"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:26:15 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:11:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
.................

Why didn't you leave the harness with the controller, duuuuude?

I put them with this temporarily wired meter.
http://www.amazon.com/6-5-100V-Displ.../dp/B013PKYILS

Picked up one of the little $13 AODE aluminum-cased wattmeters you
mentioned last time, thanks. It works well.

Don't trust the least significant digit of the Amps readout. Mine
actually resolves to 0.2A and fakes higher sensitivity by dithering
the raw value. The wires are too small for its full-scale Amp
capacity. Otherwise it's a very handy gadget for checking and
reconditioning older batteries.
http://www.artecing.com.uy/pdf/guias...uide_en_LR.pdf

I've found a DC resistance check while periodically topping off a
battery to be a good, quick indication of when it needs attention. I
haven't found a good Net reference to this yet, all descriptions of
battery impedance testing I've seen are from companies trying to sell
fancy equipment for it, just like desulfation.

The Bayite meter is more suited to a fixed installation, with the
shunt in the battery cable and the readout at the control panel. I
added a DPDT switch to reverse the (fused) shunt sense leads so it can
read either charge or discharge current. My inverter is an APC1400 UPS
which can draw over 50A continuously, probably too much for the Aode's
wires.

Thinking about moving to a smaller water heater (20g) which can be
heated with lower power elements fed directly from a 24v solar
array.
Hot water is nearly half my electric use, which now averages
$41/mo.

I heat water for laundry in kettles on the woodstove.

I can't stand wood heat, but may when the SHTF. Need to buy one of
those little guys for $60, JIC. http://tinyurl.com/qdvp8lt

Does anyone _like_ the smell of wood smoke in the house? Then
again,
having heat would be A Good Thing(tm), if the natural gas goes out.
I
wonder if they keep generators for the nat gas pumps, and how long
they'd last once the pumps quit, if not. Delivery pressure is
1.5psi,
so it may last a long while.

A properly installed and operated wood stove doesn't emit smoke into
the house, all leaks draw air in. I've learned how to set the draft
for complete combustion with little or no visible smoke from the
chimney.

That wasn't easy. I have thermocouples on the basement stove with
readouts in the kitchen and bedroom and an outdoor mirror plus a night
vision camera to observe the chimney top. It's very convenient to know
when to tend the stove or the food cooking on it from upstairs.

These are cheap and good enough if you can't find (and fix) surplus
lab instruments as I did.
http://www.amazon.com/Durable-TM-902.../dp/B00EQ1WH9Q

-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:26:15 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

.........
Does anyone _like_ the smell of wood smoke in the house? Then
again,
having heat would be A Good Thing(tm), if the natural gas goes out.
I
wonder if they keep generators for the nat gas pumps, and how long
they'd last once the pumps quit, if not. Delivery pressure is
1.5psi,
so it may last a long while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressor_station
"A small portion of natural gas from the pipeline is burned to power
the turbine."

"Commonly known as "recips," these engines are fueled by natural gas
from the pipeline."

I never investigated how reliable or susceptible to sabotage the gas
lines may be. Electricity on poles is demonstrably vulnerable but easy
to repair. Our ice storms and distracted drivers keep the crews in
practice.

My automatic backup is the house's original baseboard electric heat,
set to come on at 50F. I have these on the wall thermostat wires to
warn me if they turn on or I forget to set the bathroom back after
showering.
http://www.amazon.com/CR-Magnetics-R.../dp/B006K3O1MY
In an unlit hallway the LED is visible at a much lower current than
they list. There's no sharp 'turn-on point", they just get brighter as
the current increases.

-jsw

On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:36:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"A2" wrote in message
...
On 19-Nov-15 1:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:11:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message

snipped


Thinking about moving to a smaller water heater (20g) which can
be
heated with lower power elements fed directly from a 24v solar
array.
Hot water is nearly half my electric use, which now averages
$41/mo.


Sounds cheap, how much is off grid power? I'm guessing you are US
based?

We pay about $0.27 per kW.hr here in Australia.

Here in New England, USA grid power costs me $0.15 per KWH. My solar

I forgot to add in the basic charge, so mine costs 11.7 cents per
kWh.

power is really for week-long hurricane or ice storm power outages.
Otherwise it mainly keeps the vehicle batteries topped up so they
last
longer. I don't normally cycle batteries because I estimate that the
cost of depreciation is more than the savings.

These extra panels should add enough current to support the TV and
laptop longer during the day. My Harbor Freight kit gave about an
hour
of Internet access to email and weather radar per day during the
last
outage. Phone line and cellular Internet stayed up on their own
backup
supplies.

What extra panels are you using?

I bought some salvaged monocrystalline panels at a flea market, after
quickly testing them. Although the frames have some corrosion and the
screws are rusty they still put out the current shown on the labels,
but the reverse leakage when shaded is rather high so I added series
Schottky diodes.

Cheap, quick, and easy.


The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)


Unwatched generators attract thieves. I made a sound dampening
enclosure from fireproof acoustic ceiling tiles rimmed with aluminum
flashing but it has to be wide open on one side for ventilation and
doesn't quiet the genny enough that I can't hear it from the street.
The noise is mechanical, an extra muffler makes little difference.

Bury that puppy. The ground makes a really nice sound deadener.
The exhaust smell would be the only giveaway.

You don't understand Granite State soil conditions. Except near rivers
excavation requires dynamite. The last Ice Age scrubbed this place
bare, then deposited a thin layer of sand and rocks as it melted.

Well, if you had a large enough Fresnel lens, you could...
Must suck to put fencing in there, huh? BUT, how are the authorities
around there? Do they readily OK blasting? If so, HAVE FUN! Let's
see, a couple kilos of octanitrocubane and you're making news.
It has the secondary benefit of making your entire neighborhood less
ready to come ask for things when the SHTF.

I saw "cubane" listed in a fictional story I read last month so I
looked it up. It's real! http://tinyurl.com/of9zsj8

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:47:28 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:37:04 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I have 2 deep
cycle Group 24 batteries for that, and used 2/0 cable between them and
the inverter. I have yet to hook it up and try it.
Best be doin that soon...the warranty is running....

This is true. Maybe Sunday...

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as
predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)

Mine were NEVER good for 45 Watts. That was at the Maximum Power Point
of 17V while real-world power is at 12V. I think I saw 32W from them
once when they were new.

-jsw

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:18:34 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:26:15 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:11:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
.................

Why didn't you leave the harness with the controller, duuuuude?

I put them with this temporarily wired meter.
http://www.amazon.com/6-5-100V-Displ.../dp/B013PKYILS

Picked up one of the little $13 AODE aluminum-cased wattmeters you
mentioned last time, thanks. It works well.

Don't trust the least significant digit of the Amps readout. Mine
actually resolves to 0.2A and fakes higher sensitivity by dithering
the raw value. The wires are too small for its full-scale Amp
capacity. Otherwise it's a very handy gadget for checking and
reconditioning older batteries.
http://www.artecing.com.uy/pdf/guias...uide_en_LR.pdf

I've found a DC resistance check while periodically topping off a
battery to be a good, quick indication of when it needs attention. I
haven't found a good Net reference to this yet, all descriptions of
battery impedance testing I've seen are from companies trying to sell
fancy equipment for it, just like desulfation.

The Bayite meter is more suited to a fixed installation, with the
shunt in the battery cable and the readout at the control panel. I
added a DPDT switch to reverse the (fused) shunt sense leads so it can
read either charge or discharge current. My inverter is an APC1400 UPS
which can draw over 50A continuously, probably too much for the Aode's
wires.



Thinking about moving to a smaller water heater (20g) which can be
heated with lower power elements fed directly from a 24v solar
array.
Hot water is nearly half my electric use, which now averages
$41/mo.

I heat water for laundry in kettles on the woodstove.

I can't stand wood heat, but may when the SHTF. Need to buy one of
those little guys for $60, JIC. http://tinyurl.com/qdvp8lt

Does anyone _like_ the smell of wood smoke in the house? Then
again,
having heat would be A Good Thing(tm), if the natural gas goes out.
I
wonder if they keep generators for the nat gas pumps, and how long
they'd last once the pumps quit, if not. Delivery pressure is
1.5psi,
so it may last a long while.

A properly installed and operated wood stove doesn't emit smoke into
the house, all leaks draw air in. I've learned how to set the draft
for complete combustion with little or no visible smoke from the
chimney.

I guess I'll have to remember to crank the draft wide open to load
firewood, but I've never seen a house yet whose wood stove didn't blow
smoke into it, regardless of settings. shrug


That wasn't easy. I have thermocouples on the basement stove with
readouts in the kitchen and bedroom and an outdoor mirror plus a night
vision camera to observe the chimney top. It's very convenient to know
when to tend the stove or the food cooking on it from upstairs.

Hah, that's cool! Self-surveilled. Are those remote t-coups?


These are cheap and good enough if you can't find (and fix) surplus
lab instruments as I did.
http://www.amazon.com/Durable-TM-902.../dp/B00EQ1WH9Q

I have a thermocouple available with my Mastech DVM.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as
predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)

Mine were NEVER good for 45 Watts. That was at the Maximum Power
Point of 17V while real-world power is at 12V. I think I saw 32W
from them once when they were new.

-jsw

I had to cut that posting short to go and listen to Lindsay Graham and
John McCain speak, then mingle with the audience. The Republicans at
least seem to like our NH style of face-to-face campaigning, rent a
hall and let anyone in to listen and ask questions, rather than the
big-money media circus of larger states. It becomes a good test of
mental endurance that weeds many out.

Bush, Graham and Kasich are experienced leaders with solid plans and
ideas, "policy wonks", any of which I'd be comfortable with as
President. I haven't had a chance to meet Carson, Cruz or Rubio yet,
and Jim Webb had to cancel.

Here's a list of the candidates.
http://www.politics1.com/p2016.htm
You say you want more choices???

-jsw

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:39:10 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:26:15 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

.........
Does anyone _like_ the smell of wood smoke in the house? Then
again,
having heat would be A Good Thing(tm), if the natural gas goes out.
I
wonder if they keep generators for the nat gas pumps, and how long
they'd last once the pumps quit, if not. Delivery pressure is
1.5psi,
so it may last a long while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressor_station
"A small portion of natural gas from the pipeline is burned to power
the turbine."

"Commonly known as "recips," these engines are fueled by natural gas
from the pipeline."

Bloody mahvelous!


I never investigated how reliable or susceptible to sabotage the gas
lines may be. Electricity on poles is demonstrably vulnerable but easy
to repair. Our ice storms and distracted drivers keep the crews in
practice.

Transformers are far too susceptible to sabotage, too, especially
"hidden" behind chain link fences.


My automatic backup is the house's original baseboard electric heat,
set to come on at 50F. I have these on the wall thermostat wires to
warn me if they turn on or I forget to set the bathroom back after
showering.

I ripped all those out in 2002, less than 2 weeks after I moved in
this house. CROM, those suck. 40F floor, 65F in the middle, and 90F
at your head when you stand up, all while sucking 4kWh per unit. The
96% efficient HVAC cost me $6k, but it blows the air around and keeps
everything mixed so the temp at the floor is the same at the ceiling,
more or less. I like to stand under the vent when I come in from
outside in the winter. How can you stand baseboard heat, especially
when it's not on PV to pay for it?


http://www.amazon.com/CR-Magnetics-R.../dp/B006K3O1MY
In an unlit hallway the LED is visible at a much lower current than
they list. There's no sharp 'turn-on point", they just get brighter as
the current increases.

I guess with -those- heaters, you can save money and buy the 1AAC
setpoint units for the least cost. And each probably shines bright
enough to light your whole house. g

I see that you're a fellow gadget freak.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:59:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as
predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)

Mine were NEVER good for 45 Watts. That was at the Maximum Power Point
of 17V while real-world power is at 12V. I think I saw 32W from them
once when they were new.

HUH? Y'mean to tell me that HF uses Searz Watts?

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:18:34 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:26:15 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
news On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:11:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
.................

Why didn't you leave the harness with the controller, duuuuude?

I put them with this temporarily wired meter.
http://www.amazon.com/6-5-100V-Displ.../dp/B013PKYILS

Picked up one of the little $13 AODE aluminum-cased wattmeters you
mentioned last time, thanks. It works well.

Don't trust the least significant digit of the Amps readout. Mine
actually resolves to 0.2A and fakes higher sensitivity by dithering
the raw value. The wires are too small for its full-scale Amp
capacity. Otherwise it's a very handy gadget for checking and
reconditioning older batteries.
http://www.artecing.com.uy/pdf/guias...uide_en_LR.pdf

I've found a DC resistance check while periodically topping off a
battery to be a good, quick indication of when it needs attention. I
haven't found a good Net reference to this yet, all descriptions of
battery impedance testing I've seen are from companies trying to
sell
fancy equipment for it, just like desulfation.

The Bayite meter is more suited to a fixed installation, with the
shunt in the battery cable and the readout at the control panel. I
added a DPDT switch to reverse the (fused) shunt sense leads so it
can
read either charge or discharge current. My inverter is an APC1400
UPS
which can draw over 50A continuously, probably too much for the
Aode's
wires.



Thinking about moving to a smaller water heater (20g) which can
be
heated with lower power elements fed directly from a 24v solar
array.
Hot water is nearly half my electric use, which now averages
$41/mo.

I heat water for laundry in kettles on the woodstove.

I can't stand wood heat, but may when the SHTF. Need to buy one
of
those little guys for $60, JIC. http://tinyurl.com/qdvp8lt

Does anyone _like_ the smell of wood smoke in the house? Then
again,
having heat would be A Good Thing(tm), if the natural gas goes
out.
I
wonder if they keep generators for the nat gas pumps, and how long
they'd last once the pumps quit, if not. Delivery pressure is
1.5psi,
so it may last a long while.

A properly installed and operated wood stove doesn't emit smoke into
the house, all leaks draw air in. I've learned how to set the draft
for complete combustion with little or no visible smoke from the
chimney.

I guess I'll have to remember to crank the draft wide open to load
firewood, but I've never seen a house yet whose wood stove didn't
blow
smoke into it, regardless of settings. shrug

I can't say my stove -never- smoulders, catches and backfires but it's
rare. Lighting it may be smoky until the cold draft down the chimney
reverses. Burning one sheet of crumpled newspaper in the upper chamber
is usually enough to get the air flowing up long enough to light the
kindling.

When the stove is up to temperature the draft vacuum runs between 0.08
and 0.15 inches of water, enough to make the air inlet whistle.
http://www.amazon.com/0-2-0-Magnehel.../dp/B008HQ4K9G

I can remove the cleanout cap in the inside flue pipe without
releasing smoke into the house.

That wasn't easy. I have thermocouples on the basement stove with
readouts in the kitchen and bedroom and an outdoor mirror plus a
night
vision camera to observe the chimney top. It's very convenient to
know
when to tend the stove or the food cooking on it from upstairs.

Hah, that's cool! Self-surveilled. Are those remote t-coups?

I found spools of cheaper thermocouple extension wire at the surplus
store and ran them from the stove in the basement to the kitchen and
bedroom.
http://www.awcwire.com/productspec.a...vc-single-pair
The X indicates extension wire which matches real thermocouple wire
only near room temperature.

The dollar a pound price for regular wire was better than a dollar a
foot for real thermocouple wire. Omega charges only a little more for
high-quality new wi
http://www.omega.com/pptst/XC_K_TC_WIRE.html

These panel jacks
http://www.omega.com/pptst/MPJ.html
snap into these wall outlet faceplates with only a little trimming
https://www.computercablestore.com/1...l-gang-white-3

These are cheap and good enough if you can't find (and fix) surplus
lab instruments as I did.
http://www.amazon.com/Durable-TM-902.../dp/B00EQ1WH9Q

I have a thermocouple available with my Mastech DVM.

If my Tekpower DVM is like it the cold compensation isn't exact and
the linearization is incorrect. The PC datalogging program corrects
the linearization and shows a difference from the meter's display. The
error is only a few degrees C. When I log the house's heating or
cooling rates I record a few temperature points and times from the lab
instruments for calibration correction. They read within 1 degree C at
freezing and boiling regardless of room temperature.

-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:59:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as
predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)

Mine were NEVER good for 45 Watts. That was at the Maximum Power
Point
of 17V while real-world power is at 12V. I think I saw 32W from them
once when they were new.

HUH? Y'mean to tell me that HF uses Searz Watts?

They may deliver that power into a large rheostat set to load them to
17V, but you won't get it from a 12V battery using the kit's PWM
controller.

Said large (300W) rheostat showed that my monocrystalline panels put
out nearly the same power at 18V, 17V and 16V, the current rising as
the voltage drops.

-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:59:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as
predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)

Mine were NEVER good for 45 Watts. That was at the Maximum Power
Point
of 17V while real-world power is at 12V. I think I saw 32W from
them
once when they were new.

HUH? Y'mean to tell me that HF uses Searz Watts?

They may deliver that power into a large rheostat set to load them
to 17V, but you won't get it from a 12V battery using the kit's PWM
controller.

Said large (300W) rheostat showed that my monocrystalline panels put
out nearly the same power at 18V, 17V and 16V, the current rising as
the voltage drops.

-jsw

I forgot to mention that I checked the HF panels too. The three
aluminum-framed ones from the kit I bought in 2011 and two newer
plastic-framed ones that have had very little sun exposure all
generated 0.5 to 0.6A at 17V, averaging around 9W each. Their reverse
leakage is only a few milliAmps at 17V, less than 1/10 that of the old
monocrystalline panels. Nevertheless I replaced the shorted blocking
diode in my HF controller so battery voltage and possibly high fault
current couldn't feed back onto the wires running out to the panels.

McCain on TV News: "You cannot buy a vote in New Hampshire, they have
to hear you."
He should know since his campaign went broke before he recovered and
won the nomination.

I generally like McCain but TV doesn't show his occasional "senior
moments".

-jsw

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:49:41 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

I guess I'll have to remember to crank the draft wide open to load
firewood, but I've never seen a house yet whose wood stove didn't
blow
smoke into it, regardless of settings. shrug

I can't say my stove -never- smoulders, catches and backfires but it's
rare. Lighting it may be smoky until the cold draft down the chimney
reverses. Burning one sheet of crumpled newspaper in the upper chamber
is usually enough to get the air flowing up long enough to light the
kindling.

I've always done the wadded paper at the chimney trick to get the
smoke drafted up that way from the start.


When the stove is up to temperature the draft vacuum runs between 0.08
and 0.15 inches of water, enough to make the air inlet whistle.
http://www.amazon.com/0-2-0-Magnehel.../dp/B008HQ4K9G

Har, he even measured it! g
(Yup, Gadgaholic) I guess my old automotive vacuum gauge won't cut it.


I can remove the cleanout cap in the inside flue pipe without
releasing smoke into the house.

That wasn't easy. I have thermocouples on the basement stove with
readouts in the kitchen and bedroom and an outdoor mirror plus a
night
vision camera to observe the chimney top. It's very convenient to
know
when to tend the stove or the food cooking on it from upstairs.

Hah, that's cool! Self-surveilled. Are those remote t-coups?

I found spools of cheaper thermocouple extension wire at the surplus
store and ran them from the stove in the basement to the kitchen and
bedroom.
http://www.awcwire.com/productspec.a...vc-single-pair
The X indicates extension wire which matches real thermocouple wire
only near room temperature.

Cool.


The dollar a pound price for regular wire was better than a dollar a
foot for real thermocouple wire.

For K t-coup wire?!? Seems way heavy.


These panel jacks
http://www.omega.com/pptst/MPJ.html
snap into these wall outlet faceplates with only a little trimming
https://www.computercablestore.com/1...l-gang-white-3

Ensuring a Kosher and clean setup.


These are cheap and good enough if you can't find (and fix) surplus
lab instruments as I did.
http://www.amazon.com/Durable-TM-902.../dp/B00EQ1WH9Q

http://tinyurl.com/ofygs9s $4.56 delivered.


I have a thermocouple available with my Mastech DVM.

If my Tekpower DVM is like it the cold compensation isn't exact and

I think Tekpower bought them, so they're probably nearly identical.


the linearization is incorrect. The PC datalogging program corrects
the linearization and shows a difference from the meter's display. The
error is only a few degrees C. When I log the house's heating or
cooling rates I record a few temperature points and times from the lab
instruments for calibration correction. They read within 1 degree C at
freezing and boiling regardless of room temperature.

If and when I get into datalogging (most of the new MPPT controllers
have that capability), I'll remember this.

Now that I'm retired, I have all sorts of projects lined up and ready
to go, and I'm gaining the time to get around to them. You're NOT
helping. vbg

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 4:49:43 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:


I've always done the wadded paper at the chimney trick to get the
smoke drafted up that way from the start.


My wood stove has an opening such that I can use a small propane torch to preheat the air in the chimney. So I do that and then close that opening and use the torch to light the kindling. I refill the 16 oz propane tanks from a 20 lb cylinder.

Dan

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:26:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as
predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)

Mine were NEVER good for 45 Watts. That was at the Maximum Power
Point of 17V while real-world power is at 12V. I think I saw 32W
from them once when they were new.

-jsw

I had to cut that posting short to go and listen to Lindsay Graham and
John McCain speak, then mingle with the audience. The Republicans at
least seem to like our NH style of face-to-face campaigning, rent a
hall and let anyone in to listen and ask questions, rather than the
big-money media circus of larger states. It becomes a good test of
mental endurance that weeds many out.

Sounds good to me.


Bush, Graham and Kasich are experienced leaders with solid plans and
ideas, "policy wonks", any of which I'd be comfortable with as
President. I haven't had a chance to meet Carson, Cruz or Rubio yet,
and Jim Webb had to cancel.

McCain's out: too religious/hawkish (strange companions) + other
things. He's not the man I thought he was when he first ran, so I
dumped him back then.

Carson's out: too religious and not nearly tough enough on illegals.
Rand wants illegals here? I like the man, but: Out!

Ditto Cruz on the latter. Jindal has now dropped out, and I'm waiting
for most of the above to drop, too. I'm waiting until they nominate
to see whether or not I'll have to write in my candidate of choice.
Not looking forward to it. Hell, if Perot were still eligible, he'd
get my nod in a nanosecond. Methinks that was our last chance to take
the road which didn't lead directly to Hell. deep sigh


Here's a list of the candidates.
http://www.politics1.com/p2016.htm
You say you want more choices???

No, I said I want --== REAL ==-- choices. sigh

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 01:15:40 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:59:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as
predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)

Mine were NEVER good for 45 Watts. That was at the Maximum Power
Point
of 17V while real-world power is at 12V. I think I saw 32W from them
once when they were new.

HUH? Y'mean to tell me that HF uses Searz Watts?

They may deliver that power into a large rheostat set to load them to
17V, but you won't get it from a 12V battery using the kit's PWM
controller.

Said large (300W) rheostat showed that my monocrystalline panels put
out nearly the same power at 18V, 17V and 16V, the current rising as
the voltage drops.

I'm OK with the original PWM ctrl on the HF array, but after reading
what MPPT can do with arrays wired at 24v or more, I definitely want
one for my larger array when I get it. I'm on the fence between a
Taiwanese brand and an Outback, either 60 or 80A models for the
possibility of additional panels in the coming years.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:32:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:59:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as
predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)

Mine were NEVER good for 45 Watts. That was at the Maximum Power
Point
of 17V while real-world power is at 12V. I think I saw 32W from
them
once when they were new.

HUH? Y'mean to tell me that HF uses Searz Watts?

They may deliver that power into a large rheostat set to load them
to 17V, but you won't get it from a 12V battery using the kit's PWM
controller.

Said large (300W) rheostat showed that my monocrystalline panels put
out nearly the same power at 18V, 17V and 16V, the current rising as
the voltage drops.

-jsw

I forgot to mention that I checked the HF panels too. The three
aluminum-framed ones from the kit I bought in 2011 and two newer
plastic-framed ones that have had very little sun exposure all
generated 0.5 to 0.6A at 17V, averaging around 9W each. Their reverse
leakage is only a few milliAmps at 17V, less than 1/10 that of the old
monocrystalline panels.

HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?


Nevertheless I replaced the shorted blocking
diode in my HF controller so battery voltage and possibly high fault
current couldn't feed back onto the wires running out to the panels.



McCain on TV News: "You cannot buy a vote in New Hampshire, they have
to hear you."
He should know since his campaign went broke before he recovered and
won the nomination.

I generally like McCain but TV doesn't show his occasional "senior
moments".

Nor his extreme hawk moments. He's too eager to get into ME wars.
I'd just as soon pull all our men out (stop the bleeding from our
Treasury) and send a few SEALS over some night to take out the bad
guys.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

wrote in message
...
On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 4:49:43 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I've always done the wadded paper at the chimney trick to get the
smoke drafted up that way from the start.


My wood stove has an opening such that I can use a small propane
torch to preheat the air in the chimney. So I do that and then
close that opening and use the torch to light the kindling. I refill
the 16 oz propane tanks from a 20 lb cylinder.

Dan

Has your refilled cylinder ever leaked?
-jsw

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 6:57:11 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:


Has your refilled cylinder ever leaked?
-jsw

I have bought a number of small propane torches at garage sales. So when I refill a tank, I put a torch on the tank. So no problem with leaks.

And I do not mess with the relief valve. To refill a cylinder, I put the cylinder in the freezer and refill after the cylinder is cold. If the tank is completely empty, I may have to cool it and refill it more than once. Best to do this when the cylinder is about 1/4 full. The steel tank does not have much thermal mass.

But to answer your question, yes I have had refilled cylinders leak.

Dan

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:32:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...........
McCain on TV News: "You cannot buy a vote in New Hampshire, they
have
to hear you."
He should know since his campaign went broke before he recovered and
won the nomination.

I generally like McCain but TV doesn't show his occasional "senior
moments".

Nor his extreme hawk moments. He's too eager to get into ME wars.
I'd just as soon pull all our men out (stop the bleeding from our
Treasury) and send a few SEALS over some night to take out the bad
guys.


The current estimate to destroy Daesh from a retired
military/scientific advisor and writer whose blog I follow is three
divisions and all our A-10s plus SEAD assets. A smaller force could do
it but would suffer higher casualties in a longer effort. Rooting them
out after firepower forces them to disperse will require a large
committment of infantry.

-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:32:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
...
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:59:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
news On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:33:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



The HF kit I bought in 2011 has degraded to about 1.7A, as
predicted.

Ouch! Is that 20-23W? (vs 45W)

Mine were NEVER good for 45 Watts. That was at the Maximum Power
Point
of 17V while real-world power is at 12V. I think I saw 32W from
them
once when they were new.

HUH? Y'mean to tell me that HF uses Searz Watts?

They may deliver that power into a large rheostat set to load them
to 17V, but you won't get it from a 12V battery using the kit's
PWM
controller.

Said large (300W) rheostat showed that my monocrystalline panels
put
out nearly the same power at 18V, 17V and 16V, the current rising
as
the voltage drops.

-jsw

I forgot to mention that I checked the HF panels too. The three
aluminum-framed ones from the kit I bought in 2011 and two newer
plastic-framed ones that have had very little sun exposure all
generated 0.5 to 0.6A at 17V, averaging around 9W each. Their
reverse
leakage is only a few milliAmps at 17V, less than 1/10 that of the
old
monocrystalline panels.

HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both bright sun
and low light or partial shade"

-jsw

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 6:57:11 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:


Has your refilled cylinder ever leaked?
-jsw

I have bought a number of small propane torches at garage sales. So
when I refill a tank, I put a torch on the tank. So no problem with
leaks.

And I do not mess with the relief valve. To refill a cylinder, I put
the cylinder in the freezer and refill after the cylinder is cold. If
the tank is completely empty, I may have to cool it and refill it more
than once. Best to do this when the cylinder is about 1/4 full. The
steel tank does not have much thermal mass.

But to answer your question, yes I have had refilled cylinders leak.

Dan
===============

I bought the adapter fitting and extension hose but haven't used them
yet. Now might be a good time since the weather is 50's during the day
and 20's at night. I could insulate the big tank with bubble wrap to
retain the day's heat and let it fill the small one outdoors
overnight.

-jsw

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:48:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:32:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...........
McCain on TV News: "You cannot buy a vote in New Hampshire, they
have
to hear you."
He should know since his campaign went broke before he recovered and
won the nomination.

I generally like McCain but TV doesn't show his occasional "senior
moments".

Nor his extreme hawk moments. He's too eager to get into ME wars.
I'd just as soon pull all our men out (stop the bleeding from our
Treasury) and send a few SEALS over some night to take out the bad
guys.


The current estimate to destroy Daesh from a retired
military/scientific advisor and writer whose blog I follow is three
divisions and all our A-10s plus SEAD assets. A smaller force could do
it but would suffer higher casualties in a longer effort. Rooting them
out after firepower forces them to disperse will require a large
committment of infantry.

Too bad he isn't in charge, eh?

What the brass doesn't seem to "get" is that there will be collateral
deaths of innocents during a "war". Dust 'em and get out. Far fewer
will die (on both sides) the quicker we do just that.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:48:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:32:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...........
McCain on TV News: "You cannot buy a vote in New Hampshire, they
have
to hear you."
He should know since his campaign went broke before he recovered
and
won the nomination.

I generally like McCain but TV doesn't show his occasional "senior
moments".

Nor his extreme hawk moments. He's too eager to get into ME wars.
I'd just as soon pull all our men out (stop the bleeding from our
Treasury) and send a few SEALS over some night to take out the bad
guys.


The current estimate to destroy Daesh from a retired
military/scientific advisor and writer whose blog I follow is three
divisions and all our A-10s plus SEAD assets. A smaller force could
do
it but would suffer higher casualties in a longer effort. Rooting
them
out after firepower forces them to disperse will require a large
committment of infantry.

Too bad he isn't in charge, eh?

What the brass doesn't seem to "get" is that there will be
collateral
deaths of innocents during a "war". Dust 'em and get out. Far fewer
will die (on both sides) the quicker we do just that.

This was his boss, who should have been in charge:
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/02/ob...y-affairs.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Thomas_Possony

-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:48:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:32:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...........
McCain on TV News: "You cannot buy a vote in New Hampshire, they
have
to hear you."
He should know since his campaign went broke before he recovered
and
won the nomination.

I generally like McCain but TV doesn't show his occasional "senior
moments".

Nor his extreme hawk moments. He's too eager to get into ME wars.
I'd just as soon pull all our men out (stop the bleeding from our
Treasury) and send a few SEALS over some night to take out the bad
guys.


The current estimate to destroy Daesh from a retired
military/scientific advisor and writer whose blog I follow is three
divisions and all our A-10s plus SEAD assets. A smaller force could
do
it but would suffer higher casualties in a longer effort. Rooting
them
out after firepower forces them to disperse will require a large
committment of infantry.

Too bad he isn't in charge, eh?

What the brass doesn't seem to "get" is that there will be
collateral
deaths of innocents during a "war". Dust 'em and get out. Far fewer
will die (on both sides) the quicker we do just that.

They do get it, and it cripples them into inaction.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-massacre-1995
BTW, we still have troops the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

Our planes can't attack ISIS oil tankers because their drivers -might-
be innocent civilians.

"Good" people do nothing wrong. It doesn't matter if they also do
nothing right, even when in command. How often do news helicopters
rescue crash victims?

I found two incidents:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/wfor-cbs...escue-victims/
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/news-h...ims-in-/nJgs6/

-jsw

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:20:52 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:48:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
The current estimate to destroy Daesh from a retired
military/scientific advisor and writer whose blog I follow is three
divisions and all our A-10s plus SEAD assets. A smaller force could
do
it but would suffer higher casualties in a longer effort. Rooting
them
out after firepower forces them to disperse will require a large
committment of infantry.

Too bad he isn't in charge, eh?

I like the guy. Good article about this in the Defense Journal.


What the brass doesn't seem to "get" is that there will be
collateral
deaths of innocents during a "war". Dust 'em and get out. Far fewer
will die (on both sides) the quicker we do just that.

This was his boss, who should have been in charge:
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/02/ob...y-affairs.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Thomas_Possony

WOW, talk about opposite positions in articles. Those 2 don't sound
like they're referring to the same guy.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both bright sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both bright sun
and low light or partial shade"

I went out and added a battery to the array and hooked up the
inverter. It runs the electric chainsaw just fine, thankfully.
It's all boxed back up for the winter now.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both bright sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp






--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8
Microchip link for 2015 Masters in Phoenix: http://tinyurl.com/l7g2k48

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the
difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both bright
sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp

Do you expect ad copy writers to understand chemistry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_silicon

Perhaps they are "nanocrystalline." Even glass and rubber may have
localized crystalline structure.

-jsw

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:43:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
m...
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the
difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both bright
sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp

Do you expect ad copy writers to understand chemistry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_silicon

Perhaps they are "nanocrystalline." Even glass and rubber may have
localized crystalline structure.

-jsw


Amorphous silicon is not nanocrystalline, or any other crystalline.
It's a non-crystalline allotrope of silicon.

An old friend of mine was working on amorphous silicon solar cells at
Harvard back in the '80s. They never achieved the efficiency that was
hoped for, but there are some thin-film amorphous silicon cells
around, or there were.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:43:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in
message
. ..
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
om...
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the
difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both bright
sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp

Do you expect ad copy writers to understand chemistry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_silicon

Perhaps they are "nanocrystalline." Even glass and rubber may have
localized crystalline structure.

-jsw


Amorphous silicon is not nanocrystalline, or any other crystalline.
It's a non-crystalline allotrope of silicon.

An old friend of mine was working on amorphous silicon solar cells
at
Harvard back in the '80s. They never achieved the efficiency that
was
hoped for, but there are some thin-film amorphous silicon cells
around, or there were.

--
Ed Huntress

A regular crystalline structure has a lower energy and will form
spontaneously to the extent allowed by processing conditions which are
likely proprietary secrets.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip....1063/1.342851

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_solid
"Even amorphous materials have some shortrange order at the atomic
length scale due to the nature of chemical bonding .... Even the most
advanced structural characterization techniques, such as x-ray
diffraction and transmission electron microscopy, have difficulty in
distinguishing between amorphous and crystalline structures on these
length scales."

I meant the uneducated ad copy writer at Harbor Freight.

-jsw

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 11:30:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:43:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in
message
...
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
news:v6f25b5larlptee39mi7i7mvothd7i49jb@4ax. com...
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the
difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both bright
sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp

Do you expect ad copy writers to understand chemistry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_silicon

Perhaps they are "nanocrystalline." Even glass and rubber may have
localized crystalline structure.

-jsw


Amorphous silicon is not nanocrystalline, or any other crystalline.
It's a non-crystalline allotrope of silicon.

An old friend of mine was working on amorphous silicon solar cells
at
Harvard back in the '80s. They never achieved the efficiency that
was
hoped for, but there are some thin-film amorphous silicon cells
around, or there were.

--
Ed Huntress

A regular crystalline structure has a lower energy and will form
spontaneously to the extent allowed by processing conditions which are
likely proprietary secrets.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip....1063/1.342851

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_solid
"Even amorphous materials have some shortrange order at the atomic
length scale due to the nature of chemical bonding .... Even the most
advanced structural characterization techniques, such as x-ray
diffraction and transmission electron microscopy, have difficulty in
distinguishing between amorphous and crystalline structures on these
length scales."

I meant the uneducated ad copy writer at Harbor Freight.

-jsw


The silicon used in thin-film cells typically is doped, or nucleated
with hydrogen. These typically wind up being nanocrystalline materials
as they're applied to a specific task.

But as-deposited amorphous silicon has no detectable cystal structure,
at any scale. The standard diffraction method for detecting amorphous
materials may be ambiguous at nanoscales, but there is no *positive*
indicator for crystal structure in pure amorpous silicon.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 11:30:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:43:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in
message
m...
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
news:v6f25b5larlptee39mi7i7mvothd7i49jb@4ax .com...
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the
difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both
bright
sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp

Do you expect ad copy writers to understand chemistry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_silicon

Perhaps they are "nanocrystalline." Even glass and rubber may have
localized crystalline structure.

-jsw


Amorphous silicon is not nanocrystalline, or any other
crystalline.
It's a non-crystalline allotrope of silicon.

An old friend of mine was working on amorphous silicon solar cells
at
Harvard back in the '80s. They never achieved the efficiency that
was
hoped for, but there are some thin-film amorphous silicon cells
around, or there were.

--
Ed Huntress

A regular crystalline structure has a lower energy and will form
spontaneously to the extent allowed by processing conditions which
are
likely proprietary secrets.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip....1063/1.342851

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_solid
"Even amorphous materials have some shortrange order at the atomic
length scale due to the nature of chemical bonding .... Even the
most
advanced structural characterization techniques, such as x-ray
diffraction and transmission electron microscopy, have difficulty in
distinguishing between amorphous and crystalline structures on these
length scales."

I meant the uneducated ad copy writer at Harbor Freight.

-jsw


The silicon used in thin-film cells typically is doped, or nucleated
with hydrogen. These typically wind up being nanocrystalline
materials
as they're applied to a specific task.

But as-deposited amorphous silicon has no detectable cystal
structure,
at any scale. The standard diffraction method for detecting
amorphous
materials may be ambiguous at nanoscales, but there is no *positive*
indicator for crystal structure in pure amorpous silicon.

--
Ed Huntress

This disagrees:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...68583X11006628
"By high resolution transmission electron microscopy (HRTEM) it was
found that the average size of crystals in samples deposited in that
way were similar, about 8-9 nm, whereas crystal size distributions
were generally broad and varied for different samples."

The crystalline structure may simply have been undetectable with your
friend's equipment back in the 1980's.

In the 60's the analysis of crystals by X-Ray diffraction needed a
dedicated round room with film or detectors at precisely positionable
locations on the walls. Constructive interference from the regularly
spaced atoms in crystal structures focuses the X-rays into spots on
the wall like a prism. Amorphous material just creates diffuse fog.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_crystallography

-jsw

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 9:41:50 AM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:



An old friend of mine was working on amorphous silicon solar cells at
Harvard back in the '80s. They never achieved the efficiency that was
hoped for, but there are some thin-film amorphous silicon cells
around, or there were.

--
Ed Huntress

I think there are still amorphous solar cells around. The solar cells in calculators were pretty much all amorphous cells. Cheap, not too efficient, but adequate for calculators.

Dan

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 11:12:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 9:41:50 AM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:



An old friend of mine was working on amorphous silicon solar cells at
Harvard back in the '80s. They never achieved the efficiency that was
hoped for, but there are some thin-film amorphous silicon cells
around, or there were.

--
Ed Huntress

I think there are still amorphous solar cells around. The solar cells in calculators were pretty much all amorphous cells. Cheap, not too efficient, but adequate for calculators.

Dan

Yes, looking around, I see that's one place where they're still used.
There also are a variety of experimental multi-layer thin-film cells
that contain a layer of amorphous silicon, and which have much higher
efficiency. Sony has made some, and there is a large installation of
them at an agriculture station somewhere in NJ.

The problem Sony had with theirs, initially, was relatively short
life. I don't know if that's still the case.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:08:10 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 11:30:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:43:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in
message
om...
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
news:v6f25b5larlptee39mi7i7mvothd7i49jb@4a x.com...
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the
difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both
bright
sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp

Do you expect ad copy writers to understand chemistry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_silicon

Perhaps they are "nanocrystalline." Even glass and rubber may have
localized crystalline structure.

-jsw


Amorphous silicon is not nanocrystalline, or any other
crystalline.
It's a non-crystalline allotrope of silicon.

An old friend of mine was working on amorphous silicon solar cells
at
Harvard back in the '80s. They never achieved the efficiency that
was
hoped for, but there are some thin-film amorphous silicon cells
around, or there were.

--
Ed Huntress

A regular crystalline structure has a lower energy and will form
spontaneously to the extent allowed by processing conditions which
are
likely proprietary secrets.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip....1063/1.342851

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_solid
"Even amorphous materials have some shortrange order at the atomic
length scale due to the nature of chemical bonding .... Even the
most
advanced structural characterization techniques, such as x-ray
diffraction and transmission electron microscopy, have difficulty in
distinguishing between amorphous and crystalline structures on these
length scales."

I meant the uneducated ad copy writer at Harbor Freight.

-jsw


The silicon used in thin-film cells typically is doped, or nucleated
with hydrogen. These typically wind up being nanocrystalline
materials
as they're applied to a specific task.

But as-deposited amorphous silicon has no detectable cystal
structure,
at any scale. The standard diffraction method for detecting
amorphous
materials may be ambiguous at nanoscales, but there is no *positive*
indicator for crystal structure in pure amorpous silicon.

--
Ed Huntress

This disagrees:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...68583X11006628
"By high resolution transmission electron microscopy (HRTEM) it was
found that the average size of crystals in samples deposited in that
way were similar, about 8-9 nm, whereas crystal size distributions
were generally broad and varied for different samples."

The crystalline structure may simply have been undetectable with your
friend's equipment back in the 1980's.

In the 60's the analysis of crystals by X-Ray diffraction needed a
dedicated round room with film or detectors at precisely positionable
locations on the walls. Constructive interference from the regularly
spaced atoms in crystal structures focuses the X-rays into spots on
the wall like a prism. Amorphous material just creates diffuse fog.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_crystallography

-jsw


Ok, I'm certainly not up-to-date on them (or on much else g), so
I'll defer.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:19:25 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:08:10 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 11:30:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
m...
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:43:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in
message
news:tr855b1higl5r1acjadpftal7kdh9bjcnh@4ax. com...
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
news:v6f25b5larlptee39mi7i7mvothd7i49jb@4 ax.com...
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the
difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both
bright
sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp

Do you expect ad copy writers to understand chemistry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_silicon

Perhaps they are "nanocrystalline." Even glass and rubber may have
localized crystalline structure.

-jsw


Amorphous silicon is not nanocrystalline, or any other
crystalline.
It's a non-crystalline allotrope of silicon.

An old friend of mine was working on amorphous silicon solar cells
at
Harvard back in the '80s. They never achieved the efficiency that
was
hoped for, but there are some thin-film amorphous silicon cells
around, or there were.

--
Ed Huntress

A regular crystalline structure has a lower energy and will form
spontaneously to the extent allowed by processing conditions which
are
likely proprietary secrets.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip....1063/1.342851

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_solid
"Even amorphous materials have some shortrange order at the atomic
length scale due to the nature of chemical bonding .... Even the
most
advanced structural characterization techniques, such as x-ray
diffraction and transmission electron microscopy, have difficulty in
distinguishing between amorphous and crystalline structures on these
length scales."

I meant the uneducated ad copy writer at Harbor Freight.

-jsw


The silicon used in thin-film cells typically is doped, or nucleated
with hydrogen. These typically wind up being nanocrystalline
materials
as they're applied to a specific task.

But as-deposited amorphous silicon has no detectable cystal
structure,
at any scale. The standard diffraction method for detecting
amorphous
materials may be ambiguous at nanoscales, but there is no *positive*
indicator for crystal structure in pure amorpous silicon.

--
Ed Huntress

This disagrees:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...68583X11006628
"By high resolution transmission electron microscopy (HRTEM) it was
found that the average size of crystals in samples deposited in that
way were similar, about 8-9 nm, whereas crystal size distributions
were generally broad and varied for different samples."

The crystalline structure may simply have been undetectable with your
friend's equipment back in the 1980's.

In the 60's the analysis of crystals by X-Ray diffraction needed a
dedicated round room with film or detectors at precisely positionable
locations on the walls. Constructive interference from the regularly
spaced atoms in crystal structures focuses the X-rays into spots on
the wall like a prism. Amorphous material just creates diffuse fog.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_crystallography

-jsw


Ok, I'm certainly not up-to-date on them (or on much else g), so
I'll defer.

WAIT a minute. That paper is about hydrogen-doped
amorphous/nanocrystalline silicon. It's been known for decades that
doping with hydrogen causes amorphous silicon to adopt a
nanocrystalline structure.

If that's the evidence, then I think the jury is still out on pure
amorphous silicon.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:19:25 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:08:10 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 11:30:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
om...
On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:43:02 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in
message
news:tr855b1higl5r1acjadpftal7kdh9bjcnh@4ax .com...
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
news:v6f25b5larlptee39mi7i7mvothd7i49jb@ 4ax.com...
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the
difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both
bright
sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they
mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp

Do you expect ad copy writers to understand chemistry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_silicon

Perhaps they are "nanocrystalline." Even glass and rubber may
have
localized crystalline structure.

-jsw


Amorphous silicon is not nanocrystalline, or any other
crystalline.
It's a non-crystalline allotrope of silicon.

An old friend of mine was working on amorphous silicon solar
cells
at
Harvard back in the '80s. They never achieved the efficiency
that
was
hoped for, but there are some thin-film amorphous silicon cells
around, or there were.

--
Ed Huntress

A regular crystalline structure has a lower energy and will form
spontaneously to the extent allowed by processing conditions
which
are
likely proprietary secrets.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip....1063/1.342851

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_solid
"Even amorphous materials have some shortrange order at the
atomic
length scale due to the nature of chemical bonding .... Even the
most
advanced structural characterization techniques, such as x-ray
diffraction and transmission electron microscopy, have difficulty
in
distinguishing between amorphous and crystalline structures on
these
length scales."

I meant the uneducated ad copy writer at Harbor Freight.

-jsw


The silicon used in thin-film cells typically is doped, or
nucleated
with hydrogen. These typically wind up being nanocrystalline
materials
as they're applied to a specific task.

But as-deposited amorphous silicon has no detectable cystal
structure,
at any scale. The standard diffraction method for detecting
amorphous
materials may be ambiguous at nanoscales, but there is no
*positive*
indicator for crystal structure in pure amorpous silicon.

--
Ed Huntress

This disagrees:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...68583X11006628
"By high resolution transmission electron microscopy (HRTEM) it was
found that the average size of crystals in samples deposited in
that
way were similar, about 8-9 nm, whereas crystal size distributions
were generally broad and varied for different samples."

The crystalline structure may simply have been undetectable with
your
friend's equipment back in the 1980's.

In the 60's the analysis of crystals by X-Ray diffraction needed a
dedicated round room with film or detectors at precisely
positionable
locations on the walls. Constructive interference from the
regularly
spaced atoms in crystal structures focuses the X-rays into spots on
the wall like a prism. Amorphous material just creates diffuse fog.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_crystallography

-jsw


Ok, I'm certainly not up-to-date on them (or on much else g), so
I'll defer.

WAIT a minute. That paper is about hydrogen-doped
amorphous/nanocrystalline silicon. It's been known for decades that
doping with hydrogen causes amorphous silicon to adopt a
nanocrystalline structure.

If that's the evidence, then I think the jury is still out on pure
amorphous silicon.

--
Ed Huntress

Yep, there are many observations we can't explain because we can't yet
measure well enough at the atomic level, especislly below the surface.

That's why I objected to your blanket statement that amorphous silicon
has no nanocrystals, in practical mass production versus by
theoretical definition. I suspect the solar panel makers don't waste
the time and money to check for them, and I once built semiconductor
automatic test equipment for Teradyne and was a lab tech at Unitrode.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staebl...Wronski_effect
My amorphous Harbor Freight panels will barely reach 0.6A instead of
the 0.86A they are rated for. When I bought them I didn't have the
test equipment to measure their maximum power point so I don't know if
they met spec even then. No one offered a better kit at a local store.

The surplus monocrystalline panels have degraded in reverse leakage
current but not output. At noon they were pushing 85W into the battery
according to the power meter.

-jsw

No crystal shape but a crystal. Likely a translation from xxxx to English.

And missed.

Some experimentalist make it out of plastic and other materials.

Martin

On 11/22/2015 11:27 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 18:17:29 -0800, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:31:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
HF monocrystallines, or the new used panels?

The HF panels are amorphous. I assumed that you knew the difference.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt...nel-96418.html
"Amorphous crystal panel for superior performance in both bright sun
and low light or partial shade"

NON-crystalline silicon? No, I hadn't noticed that.

Wth is an "amorphous crystal"? They're opposites. Do they mean
*poly*crystalline, perhaps?


--sp