On 3 Aug 2003 04:02:46 GMT, Ignoramus11713 wrote:
The set weight about 7 lbs 6 oz, according to my postal scale.

I have no intention of selling the set as it would look great in our
house.

I have two questions:

1. How can I check if it is really silver

Do like Archemedes, measure how much volume it
displaces, and calculate its specific gravity. Pure silver
has a specific gravity of 10.49.

2. How can I clean the dark silver safely and effectively.

Tarn-X

Gary

"Ignoramus11713" wrote in message
...
Today, I bought the following tea service set at a garage sale:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/silver_service

I paid $25 for it. The seller told me that it was made of solid
sterling silver, bt I did not believe him (and hence got my price
instead of asking price). I bought it purely because it was looked
good and I assumed it was made from some cheap metal that was silver
plated.

Upon getting home however, I tried to make some deep scratches in an
unconspicuous place in one piece, and to my surprise, despite making a
deep scratch, the metal beneath was still relatively soft and silvery
looking. The stamp on the service pieces refers to some silversmith.

The set weight about 7 lbs 6 oz, according to my postal scale.

I have no intention of selling the set as it would look great in our
house.

I have two questions:

1. How can I check if it is really silver

2. How can I clean the dark silver safely and effectively.

Thanks

Your simple test may or may not tell you anything. Often the base metal
under silver plate is the same color as silver, so when the silver wears
away you can't really tell. Sterling silver is an alloy commonly used
for such things, along with silver plate. It would be highly unlikely your
items are made of pure silver. Sterling is a composition of 92.5% silver,
7.5% copper. Scandinavian countries used different alloys of silver and
copper, some as low as 70% silver. The marks on your pieces should tell
you what they are made of. Look for a number like 925, which would be
sterling, 900, which would be "coin" silver, Also look for hallmarks,
such as a lion. Tell us what you see marked on the bottom of your pieces
and we may be able to tell you what you bought.

If you are interested in a non-destructive test for silver, there is a
solution that will react blood red when applied to silver, a mixture of
distilled water, nitric acid and potassium dichromate. Nitric acid
alone will also react, leaving a cream colored surface on the item being
tested if it is silver, but a green reaction if you test a scratch through a
plated item. None of this is difficult, but if you haven't seen the tests
done before you may not understand what you are seeing when doing the tests.
If you can provide more information I may be able to tell you more.
..

Harold

Ignoramus11713 wrote:
In article , Gary Coffman wrote:

On 3 Aug 2003 04:02:46 GMT, Ignoramus11713 wrote:

The set weight about 7 lbs 6 oz, according to my postal scale.

I have no intention of selling the set as it would look great in our
house.

I have two questions:

1. How can I check if it is really silver

Do like Archemedes, measure how much volume it
displaces, and calculate its specific gravity. Pure silver
has a specific gravity of 10.49.


2. How can I clean the dark silver safely and effectively.

Tarn-X

Gary



Thanks, I just cleaned it using the electrolytic method, details at
same site

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/silver_service

i

Whatever you do, don't use tarn-x. It destroys the value of real
silver, if by any chance that was what you actually bought. Sterling
acquires a patina by being rubbed with normal silver cleaner over many
years, it's a pain in the ass to do but it's the only thing that will
really preserve the value of good silver.

If it's plate it's far less important, as most plate has very little
monetary value, and the silver is gradually removed with polish.

For what it's worth, unless it's marked sterling the odds are incredibly
high it's plate. Are there any marks at all?

Ignoramus23169 wrote:
In article , Richard Ward wrote:

Ignoramus11713 wrote:

In article , Gary Coffman wrote:


On 3 Aug 2003 04:02:46 GMT, Ignoramus11713 wrote:


The set weight about 7 lbs 6 oz, according to my postal scale.

I have no intention of selling the set as it would look great in our
house.

I have two questions:

1. How can I check if it is really silver

Do like Archemedes, measure how much volume it
displaces, and calculate its specific gravity. Pure silver
has a specific gravity of 10.49.



2. How can I clean the dark silver safely and effectively.

Tarn-X

Gary



Thanks, I just cleaned it using the electrolytic method, details at
same site

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/silver_service

i

Whatever you do, don't use tarn-x. It destroys the value of real
silver, if by any chance that was what you actually bought. Sterling
acquires a patina by being rubbed with normal silver cleaner over many
years, it's a pain in the ass to do but it's the only thing that will
really preserve the value of good silver.


Thanks Richard.

We cleaned it in boiling water with soda and salt and aluminum foil,
and then a little with baking soda.


If it's plate it's far less important, as most plate has very little
monetary value, and the silver is gradually removed with polish.


obviously the plate has very little value, yes, but it looks very
beautiful. So plate or not, we will keep the service.

I did however do some tests whether it is solid sterling silver. I
scratched the tray with a key, making fairly deep scratches, in an
unconspicuous place.

Two things became apparent, that the metal underneath is relatively
soft, and second, that it is silvery.

I have a set of tiny brass cups that are silver plated, those are
obviously plated as there is yellow metal beneath. In my current
instance however, there is no such yellow metal and also it is too
soft to be steel of any kind (incl stainless).

Plus the sellers said that it was solid sterling silver, which I did
not believe originally, but now it is starting to be more believable.


For what it's worth, unless it's marked sterling the odds are incredibly
high it's plate. Are there any marks at all?


It refers to some silversmith. I did not see any marks saying it is
sterling silver, but I will look again.

i


First, there are lots of base metals they put electroplate over, so
merely not seeing copper when you scratch it is no big deal. The base
metals are often soft. You sometimes see electroplate over German
Silver, which isn't really silver at all, it's a soft, easily cast alloy
with a silvery color.

Can you post a link to a photo of the mark? If it says E.P. followed by
anything it's electroplate. The same thing with quadruple plate or
Sheffield plate. If it was made in the US, it would pretty much either
say Sterling, or if it's fairly old it might say CS or coin silver. The
name of a silver company doesn't mean it's silver, many companies sold
both sterling and plate.

Look up WM A ROGERS BY ONEIDA LTD on google. You get some interesting
results.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...+BY+ONEIDA+LTD

"Deborah Stevenson" wrote in message
...

On 3 Aug 2003, Ignoramus23169 wrote:

There is a label and a stamping "WM A ROGERS BY ONEIDA LTD
SILVERSMITHS".

A quick Google strongly suggests plate.

Deborah Stevenson
)

....and low-end, at that.

I feel sorry for someone when they *think* they have a great
item at a bargain (based on a seller lie), but the signs were
there.

Kris

Solid sterling silver is marked as such and plated is also marked as such.
There are very rigid standards for marking such materials and violations are
often harshly dealt with to the manufacturers. That doesn't mean that
somebody can't mark the parts with the wrong marks but they first have to
get rid of the proper marks.
I'd do a google to see what the proper marks are as well as the manufacturer
that made the set.

--
Bob May
Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less.
Works evevery time it is tried!

Ignoramus23169 wrote:
snip
At least I paid $25 for the set, and it looks great after cleaning. I
figure that it is worth at least $25. And By The Way, I did not
believe the sellers when I was buying. I started believing them after
I did some testing.


i


If you like it, that's all that really matters. Retail value is
meaningless if you like something and intend to keep it. How well
something would sell only comes into play if you bought it to resell it.

I buy lots of stuff that I could never resell for what I paid for it. I
buy it because I like it, what someone else would pay for it is irrelevant.

Ignoramus23169 wrote in message ...

There is a label and a stamping "WM A ROGERS BY ONEIDA LTD
SILVERSMITHS".

Nowhere it says sterling silver or EP.

i

This is almost certainly silverplate.

Do not assume that it is worthless because it is has no scrap value.

An attractive plated tea service, in good condition but no other collector
value would probably sell in an antique shop for around $300.

Paul K. Dickman

"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
...

Ignoramus23169 wrote in message ...

There is a label and a stamping "WM A ROGERS BY ONEIDA LTD
SILVERSMITHS".

Nowhere it says sterling silver or EP.

i

This is almost certainly silverplate.

Do not assume that it is worthless because it is has no scrap value.

An attractive plated tea service, in good condition but no other collector
value would probably sell in an antique shop for around $300.

Paul K. Dickman




Look for the letter 'EPNS' stamped VERY small somewhere and looking like an
assay mark - ElectroPlated Nickel Silver

Andrew
Bromley, Kent, UK

I have some Rogers plate, that was my mothers. If it doesn't say "sterling"
on it, it's plate. Some times Sterling will have a decimalised purity number
instead.

Steve Rayner.


"mrbonaparte" wrote in message
news:rkcXa.34514$Ne.20859@fed1read03...
Look up WM A ROGERS BY ONEIDA LTD on google. You get some interesting
results.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...GERS+BY+ONEIDA
+LTD

Ignoramus23169 wrote:
In article , Paul K. Dickman wrote:

Ignoramus23169 wrote in message ...

There is a label and a stamping "WM A ROGERS BY ONEIDA LTD
SILVERSMITHS".

Nowhere it says sterling silver or EP.

i

This is almost certainly silverplate.

Do not assume that it is worthless because it is has no scrap value.

An attractive plated tea service, in good condition but no other collector
value would probably sell in an antique shop for around $300.

Paul K. Dickman





how about ebay? I generally sell stuff on ebay, mostly military
surplus. I do not plan to sell this service on ebay because I like it,
but I am curious as to how much it can fetch.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/silver_service

I looked on eBay, and the vast majority of Rogers sets sold for around
$25-30. As for the the $300 in an antique shop estimate, when I had
booths in antique malls in the Dallas, Texas area, Rogers teapots and
coffee pots generally went for around $20 or so in antique malls, and
could be bought at auction for under $10 each. The set you've got
wouldn't bring more than $75 in most shops in my area, and generally
wouldn't be found at all except in antique malls and fairly low end
shops, as modern plate doesn't sell particularly well. They're common
as dirt, because damn near everyone got one as a wedding present, and no
one ever used them.

That being said, it really doesn't matter. You bought it because you
liked it, you couldn't buy it new for anywhere near what you paid for
it, and after paying shipping fees you couldn't buy it on eBay for what
you paid for it. Forget about what it's worth, and enjoy it.

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:13:27 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On 3 Aug 2003 04:02:46 GMT, Ignoramus11713 wrote:
The set weight about 7 lbs 6 oz, according to my postal scale.

I have no intention of selling the set as it would look great in our
house.

I have two questions:

1. How can I check if it is really silver

Do like Archemedes, measure how much volume it
displaces, and calculate its specific gravity. Pure silver
has a specific gravity of 10.49.

2. How can I clean the dark silver safely and effectively.

Tarn-X

Never! Worst thing you can do to sterling or plated silver.

Richard Ward wrote in message ...
how about ebay? I generally sell stuff on ebay, mostly military
surplus. I do not plan to sell this service on ebay because I like it,
but I am curious as to how much it can fetch.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/silver_service

I looked on eBay, and the vast majority of Rogers sets sold for around
$25-30. As for the the $300 in an antique shop estimate, when I had
booths in antique malls in the Dallas, Texas area, Rogers teapots and
coffee pots generally went for around $20 or so in antique malls, and
could be bought at auction for under $10 each. The set you've got
wouldn't bring more than $75 in most shops in my area, and generally
wouldn't be found at all except in antique malls and fairly low end
shops, as modern plate doesn't sell particularly well. They're common
as dirt, because damn near everyone got one as a wedding present, and no
one ever used them.

First, condition means a lot. Buying sight unseen on ebay leads to reduced
value

I repair antique metalwork for a living. I charge $20 to remove a simple
dent in a silver plate pot, The dealers bring me 2-3 a week.

Second, sets bring a premium. Orphan pots are bought by college students and
young marrieds, trying to decorate.

Sets are bought by someone who is looking for a 25th anniv gift for their
cousin Leon.

Here's a generic set, sans tray for $175
http://www.kassai.com/items/145156/i...tore.html#item


Here's a more collectable set, with tray for $1095 down in DFW
http://antiquesbytrudymiller.com/eteryours_teaset.htm

Back in the Bunker-Hunt days, we trashed tons of this stuff.


That being said, it really doesn't matter. You bought it because you
liked it, you couldn't buy it new for anywhere near what you paid for
it, and after paying shipping fees you couldn't buy it on eBay for what
you paid for it. Forget about what it's worth, and enjoy it.

This, I fully agree with. A silver teapot is one of the worlds most useless
things. You will spend more time cleaning it than using it, but it is an
attractive thing, that you would never have thought about buying retail.

You paid as much as you would have for a movie and popcorn. If you only pull
it out on thanksgiving, you will have had more enjoyment than it's cost .


Paul K. Dickman

"Tony Cooper" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:34:08 -0500, Richard Ward
wrote:

Paul K. Dickman wrote:
snip
Second, sets bring a premium. Orphan pots are bought by college
students and
young marrieds, trying to decorate.

Sets are bought by someone who is looking for a 25th anniv gift for
their
cousin Leon.
snip
Take a look at the photo. It isn't a set per se.

The traditional tea and coffee service is five pieces: tea pot,
coffee pot, creamer, sugar and tray.

Yes, we know that.

I can't tell from the picture if the items here pattern match.

The tray isn't right, and neither are the pieces.

I've got some infusers I've never listed. Maybe I should list one for
him to buy.

Better yet. Trade him a teapot for one of his extra coffee
servers.

Kris

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:25:30 GMT, "Kris Baker"
wrote:

The traditional tea and coffee service is five pieces: tea pot,
coffee pot, creamer, sugar and tray.

Yes, we know that.

Who is "we"? You may, but the owner can't find the silver marks, let
alone necessarily know what the trad set is. I just thought I'd
mention it.

I can't tell from the picture if the items here pattern match.

The tray isn't right, and neither are the pieces.

Tray's too small for a set. Most sets used a rectangular tray for the
sets, but not all.

I've got some infusers I've never listed. Maybe I should list one for
him to buy.

Better yet. Trade him a teapot for one of his extra coffee
servers.

Nah. He can put boiling water in one of the coffee pots and dangle a
silver-plate tea infuser in a cup. Much classier than a tea bag.
Then, I've got a couple of tea strainers - the kind that fit over cup
- to put the soggy tea in. Think he can be taught to bend his pinky?
If he's got any money left, I have some nice sterling sugar cube
tongs.

Why is it, by the way, that most restaurants will give you unlimited
refills of coffee, but charge you for a second little pot of hot water
for tea?

Will you be mother?

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:34:17 GMT, "Kris Baker"
wrote:


"Tony Cooper" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:25:30 GMT, "Kris Baker"
wrote:

The traditional tea and coffee service is five pieces: tea pot,
coffee pot, creamer, sugar and tray.

Yes, we know that.

Who is "we"? You may, but the owner can't find the silver marks, let
alone necessarily know what the trad set is. I just thought I'd
mention it.

He found the markings. This is a case where the
item is so low-end, what you see is what you get.


We disagree on what is "low-end". Real low-end is a china teapot made
by someone in one of those paint-and-fire-it-yourself shops that is
hand-painted with flowers that look like mutant posies that grew in
Hiroshima in the late 1940s, a music box in the base that plays "Tea
For Two", a wobbly bottom, and a spout like a leaker hose. That, and
a creamer that is shaped like a cow vomiting half-and-half and a sugar
bowl in the form of a bull's scrotum. Put them on a metal tray with a
lithograph of Elvis in a white suit with sequins, and you have
"low-end".

A silver-plate service is sophisticated compared to this, provided
that you have a white living room suite with clear plastic slip-covers
and a huge Capi de Monte lamp with a fringed shade on a recoco lamp
table in the picture window. You can sit and watch the silver-plate
grow tarnish. It's like watching a lava lamp.

Tony Cooper wrote :We disagree on what is "low-end"
^^^^^^^^^^
This shows that you can cover a very wide range on a logarithmic scale.

Bring your own tea bags