Hi all, I want pay someone to produce multiple copies of a piece of
metal in a certain shape. This piece of metal will be small (about 1 cm
x 1 cm x 1.5 millimeters.) It will have a small slit in it, which is
meant to fit snugly over another piece of metal, so the specified
dimensions of the metal piece being produced must be reproduced with a
very high amount of precision and accuracy.

I am pretty new and clueless to the world of metalworking, but I have a
background in the physical sciences and math, and am a fast learner.
Can anyone suggest a production method for this piece of metal that I'm
talking about? Perhaps die casting?

If anyone has any introduction to metalworking websites/documents that
they think would be helpful, I would greatly appreaciate any
suggestions here as well

On 6 Mar 2005 12:30:07 -0800, wrote:

Hi all, I want pay someone to produce multiple copies of a piece of
metal in a certain shape. This piece of metal will be small (about 1 cm
x 1 cm x 1.5 millimeters.) It will have a small slit in it, which is
meant to fit snugly over another piece of metal, so the specified
dimensions of the metal piece being produced must be reproduced with a
very high amount of precision and accuracy.

I am pretty new and clueless to the world of metalworking, but I have a
background in the physical sciences and math, and am a fast learner.
Can anyone suggest a production method for this piece of metal that I'm
talking about? Perhaps die casting?

If anyone has any introduction to metalworking websites/documents that
they think would be helpful, I would greatly appreaciate any
suggestions here as well

You need to define "high precision" and "snugly" quantitatively to get
any useful responses. If you don't have a feel for tolerances in
clearances in mm (or microns), a description of function could be
helpful: "no perceptible play", etc. The required precision,
tolerances and quantity will define both the process used and the
cost.

If not all made in the same batch, the pieces that fit into the slit
will themselves have some thickness variation. How much? Depends on
what you specify, of course.

wrote:

Hi all, I want pay someone to produce multiple copies of a piece of
metal in a certain shape. This piece of metal will be small (about 1 cm
x 1 cm x 1.5 millimeters.) It will have a small slit in it, which is
meant to fit snugly over another piece of metal, so the specified
dimensions of the metal piece being produced must be reproduced with a
very high amount of precision and accuracy.

I am pretty new and clueless to the world of metalworking, but I have a
background in the physical sciences and math, and am a fast learner.
Can anyone suggest a production method for this piece of metal that I'm
talking about? Perhaps die casting?

If anyone has any introduction to metalworking websites/documents that
they think would be helpful, I would greatly appreaciate any
suggestions here as well

Very high accuracy? Measured with a wooden ruler or with an electron
microscope? Somewhere in between?

How about just giving a tolerance that is acceptable. That will aid a
great deal in deciding which production method will work best.

Also, do you want multiple 6 or multiple 60 000. That too will make a
difference.

Lesse.Hand cutting, punch press, casting, waterjet, laser cutting, wire
EDM, and a couple other methods are all available, but each has it's
advantages and costs, depending on how you wish to end up. Some methods
will work more economically for small number runs while others are not
cost effective until you make several hundred or thousand parts.

Oh yeah! What material? Lead? Titanium? Carbide? Pot metal? It matters.

In short, to get a useful answer, you will have to provide a bit more
useful info.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

I understand the concept of tolerances, but I'm not sure what tolerance
would result in "no perceptible play," which is what I'm trying to
achieve.

This metal piece that I'm trying to manufacture is intended to be used
to extend the length of a knob on a musical instrument. The metal
piece will be moved a lot in the course of the use of the instrument,
and will need to remain snugly in place over the metal tab which it fit
over, with no perceptible play. There won't be a lot of force in the
direction that would pull the tab off, but there will be a small
amount.

Ideally, I would like to consult with someone who could manufacture the
part for me, who could also help me work all of the minutia that need
to be worked out to get the part to function as I would like it to.

However, if this isn't available or is prohibitively costly, I can
learn how to work out the minutia myself. In this case, I would need
to either:

a) measure the magnitude and direction of the forces that are typically
applied to this part of the musical instrument, and use those combined
with information about the materials being used to calculate how snug
the metal piece will need to be.

or

b) produce a few prototypes and simply test them to see how well they
function. This would be much easier than option (a), but I don't know
if it will be exceedingly costly.



I don't have anything more precise and accurate than a ruler to measure
with, but I know that the metal piece that I'm trying to produce will
need to be manufactured with a tolerance for fluctuation from the
desired dimensions of less than a millimeter.

Any ideas? Thanks very much again

-Max

I don't have anything more precise and accurate than a ruler to measure
with, but I know that the metal piece that I'm trying to produce will
need to be manufactured with a tolerance for fluctuation from the
desired dimensions of less than a millimeter.

At first, I would like to manufacture as small a number as possible to
make sure that they function as I'm hoping they'll function. Once I
know that they function as I want them to function, I really only need
a small number of them... maybe around 100. If other people find them
helpful, I may want to manufacture more later.

Also, the number that I would like to manufacture all depends on the
cost... if manufacturing 100 costs practically the same as
manufacturing 1000, I'll go for manufacturing 100. But if
manufacturing 1000 is much more costly than manufacturing 100, I'll
have 100 made for now, and make more later if they're needed.

As far as material to construct the part out of, I am really needing in
guidance... perhaps if I describe the purpose of the part that I'm
trying to create it will help.

This metal piece that I'm trying to manufacture is intended to be used
to extend the length of a knob on a musical instrument. This metal
piece will be moved a lot in the course of the use of the instrument,
and will need to remain snugly in place over the metal tab which it fit
over, with no perceptible play. There won't be a lot of force in the
direction that would pull the tab off, but there will be a small
amount.

Ideally, I would like to consult with someone who could manufacture the
part for me, who could also help me work all of the minutia that need
to be worked out to get the part to function as I would like it to.

However, if this isn't available or is prohibitively costly, I can
learn how to work out the minutia myself. In this case, I would need
to either:

a) measure the magnitude and direction of the forces that are typically
applied to this part of the musical instrument, and use those combined
with information about the materials being used to calculate how snug
the metal piece will need to be.

or

b) produce a few prototypes and simply test them to see how well they
function. This would be much easier than option (a), but I don't know
if it will be exceedingly costly.

Any ideas? Thanks very much again

-Max

I forgot to add that since the part will be used in a musical
instrument, it will be moved and banged on a lot (only by the range of
forces exerted in the use of the musical instrument) and should not get
bent out of shape from these forces.

I'm sure that material is the key factor in this, so that is something
that I need to factor in as well.

In article .com,
wrote:
I understand the concept of tolerances, but I'm not sure what tolerance
would result in "no perceptible play," which is what I'm trying to
achieve.

"No perceptible play" needs to also take into account the
variation in dimensions of the piece to which it will be fitted. Unless
you are able to control the dimensions of the part on all of the
instruments to which your part would be applied, yours would need to be
adjustable to make up for that.

I would consider "no perceptible play" to be in the vicinity of
a light interference fit, and without knowledge of and control of the
dimensions of the piece to which it fits, I don't think that you can get
away without the ability to adjust.

It sort of sounds like an extension of something like a flute
key, to enable a smaller hand to reach it. And I'm pretty sure that
flute keys (even within the same maker) are not that consistent in
thickness.

[ ... ]

I don't have anything more precise and accurate than a ruler to measure
with, but I know that the metal piece that I'm trying to produce will
need to be manufactured with a tolerance for fluctuation from the
desired dimensions of less than a millimeter.

Significantly less -- and perhaps as tight as +/- 0.01mm (which
is close to 0.0005 inch).

You seriously need to improve your measuring instruments. And
if you are fitting something like a flute key, you probably can't use
the typical micrometer to do it, because the surface curves.

Any ideas? Thanks very much again

Not while you are being so close mouthed about the details. You
might want to start processing on a patent first, if you are so worried
about that.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 10 Mar 2005 19:23:09 -0800, wrote:

I forgot to add that since the part will be used in a musical
instrument, it will be moved and banged on a lot (only by the range of
forces exerted in the use of the musical instrument) and should not get
bent out of shape from these forces.

I'm sure that material is the key factor in this, so that is something
that I need to factor in as well.

I think you must invest the effort and buy the tools to develop the
skills you need, or find someone with the skills and tools you need
to work with you on this. In the latter case, in order to succeed
you'd need to fully disclose what you're trying to accomplish
because there are surely variables, constraints and opportunities for
innovation that you're unaware of.

You may wish to consult with an attorney if you're worried about how
to manage full disclosure. Patent is one course, NDA is another, but
the best and most effective (if most difficult to achieve) is trust
based on a mutually-beneficial endeavour. Legal stuff works mostly
to the profit of lawyers. Trust is better if you can find it and be
worthy of it.

In order to be comfortable doing that, you'll need to figure out how
you can work with someone having the necessary skills in a way that
is of interest to them as well. I'd suggest looking for a retired
person with the requisite skills and a few patents. Such a person
is not likely to steal your idea for two reasons: he demonstrably
has plenty of ideas of his own, so if he were inclined to pursue an
idea for profit he'd be pursuing his own ideas rather than bother with
yours. The benefit for the other may be only trivially monetary,
particularly if they don't need or seek money but merely enjoy
interesting projects and collaborations.

Some retired guys are like that. Finding one in your area would
work best so you could visit often to look at "stuff", tweak and try
in real time. In this scenario you should plan on doing all the scut
work of dealing with vendors etc yourself. Having an idea is about
3% of having a product. Having what you think is a good working
prototype is maybe 10%. The rest of the journey to "ka-ching" is
tedium and investment. YMMV.

An arrangement and relationship must be fair both ways in order to
work, but that just means that both parties feel that time spent is
rewarding and/or enjoyable in one way or another.

Good luck! Nothing Is Urgent. Having Fun Is Job 1.

I've researched into the applicable patent law, and the metal piece
that I'm trying to manufacture is too obvious to patent.

I agree that the relationship that you're describing would be ideal. I
would like to find someone like that to work with. In my experience
with business however, I've only ever encountered people that want to
screw you from every possible angle before you have the chance to know
what hit you.

I am by nature a person that wants to only engage in non-zero sum
exchanges (transactions from which all parties benefit). However, I've
learned from experience that if you don't protect yourself, you'll get
ripped off in a second, and that even the most seemingly fair and kind
person will probably switch personalities at the prospect of profit.
At the same time, there are some genuinely honest and fair people out
there, but they make up a much smaller percentage of the population
than most people would think.

In my present situation, the only way to protect myself would be to
either:

a) work with someone who is legit (if you can recommend anyone, I live
in the Chicagoland area. Like I said, I am only interested in engaging
in relationships in which everybody benefits, so the person to which
I'm referred to would benefit as well)

or

b) legally pin down the person who I work with such that they can't
take the idea, manufacture the part themself and start selling it (not
that they would probably know the target market anyway)


Of course, option A is much more preferable. However, if option A
doesn't pan out, do you know how an unconnected person finds a
metalworker that could do what I'm trying to have done?

Since you can't patent it, the only route left to you is to keep the
production methods a trade secret. You hire an attorney, have them draw
up a non-disclosure agreement, and get anyone associated with the
drafting or production of the product to sign it. That would include
partners, employees, and the owner or executive of any company you hire
to make it. Clearly mark all drawings as "proprietary" and number them.
Keep a record of who gets copies. Companies large and small do it all
the time because patents are usually a total waste of effort. See:

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/newpats.pdf

Of course if anyone has ever done something similar and it's on the web
or in a published document, you're screwed since NDAs generally aren't
enforceable for ideas and methods already in the public domain.

wrote:

I've researched into the applicable patent law, and the metal piece
that I'm trying to manufacture is too obvious to patent.

I agree that the relationship that you're describing would be ideal. I
would like to find someone like that to work with. In my experience
with business however, I've only ever encountered people that want to
screw you from every possible angle before you have the chance to know
what hit you.

I am by nature a person that wants to only engage in non-zero sum
exchanges (transactions from which all parties benefit). However, I've
learned from experience that if you don't protect yourself, you'll get
ripped off in a second, and that even the most seemingly fair and kind
person will probably switch personalities at the prospect of profit.
At the same time, there are some genuinely honest and fair people out
there, but they make up a much smaller percentage of the population
than most people would think.

In my present situation, the only way to protect myself would be to
either:

a) work with someone who is legit (if you can recommend anyone, I live
in the Chicagoland area. Like I said, I am only interested in engaging
in relationships in which everybody benefits, so the person to which
I'm referred to would benefit as well)

or

b) legally pin down the person who I work with such that they can't
take the idea, manufacture the part themself and start selling it (not
that they would probably know the target market anyway)


Of course, option A is much more preferable. However, if option A
doesn't pan out, do you know how an unconnected person finds a
metalworker that could do what I'm trying to have done?

Thanks for the tips Tim. Don Lancaster's arguments are pretty
consistent with the impression of the patent industry that I've
acquired through my research into it.

Dang ya know, one time someone was asking me to sign an NDA and I saved
it on my computer in the event that I might find use for it as a
boilerplate NDA for my own possible use in the future. Unfortunately,
my old computer crashed and I lost all of the data on it, including the
NDA.

Any chance someone has an NDA that I could alter and use as a
boilerplate? If so, you could discreetly contact me by email at
, and I could be indebted in your service.

On 11 Mar 2005 11:14:41 -0800, wrote:

I've researched into the applicable patent law, and the metal piece
that I'm trying to manufacture is too obvious to patent.

I agree that the relationship that you're describing would be ideal. I
would like to find someone like that to work with. In my experience
with business however, I've only ever encountered people that want to
screw you from every possible angle before you have the chance to know
what hit you.

I am by nature a person that wants to only engage in non-zero sum
exchanges (transactions from which all parties benefit). However, I've
learned from experience that if you don't protect yourself, you'll get
ripped off in a second, and that even the most seemingly fair and kind
person will probably switch personalities at the prospect of profit.
At the same time, there are some genuinely honest and fair people out
there, but they make up a much smaller percentage of the population
than most people would think.

In my present situation, the only way to protect myself would be to
either:

a) work with someone who is legit (if you can recommend anyone, I live
in the Chicagoland area. Like I said, I am only interested in engaging
in relationships in which everybody benefits, so the person to which
I'm referred to would benefit as well)

or

b) legally pin down the person who I work with such that they can't
take the idea, manufacture the part themself and start selling it (not
that they would probably know the target market anyway)


Of course, option A is much more preferable. However, if option A
doesn't pan out, do you know how an unconnected person finds a
metalworker that could do what I'm trying to have done?

Too bad you're not near Minneapolis!

You might see if there are retiree organizations of companies in your
area that would have employed the type of person you seek. In
Minneapols, for example, you could very likely find some guys thru the
Honeywell retiree organization. These orgs are set up for pro bono
volunteer work, but nobody spends all of their time doing that.

I probably spend half my time doing stuff like you describe, though
mostly in the area of designing electronic gadgets -- and even
building them now and then. I can tell you that the minute you
pulled legal papers out of your briefcase, I'd be gone in a
heartbeat. You might be better off asking about other such work a
person might have done and checking references. I'd have no problem
with that. There are a number of readers of this group that I think
would vouch for me. There must be guys in Chicagoland like that too;
it's just a matter of finding them.

that email address should read:

wrote:

I've researched into the applicable patent law, and the metal piece
that I'm trying to manufacture is too obvious to patent.

I agree that the relationship that you're describing would be ideal. I
would like to find someone like that to work with. In my experience
with business however, I've only ever encountered people that want to
screw you from every possible angle before you have the chance to know
what hit you.

Please don't take offense to this, but maybe
you could find a better bunch of people to
deal with. I'm not a young man and I've done
business all my life with a handshake backed
up with a half-page agreement. I've never felt
the need to sue anyone and I've never been sued.

I am by nature a person that wants to only engage in non-zero sum
exchanges (transactions from which all parties benefit). However, I've
learned from experience that if you don't protect yourself, you'll get
ripped off in a second, and that even the most seemingly fair and kind
person will probably switch personalities at the prospect of profit.
At the same time, there are some genuinely honest and fair people out
there, but they make up a much smaller percentage of the population
than most people would think.

In my present situation, the only way to protect myself would be to
either:

a) work with someone who is legit (if you can recommend anyone, I live
in the Chicagoland area. Like I said, I am only interested in engaging
in relationships in which everybody benefits, so the person to which
I'm referred to would benefit as well)

or

b) legally pin down the person who I work with such that they can't
take the idea, manufacture the part themself and start selling it (not
that they would probably know the target market anyway)


Of course, option A is much more preferable. However, if option A
doesn't pan out, do you know how an unconnected person finds a
metalworker that could do what I'm trying to have done?

On 11 Mar 2005 14:49:26 -0800, wrote:

that email address should read:



Here is one, but it'll cost you $14.95:

http://www.nightcats.com/sales/nda.html

I was looking at ways of starting small enterprises years ago, and kept
seeing suggestions to contact a local chapter Senior Corps of Retired
Executives (SCORE), for helpful information/guidance in establishing new
startups, grants, SBA approval, etc.
A local Chamber of Commerce or (enginneering/manufacturing) development
association might be able to suggest some contacts for design help.

The trouble I see with wanting to make a small metal part that could be a
great convenience in using this musical instrument, would be that a China
manufacturer could possibly flood the global market with only one week's
production of such a part.

It sounds as though the part could probably be prototyped with epoxy putty.
That would allow testing and improvements to be done without any serious
machining.
The putty can be cast on a piece of scrap material that has the same
dimensions as the instrument's part, and filed/sanded to an appropriate size
and shape, then painted (to conceal that it's just a lump of putty).
The putty model would give the inventor a 3-D part that can be measured, and
dimensions that can be transferred to metal. Fabrication costs could be
derived from the dimensions.

Follow the appropriate steps in copyright protection (witnessed, dated,
detailed drawings as the product evolves, etc) in case you decide to pursue
that later.

WB
.............

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On 11 Mar 2005 11:14:41 -0800, wrote:

I've researched into the applicable patent law, and the metal piece
that I'm trying to manufacture is too obvious to patent.

I agree that the relationship that you're describing would be ideal. I
would like to find someone like that to work with. In my experience
with business however, I've only ever encountered people that want to
screw you from every possible angle before you have the chance to know
what hit you.

I am by nature a person that wants to only engage in non-zero sum
exchanges (transactions from which all parties benefit). However, I've
learned from experience that if you don't protect yourself, you'll get
ripped off in a second, and that even the most seemingly fair and kind
person will probably switch personalities at the prospect of profit.
At the same time, there are some genuinely honest and fair people out
there, but they make up a much smaller percentage of the population
than most people would think.

In my present situation, the only way to protect myself would be to
either:

a) work with someone who is legit (if you can recommend anyone, I live
in the Chicagoland area. Like I said, I am only interested in engaging
in relationships in which everybody benefits, so the person to which
I'm referred to would benefit as well)

or

b) legally pin down the person who I work with such that they can't
take the idea, manufacture the part themself and start selling it (not
that they would probably know the target market anyway)


Of course, option A is much more preferable. However, if option A
doesn't pan out, do you know how an unconnected person finds a
metalworker that could do what I'm trying to have done?

Too bad you're not near Minneapolis!

You might see if there are retiree organizations of companies in your
area that would have employed the type of person you seek. In
Minneapols, for example, you could very likely find some guys thru the
Honeywell retiree organization. These orgs are set up for pro bono
volunteer work, but nobody spends all of their time doing that.

I probably spend half my time doing stuff like you describe, though
mostly in the area of designing electronic gadgets -- and even
building them now and then. I can tell you that the minute you
pulled legal papers out of your briefcase, I'd be gone in a
heartbeat. You might be better off asking about other such work a
person might have done and checking references. I'd have no problem
with that. There are a number of readers of this group that I think
would vouch for me. There must be guys in Chicagoland like that too;
it's just a matter of finding them.







----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:28:35 -0500, "Wild Bill"
wrote:

I was looking at ways of starting small enterprises years ago, and kept
seeing suggestions to contact a local chapter Senior Corps of Retired
Executives (SCORE), for helpful information/guidance in establishing new
startups, grants, SBA approval, etc.
A local Chamber of Commerce or (enginneering/manufacturing) development
association might be able to suggest some contacts for design help.

The trouble I see with wanting to make a small metal part that could be a
great convenience in using this musical instrument, would be that a China
manufacturer could possibly flood the global market with only one week's
production of such a part.

It sounds as though the part could probably be prototyped with epoxy putty.
That would allow testing and improvements to be done without any serious
machining.
The putty can be cast on a piece of scrap material that has the same
dimensions as the instrument's part, and filed/sanded to an appropriate size
and shape, then painted (to conceal that it's just a lump of putty).
The putty model would give the inventor a 3-D part that can be measured, and
dimensions that can be transferred to metal. Fabrication costs could be
derived from the dimensions.

Follow the appropriate steps in copyright protection (witnessed, dated,
detailed drawings as the product evolves, etc) in case you decide to pursue
that later.

Unfortunately, many retired executives only know how the large company
they retired from did things with plenty of money to invest and many
minions to do the work. The retired executives I know are utterly
clueless about how to approach a niche market. Large corporations
don't pursue niche markets.

Chinese mfrs are used by US marketing and distribution businesses to
sell products here. The competition for mass market products isn't
offshore factories, but domestic importers who use offshore factories.

Niche markets, like musical instruments, may be a different story.
Wal-Mart doesn't sell musical instruments. I have a daughter who
works in the music production biz. I see about no Asian imports in
the catalogs that purvey to that trade.

It takes a pretty good craftsman to file something to a precision fit.
An even finer fit and feel can be achieved with lapping, probably
well beyond what's necessary here. Some gunsmiths have this skill.
I'd strongly prefer brass to putty; it files easily enough, can take
a fine finish and it can be nickel-plated for appearance -- and nickel
has pretty good lubricity and wear resistance as well. A nice fit
with silky-smooth feel would be clear evidence that it's not a likely
candidate for a Chinese factory -- at least not yet.

Max, I think your steps might be as follows:

First, make or have made a good working prototype, perhaps with the
help of a trusted collaborator.

Second, hit the road with the prototype to get customer feedback.

Redesign based on feedback.

Develop a specification, perhaps with help of a trusted collaborator,
that a machineshop or other manufactury can produce to spec in the
volume you anticipate. You don't need to tell them what it is or
what it's for at that point, and reputable businesses won't care
because they know they don't grow by screwing their customers. They
make parts to print. Up to you to make the specification and print
so that parts meeting spec will do what you want. This is a very
important point. If you closely hold control than you must own
the result if what you get meets your spec but not your intent. Ya
can't have it both ways.

If you can't find a trusted collaborator: buy a set of warding
files, a jeweller's fretsaw, some brass and gae thee from the keyboard
to the shop. Then make your specification and print and go shopping.

In article , Don Foreman says...

Niche markets, like musical instruments, may be a different story.
Wal-Mart doesn't sell musical instruments.

Oddly, ours does. They sell guitars. I wonder if they're
going to branch out in this area.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 13 Mar 2005 08:41:43 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Don Foreman says...

Niche markets, like musical instruments, may be a different story.
Wal-Mart doesn't sell musical instruments.

Oddly, ours does. They sell guitars. I wonder if they're
going to branch out in this area.

See any Gibson or Gretsch guiltars there? They sell tools, too!

I totally agree that I would do much better working with a different
bunch of people than I've previously dealt with : )

Perhaps I will get a new outlook on business dealings as I continue to
work with different people.