires filling with salt every 4 months...

One point worth making is that the Drinking Water Inspectorate
recommend that you shouldn't drink artificially softened water and
certainly shouldn't give it to children.

For this reason it's important that you have a non-softened tap
connectected before the softener, to supply drinking water.


Though electronic scale inhibitors are probably safe in this regard...

And in fact the sodium in a gallon of softened water is less than in a
packet of crisps...which are regularly fed to chilldrunnah.

Parish wrote:

On 10/06/2005 09:27 s--p--o--n--i--x gurgled:

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:45:40 +0100, "Mike Deblis"
wrote:

Are these reasonable options? Is there any evidence at all that these
"electronic" scale inhibitors work at all? If they do, it'd be very
convenient, as the SD500 requires filling with salt every 4 months...


One point worth making is that the Drinking Water Inspectorate
recommend that you shouldn't drink artificially softened water and
certainly shouldn't give it to children.

For this reason it's important that you have a non-softened tap
connectected before the softener, to supply drinking water.


Does this apply even if the water is boiled?
Yes, but its ********.

Hardness is calcium carbonate. Clogs arteries and chalk up yer
Capillaries, and if you want calcium for your bones drink milk or take a
pill..

It gets converted to sodium carbonate, one of the things that makes
mineral water taste 'nice; and is sold as a 'healthy' alternative to
mains water.

However some dickhead somewhere reads something about 'low sodium being
good for hearts' and thinks that means sodium carbonate in small
quantities. Hence all this crap.

..


Parish

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:11:16 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...


Placebos work too.

They don't.


Placebos are commonly used in clinical trials, and in some instances
people on the placebo experience an improvement in the symptoms that
the real drug was intended to treat.

THe effect was because the patient believed that it was the real thing
and worked or because they didn't want to believe that it wasn't
working.

So an electronic water conditioner "works" because some people want to
believe it does and don't want to embarrass themselves when they
realise that they've been had.

Clinical trials are also peer-reviewed for scientific soundness.
Your peers here seem to be giving you the thumbs down on the efficacy
of these conditioners, so the suggestion is that Dr Evil is something
of a quack.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:11:16 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...


Placebos work too.

They don't.


Placebos are commonly used in clinical trials, and in some instances
people on the placebo experience an improvement in the symptoms that
the real drug was intended to treat.

THe effect was because the patient believed that it was the real thing
and worked or because they didn't want to believe that it wasn't
working.

That is mental not physical. Electronic water descalers are physical. It
can be seen not felt.


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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:59:26 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:11:16 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...


Placebos work too.

They don't.


Placebos are commonly used in clinical trials, and in some instances
people on the placebo experience an improvement in the symptoms that
the real drug was intended to treat.

THe effect was because the patient believed that it was the real thing
and worked or because they didn't want to believe that it wasn't
working.

That is mental not physical. Electronic water descalers are physical. It
can be seen not felt.


This is the point. A mental belief that something apparently physical
works means that in the perception of the person holding the belief it
is all fact, even when there is no evidence to support the belief.







--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:59:26 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:11:16 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...


Placebos work too.

They don't.


Placebos are commonly used in clinical trials, and in some instances
people on the placebo experience an improvement in the symptoms that
the real drug was intended to treat.

THe effect was because the patient believed that it was the real thing
and worked or because they didn't want to believe that it wasn't
working.

That is mental not physical. Electronic water descalers are physical.
It
can be seen not felt.

This is the point.

It isn't. Again:
"That is mental not physical. Electronic water descalers are physical. It
can be seen not felt."

---
The information contained in this post is not copyright and may be published
http://www.diybanter.com


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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:34:32 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



That is mental not physical. Electronic water descalers are physical.
It
can be seen not felt.

This is the point.

It isn't. Again:
"That is mental not physical. Electronic water descalers are physical. It
can be seen not felt."


The strength of your faith is commendable.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:34:32 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



That is mental not physical. Electronic water descalers are physical.
It
can be seen not felt.

This is the point.

It isn't. Again:
"That is mental not physical. Electronic water
descalers are physical. It can be seen not felt."

The strength of your faith is commendable.

the strength of my logic is commendable. I

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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:24:09 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:34:32 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



That is mental not physical. Electronic water descalers are physical.
It
can be seen not felt.

This is the point.

It isn't. Again:
"That is mental not physical. Electronic water
descalers are physical. It can be seen not felt."

The strength of your faith is commendable.

the strength of my logic is commendable. I


You should publish a book. JK Rowling has made a lot of money from
writing fantasy stories.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Capillaries, and if you want calcium for your bones drink milk or take a
pill..

Contrary to popular belief, milk is not actually that good as a source
of calcium, since you need magnesium as a cofactor the be able to absorb
the calcium, and there is not much of that in milk

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:36:04 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

You should publish a book. JK Rowling has made a lot of money from
writing fantasy stories.

But Hogwarts is credible.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:24:09 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:34:32 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



That is mental not physical. Electronic water descalers are
physical.
It
can be seen not felt.

This is the point.

It isn't. Again:
"That is mental not physical. Electronic water
descalers are physical. It can be seen not felt."

The strength of your faith is commendable.

the strength of my logic is commendable. I

You should publish a book.

I should

JK Rowling has made a lot of money from
writing fantasy stories.

I'm sure you have read them all, with your fantasy logic .