But the problem is that this application will be used to work with
molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbideÂ* , the "handle" is steel .
I'll be getting more info from her when we get together next week , but
would like to have some ideas in hand by then .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

On 30/04/18 18:41, Terry Coombs wrote:
But the problem is that this application will be used to work with
molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is
in actual contact with the glass , is carbideÂ* , the "handle" is steel
. I'll be getting more info from her when we get together next week ,
but would like to have some ideas in hand by then .

Terry,

Are you talking about the bead mandrel that the bead is formed on or a
tool for working the bead. I've made the mandrels in the past for a few
bead makers out of 309 TIG rod and they seem to work fine, the
commercially supplied one I've seen look to be TIG rod also. Maybe for a
mandrel TIG tungsten of if carbide rod then hold either in some sort of
pin chuck with an extension for gripping away from the heat.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:41:20 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

But the problem is that this application will be used to work with
molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbide* , the "handle" is steel .
I'll be getting more info from her when we get together next week , but
would like to have some ideas in hand by then .

Commerical brazed-tip cutting tools use bronze brazing. I have some
homemade ones that were silver brazed.

There are brazing alloys that are made specifically for brazing
carbide cutting tips onto steel shanks. Handy &
Harman/Lucas-Milhaupt's Easy-Flo 3 is one that's been around for
decades, if you don't mind the cadmium. There may be newer ones. Watch
the solidus temperatures if they're to be exposed to molten glass.
Easy-Flo 3 is 1170 deg. F.

https://www.cantas.com/urunpdf/Lucas...n_Katalogu.pdf

--
Ed Huntress

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:40:37 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:

molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbideÂ* , the "handle" is steel ..

If you don't want to burn your hand, a section of stainless tube has
less heat conductivity than solid steel...

So, what carbide is it? SiC, B4C, WC are all carbides, one would hope
that it's a bit of tungsten carbide composite (cobalt metal is what the
braze sticks to), but it doesn't hurt to ask. Even C2/C4 could make a
difference.

On 4/30/2018 4:32 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:40:37 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:

molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbideÂ* , the "handle" is steel .
If you don't want to burn your hand, a section of stainless tube has
less heat conductivity than solid steel...

So, what carbide is it? SiC, B4C, WC are all carbides, one would hope
that it's a bit of tungsten carbide composite (cobalt metal is what the
braze sticks to), but it doesn't hurt to ask. Even C2/C4 could make a
difference.

Â* At this time I have exactly zero details ... I was just wondering if
there was a hi-temp braze or TIG filler that would work . Right now I
have no idea what the operating temp is , but I do know that when I use
glass as a cover flux for brass/bronze melts it's a very thick liquid at
pouring temps .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:00:40 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 4/30/2018 4:32 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:40:37 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:

molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbide* , the "handle" is steel .
If you don't want to burn your hand, a section of stainless tube has
less heat conductivity than solid steel...

So, what carbide is it? SiC, B4C, WC are all carbides, one would hope
that it's a bit of tungsten carbide composite (cobalt metal is what the
braze sticks to), but it doesn't hurt to ask. Even C2/C4 could make a
difference.

* At this time I have exactly zero details ... I was just wondering if
there was a hi-temp braze or TIG filler that would work . Right now I
have no idea what the operating temp is , but I do know that when I use
glass as a cover flux for brass/bronze melts it's a very thick liquid at
pouring temps .

I looked through that Hany and Harman list and I see one newer one
made for carbide/steel has a solidus over 1600 deg. F. That ought to
cover you.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:00:40 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 4/30/2018 4:32 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:40:37 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:

molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbide* , the "handle" is steel .
If you don't want to burn your hand, a section of stainless tube has
less heat conductivity than solid steel...

So, what carbide is it? SiC, B4C, WC are all carbides, one would hope
that it's a bit of tungsten carbide composite (cobalt metal is what the
braze sticks to), but it doesn't hurt to ask. Even C2/C4 could make a
difference.

* At this time I have exactly zero details ... I was just wondering if
there was a hi-temp braze or TIG filler that would work . Right now I
have no idea what the operating temp is , but I do know that when I use
glass as a cover flux for brass/bronze melts it's a very thick liquid at
pouring temps .

I've TIG brazed tungsten carbide to steel and stainless steel with
silicon bronze wire with some success. If heat resistance is more
important than strength and impact resistance, and if you can use a
generous fillet or vee joint, it might be worth a try. The silicon
bronze wets the carbide pretty well, but will not flow into a butt
joint like silver solder will.

--
Ned Simmons

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:00:40 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 4/30/2018 4:32 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:40:37 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:

molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbide* , the "handle" is steel .
If you don't want to burn your hand, a section of stainless tube has
less heat conductivity than solid steel...

So, what carbide is it? SiC, B4C, WC are all carbides, one would hope
that it's a bit of tungsten carbide composite (cobalt metal is what the
braze sticks to), but it doesn't hurt to ask. Even C2/C4 could make a
difference.

* At this time I have exactly zero details ... I was just wondering if
there was a hi-temp braze or TIG filler that would work . Right now I
have no idea what the operating temp is , but I do know that when I use
glass as a cover flux for brass/bronze melts it's a very thick liquid at
pouring temps .

I think you'll have to weld it, as brazing rod melts at 840C, bronze
at 900C, and non-liquid glass works at 1,427-1,538C.

http://www.glasscraftinc.com/home/gl...890/tools.html Many
seem to be graphite.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...+blowing+tools

There is a glass blower and foundry in town which was open one First
Friday (artsy shindig) for touring. Their utility bills are enormous
and it's hot work, like smithing, only quieter and a tad more gentle.


That was fun research. I was surprised that blowing tubes or hot glass
holders weren't common online. The Glass Forge used what appeared to
be something like 5/8 seamless tubing for blowing with some sort of
larger end at the hot working side, maybe carbide.

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

On 01/05/18 19:35, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:00:40 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 4/30/2018 4:32 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:40:37 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:

molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbideÂ* , the "handle" is steel .
If you don't want to burn your hand, a section of stainless tube has
less heat conductivity than solid steel...

So, what carbide is it? SiC, B4C, WC are all carbides, one would hope
that it's a bit of tungsten carbide composite (cobalt metal is what the
braze sticks to), but it doesn't hurt to ask. Even C2/C4 could make a
difference.
Â* At this time I have exactly zero details ... I was just wondering if
there was a hi-temp braze or TIG filler that would work . Right now I
have no idea what the operating temp is , but I do know that when I use
glass as a cover flux for brass/bronze melts it's a very thick liquid at
pouring temps .
I think you'll have to weld it, as brazing rod melts at 840C, bronze
at 900C, and non-liquid glass works at 1,427-1,538C.

http://www.glasscraftinc.com/home/gl...890/tools.html Many
seem to be graphite.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...+blowing+tools

There is a glass blower and foundry in town which was open one First
Friday (artsy shindig) for touring. Their utility bills are enormous
and it's hot work, like smithing, only quieter and a tad more gentle.


That was fun research. I was surprised that blowing tubes or hot glass
holders weren't common online. The Glass Forge used what appeared to
be something like 5/8 seamless tubing for blowing with some sort of
larger end at the hot working side, maybe carbide.

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

The temperatures you mention of 1427C to 1538C are the sort of
temperatures that are used to convert the glass batch, the raw
ingredients, into molten glass, that is far higher than the working
temperature of the glass even borosilicate. I make glass blowing irons
from time to time and use 316 seamless tubing for the shanks and 310 for
the heads. 310 and 309 are common for the heads, some spendy makes use
inconel if you have the money. I have never heard of carbide used for
the heads. Typical glass I blow whether soda lime or lead crystal is
held at about 1100C for gathering and is worked at a lower temperature.
The blowing irons are common online although they're not many makers, in
the US you should find Steinert, Spiral Arts, and Nickelite to name a few.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:41:20 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

But the problem is that this application will be used to work with
molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbide* , the "handle" is steel .
I'll be getting more info from her when we get together next week , but
would like to have some ideas in hand by the
Greetings Terry,
I do some work for some glass blowers that gather glass onto sections
of copper pipe that is in turn held in a steel bushing on the end of
the blow pipe. The copper doesn't melt from the glass. I imagine the
carbide part will never get as hot as the glass becuase it will
probably be only piercing the glass, it won't be used to gather the
glass. So a high temp silver solder, a "hard solder", would probably
work fine.
Eric

On Tue, 1 May 2018 20:24:10 +0100, David Billington
wrote:

On 01/05/18 19:35, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:00:40 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 4/30/2018 4:32 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:40:37 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:

molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbide* , the "handle" is steel .
If you don't want to burn your hand, a section of stainless tube has
less heat conductivity than solid steel...

So, what carbide is it? SiC, B4C, WC are all carbides, one would hope
that it's a bit of tungsten carbide composite (cobalt metal is what the
braze sticks to), but it doesn't hurt to ask. Even C2/C4 could make a
difference.
* At this time I have exactly zero details ... I was just wondering if
there was a hi-temp braze or TIG filler that would work . Right now I
have no idea what the operating temp is , but I do know that when I use
glass as a cover flux for brass/bronze melts it's a very thick liquid at
pouring temps .
I think you'll have to weld it, as brazing rod melts at 840C, bronze
at 900C, and non-liquid glass works at 1,427-1,538C.

http://www.glasscraftinc.com/home/gl...890/tools.html Many
seem to be graphite.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...+blowing+tools

There is a glass blower and foundry in town which was open one First
Friday (artsy shindig) for touring. Their utility bills are enormous
and it's hot work, like smithing, only quieter and a tad more gentle.


That was fun research. I was surprised that blowing tubes or hot glass
holders weren't common online. The Glass Forge used what appeared to
be something like 5/8 seamless tubing for blowing with some sort of
larger end at the hot working side, maybe carbide.

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

The temperatures you mention of 1427C to 1538C are the sort of
temperatures that are used to convert the glass batch, the raw
ingredients, into molten glass, that is far higher than the working
temperature of the glass even borosilicate.

Right you are, which makes me wonder why the page said "non-liquid
glass". Back to the draw...googling board.



I make glass blowing irons
from time to time and use 316 seamless tubing for the shanks and 310 for
the heads. 310 and 309 are common for the heads, some spendy makes use
inconel if you have the money. I have never heard of carbide used for
the heads. Typical glass I blow whether soda lime or lead crystal is
held at about 1100C for gathering and is worked at a lower temperature.
The blowing irons are common online although they're not many makers, in
the US you should find Steinert, Spiral Arts, and Nickelite to name a few.

Yeah, he was talking beads while I expanded on it to include blowing.
Thanks for the correction.

--
If we can ever make red tape nutritional, we can feed the world.
--Robert Schaeberle

On 02/05/18 06:23, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 1 May 2018 20:24:10 +0100, David Billington
wrote:

On 01/05/18 19:35, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:00:40 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 4/30/2018 4:32 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:40:37 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:

molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbideÂ* , the "handle" is steel .
If you don't want to burn your hand, a section of stainless tube has
less heat conductivity than solid steel...

So, what carbide is it? SiC, B4C, WC are all carbides, one would hope
that it's a bit of tungsten carbide composite (cobalt metal is what the
braze sticks to), but it doesn't hurt to ask. Even C2/C4 could make a
difference.
Â* At this time I have exactly zero details ... I was just wondering if
there was a hi-temp braze or TIG filler that would work . Right now I
have no idea what the operating temp is , but I do know that when I use
glass as a cover flux for brass/bronze melts it's a very thick liquid at
pouring temps .
I think you'll have to weld it, as brazing rod melts at 840C, bronze
at 900C, and non-liquid glass works at 1,427-1,538C.

http://www.glasscraftinc.com/home/gl...890/tools.html Many
seem to be graphite.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...+blowing+tools

There is a glass blower and foundry in town which was open one First
Friday (artsy shindig) for touring. Their utility bills are enormous
and it's hot work, like smithing, only quieter and a tad more gentle.


That was fun research. I was surprised that blowing tubes or hot glass
holders weren't common online. The Glass Forge used what appeared to
be something like 5/8 seamless tubing for blowing with some sort of
larger end at the hot working side, maybe carbide.

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)
The temperatures you mention of 1427C to 1538C are the sort of
temperatures that are used to convert the glass batch, the raw
ingredients, into molten glass, that is far higher than the working
temperature of the glass even borosilicate.
Right you are, which makes me wonder why the page said "non-liquid
glass". Back to the draw...googling board.
It's not uncommon for technical information to be incorrect just watch
any episode of "How it's Made" as an example. Often the artisans/workers
may be very skilled at their job but not know much about the technical
details involved in some of the processes and then get someone involved
to take down those details who doesn't know about the process and it can
be like Chinese whispers where what goes in one end is different to what
comes out the other.



I make glass blowing irons
from time to time and use 316 seamless tubing for the shanks and 310 for
the heads. 310 and 309 are common for the heads, some spendy makes use
inconel if you have the money. I have never heard of carbide used for
the heads. Typical glass I blow whether soda lime or lead crystal is
held at about 1100C for gathering and is worked at a lower temperature.
The blowing irons are common online although they're not many makers, in
the US you should find Steinert, Spiral Arts, and Nickelite to name a few.
Yeah, he was talking beads while I expanded on it to include blowing.
Thanks for the correction.

--
If we can ever make red tape nutritional, we can feed the world.
--Robert Schaeberle

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 1:40:37 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
But the problem is that this application will be used to work with
molten glass . There's a glass bead maker here that wants me to make
some rods for making the beads . The "working end" of these , that is in
actual contact with the glass , is carbideÂ* , the "handle" is steel ..
I'll be getting more info from her when we get together next week , but
would like to have some ideas in hand by then .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

I suspect that stainless steel will work just fine. May not last forever, but would be much less expensive to make.

Dan

On Fri, 4 May 2018 12:52:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



I suspect that stainless steel will work just fine. May not last forever, but would be much less expensive to make.

Dan

No. It wouldn't. Glass and SS have a sufficiently large difference
in expansion coefficient that as it cools, the glass cracks and falls
off. That's why blow pipes and puntys are made of SS.

I've never seen TC, nickel bonded used by a bead maker. I'd expect
the nickel to dissolve in the glass and color it at the temperatures
we work with. The standard bead-making stick is a graphite rod. Glass
doesn't stick to it so the bead can be allowed to cool enough to
solidify before being slid off the rod and placed in the annealing
oven.

John, amateur glass worker.
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On 04/05/18 22:34, Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 4 May 2018 12:52:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


I suspect that stainless steel will work just fine. May not last forever, but would be much less expensive to make.

Dan
No. It wouldn't. Glass and SS have a sufficiently large difference
in expansion coefficient that as it cools, the glass cracks and falls
off. That's why blow pipes and puntys are made of SS.

I've never seen TC, nickel bonded used by a bead maker. I'd expect
the nickel to dissolve in the glass and color it at the temperatures
we work with. The standard bead-making stick is a graphite rod. Glass
doesn't stick to it so the bead can be allowed to cool enough to
solidify before being slid off the rod and placed in the annealing
oven.

John, amateur glass worker.
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

All the bead makers I know use stainless steel mandrels without issue.
The area where the bead is built up is coated with some sort of ceramic
wash applied wet and allowed to dry before the bead is started. When the
bead has been formed and annealed and allowed to cool the bead and
mandrel is soaked in water to allow removal of the bead. One issue with
graphite in contact with glass is that it can contaminate the glass
surface, not likely an issue on the inside of a bead, but an issue when
graphite is used against glass to shape it but a quick heat in a glory
hole can remove the contamination.

While all the glass blowing irons I have experience of are stainless
steel I do know someone that has a number of old British irons that are
steel, IIRC CrMo steel, the issue can be scaling of the inside dropping
out of the pipe into the blown piece often ruining it but then I have
seen that problem with stainless steel irons also.

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 3:06:35 PM UTC-7, David Billington wrote:
On 04/05/18 22:34, Neon John wrote:

All the bead makers I know use stainless steel mandrels without issue.
The area where the bead is built up is coated with some sort of ceramic
wash applied wet and allowed to dry before the bead is started.

I've seen that, but the old standby was just copper wire. To remove
the bead, pull hard and stretch the wi the now-thinner wire just
lets the bead(s) slide off. Extra points for having a bolted-to-the-floor
vise to hold wire end A while you grab end B and tug.

On Fri, 4 May 2018 23:06:32 +0100, David Billington
wrote:


All the bead makers I know use stainless steel mandrels without issue.
The area where the bead is built up is coated with some sort of ceramic
wash applied wet and allowed to dry before the bead is started. When the
bead has been formed and annealed and allowed to cool the bead and
mandrel is soaked in water to allow removal of the bead.

Yes, one can do it that way but then the glass is not in contact with
SS but with colloidal silica. The base metal can be anything. Extra
hassle coating the mandrel and getting the silica out of the bead's
bore afterward as compared to simply using graphite.

One issue with
graphite in contact with glass is that it can contaminate the glass
surface, not likely an issue on the inside of a bead, but an issue when
graphite is used against glass to shape it but a quick heat in a glory
hole can remove the contamination.

Maybe it can but I've never seen it happen.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On 05/05/18 16:40, Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 4 May 2018 23:06:32 +0100, David Billington
wrote:


All the bead makers I know use stainless steel mandrels without issue.
The area where the bead is built up is coated with some sort of ceramic
wash applied wet and allowed to dry before the bead is started. When the
bead has been formed and annealed and allowed to cool the bead and
mandrel is soaked in water to allow removal of the bead.
Yes, one can do it that way but then the glass is not in contact with
SS but with colloidal silica. The base metal can be anything. Extra
hassle coating the mandrel and getting the silica out of the bead's
bore afterward as compared to simply using graphite.

One issue with
graphite in contact with glass is that it can contaminate the glass
surface, not likely an issue on the inside of a bead, but an issue when
graphite is used against glass to shape it but a quick heat in a glory
hole can remove the contamination.
Maybe it can but I've never seen it happen.
It's a problem that was mentioned to me during a masterclass by a highly
skilled glass blower that does top quality work and it was particularly
mentioned in relation to colour bar picked up on the end of the iron and
worked with a graphite paddle. If the colour was shaped and gathered
over without a firing in the glory hole first the graphite could leave a
taint on the surface which was visible later.


John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On 5/5/2018 10:40 AM, Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 4 May 2018 23:06:32 +0100, David Billington
wrote:


All the bead makers I know use stainless steel mandrels without issue.
The area where the bead is built up is coated with some sort of ceramic
wash applied wet and allowed to dry before the bead is started. When the
bead has been formed and annealed and allowed to cool the bead and
mandrel is soaked in water to allow removal of the bead.
Yes, one can do it that way but then the glass is not in contact with
SS but with colloidal silica. The base metal can be anything. Extra
hassle coating the mandrel and getting the silica out of the bead's
bore afterward as compared to simply using graphite.

One issue with
graphite in contact with glass is that it can contaminate the glass
surface, not likely an issue on the inside of a bead, but an issue when
graphite is used against glass to shape it but a quick heat in a glory
hole can remove the contamination.
Maybe it can but I've never seen it happen.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

Â* Well , we'll find out all the gory details later this week . She's
supposed to call and set up a time for me to see what she's doing ...
and as soon as I know , y'all will .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown