My present lathe is a Jet 123 6P which I have had for maybe twenty years,
and I really, really don't like it. As a lathe it would make a good anchor
(I do exaggerate, but not much). My previous lathe was a nice 11" Logan
which I loved, flat belt and all, but sold over thirty years back when I was
told
that you couldn't get parts anymore. So I was a bit spoiled. Now I want some
precision.
I plan on making small parts, mostly under 2" diameter for an experimental
engine that has been growing in my basement for several years. I doubt that
I could do better than +/- .005 with the Jet so part-to-part variation would
be unacceptable then both variation and concentricity should be better than
+/- .0001.

My short list of lathes is quite short: The Prazi II Apollo D2400DLX and the
Prazi II Apollo D6000, both equipped with 2 axis DRO's.
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
are "hobby lathes".

Are the machines good, bad, indifferent?
What might be better options?

It would be great if I could find a used Hardinge HLV-H, or a Monarch EE in
that price neighborhood (or realistically a few thou. more) that was under
power
in either Connecticut or Massachusetts so I can check it out in use.
I was burned a few years back buying a Bridgeport CNC milling machine, and I
don't
want that sort of hassle again! I wouldn't turn up my nose a Levin or a
Schaublin, but
I'm not holding my breath.

WEL

Not sure about the current crop of Prazi machines since the original
manufacturer Saupe & Sohn went bankrupt. I think they are now sourcing all
the parts in China as oppossed to Czech Republic in the past. Maybe
assembly is still being done somewhere in Germany which has a funny law
which allows anything imported and then re-exported to be labled " Made in
Germany". I would e-mail them and ask some pointed questions and then see
if they are willing to respond in writing ( e-mail)


My present lathe is a Jet 123 6P which I have had for maybe twenty years,
and I really, really don't like it. As a lathe it would make a good anchor
(I do exaggerate, but not much). My previous lathe was a nice 11" Logan
which I loved, flat belt and all, but sold over thirty years back when I
was
told
that you couldn't get parts anymore. So I was a bit spoiled. Now I want
some
precision.
I plan on making small parts, mostly under 2" diameter for an experimental
engine that has been growing in my basement for several years. I doubt
that
I could do better than +/- .005 with the Jet so part-to-part variation
would
be unacceptable then both variation and concentricity should be better
than
+/- .0001.

My short list of lathes is quite short: The Prazi II Apollo D2400DLX and
the
Prazi II Apollo D6000, both equipped with 2 axis DRO's.
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
are "hobby lathes".

Are the machines good, bad, indifferent?
What might be better options?

It would be great if I could find a used Hardinge HLV-H, or a Monarch EE
in
that price neighborhood (or realistically a few thou. more) that was under
power
in either Connecticut or Massachusetts so I can check it out in use.
I was burned a few years back buying a Bridgeport CNC milling machine, and
I
don't
want that sort of hassle again! I wouldn't turn up my nose a Levin or a
Schaublin, but
I'm not holding my breath.

WEL

My only experience with a Prazi lathe was bad. We had one at work that
was a real piece of junk. For example;

- Only way to move the carrage was to turn the lead screw with a litle
wheel when it was disconnected from the gear train. The lead screw was
a fine pitch so it took forever

- The TEFC motor was positioned such that all of the chips were sucked
into the cooling fan and blown onto the gear train.

- The gears were phenolic and with the constant cloud of chips, they
quickly wore out and could not be replaced

- Everything was so weak and cheaply made that anyting more than the
lightest cut would chatter.

That was about 13 years ago. No wonder that the origional company went
under

Bob

lubarsky wrote:
... I have had for maybe twenty years,
and I really, really don't like it. ...

I gotta' admire your endurance!

I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what

In that price range you sould be able to find a prestine well tooled
lathe. I recommend you hook up with a machinery dealer and tell them
what you want. I have bought several macnines from Dick Tremestra(sp)
in Detroit and he will find what I want and delivery it to Chicago.
I might pay a little more, but I get GOOD stuff.

chuck

lubarsky wrote:


My short list of lathes is quite short: The Prazi II Apollo D2400DLX and the
Prazi II Apollo D6000, both equipped with 2 axis DRO's.
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
are "hobby lathes".

Are the machines good, bad, indifferent?
What might be better options?


I think a new Myford lathe might be a better option.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

get the EE, you will never ever regret it. Get a WWll or almost new one
though, motor generator is much more reliable than tubes. course, 400
bucks buys a nice inverter these days. Try Bob at Rison's in plaistow nh
he's honest and will rig it for you. I bought my EE from the guy in
oxford ma who advertises in the wantadvertiser. Guy by the name of
Unkaulf[sp] in franklin was also an decent guy, also in wantad, but twas
a while back.

there's nothing like a monarch to mow a huge chip and then hold a tenth
on the next pass. And they FEEL so good to use, something lost on so
many new machines.


lubarsky wrote:
My present lathe is a Jet 123 6P which I have had for maybe twenty years,
and I really, really don't like it. As a lathe it would make a good anchor
(I do exaggerate, but not much). My previous lathe was a nice 11" Logan
which I loved, flat belt and all, but sold over thirty years back when I was
told
that you couldn't get parts anymore. So I was a bit spoiled. Now I want some
precision.
I plan on making small parts, mostly under 2" diameter for an experimental
engine that has been growing in my basement for several years. I doubt that
I could do better than +/- .005 with the Jet so part-to-part variation would
be unacceptable then both variation and concentricity should be better than
+/- .0001.

My short list of lathes is quite short: The Prazi II Apollo D2400DLX and the
Prazi II Apollo D6000, both equipped with 2 axis DRO's.
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
are "hobby lathes".

Are the machines good, bad, indifferent?
What might be better options?

It would be great if I could find a used Hardinge HLV-H, or a Monarch EE in
that price neighborhood (or realistically a few thou. more) that was under
power
in either Connecticut or Massachusetts so I can check it out in use.
I was burned a few years back buying a Bridgeport CNC milling machine, and I
don't
want that sort of hassle again! I wouldn't turn up my nose a Levin or a
Schaublin, but
I'm not holding my breath.

WEL

I've seen (first hand) but not operated the Myford, no doubt lots of
fine work gets done on them, no doubt at all. But if it were me & my
money, I wouldn't get less than a 10" swing.

Abrasha said the following on 1/5/2005 11:15 AM:
lubarsky wrote:


My short list of lathes is quite short: The Prazi II Apollo D2400DLX
and the
Prazi II Apollo D6000, both equipped with 2 axis DRO's.
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
are "hobby lathes".

Are the machines good, bad, indifferent?
What might be better options?


I think a new Myford lathe might be a better option.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"imachine" [machinery values in NY] has a EE with a readout on ebay for
9k, they are routinely overpriced and I never see them sell anythink on
ebay, but you could drive there and hand them 7k . If the ways are flat,
it is a good machine.

yourname wrote:
get the EE, you will never ever regret it. Get a WWll or almost new one
though, motor generator is much more reliable than tubes. course, 400
bucks buys a nice inverter these days. Try Bob at Rison's in plaistow nh
he's honest and will rig it for you. I bought my EE from the guy in
oxford ma who advertises in the wantadvertiser. Guy by the name of
Unkaulf[sp] in franklin was also an decent guy, also in wantad, but twas
a while back.

there's nothing like a monarch to mow a huge chip and then hold a tenth
on the next pass. And they FEEL so good to use, something lost on so
many new machines.


lubarsky wrote:

My present lathe is a Jet 123 6P which I have had for maybe twenty years,
and I really, really don't like it. As a lathe it would make a good
anchor
(I do exaggerate, but not much). My previous lathe was a nice 11" Logan
which I loved, flat belt and all, but sold over thirty years back when
I was told
that you couldn't get parts anymore. So I was a bit spoiled. Now I
want some
precision.
I plan on making small parts, mostly under 2" diameter for an
experimental
engine that has been growing in my basement for several years. I doubt
that
I could do better than +/- .005 with the Jet so part-to-part variation
would
be unacceptable then both variation and concentricity should be better
than
+/- .0001.

My short list of lathes is quite short: The Prazi II Apollo D2400DLX
and the
Prazi II Apollo D6000, both equipped with 2 axis DRO's.
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
are "hobby lathes".

Are the machines good, bad, indifferent?
What might be better options?

It would be great if I could find a used Hardinge HLV-H, or a Monarch
EE in
that price neighborhood (or realistically a few thou. more) that was
under power
in either Connecticut or Massachusetts so I can check it out in use.
I was burned a few years back buying a Bridgeport CNC milling machine,
and I don't
want that sort of hassle again! I wouldn't turn up my nose a Levin or
a Schaublin, but
I'm not holding my breath.

WEL

and it has a freq drive

yourname wrote:
"imachine" [machinery values in NY] has a EE with a readout on ebay for
9k, they are routinely overpriced and I never see them sell anythink on
ebay, but you could drive there and hand them 7k . If the ways are flat,
it is a good machine.

yourname wrote:

get the EE, you will never ever regret it. Get a WWll or almost new
one though, motor generator is much more reliable than tubes. course,
400 bucks buys a nice inverter these days. Try Bob at Rison's in
plaistow nh he's honest and will rig it for you. I bought my EE from
the guy in oxford ma who advertises in the wantadvertiser. Guy by the
name of Unkaulf[sp] in franklin was also an decent guy, also in
wantad, but twas a while back.

there's nothing like a monarch to mow a huge chip and then hold a
tenth on the next pass. And they FEEL so good to use, something lost
on so many new machines.


lubarsky wrote:

My present lathe is a Jet 123 6P which I have had for maybe twenty
years,
and I really, really don't like it. As a lathe it would make a good
anchor
(I do exaggerate, but not much). My previous lathe was a nice 11" Logan
which I loved, flat belt and all, but sold over thirty years back
when I was told
that you couldn't get parts anymore. So I was a bit spoiled. Now I
want some
precision.
I plan on making small parts, mostly under 2" diameter for an
experimental
engine that has been growing in my basement for several years. I
doubt that
I could do better than +/- .005 with the Jet so part-to-part
variation would
be unacceptable then both variation and concentricity should be
better than
+/- .0001.

My short list of lathes is quite short: The Prazi II Apollo D2400DLX
and the
Prazi II Apollo D6000, both equipped with 2 axis DRO's.
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
are "hobby lathes".

Are the machines good, bad, indifferent?
What might be better options?

It would be great if I could find a used Hardinge HLV-H, or a Monarch
EE in
that price neighborhood (or realistically a few thou. more) that was
under power
in either Connecticut or Massachusetts so I can check it out in use.
I was burned a few years back buying a Bridgeport CNC milling
machine, and I don't
want that sort of hassle again! I wouldn't turn up my nose a Levin or
a Schaublin, but
I'm not holding my breath.

WEL

I think a new Myford lathe might be a better option.

I own a old myford super 7. Its a nice machine, but the price of a new
one is just plain outragous (last time I looked).

There is lots of old american iron out there that is still in good
condition, is more capable and cheaper. I bought a prestine rockwell
11x24 very well tooled for less than 1/2 the cost of a new myford, delivered!

chuck

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
lubarsky wrote:
... I have had for maybe twenty years,
and I really, really don't like it. ...

I gotta' admire your endurance!

1. I couldn't send it back once I got it uncrated!
2. Maybe I could do some of the things I wanted to do, hobby stuff.
3. I couldn't send it back once I got it uncrated!
4. I couldn't sell it to anyone else and still sleep at night.
5. I couldn't send it back once I got it uncrated!
6. I didn't have a boat, so I didn't need an anchor.

If the gradations on the dials were even of the same spacing maybe I could
work
with the backlash, but all in all not a satisfactory solution. I put maybe
10 Hrs. on it
and did a few nice things, but nothing that requires parts to fit together.

WEL

"Charles A. Sherwood" wrote in message
...
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what

In that price range you sould be able to find a prestine well tooled
lathe. I recommend you hook up with a machinery dealer and tell them
what you want. I have bought several macnines from Dick Tremestra(sp)
in Detroit and he will find what I want and delivery it to Chicago.
I might pay a little more, but I get GOOD stuff.

chuck

After having spent a few years trying (and still trying) to get my
Bridgeport
up and running I don't want a machine I haven't tried first. I want to run
that
ol' dial indicator up and down and kick the tires. Detroit is a wee bit too
far
from Ct for an inspection trip.

WEL

"yourname" wrote in message
...
get the EE, you will never ever regret it. Get a WWll or almost new one
though, motor generator is much more reliable than tubes. course, 400
bucks buys a nice inverter these days. Try Bob at Rison's in plaistow nh
he's honest and will rig it for you. I bought my EE from the guy in oxford
ma who advertises in the wantadvertiser. Guy by the name of Unkaulf[sp] in
franklin was also an decent guy, also in wantad, but twas a while back.

there's nothing like a monarch to mow a huge chip and then hold a tenth on
the next pass. And they FEEL so good to use, something lost on so many new
machines.

I know what you mean by feel. My old Logan had it.

WEL

You live in CT?? Drop me an email I can get you a good deal on a good lathe.
"lubarsky" wrote in message
om...

"Charles A. Sherwood" wrote in message
...
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what

In that price range you sould be able to find a prestine well tooled
lathe. I recommend you hook up with a machinery dealer and tell them
what you want. I have bought several macnines from Dick Tremestra(sp)
in Detroit and he will find what I want and delivery it to Chicago.
I might pay a little more, but I get GOOD stuff.

chuck

After having spent a few years trying (and still trying) to get my
Bridgeport
up and running I don't want a machine I haven't tried first. I want to run
that
ol' dial indicator up and down and kick the tires. Detroit is a wee bit
too far
from Ct for an inspection trip.

WEL

lubarsky wrote:
My present lathe is a Jet 123 6P which I have had for maybe twenty
years,
and I really, really don't like it. As a lathe it would make a good
anchor
(I do exaggerate, but not much). My previous lathe was a nice 11"
Logan
which I loved, flat belt and all, but sold over thirty years back
when I was
told
that you couldn't get parts anymore. So I was a bit spoiled. Now I
want some
precision.
I plan on making small parts, mostly under 2" diameter for an
experimental
engine that has been growing in my basement for several years. I
doubt that
I could do better than +/- .005 with the Jet so part-to-part
variation would
be unacceptable then both variation and concentricity should be
better than
+/- .0001.

My short list of lathes is quite short: The Prazi II Apollo D2400DLX
and the
Prazi II Apollo D6000, both equipped with 2 axis DRO's.
I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
are "hobby lathes".

Are the machines good, bad, indifferent?
What might be better options?

It would be great if I could find a used Hardinge HLV-H, or a Monarch
EE in
that price neighborhood (or realistically a few thou. more) that was
under
power
in either Connecticut or Massachusetts so I can check it out in use.
I was burned a few years back buying a Bridgeport CNC milling
machine, and I
don't
want that sort of hassle again! I wouldn't turn up my nose a Levin or
a
Schaublin, but
I'm not holding my breath.

WEL

I can offer you a much better alternative than a Prazi, here in
Massachussetts. I have a friend who has a Boley 5LZ 10" lathe --
hardly used, and in very good condition -- built for watchmaking
precision (tenths). It will swing 10" over the bed and 8" over the
saddle. The original 3-phase motor has been replaced with a 1 1/2 HP
230 volt DC motor, with variable-speed controller and tachometer and an
electronic brake. It is metric, but it has change gears for both
metric and imperial (inch). The massive leadscrew is deeply buried and
very well-protected and it has a QC gearbox for carriage feeds. It
comes with 3- and 4-jaw chucks, a collet set and a fixed and
travelling steady rests and turret stops for the X- and Y-axes, and a
manual. He wants $5000 for it, but might be persuaded to offer you a
deal. Could not be duplicated for five times that price.

Send me an e-mail if you are interested and I will put you in touch
with him.



Max ben-Aaron

what kind of cnc?

shouldn't be that bad[famous last words]

lubarsky wrote:
"Charles A. Sherwood" wrote in message
...

I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what

In that price range you sould be able to find a prestine well tooled
lathe. I recommend you hook up with a machinery dealer and tell them
what you want. I have bought several macnines from Dick Tremestra(sp)
in Detroit and he will find what I want and delivery it to Chicago.
I might pay a little more, but I get GOOD stuff.

chuck


After having spent a few years trying (and still trying) to get my
Bridgeport
up and running I don't want a machine I haven't tried first. I want to run
that
ol' dial indicator up and down and kick the tires. Detroit is a wee bit too
far
from Ct for an inspection trip.

WEL

looked it up, v2xt eh, have you called vic sells as bptpartsrus on ebay.
doesn't give anything away, but has a bunch of stuff

lubarsky wrote:
"Charles A. Sherwood" wrote in message
...

I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
bptpartsrus
In that price range you sould be able to find a prestine well tooled
lathe. I recommend you hook up with a machinery dealer and tell them
what you want. I have bought several macnines from Dick Tremestra(sp)
in Detroit and he will find what I want and delivery it to Chicago.
I might pay a little more, but I get GOOD stuff.

chuck


After having spent a few years trying (and still trying) to get my
Bridgeport
up and running I don't want a machine I haven't tried first. I want to run
that
ol' dial indicator up and down and kick the tires. Detroit is a wee bit too
far
from Ct for an inspection trip.

WEL

looked it up, v2xt eh, have you called vic sells as bptpartsrus on ebay.
doesn't give anything away, but has a bunch of stuff

lubarsky wrote:
"Charles A. Sherwood" wrote in message
...

I am looking at price range here of approx.$5400 to $7400 for what
bptpartsrus
In that price range you sould be able to find a prestine well tooled
lathe. I recommend you hook up with a machinery dealer and tell them
what you want. I have bought several macnines from Dick Tremestra(sp)
in Detroit and he will find what I want and delivery it to Chicago.
I might pay a little more, but I get GOOD stuff.

chuck


After having spent a few years trying (and still trying) to get my
Bridgeport
up and running I don't want a machine I haven't tried first. I want to run
that
ol' dial indicator up and down and kick the tires. Detroit is a wee bit too
far
from Ct for an inspection trip.

WEL

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 10:15:59 GMT, "lubarsky"
wrote:

My previous lathe was a nice 11" Logan
which I loved, flat belt and all, but sold over thirty years back when I was
told
that you couldn't get parts anymore. So I was a bit spoiled. Now I want some
precision.

I trust by now you realize that such parts ARE available, and in fact
always have been.

Just in case you come across another in your search.


--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Scott Logan - ssl "at" lathe.com |
| Logan Actuator Co. http://www.lathe.com |
| Harvard, IL |
|++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|
| Parts and Accessories for Logan Lathes and |
| Montgomery Wards Lathes |
| Logan-Lilly Mine Hoist Safety Controllers |
+--------------------------------------------+
"Measure Twice, Cut Once"

RCM FAQ - http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal
Metal Web News - http://www.metalwebnews.com/
Help squash SPAM: http://www.cauce.org/

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:37:02 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:


It would be great if I could find a used Hardinge HLV-H, or a Monarch EE in
that price neighborhood (or realistically a few thou. more) that was under
power
in either Connecticut or Massachusetts so I can check it out in use.

Don't overlook the Taiwanese HLV-H clones. I have the Feeler version and
like it a lot. (I also have an EE, but only use it perhaps 20% of the
time.) Another clone is made by Victor, MSC sells one badged Vectrax,
and I've also seen Wilton and Ganesh. I have no personal experience with
any of these. Your budget should cover a used one in very good shape
with tooling.

I do think you're being unrealistic expecting to hold a tenth with any
conventional lathe, even a brand new HLV-H.

Ned Simmons

A HLV-H will hold tenths easily, assuming the operator knows how.
And thats the rub. When you add that 4th digit..things get a hell of
a lot more complex.

Gunner

"Gunner, you are the same ridiculous liberal f--k you ever where."
Scipio

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:37:02 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:


It would be great if I could find a used Hardinge HLV-H, or a Monarch EE in
that price neighborhood (or realistically a few thou. more) that was under
power
in either Connecticut or Massachusetts so I can check it out in use.

Don't overlook the Taiwanese HLV-H clones. I have the Feeler version and
like it a lot. (I also have an EE, but only use it perhaps 20% of the
time.) Another clone is made by Victor, MSC sells one badged Vectrax,
and I've also seen Wilton and Ganesh. I have no personal experience with
any of these. Your budget should cover a used one in very good shape
with tooling.

I do think you're being unrealistic expecting to hold a tenth with any
conventional lathe, even a brand new HLV-H.

Ned Simmons

A HLV-H will hold tenths easily, assuming the operator knows how.
And thats the rub. When you add that 4th digit..things get a hell of
a lot more complex.


A few tenths, sure, even I can do that on good day without fussing. But
the OP asked for one tenth from the lathe, and I don't think that's
going happen without some intervention from the operator beyond cranking
in a number. But maybe that's what you mean by "more complex".

What I'm getting at is that last digit is up to the operator, and in my
experience there's any enormous difference between +/-.0003 and
+/-.0001, even with the finest machine. Keep in mind that the difference
between the peaks and valleys of even a very fine lathe finish will not
be too far from .0001 on the diameter.

Ned Simmons

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:04:07 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:37:02 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:


It would be great if I could find a used Hardinge HLV-H, or a Monarch EE in
that price neighborhood (or realistically a few thou. more) that was under
power
in either Connecticut or Massachusetts so I can check it out in use.

Don't overlook the Taiwanese HLV-H clones. I have the Feeler version and
like it a lot. (I also have an EE, but only use it perhaps 20% of the
time.) Another clone is made by Victor, MSC sells one badged Vectrax,
and I've also seen Wilton and Ganesh. I have no personal experience with
any of these. Your budget should cover a used one in very good shape
with tooling.

I do think you're being unrealistic expecting to hold a tenth with any
conventional lathe, even a brand new HLV-H.

Ned Simmons

A HLV-H will hold tenths easily, assuming the operator knows how.
And thats the rub. When you add that 4th digit..things get a hell of
a lot more complex.


A few tenths, sure, even I can do that on good day without fussing. But
the OP asked for one tenth from the lathe, and I don't think that's
going happen without some intervention from the operator beyond cranking
in a number. But maybe that's what you mean by "more complex".

Yes, thats what I was refering to.

What I'm getting at is that last digit is up to the operator, and in my
experience there's any enormous difference between +/-.0003 and
+/-.0001, even with the finest machine. Keep in mind that the difference
between the peaks and valleys of even a very fine lathe finish will not
be too far from .0001 on the diameter.

Ned Simmons

CNC machines and their setup guys and operators have to work hard at
getting below the .0002 tenths level, unless you spend horrendous
amounts of money on huge heavy hardware. And frankly..in most cases
there is little need for anything below .001-.0005 that even the pros
have to deal with. In fact, IMHO..we live in a small thous world for
the most part.

On manual machines, even a fresh HLV-H, while the machine is
capable..its the operator who has to know how to utilize the tools,
the machine and the material to get down there.

Gunner

"Gunner, you are the same ridiculous liberal f--k you ever where."
Scipio

In article , Gunner says...

A HLV-H will hold tenths easily, assuming the operator knows how.
And thats the rub. When you add that 4th digit..things get a hell of
a lot more complex.

And then the *other* question rears its ugly head.

Exactly what kind of gaging and inspection equipment
does he have to resolve 0.0001 inch size variations?
This means measureing gear that does 50 millionths
or so.

Temperature controlled room?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article ,
says...


CNC machines and their setup guys and operators have to work hard at
getting below the .0002 tenths level, unless you spend horrendous
amounts of money on huge heavy hardware. And frankly..in most cases
there is little need for anything below .001-.0005 that even the pros
have to deal with. In fact, IMHO..we live in a small thous world for
the most part.

Yes, but the first exception that occurs to me is bearing seats, where a
few tenths is often too much. I can usually do a passable job on the
lathe in a pinch (and a little Loctite 609 can work wonders g), but if
it really matters the work goes out for cylindrical grinding.


On manual machines, even a fresh HLV-H, while the machine is
capable..its the operator who has to know how to utilize the tools,
the machine and the material to get down there.


And then we have to figure out where 'there' is. Anyone who can get
readings repeatable to .0001 on a part still mounted in the lathe is a
much better man than me.

Ned Simmons

On 6 Jan 2005 07:35:10 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

A HLV-H will hold tenths easily, assuming the operator knows how.
And thats the rub. When you add that 4th digit..things get a hell of
a lot more complex.

And then the *other* question rears its ugly head.

Exactly what kind of gaging and inspection equipment
does he have to resolve 0.0001 inch size variations?
This means measureing gear that does 50 millionths
or so.

Temperature controlled room?

Jim

Of course! 68F at 30% humidity if I recall, is the requirement. I
believe that to measure accurately, your metrology equipment must be
what...10x as accurate as the part you are measuring?
Something like that. (cringing and waiting for the flames)

Gunner

"Gunner, you are the same ridiculous liberal f--k you ever where."
Scipio

you guy's are way overthinking this

a jet or pos lathe can't hold a tenth with anyone's intervention because
it will be tapered, oor, poor finish etc.

A monarch has divisions big enough i can split a thou in four, the hlv
christ, doesn't that have a vernier right on it?

No machine with an acme thread can just dial to a number, there is
always operator intervention. The ability to intervene is the point.

I own a starrett 50 millionths mic and never liked it.

after 20 years in the business, I can , with my zen in line andmy really
good groove on, get my mics to repeat measure sub .0001, which gives me
repeatability, the cal on my mics and environmental factors will give me
accuracy.

hell on a good day I can spot a drill to 5 thou by eye, can't you?

I think the guy just wants a machien that is better than he is, which is
what we all want, right? The Jet is not that machine.




Ned Simmons wrote:
In article ,
says...


CNC machines and their setup guys and operators have to work hard at
getting below the .0002 tenths level, unless you spend horrendous
amounts of money on huge heavy hardware. And frankly..in most cases
there is little need for anything below .001-.0005 that even the pros
have to deal with. In fact, IMHO..we live in a small thous world for
the most part.


Yes, but the first exception that occurs to me is bearing seats, where a
few tenths is often too much. I can usually do a passable job on the
lathe in a pinch (and a little Loctite 609 can work wonders g), but if
it really matters the work goes out for cylindrical grinding.


On manual machines, even a fresh HLV-H, while the machine is
capable..its the operator who has to know how to utilize the tools,
the machine and the material to get down there.



And then we have to figure out where 'there' is. Anyone who can get
readings repeatable to .0001 on a part still mounted in the lathe is a
much better man than me.

Ned Simmons

In article ,
says...
you guy's are way overthinking this

a jet or pos lathe can't hold a tenth with anyone's intervention because
it will be tapered, oor, poor finish etc.

Yes.

A monarch has divisions big enough i can split a thou in four, the hlv
christ, doesn't that have a vernier right on it?

Not on an HLV-H, chuckers perhaps?

No machine with an acme thread can just dial to a number, there is
always operator intervention. The ability to intervene is the point.

Yes.

I own a starrett 50 millionths mic and never liked it.

after 20 years in the business, I can , with my zen in line andmy really
good groove on, get my mics to repeat measure sub .0001, which gives me
repeatability, the cal on my mics and environmental factors will give me
accuracy.

Yes.

hell on a good day I can spot a drill to 5 thou by eye, can't you?

Yes.

I think the guy just wants a machien that is better than he is, which is
what we all want, right? The Jet is not that machine.

Yes.

Geeze, I was itchin' for a fight, and all you did was agree
with most of what was said. What happened?

Ned Simmons

Yes.

Geeze, I was itchin' for a fight, and all you did was agree
with most of what was said. What happened?


Ned Simmons


You're slipping

[you asshole]

happy now?

In article , yourname says...

No machine with an acme thread can just dial to a number, there is
always operator intervention. The ability to intervene is the point.

Moore jig borer? Of course that still requires somebody to
dial the dial.

I think the guy just wants a machine that is better than he is, which is
what we all want, right? The Jet is not that machine.

Nope, he used a number, he said he wanted to make parts with
+/- 0.0001 tolerances. Unless he a) doesn't know what he's
asking for, or b) made a typo, that does put him a whole
'nother realm for machines. IF that's what he really wants,
and IF he has the ability to inspect the stuff he makes,
to verify that it meets that exacting tolerance.

Like you say, the jet just isn't going to get where he wants to go.
g

I tend to think you're right of course. He doesn't know what
he's really asking for when he says "one tenth." And that
he just wants a machine that's better than he is.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article ,
says...


You're slipping

[you asshole]

happy now?

Yes, I consider myself a happy and optimistic sort. Thanks
for asking. And you?

Ned Simmons

just ducky!



good to see someone around here has a sense of humor.........
Ned Simmons wrote:
In article ,
says...


You're slipping

[you asshole]

happy now?


Yes, I consider myself a happy and optimistic sort. Thanks
for asking. And you?

Ned Simmons

"
I think the guy just wants a machien that is better than he is, which is
what we all want, right? The Jet is not that machine.


I wish I had originally stated the requirements that way.
I just don't want the machine to be the limiting factor.
A good lathe won't make a great machinist out of me (that would
take an act of God), but at least It won't add to my problems.

WEL

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , yourname says...

No machine with an acme thread can just dial to a number, there is
always operator intervention. The ability to intervene is the point.

Moore jig borer? Of course that still requires somebody to
dial the dial.

I think the guy just wants a machine that is better than he is, which is
what we all want, right? The Jet is not that machine.

Nope, he used a number, he said he wanted to make parts with
+/- 0.0001 tolerances. Unless he a) doesn't know what he's
asking for, or b) made a typo, that does put him a whole
'nother realm for machines. IF that's what he really wants,
and IF he has the ability to inspect the stuff he makes,
to verify that it meets that exacting tolerance.

Actually it was a typo.
Off by an order of magnitude.

WEL

Actually it was a typo.
Off by an order of magnitude.

WEL




Most understand what you meant more or less. Truth is, one ofthese days,
you will be looking at a part on your nice new lathe and saying, 'i
really need to take a tenth off of that. And you'll do it. And you'll
smile. Then you will panic, hoping you won't **** the rest of the part
up, cause you can't do it again.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 00:16:40 GMT, yourname wrote:



Actually it was a typo.
Off by an order of magnitude.

WEL




Most understand what you meant more or less. Truth is, one ofthese days,
you will be looking at a part on your nice new lathe and saying, 'i
really need to take a tenth off of that. And you'll do it. And you'll
smile. Then you will panic, hoping you won't **** the rest of the part
up, cause you can't do it again.

Oh yes...indeed....Roflmao! been there, screwed it up.
Now I make two if I need something critical

Gunner

"Gunner, you are the same ridiculous liberal f--k you ever where."
Scipio

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Gunner says...

A HLV-H will hold tenths easily, assuming the operator knows how.
And thats the rub. When you add that 4th digit..things get a hell of
a lot more complex.

And then the *other* question rears its ugly head.

Exactly what kind of gaging and inspection equipment
does he have to resolve 0.0001 inch size variations?
This means measureing gear that does 50 millionths
or so.

Temperature controlled room?


A Temperature controlled room simplifies things but it is not an absolute
requirement. There are very few machines that can actually hold .0001" in a
production environment. Then there are other requirements to think about,
such as roundness when you're talking about a lathe. For a cylindrical part
with a .0001" total tolerance, say a valve spool, the process may look
something like this:
Turn blank
Green grind
Heat treat
Grind
Lap

There are lathes that can hold a tenth. Usually in softer materials. The
machines are temperature controlled, have very high precision spindles and
glass scales. Here is a link to one that I have worked with:
http://www.remsales.com/uploads/C220.pdf
This machine has .01 micron resolution (.000000394") or .4 millionths of an
inch. Running in inch mode gives you 1 millionth resolution input wise. This
machine is a high precision variation of one used to turn VTR drum heads. If
you have a VCR, camcorder, or other VTR, take a look at the head. The head
is turned aluminum, not polished. The spindle in this machine is around five
times more precise than the one used to turn VTR heads. I've stood in front
of one of these with a part chucked in a six jaw chuck spinning at 12,000
rpm. We've got a new one that goes 15,000 rpm.
http://www.remsales.com/machines/pag...gang_tool.html

A flat part that needs to be held to .0001" would usually be ground and
lapped. There are some double disk grinders that can hold a tenth, but it's
doubtful if they would be capable to six sigma in production.

Measuring to a tenth requires a gage that's capable of ten millionths
resolution and repeatability. For length you would use something like this:
http://www.heidenhain.com/gauges/index.html

For round parts you would use a similar electronic indicator in a snap gage,
or you would use an air gage.
In any case you would take comparative measurements against gage blocks (AA
grade or better). Precision measurements are not taken with a micrometer.
Even the best ones are not nearly accurate enough.

Dan

In article , Dan says...


Temperature controlled room?


A Temperature controlled room simplifies things but it is not an absolute
requirement.

I would think it would be hard to gage below that level
unless one knew what the temperature were, and that all
the gaging equipment were equilibrated at that temperature.

To me that implies requirement, not nicety.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

The requirements we followed for a XXX gage were that it had to be in
the lab for 24 hours before calibration, and the temperature had to be
within plus or minus 1/2 degree C. I'd wait until I had enough to
make it worth while, then the doors were locked until they were done,
usually all day. From the time I got there in the morning until noon,
the door wasn't opened, and again until I left, or was done with that
batch of gages. That just barely reduced the uncertainty and known
error of the machines to acceptable for the smaller gages. It's also
the only time I used the Grand Master blocks to directly do a
calibration.

On 8 Jan 2005 23:06:39 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Dan says...


Temperature controlled room?


A Temperature controlled room simplifies things but it is not an absolute
requirement.

I would think it would be hard to gage below that level
unless one knew what the temperature were, and that all
the gaging equipment were equilibrated at that temperature.

To me that implies requirement, not nicety.

Jim

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Dan says...


Temperature controlled room?


A Temperature controlled room simplifies things but it is not an absolute
requirement.

I would think it would be hard to gage below that level
unless one knew what the temperature were, and that all
the gaging equipment were equilibrated at that temperature.

To me that implies requirement, not nicety.


Knowing the temperature and controlling it are two different things.
Johannson made very accurate gage blocks before the advent of air
conditioning. Often it's not practical to have tight temperature control in
a large shop. Then the other point is that we were talking about measuring
the parts, not calibrating the measuring devices. Certainly the gage lab
should be temperature controlled.

Dan