Slashdot had a link to this site:

http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/the_s...are_quest.html

WTF?

Hehehe.....Selectrics do the TH in superscript (if you have the right
ball) which foils at least half their premise. Can't remember exactly
but I seem to remember the better models did have variable spacing
(kerning) of the text (my memory only, not guaranteed). I believe that
was one of the selling points to pay the big bucks for a selectric
rather than the other brand.

And...the premise that one could print out in MS word and the size match
would be exact is laughable. That thing has been copied so many times
that one could only match relative sizes, not overall size....anyone who
has been re-faxed their own fax knows the size changes and there are
distortions with each scan and reproduction.

Not saying whether they are fakes or not (didn't see the article) but
the arguments used in this website are preaching to the chior...only
believable if you really want to believe anyway.

We'll never really know as Mr Bush's records from the military seem to
have mostly disappeared to the same black hole as his Texas driving
records and (alleged) convictions and arrests.

Koz

Jim Stewart wrote:

Slashdot had a link to this site:

http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/the_s...are_quest.html

WTF?

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:28:51 -0700, Koz
wrote:

Hehehe.....Selectrics do the TH in superscript (if you have the right
ball) which foils at least half their premise. Can't remember exactly
but I seem to remember the better models did have variable spacing
(kerning) of the text (my memory only, not guaranteed). I believe that
was one of the selling points to pay the big bucks for a selectric
rather than the other brand.

1. Were Selectrics common in military offices at that time?
2. Are there any other documents from that same office at the same
time to compare?

I believe at this time..the answer to both, is no.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:28:51 -0700, Koz
wrote:

Hehehe.....Selectrics do the TH in superscript (if you have the right
ball) which foils at least half their premise. Can't remember exactly
but I seem to remember the better models did have variable spacing
(kerning) of the text (my memory only, not guaranteed). I believe that
was one of the selling points to pay the big bucks for a selectric
rather than the other brand.

1. Were Selectrics common in military offices at that time?

If they were the most expensive model availiable, probably.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

I would assume that the Texas Guard did. We had Selectrics all over the 48th
Aromored HQ here in the Georgia Guard back in '66 and the Texas Guard had a
lot more budget that we did.

We only had Royal electrics at my office so whenever I needed to type up a
really nice letter I would run down to the Guard Hq and use one of their
Selectrics. I used a Times Roman ball too. Got yelled at by the Sgt once
for not changing back to the san sertif ball he used for his reports.


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:28:51 -0700, Koz
wrote:

Hehehe.....Selectrics do the TH in superscript (if you have the right
ball) which foils at least half their premise. Can't remember exactly
but I seem to remember the better models did have variable spacing
(kerning) of the text (my memory only, not guaranteed). I believe that
was one of the selling points to pay the big bucks for a selectric
rather than the other brand.

1. Were Selectrics common in military offices at that time?
2. Are there any other documents from that same office at the same
time to compare?

I believe at this time..the answer to both, is no.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

First, The culture of the memo is 20 years too late. If it had been
written at all, it would have been a "Memorandum for Record", not a
CYA letter and although CYA was a concept, and was occasionally spoken
of, it would not have been used as a title on official correspondence.
Who ever wrote this learned it from TV shows. Second, who was this
LT Bush, in 1973, that a Col and General Officer would give a rats ass
what happened to him over something this minor. The First Sergeant
might give him a piece of his mind, a Company Commander might get
involved, possibly the S1 might report in a staff meeting to the
Squadron Commander that X number of pilots hadn't got their pysicals
yet. In 1973 the military was under Congressional mandate to
downsize. There was a surplus of Officers. This just doesn't ring
true by any test. Third, there were only a couple of fonts allowed in
military correspondence, no matter what was out there, and none of
them had non standard characters. Compliance with the rules of
correspondence was a BIG DEAL, everybody froms the clerks on up
enforced it. You couldn't type something at home on your wife's
portable and put it into the system, you had to have it retyped on an
officially recognized font, spacing, and so forth.
Paul

Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:28:51 -0700, Koz
wrote:


Hehehe.....Selectrics do the TH in superscript (if you have the right
ball) which foils at least half their premise. Can't remember exactly
but I seem to remember the better models did have variable spacing
(kerning) of the text (my memory only, not guaranteed). I believe that
was one of the selling points to pay the big bucks for a selectric
rather than the other brand.


1. Were Selectrics common in military offices at that time?
2. Are there any other documents from that same office at the same
time to compare?

I believe at this time..the answer to both, is no.

Gunner

Wrong on both counts, Gunner.

See other posts as to commonality of Selectrics in military offices.
See other documents, previously released by the Bush administration, for
superscript TH usage. So the TANG had a typewriter with a ball that had
that superscript character.

As to proportional spacing; the freepers argue that machines of the era
were incapable of kerning. True, in a strict sense, but the memo shows
no indication of true kerning. Proportional spacing was easy with old
Selectrics, though. Mine has a lever to the left of the roller with
four positions; 10, 12, PSN, and PS. I can use proportional spacing
with any ball, but it looks better if the ball is marked PS. The
letters center better in their proportional spaces. The freepers now
admit that the memo in question has simple proportional spacing, and
that earlier, officially released documents show use of the superscript
TH, but argue that the earlier documents didn't have proportional
spacing. Big deal. Flip of a lever.

One thing my typewriter doesn't do perfectly is align the letters
horizontally. It's very difficult to make a ball with all the letters
in perfect register, so some are a little high, some a little low. All
mechanical typewriters I know of have this problem. Looking at an image
of the memo printed in today's newspaper, the letters don't line up
horizontally.

I think the document was produced by a typewriter similar to mine. Now
as to when that was done and by whom, you may carry that as far as you
feel comfortable. But I don't think the document itself offers
substantial evidence of forgery.

Anyway, Gunner, the answer to both your questions is "yes". I may have
anticipated some other questions. What do you believe now, and why?

Dale Scroggins

In article , Dale Scroggins says...

I think the document was produced by a typewriter similar to mine. Now
as to when that was done and by whom, you may carry that as far as you
feel comfortable. But I don't think the document itself offers
substantial evidence of forgery.

Oh well. Nice try, Karl Rove! Glad to see he's in
there pitching, trying his darndest to keep 'his man's'
feet clean. Some you win, some you lose.

Looks like a loser for Mr. Rove on this one.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

You obviously have absolutely no idea what the National Guard was like in
the'60s. Sure, when we had to send forms up the line or make out orders
they were typed to official specs but notes back and forth between officers
at Division HQ were typed with what ever was on the typewriter at the time.
It appears that these memos were not "official" correspondence but notes to
his immediate superior officer explaining is actions and as the note said,
"covering his ass".

"6e70" wrote in message
m...
First, The culture of the memo is 20 years too late. If it had been
written at all, it would have been a "Memorandum for Record", not a
CYA letter and although CYA was a concept, and was occasionally spoken
of, it would not have been used as a title on official correspondence.
Who ever wrote this learned it from TV shows. Second, who was this
LT Bush, in 1973, that a Col and General Officer would give a rats ass
what happened to him over something this minor. The First Sergeant
might give him a piece of his mind, a Company Commander might get
involved, possibly the S1 might report in a staff meeting to the
Squadron Commander that X number of pilots hadn't got their pysicals
yet. In 1973 the military was under Congressional mandate to
downsize. There was a surplus of Officers. This just doesn't ring
true by any test. Third, there were only a couple of fonts allowed in
military correspondence, no matter what was out there, and none of
them had non standard characters. Compliance with the rules of
correspondence was a BIG DEAL, everybody froms the clerks on up
enforced it. You couldn't type something at home on your wife's
portable and put it into the system, you had to have it retyped on an
officially recognized font, spacing, and so forth.
Paul

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Dale Scroggins
says...

I think the document was produced by a typewriter similar to mine. Now
as to when that was done and by whom, you may carry that as far as you
feel comfortable. But I don't think the document itself offers
substantial evidence of forgery.

Oh well. Nice try, Karl Rove! Glad to see he's in
there pitching, trying his darndest to keep 'his man's'
feet clean. Some you win, some you lose.

Looks like a loser for Mr. Rove on this one.

Jim

It doesn't really matter, all they have to do is muddy the waters and the
dittohead types, along with the great unwashed masses of Fox News viewers
will be satisfied that the documents have been totally debunked. The lazy
swing voters who can't read a newspaper to save their lives will consider
the whole matter too confusing to evaluate.

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:33:04 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


Anyway, Gunner, the answer to both your questions is "yes". I may have
anticipated some other questions. What do you believe now, and why?

Dale Scroggins

At this point, I shall take a wait and see stance.

Im still wondering why the daughter and wife of the gent in question
state categorically that those are frauds.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 01:19:07 GMT, "ATP"
wrote:


Oh well. Nice try, Karl Rove! Glad to see he's in
there pitching, trying his darndest to keep 'his man's'
feet clean. Some you win, some you lose.

Looks like a loser for Mr. Rove on this one.

Jim

It doesn't really matter, all they have to do is muddy the waters and the
dittohead types, along with the great unwashed masses of Fox News viewers
will be satisfied that the documents have been totally debunked. The lazy
swing voters who can't read a newspaper to save their lives will consider
the whole matter too confusing to evaluate.


It really doesn't matter. It could have been printed on the back of a
2003 calendar and the great unwashed masses on the Left, the Anyone
but Bush types would believe it from the first utterance.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

More likely to have the Cent mark and Dollar mark and daggers and crosses for sub notes.

My dad had to make a custom SCM unit - about 1/3 of the keys had a Greek letter or a
super case 2 and 3 and sub case 2 and 3 but not the ^th on a flip up key hammer.

In the university I worked in, the neutron gun lab that I "tech'ed" in used an IBM
selectric driven by a pdp-8 for data logging. Printers in those days were TTY's or
wet monsters and mainframe monsters. Then the digital selectric.

I think my spinterm printer - the one in the shop floor to scrap out - had a wheel
that had two letters in it - but circles for TM and R and C ; th is a bit handwriting mode.

Martin

Glenn Ashmore wrote:

I would assume that the Texas Guard did. We had Selectrics all over the 48th
Aromored HQ here in the Georgia Guard back in '66 and the Texas Guard had a
lot more budget that we did.

We only had Royal electrics at my office so whenever I needed to type up a
really nice letter I would run down to the Guard Hq and use one of their
Selectrics. I used a Times Roman ball too. Got yelled at by the Sgt once
for not changing back to the san sertif ball he used for his reports.


"Gunner" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:28:51 -0700, Koz
wrote:


Hehehe.....Selectrics do the TH in superscript (if you have the right
ball) which foils at least half their premise. Can't remember exactly
but I seem to remember the better models did have variable spacing
(kerning) of the text (my memory only, not guaranteed). I believe that
was one of the selling points to pay the big bucks for a selectric
rather than the other brand.

1. Were Selectrics common in military offices at that time?
2. Are there any other documents from that same office at the same
time to compare?

I believe at this time..the answer to both, is no.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke





--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Gunner wrote:

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:33:04 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


Anyway, Gunner, the answer to both your questions is "yes". I may have
anticipated some other questions. What do you believe now, and why?

Dale Scroggins


At this point, I shall take a wait and see stance.

Im still wondering why the daughter and wife of the gent in question
state categorically that those are frauds.

Gunner

I saw reports of statements by the widow and a son. Didn't see anything
about a daughter; widow and son said, as I recall, it was unfair to
pick out things the "gent" wrote thirty years ago and broadcast them
when he couldn't put his statements in context. Valid point, but
uncorrectable. After we die, things we wrote down are likely to be
taken at face value.

Widow avows he wasn't a typist. Didn't discuss likelihood of a clerk or
secretary.

Didn't see anything from either the widow or the son claiming direct
knowledge that the documents were forged. Just general sentiment.
Widow admits he left some other documents around, but she really hasn't
looked for them.

Dale Scroggins

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 02:59:20 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


They believe, however, that once he was "saved", he suddenly became
responsible, bright, and capable. Go figure.

Abe Lincoln was a failed lawyer and shopkeeper. He apparently rose to
the occasion.

Wasnt it Truman that was a failed habadasher? He apparently rose to
the occasion.

Clinton..well...lets not go there...chuckle

There are plenty of other examples in history of the "bad boy gone
good"


Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 04:23:20 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:33:04 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


Anyway, Gunner, the answer to both your questions is "yes". I may have
anticipated some other questions. What do you believe now, and why?

Dale Scroggins


At this point, I shall take a wait and see stance.

Im still wondering why the daughter and wife of the gent in question
state categorically that those are frauds.

Gunner

I saw reports of statements by the widow and a son. Didn't see anything
about a daughter; widow and son said, as I recall, it was unfair to
pick out things the "gent" wrote thirty years ago and broadcast them
when he couldn't put his statements in context. Valid point, but
uncorrectable. After we die, things we wrote down are likely to be
taken at face value.

Widow avows he wasn't a typist. Didn't discuss likelihood of a clerk or
secretary.

Didn't see anything from either the widow or the son claiming direct
knowledge that the documents were forged. Just general sentiment.
Widow admits he left some other documents around, but she really hasn't
looked for them.

Dale Scroggins

You are correct. I was thinking of another fellow who a number of
years ago swore under oath that Bush had crossed his Is and dotted his
t's, then recently said he had not. I was thinking of his daughter who
had posed the question and exposed him..

Name starts with a B..just recently..last week

Might also want to read this article currently running on
www.drudgereport.com

"Saturday, another retired Air National Guard officer came forward to
attack CBSNEWS credibility. Retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, who was
cited by a senior CBS official on Thursday as the network's "trump
card" in verifying the documents, said in an interview that he was
"misled" by CBS and believed the documents to be forgeries.

Hodges said that he was read only excerpts of the documents and never
saw the documents. A CBS spokesman said the network stands by its
report. "

And this one....G

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...shguard11.html

More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic

By Pete Slover
The Dallas Morning News

AUSTIN, Texas — The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure
to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air
National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was
written, his service record shows.
An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter
"Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972. CBS News
reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as
interfering with officers' negative evaluations of the future
president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents
that seem to suggest Bush sought special treatment as a pilot, failed
to carry out a superior's order to undergo a physical exam and was
suspended from flying for failing to meet Air National Guard
standards.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls
seeking comment. His discharge paper was among documents obtained by
The Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into
Bush's Guard record.

A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have
continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former
high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would
have left Staudt powerless.

Authenticity of the memo and three others included in Wednesday's "60
Minutes" report came in for heavy criticism yesterday, prompting an
unusual, on-air defense of the original work. Experts on typography
said the memos appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not
available at the time.

And the widow and son of the officer who supposedly wrote them, Lt.
Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984, have said it wasn't his nature
to keep detailed personal notes.

In its news broadcast yesterday, CBS said the documents were supported
by both unnamed witnesses and others, including document examiners.

CBS anchor Dan Rather earlier told The Dallas Morning News that he had
heard nothing to make him question the legitimacy of the memos. He
attributed the backlash to partisan politics and competitive
journalism.

"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant
Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said.
"Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not,
I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the
professional rumor mill."

The Washington Post quoted Rather as saying CBS had talked to two
people who worked with Killian — his superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby
Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong — and both
described the memos as consistent with what they knew of Killian.
Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the documents, is an avid
Bush supporter and "it took a lot for him to speak the truth," the
Post quoted Rather as saying.




The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he
believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS news executive
confirmed that Hodges had changed his story.

Rather's interview with The Morning News concluded before the
newspaper determined the date of Staudt's departure, but a CBS staffer
with extensive knowledge of the story said later that the departure
doesn't derail the story. "From what we've learned, Staudt remained
very active after he retired," the staffer said, speaking on condition
of anonymity. "He was a very bullying type, and that could have
continued."

In the "60 Minutes" report, Rather said of the memo's contents:
"Killian says Col. Buck Staudt, the man in charge of the Texas Air
National Guard, is putting on pressure to 'sugarcoat' an evaluation of
Lt. Bush."

Staudt was the person Bush initially contacted about Guard service,
and he was the group commander at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston
when Bush arrived there to fly an F-102 jet. He transferred later to
Austin, where he served as chief of staff for the Air National Guard.

In the disputed memo, Killian supposedly wrote "(another officer) gave
me a message today from group regarding Bush's (evaluation) and Staudt
is pushing to sugarcoat it."

It continues: "Austin is not happy either."

The CBS staffer said the memo appears to recognize that Staudt has
retired, since it differentiates between his displeasure and that of
Austin, where he served his final Guard stint.

But another Texas Air National Guard official who served in that
period said the memo appears to wrongly associate Staudt with his
group command in Houston, and — based on that mistake — the memo
distinguishes his views from that of the Austin Guard.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, director of Air National Guard operations
for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973, said Staudt "wasn't
on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis
makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He
couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you
don't have any authority."

Bush has not commented publicly about the CBS report, and aides say
his honorable discharge proves he fulfilled his obligations.


Copyright © 2004 The Seattle Times Company





"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

Gunner wrote:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 04:23:20 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


Gunner wrote:


On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:33:04 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:



Anyway, Gunner, the answer to both your questions is "yes". I may have
anticipated some other questions. What do you believe now, and why?

Dale Scroggins


At this point, I shall take a wait and see stance.

Im still wondering why the daughter and wife of the gent in question
state categorically that those are frauds.

Gunner


I saw reports of statements by the widow and a son. Didn't see anything
about a daughter; widow and son said, as I recall, it was unfair to
pick out things the "gent" wrote thirty years ago and broadcast them
when he couldn't put his statements in context. Valid point, but
uncorrectable. After we die, things we wrote down are likely to be
taken at face value.

Widow avows he wasn't a typist. Didn't discuss likelihood of a clerk or
secretary.

Didn't see anything from either the widow or the son claiming direct
knowledge that the documents were forged. Just general sentiment.
Widow admits he left some other documents around, but she really hasn't
looked for them.

Dale Scroggins


You are correct. I was thinking of another fellow who a number of
years ago swore under oath that Bush had crossed his Is and dotted his
t's, then recently said he had not. I was thinking of his daughter who
had posed the question and exposed him..

Name starts with a B..just recently..last week

Barnes. Speaker of the House in Texas. He claims he made the call that
put Dubya at the head of the line. A caller to a radio talk show on the
east coast claimed to be his daughter and called him a liar.

Might also want to read this article currently running on
www.drudgereport.com

"Saturday, another retired Air National Guard officer came forward to
attack CBSNEWS credibility. Retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, who was
cited by a senior CBS official on Thursday as the network's "trump
card" in verifying the documents, said in an interview that he was
"misled" by CBS and believed the documents to be forgeries.

Hodges said that he was read only excerpts of the documents and never
saw the documents. A CBS spokesman said the network stands by its
report. "

I dont't think Hodges was the lynchpin of the story. I think the
primary source was Killian's XO, or administrative officer. Strong, I
think. There's no doubt that Dubya's case was a divisive issue in the
command of TANG at the time. Apparently, it still is.

And this one....G

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...shguard11.html

More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic

By Pete Slover
The Dallas Morning News

AUSTIN, Texas — The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure
to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air
National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was
written, his service record shows.

Not a realistic viewpoint by the writer.

My introduction to metalworking came in the shop of a retired NG
officer. He was a P-51 pilot in WWII, came home, joined the Guard, and
retired as some sort of General. He had been retired for five years
when I first met him. He still knew lots of phone numbers of active
officers, and they listened to him. He didn't ask for favors often, but
he was never denied. He still received calls from active officers
seeking his help years after his retirement. Like in local politics,
one need not hold office to hold power. It's who you know and who owes you.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter
"Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972. CBS News
reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as
interfering with officers' negative evaluations of the future
president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents
that seem to suggest Bush sought special treatment as a pilot, failed
to carry out a superior's order to undergo a physical exam and was
suspended from flying for failing to meet Air National Guard
standards.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls
seeking comment. His discharge paper was among documents obtained by
The Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into
Bush's Guard record.

A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have
continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former
high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would
have left Staudt powerless.

Authenticity of the memo and three others included in Wednesday's "60
Minutes" report came in for heavy criticism yesterday, prompting an
unusual, on-air defense of the original work. Experts on typography
said the memos appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not
available at the time.

I think this part will change within the next week. If the story has legs.


And the widow and son of the officer who supposedly wrote them, Lt.
Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984, have said it wasn't his nature
to keep detailed personal notes.

In its news broadcast yesterday, CBS said the documents were supported
by both unnamed witnesses and others, including document examiners.

CBS anchor Dan Rather earlier told The Dallas Morning News that he had
heard nothing to make him question the legitimacy of the memos. He
attributed the backlash to partisan politics and competitive
journalism.

"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant
Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said.
"Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not,
I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the
professional rumor mill."

The Washington Post quoted Rather as saying CBS had talked to two
people who worked with Killian — his superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby
Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong — and both
described the memos as consistent with what they knew of Killian.
Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the documents, is an avid
Bush supporter and "it took a lot for him to speak the truth," the
Post quoted Rather as saying.




The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he
believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS news executive
confirmed that Hodges had changed his story.

Rather's interview with The Morning News concluded before the
newspaper determined the date of Staudt's departure, but a CBS staffer
with extensive knowledge of the story said later that the departure
doesn't derail the story. "From what we've learned, Staudt remained
very active after he retired," the staffer said, speaking on condition
of anonymity. "He was a very bullying type, and that could have
continued."

In the "60 Minutes" report, Rather said of the memo's contents:
"Killian says Col. Buck Staudt, the man in charge of the Texas Air
National Guard, is putting on pressure to 'sugarcoat' an evaluation of
Lt. Bush."

Staudt was the person Bush initially contacted about Guard service,
and he was the group commander at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston
when Bush arrived there to fly an F-102 jet. He transferred later to
Austin, where he served as chief of staff for the Air National Guard.

In the disputed memo, Killian supposedly wrote "(another officer) gave
me a message today from group regarding Bush's (evaluation) and Staudt
is pushing to sugarcoat it."

It continues: "Austin is not happy either."

The CBS staffer said the memo appears to recognize that Staudt has
retired, since it differentiates between his displeasure and that of
Austin, where he served his final Guard stint.

But another Texas Air National Guard official who served in that
period said the memo appears to wrongly associate Staudt with his
group command in Houston, and — based on that mistake — the memo
distinguishes his views from that of the Austin Guard.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, director of Air National Guard operations
for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973, said Staudt "wasn't
on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis
makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He
couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you
don't have any authority."

Maybe no authority, but influence can persist. See above.

Bush has not commented publicly about the CBS report, and aides say
his honorable discharge proves he fulfilled his obligations.


Copyright © 2004 The Seattle Times Company

Retired Guard generals definitely have a lot of clout long after they
retire. 10 years after he retired General Russell singlehanded got the 48th
Infantry to relocate its summer camp from Ft. McClellan to Ft. Stewart in
his home town .

In article , Dale Scroggins
says...

Looks like a loser for Mr. Rove on this one.

It doesn't really matter, all they have to do is muddy the waters and the
dittohead types, along with the great unwashed masses of Fox News viewers
will be satisfied that the documents have been totally debunked. The lazy
swing voters who can't read a newspaper to save their lives will consider
the whole matter too confusing to evaluate.

I'm not sure I understand why CBS is pursuing this matter.

Right - it may have something to do with integrity or
something. A totally foreign concept to Rove.

Jim


--
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==================================================

Glen, Who's talking about the 60's. In the 60's men were trying to
get into the guard in order to avoid active military service. (read
Vietnam) By 1973 most of the 60's era members had fulfilled their 6
years obligation and were gone. The culture of the National Guard had
changed completely by the 70's. By '73 the US Military was under
congressional mandate to downsize drastically and immediately. I was
on active duty at FT Lewis, WA in 1972 when the official word went out
"anybody want out of the Army see your First Sergeant". Officially
the Vietnam War ended in 1975, but the buildup of forces ended in
1972. In 1973 Officers were a dime a dozen and there were all kinds of
active duty aviators trying to get a guard slot. It was a pivotal
time, you had to be there to know it. Nothing like this had happened
since the end of WWII. Air Force Officers who had come to love the
service were being forced out. They were trying to get a NG slot in
order to keep an affilliation going, to provide some income during
transition to civilian life, and perhaps while at school on the GI
Bill. Any Officer who didn't want to fully participate in the NG
program at that time would have been allowed to fade away, which is,
in fact, what happened.
Paul

What has that got to do with the kind of typewriters we had or the way we
communicated within the Hq?

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:34:58 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


This fellow is a loser, Gunner. Not because he's a Republican or a
conservative. There are admirable people who are both. I'd vote for
any of them if they were running. But I can't vote for Dubya. I don't
want to be held responsible.

Dale Scroggins

Fair enough.

Your opinion is indeed noted.

And if things go well, Id expect you to not try to cash in on the
rising economy or even hint at sharing any credit.

If Kerry wins, and things turn to ****..I will indeed return to haunt
you with your own words.


Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On 12 Sep 2004 07:25:10 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Dale Scroggins
says...

Looks like a loser for Mr. Rove on this one.

It doesn't really matter, all they have to do is muddy the waters and the
dittohead types, along with the great unwashed masses of Fox News viewers
will be satisfied that the documents have been totally debunked. The lazy
swing voters who can't read a newspaper to save their lives will consider
the whole matter too confusing to evaluate.

I'm not sure I understand why CBS is pursuing this matter.

Right - it may have something to do with integrity or
something. A totally foreign concept to Rove.

Jim

Ah..Jim..please dont mention Integrity and Democrat politicians in
the same breath. Least of all dont type it. Your computer will
emplode.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:05:50 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 04:23:20 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


Gunner wrote:


On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:33:04 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:



Anyway, Gunner, the answer to both your questions is "yes". I may have
anticipated some other questions. What do you believe now, and why?

Dale Scroggins


At this point, I shall take a wait and see stance.

Im still wondering why the daughter and wife of the gent in question
state categorically that those are frauds.

Gunner


I saw reports of statements by the widow and a son. Didn't see anything
about a daughter; widow and son said, as I recall, it was unfair to
pick out things the "gent" wrote thirty years ago and broadcast them
when he couldn't put his statements in context. Valid point, but
uncorrectable. After we die, things we wrote down are likely to be
taken at face value.

Widow avows he wasn't a typist. Didn't discuss likelihood of a clerk or
secretary.

Didn't see anything from either the widow or the son claiming direct
knowledge that the documents were forged. Just general sentiment.
Widow admits he left some other documents around, but she really hasn't
looked for them.

Dale Scroggins


You are correct. I was thinking of another fellow who a number of
years ago swore under oath that Bush had crossed his Is and dotted his
t's, then recently said he had not. I was thinking of his daughter who
had posed the question and exposed him..

Name starts with a B..just recently..last week

Barnes. Speaker of the House in Texas. He claims he made the call that
put Dubya at the head of the line. A caller to a radio talk show on the
east coast claimed to be his daughter and called him a liar.

Thats the one. Various news organizations have interviewed her
publicly. Quite believable. Shrug.


Might also want to read this article currently running on
www.drudgereport.com

"Saturday, another retired Air National Guard officer came forward to
attack CBSNEWS credibility. Retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, who was
cited by a senior CBS official on Thursday as the network's "trump
card" in verifying the documents, said in an interview that he was
"misled" by CBS and believed the documents to be forgeries.

Hodges said that he was read only excerpts of the documents and never
saw the documents. A CBS spokesman said the network stands by its
report. "

I dont't think Hodges was the lynchpin of the story. I think the
primary source was Killian's XO, or administrative officer. Strong, I
think. There's no doubt that Dubya's case was a divisive issue in the
command of TANG at the time. Apparently, it still is.

And this one....G

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...shguard11.html

More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic

By Pete Slover
The Dallas Morning News

AUSTIN, Texas — The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure
to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air
National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was
written, his service record shows.

Not a realistic viewpoint by the writer.

My introduction to metalworking came in the shop of a retired NG
officer. He was a P-51 pilot in WWII, came home, joined the Guard, and
retired as some sort of General. He had been retired for five years
when I first met him. He still knew lots of phone numbers of active
officers, and they listened to him. He didn't ask for favors often, but
he was never denied. He still received calls from active officers
seeking his help years after his retirement. Like in local politics,
one need not hold office to hold power. It's who you know and who owes you.

True enough. I still have a few back channels into the Old Boy Network
myself.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter
"Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972. CBS News
reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as
interfering with officers' negative evaluations of the future
president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents
that seem to suggest Bush sought special treatment as a pilot, failed
to carry out a superior's order to undergo a physical exam and was
suspended from flying for failing to meet Air National Guard
standards.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls
seeking comment. His discharge paper was among documents obtained by
The Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into
Bush's Guard record.

A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have
continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former
high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would
have left Staudt powerless.

Authenticity of the memo and three others included in Wednesday's "60
Minutes" report came in for heavy criticism yesterday, prompting an
unusual, on-air defense of the original work. Experts on typography
said the memos appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not
available at the time.

I think this part will change within the next week. If the story has legs.

Time will tell.


And the widow and son of the officer who supposedly wrote them, Lt.
Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984, have said it wasn't his nature
to keep detailed personal notes.

In its news broadcast yesterday, CBS said the documents were supported
by both unnamed witnesses and others, including document examiners.

CBS anchor Dan Rather earlier told The Dallas Morning News that he had
heard nothing to make him question the legitimacy of the memos. He
attributed the backlash to partisan politics and competitive
journalism.

"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant
Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said.
"Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not,
I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the
professional rumor mill."

The Washington Post quoted Rather as saying CBS had talked to two
people who worked with Killian — his superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby
Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong — and both
described the memos as consistent with what they knew of Killian.
Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the documents, is an avid
Bush supporter and "it took a lot for him to speak the truth," the
Post quoted Rather as saying.




The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he
believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS news executive
confirmed that Hodges had changed his story.

Rather's interview with The Morning News concluded before the
newspaper determined the date of Staudt's departure, but a CBS staffer
with extensive knowledge of the story said later that the departure
doesn't derail the story. "From what we've learned, Staudt remained
very active after he retired," the staffer said, speaking on condition
of anonymity. "He was a very bullying type, and that could have
continued."

In the "60 Minutes" report, Rather said of the memo's contents:
"Killian says Col. Buck Staudt, the man in charge of the Texas Air
National Guard, is putting on pressure to 'sugarcoat' an evaluation of
Lt. Bush."

Staudt was the person Bush initially contacted about Guard service,
and he was the group commander at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston
when Bush arrived there to fly an F-102 jet. He transferred later to
Austin, where he served as chief of staff for the Air National Guard.

In the disputed memo, Killian supposedly wrote "(another officer) gave
me a message today from group regarding Bush's (evaluation) and Staudt
is pushing to sugarcoat it."

It continues: "Austin is not happy either."

The CBS staffer said the memo appears to recognize that Staudt has
retired, since it differentiates between his displeasure and that of
Austin, where he served his final Guard stint.

But another Texas Air National Guard official who served in that
period said the memo appears to wrongly associate Staudt with his
group command in Houston, and — based on that mistake — the memo
distinguishes his views from that of the Austin Guard.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, director of Air National Guard operations
for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973, said Staudt "wasn't
on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis
makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He
couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you
don't have any authority."

Maybe no authority, but influence can persist. See above.

Perhaps.

This is indeed an interesting bit. If the allegations of fraud are
proven, lets hope that those reponsible are punished fully. When NBC
tried the exploding side saddle gas tank fraud..heads rolled there as
well. Perhaps CBS will have the guts to eviserate its own.

Probably not, according to Bernard Goldberg.

Only time will tell.


Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:55:28 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

Retired Guard generals definitely have a lot of clout long after they
retire. 10 years after he retired General Russell singlehanded got the 48th
Infantry to relocate its summer camp from Ft. McClellan to Ft. Stewart in
his home town .

But did he do it for a lowly First Louie?

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

In article , Gunner says...

But did he do it for a lowly First Louie?

Ha ha ha. A 1st L. who's name is.....

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

Right - it may have something to do with integrity or
something. A totally foreign concept to Rove.

Jim

Ah..Jim..please dont mention Integrity and Democrat politicians in
the same breath.

Rove is a republican.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:34:58 GMT, Dale Scroggins
wrote:


This fellow is a loser, Gunner. Not because he's a Republican or a
conservative. There are admirable people who are both. I'd vote for
any of them if they were running. But I can't vote for Dubya. I don't
want to be held responsible.

Dale Scroggins


Fair enough.

Your opinion is indeed noted.

And if things go well, Id expect you to not try to cash in on the
rising economy or even hint at sharing any credit.

If Kerry wins, and things turn to ****..I will indeed return to haunt
you with your own words.

Not to worry. I have a defense well-polished by the Bush supporters;
anything bad that happens in the next four years will be Bush's fault.

Dale Scroggins

In article , Dale Scroggins says...

If Kerry wins, and things turn to ****..I will indeed return to haunt
you with your own words.

Not to worry. I have a defense well-polished by the Bush supporters;
anything bad that happens in the next four years will be Bush's fault.

Haa ha. Bravo! That's just the plan to adopt.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 12 Sep 2004 13:32:00 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Right - it may have something to do with integrity or
something. A totally foreign concept to Rove.

Jim

Ah..Jim..please dont mention Integrity and Democrat politicians in
the same breath.

Rove is a republican.

Jim

Yes and?

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On 12 Sep 2004 13:30:52 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

But did he do it for a lowly First Louie?

Ha ha ha. A 1st L. who's name is.....

Jim

Old HW Bush was a a first term Representative in Congress in 1968.
Not exactly someone who has a lot of power over the Guard.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

In article , Gunner says...

Old HW Bush was a a first term Representative in Congress in 1968.
Not exactly someone who has a lot of power over the Guard.

It's a small world out there, and at that time, I bet texas
politics were a tiny bit of a small world. Bush's connections
with business in the state probably carried more weight than
his seat in the house.

Trust me, folks knew who Dubya's dad was.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

Ah..Jim..please dont mention Integrity and Democrat politicians in
the same breath.

Rove is a republican.

Yes and?

The only politician's being discussed here *are* republicans.
Rove is running his man and responding to media attacks. That's
what he does. Nobody was talking about democrats at all.

I admit that talking 'integrity' in a political ****-match
is dumb. What you didn't pick up on (you need more mountain
dew...) is I was putting newcasters (rather) into the integrity
arena.

As Sherman once said, if you killed all the newpapermen in the
morning there would be 'news from hell' by breakfast. Even
so, Rather is defending the only real thing a news person has,
his believability. Somebody (you?) voiced suprise here about his
strong response to attacks on his sources. It was no
suprise to me that he'd come out strong on that.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:30:22 GMT, Gunner
calmly ranted:

On 12 Sep 2004 13:30:52 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

But did he do it for a lowly First Louie?

Ha ha ha. A 1st L. who's name is.....

Jim

Old HW Bush was a a first term Representative in Congress in 1968.
Not exactly someone who has a lot of power over the Guard.

Um, his -family- wasn't exactly poor at the time.
Aren't you glad these aren't YOUR family values?
http://www.hereinreality.com/familyvalues.html


-------------------------------------------------------
Have you read the new book "What Would Machiavelli Do?"
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Dynamic, Interactive Websites!
--------------------------------------------------------

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show "ATP"
wrote back on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 01:19:07 GMT
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Oh well. Nice try, Karl Rove! Glad to see he's in
there pitching, trying his darndest to keep 'his man's'
feet clean. Some you win, some you lose.

Looks like a loser for Mr. Rove on this one.

Jim

It doesn't really matter, all they have to do is muddy the waters and the
dittohead types, along with the great unwashed masses of Fox News viewers
will be satisfied that the documents have been totally debunked. The lazy
swing voters who can't read a newspaper to save their lives will consider
the whole matter too confusing to evaluate.

So, you are believing that these documents are real documents, despite
the lack of verification aside from CBS?

Say, I've been meaning to sell some Roman Drachmas, they have Julius
Ceaser's portrait and are dated 44BCE. I've also a certificate of
authentication to validate them, so you don't have to worry.


tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
Most journalists these days couldn't investigate a missing chocolate cake
at a pre-school without a Democrat office holder telling them what to look for,
where, and what significance it all has.

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show jim rozen
wrote back on 12 Sep 2004 13:32:00 -0700 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
In article , Gunner says...

Right - it may have something to do with integrity or
something. A totally foreign concept to Rove.

Ah..Jim..please dont mention Integrity and Democrat politicians in
the same breath.

Rove is a republican.

Jim

Right. So what? Apparently, Jim just woke up from a coma, and doesn't
know anything about James "Corporal Cueball" Carville. Or the
spear-catcher, what's his name the Press Secretary for Clinton.

Say, who hired Craig Livingstone? Did they ever find out? I know he
turned in a resignation, but to whom? That's one of the elements which made
the Clinton White House so much fun. Were else can a bouncer from Arkansas
become the Chief of Security without having to get a job interview or even
needing to be told where to pick up is check. And then he can just call up
the FBI and IRS and have 'em send confidential files (breaking the law in
the process) over to the White House.

And then there is Jim "two tapes" Baghdad McDermit. He is given a
"chance" recording of a cell phone conference call (the recording of which
is a felony) and then Jim, not being aware of the law he sponsored, turns
this evidence of criminal activity over to the newspapers, as opposed to
the Justice Department.

Yeah, tell me about "democrats" being the party of "integrity". They
wouldn't know integrity if it dropped a keg on their head.


tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

In article , pyotr filipivich
says...

That's one of the elements which made
the Clinton White House so much fun. ...

I love this. As soon as somebody suggest that georgie
boy got grounded for not ****ing in a cup at his
physical, the first thing out of everyone's mouth is
the cannonical:

" W H A T A B O U T C L I N T O N ???!!!!"

Hey folks. That was about four years ago. Time to
pick up the pace here.

Heck. Who's bush gonna blame, if he wins?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

pyotr filipivich wrote:
I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show "ATP"
wrote back on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 01:19:07 GMT
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Oh well. Nice try, Karl Rove! Glad to see he's in
there pitching, trying his darndest to keep 'his man's'
feet clean. Some you win, some you lose.

Looks like a loser for Mr. Rove on this one.

Jim


It doesn't really matter, all they have to do is muddy the waters and the
dittohead types, along with the great unwashed masses of Fox News viewers
will be satisfied that the documents have been totally debunked. The lazy
swing voters who can't read a newspaper to save their lives will consider
the whole matter too confusing to evaluate.


So, you are believing that these documents are real documents, despite
the lack of verification aside from CBS?

Say, I've been meaning to sell some Roman Drachmas, they have Julius
Ceaser's portrait and are dated 44BCE. I've also a certificate of
authentication to validate them, so you don't have to worry.

I was in Regular Army, WA National Guard and
Army Reserve from '70 to '74ish. The thing that
I find amusing is that nearly everyone from that
era was trying to get out of something. Nearly
everyone that could, pulled strings. Nearly everyone
missed Guard or Reserve meetings. I did. Nearly
everyone schemed to stay out of Nam. I did. It
was the way it was. I don't believe the Bush memos
are real, but even if they are, I'd be a hypocrite
to find much fault in them.

In article , pyotr filipivich
says...

So, you are believing that these documents are real documents, despite
the lack of verification aside from CBS?

Which documents, the ones released by the white house, that
say that bush got grounded for disobeying the order to
take a physical?

Now why would *any* jet pilot (heck, that's got to be
the best job in the whole world) decide he'd rather be
grounded than take a simple physical?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show jim rozen
wrote back on 14 Sep 2004 17:06:31 -0700 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
In article , pyotr filipivich
says...

That's one of the elements which made the Clinton White House so much fun. ...

I love this. As soon as somebody suggest that georgie
boy got grounded for not ****ing in a cup at his
physical, the first thing out of everyone's mouth is
the cannonical:

" W H A T A B O U T C L I N T O N ???!!!!"

What about him? He's had chest pain, he's had a quadrupled by-pass
surgery.

Hey folks. That was about four years ago. Time to
pick up the pace here.

Okay. So what does President Bush's TANG service have to do with
anything? That was 35 years ago, and President Bush himself has said that
Kerry got shot at, all he did was fly airplanes.

Heck. Who's bush gonna blame, if he wins?

You, and the other Democrats

--
pyotr filipivich
Most journalists these days couldn't investigate a missing chocolate cake
at a pre-school without a Democrat office holder telling them what to look for,
where, and what significance it all has.