On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:50:17 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 4:29:12 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:

You might consider machining a bronze bushing for a temporary solution. A bushing ought to last a reasonable amount of time.

Dan

Oilite or just regular bronze? Aluminum or phosphate bronze? Slicon
or "pure" bronze?

(Grin)

What I want to know is who is going to cut a hole in the floorboards
and sit over the bronze-bushed joint with an oilcan. g

--
Ed Huntress

I do not think that would be a big problem. If the two shafts are in line, there is no motion and in normal automotive use , I expect there is not much motion. Normal life for needle bearings is probably over 100,000 miles. For a bronze bushing, I would guess it would last about 10,000 miles, more if there is a grease fitting. I doubt it any modern car has a grease fitting on the universal joint, but a 48 Pontiac ? At one time the cars came with U joints without grease fittings. But the replacement parts had grease fittings.

As for the material type, I would use what I had on hand. It is a temporary fix for a daughter. Sometimes getting to work is important. If it is a restoration and there is no need to drive it while waiting for the right part, then wait until you have the right part.

Dan

One of the reasons that a drive line contains "universal" joints is
because the wheels go up and down :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:29:57 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:24:44 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:29:08 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:10:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:54:55 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 10:07:26 AM UTC-4, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Thanks everyone! Found the Moog 508 at the local O'Reilly. Will pick up this am.

Ivan Vegvary

Obviously too late to help you, but if this comes up in the future...............

You might consider machining a bronze bushing for a temporary solution. A bushing ought to last a reasonable amount of time.

Dan

Oilite or just regular bronze? Aluminum or phosphate bronze? Slicon
or "pure" bronze?

(Grin)

What I want to know is who is going to cut a hole in the floorboards
and sit over the bronze-bushed joint with an oilcan. g
Sounds kinda "cuban" to me. Mabee something that would have been
done in the East Germany of old too.

Well, there was the old inline-four Indian motorcycle from the '30s,
too. It had no oil pump and no splash. You pulled (or pushed, I
forget) a handle on an oil pump. No kidding. You had to do it a lot.
g

Actually it wasn't only the Indian 4, it was all Indians of that era
and Harley-Davidson too :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 07:38:55 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:29:57 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:24:44 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:29:08 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:10:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:54:55 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 10:07:26 AM UTC-4, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Thanks everyone! Found the Moog 508 at the local O'Reilly. Will pick up this am.

Ivan Vegvary

Obviously too late to help you, but if this comes up in the future...............

You might consider machining a bronze bushing for a temporary solution. A bushing ought to last a reasonable amount of time.

Dan

Oilite or just regular bronze? Aluminum or phosphate bronze? Slicon
or "pure" bronze?

(Grin)

What I want to know is who is going to cut a hole in the floorboards
and sit over the bronze-bushed joint with an oilcan. g
Sounds kinda "cuban" to me. Mabee something that would have been
done in the East Germany of old too.

Well, there was the old inline-four Indian motorcycle from the '30s,
too. It had no oil pump and no splash. You pulled (or pushed, I
forget) a handle on an oil pump. No kidding. You had to do it a lot.
g

Actually it wasn't only the Indian 4, it was all Indians of that era
and Harley-Davidson too :-)

The only one I ever saw, and could confirm, was the Indian I saw in
New Hope, PA around 1972. I had a long conversation with the owner,
who showed me how the thing worked. You really had to be determined to
ride those bikes.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2015-03-11, Ed Huntress wrote:
On 11 Mar 2015 02:25:28 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-10, dpb wrote:
On 03/10/2015 9:04 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

snip


Well, as suggested, there's always the drill stem in virtually any
diameter you want/need to fabricate some

Beware! (Modern drill shanks are not hardened -- they are mild
steel. The flutes and tip are HSS and there is a pretty much invisible
weld between the flutes and the shank.

To test this -- take a file to the shank first, then try the
flutes. You will see the difference rather quickly. :-)

I have not heard of this. Maybe it's something the Chinese are doing.

Standard American jobber bits (like Cleveland) are made of a solid
piece of high-speed steel. The shank is annealed to prevent dangerous
breaks. Shanks on some brands of jobber bits are around 0.002" under
the nominal diameter, and generally are not precision-ground.

Are you sure you aren't looking at the end of a coating, rather than a
weld? There are several different coatings in use on quality drill
bits.

I don't *see* the weld (I said "pretty much invisible"), but the
shanks of normal HSS drill bits made in the USA are *way* too soft to be
annealed HSS. I don't *use* drills from China. I'm just judging by how
soft the shanks are. Whenever you spin a bit in a chuck, you will see
ridges and grooves dragged around the shank.

If HSS can really be annealed *that* soft, I'll take your word
for it, but I thought that even annealed HSS was not nearly that soft.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:07:18 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
wrote:

Thanks everyone! Found the Moog 508 at the local O'Reilly. Will pick up this am.
Meanwhile, drillrod (5/64") already ordered from MC. $2.84 plus $12 shipping. Too late to cancel.

You could always make a custom hatpin from that drillrod.

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo

On 12 Mar 2015 03:24:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-11, Ed Huntress wrote:
On 11 Mar 2015 02:25:28 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-10, dpb wrote:
On 03/10/2015 9:04 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

snip


Well, as suggested, there's always the drill stem in virtually any
diameter you want/need to fabricate some

Beware! (Modern drill shanks are not hardened -- they are mild
steel. The flutes and tip are HSS and there is a pretty much invisible
weld between the flutes and the shank.

To test this -- take a file to the shank first, then try the
flutes. You will see the difference rather quickly. :-)

I have not heard of this. Maybe it's something the Chinese are doing.

Standard American jobber bits (like Cleveland) are made of a solid
piece of high-speed steel. The shank is annealed to prevent dangerous
breaks. Shanks on some brands of jobber bits are around 0.002" under
the nominal diameter, and generally are not precision-ground.

Are you sure you aren't looking at the end of a coating, rather than a
weld? There are several different coatings in use on quality drill
bits.

I don't *see* the weld (I said "pretty much invisible"), but the
shanks of normal HSS drill bits made in the USA are *way* too soft to be
annealed HSS.

Annealed M2 is around 220 - 240 Brinell. That's just convertible to
Rockwell C, value of 20.

That's pretty soft steel, Don. Hot-rolled 1018 or 1020 is somewhere in
the neighborhood of 130 Brinell. But cold-rolled is quite a bit
harder.

I don't *use* drills from China. I'm just judging by how
soft the shanks are. Whenever you spin a bit in a chuck, you will see
ridges and grooves dragged around the shank.

Sure. I have more than a few that are decorated like that. g And you
can bend the shanks in a vise.


If HSS can really be annealed *that* soft, I'll take your word
for it, but I thought that even annealed HSS was not nearly that soft.

We seldom see real annealed HSS, because it takes a long temperature
ramp-down from 1600 F to anneal it all the way. Like 24 hours or so. I
don't know how close you can get with a quick heat-and-cool cycle;
maybe it's not far off of the full-anneal value.

It's normally only sold in the annealed condition to the cutting tool
manufacturers. I don't know how the twist drill companies do it after
hardening the drill bits, nor just how soft they're able to get it.

But I do know, from my days as tooling editor at Machining Magazine,
that those shanks are annealed, and that the steel is all in one
piece, all of the same material. Or it was. They typically grind the
shanks in a centerless grinder, and they're fed into a fixture, since
they can't be through-fed. That limits the accuracy of the grinding.

I haven't been involved with these questions for 15 years, so, as with
most things, I may be out of date. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Enjoy,
DoN.

I think I would have gone to real drill rod - center ground and HSS at
least. I've bought some for an model engine I was building. Nicer
finish and strength than making my own...

But the real part is best. Hate to have one blow up and weld on you or
fall apart because of a hand made part not fitting at speed.

Martin

On 3/11/2015 9:07 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Thanks everyone! Found the Moog 508 at the local O'Reilly. Will pick up this am.
Meanwhile, drillrod (5/64") already ordered from MC. $2.84 plus $12 shipping. Too late to cancel.
Ivan Vegvary

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 20:54:48 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 07:38:55 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:29:57 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:24:44 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:29:08 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:10:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:54:55 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 10:07:26 AM UTC-4, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Thanks everyone! Found the Moog 508 at the local O'Reilly. Will pick up this am.

Ivan Vegvary

Obviously too late to help you, but if this comes up in the future...............

You might consider machining a bronze bushing for a temporary solution. A bushing ought to last a reasonable amount of time.

Dan

Oilite or just regular bronze? Aluminum or phosphate bronze? Slicon
or "pure" bronze?

(Grin)

What I want to know is who is going to cut a hole in the floorboards
and sit over the bronze-bushed joint with an oilcan. g
Sounds kinda "cuban" to me. Mabee something that would have been
done in the East Germany of old too.

Well, there was the old inline-four Indian motorcycle from the '30s,
too. It had no oil pump and no splash. You pulled (or pushed, I
forget) a handle on an oil pump. No kidding. You had to do it a lot.
g

Actually it wasn't only the Indian 4, it was all Indians of that era
and Harley-Davidson too :-)

The only one I ever saw, and could confirm, was the Indian I saw in
New Hope, PA around 1972. I had a long conversation with the owner,
who showed me how the thing worked. You really had to be determined to
ride those bikes.

When I was 15 years old I owned an Indian 101 Scout. I don't remember
what my father paid for it but it wasn't running when we bought it and
was cheap. I worked on it for a year or more. I think it may have run
(for moments) once or twice :-)

In retrospect I think it probably had a very weak magneto and I could
have converted it to battery ignition easily. But alas, I was a very
beginning mechanic in those days :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2015-03-12, Ed Huntress wrote:
On 12 Mar 2015 03:24:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-11, Ed Huntress wrote:
On 11 Mar 2015 02:25:28 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-10, dpb wrote:
On 03/10/2015 9:04 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

[ ... ]

I don't *see* the weld (I said "pretty much invisible"), but the
shanks of normal HSS drill bits made in the USA are *way* too soft to be
annealed HSS.

Annealed M2 is around 220 - 240 Brinell. That's just convertible to
Rockwell C, value of 20.

O.K. Pretty soft.

That's pretty soft steel, Don. Hot-rolled 1018 or 1020 is somewhere in
the neighborhood of 130 Brinell. But cold-rolled is quite a bit
harder.

O.K.

I don't *use* drills from China. I'm just judging by how
soft the shanks are. Whenever you spin a bit in a chuck, you will see
ridges and grooves dragged around the shank.

Sure. I have more than a few that are decorated like that. g And you
can bend the shanks in a vise.

Yes. Or turn the shank down to make a small Silver & Demming
drill at need. :-)

If HSS can really be annealed *that* soft, I'll take your word
for it, but I thought that even annealed HSS was not nearly that soft.

We seldom see real annealed HSS, because it takes a long temperature
ramp-down from 1600 F to anneal it all the way. Like 24 hours or so. I
don't know how close you can get with a quick heat-and-cool cycle;
maybe it's not far off of the full-anneal value.

Or -- perhaps the hardening is done by induction heating
allowing the shank to remain soft.

It's normally only sold in the annealed condition to the cutting tool
manufacturers. I don't know how the twist drill companies do it after
hardening the drill bits, nor just how soft they're able to get it.

Or -- perhaps retain the shank in the annealed state. It seems
to me that the extra work of annealing the shank after the drill is
hardened is an added expense.

But I do know, from my days as tooling editor at Machining Magazine,
that those shanks are annealed, and that the steel is all in one
piece, all of the same material. Or it was. They typically grind the
shanks in a centerless grinder, and they're fed into a fixture, since
they can't be through-fed. That limits the accuracy of the grinding.

O.K.

I haven't been involved with these questions for 15 years, so, as with
most things, I may be out of date. d8-)

Still -- more information than I have.

But still -- my original advice to not use drill shanks as
needle rollers stands. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I bought from these grinding companies.

http://www.cencogrinding.com/drillblanks.html

This place has high quality center ground drill blanks.
It comes annealed so it can be ground into real HSS drills.
Quote:

"From start to finish 100% American made.

We specialize in high speed steel drill blanks of all sizes from .005"
to 3.500" in diameter with a .0002 tolerance and lengths up to 60".

M-2 has a rockwell of 62-64.

M-42 has a rockwell of 65-67.

Drill Blanks are also known as core pins, punches, dowels, reamers,
gages, mandrels, pinions, and guide pins.

All of the above can be produced from a variety of materials and
hardnesses. "

This is where they sell them :

http://www.drillblanks.com/

And have a more updated web. The high quality Labrobe (or such
spelling) got theirs here - and may still do.
http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Latrob.../dp/B000LDIR5Q


Martin

On 3/11/2015 11:22 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On 12 Mar 2015 03:24:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-11, Ed Huntress wrote:
On 11 Mar 2015 02:25:28 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-10, dpb wrote:
On 03/10/2015 9:04 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

snip


Well, as suggested, there's always the drill stem in virtually any
diameter you want/need to fabricate some

Beware! (Modern drill shanks are not hardened -- they are mild
steel. The flutes and tip are HSS and there is a pretty much invisible
weld between the flutes and the shank.

To test this -- take a file to the shank first, then try the
flutes. You will see the difference rather quickly. :-)

I have not heard of this. Maybe it's something the Chinese are doing.

Standard American jobber bits (like Cleveland) are made of a solid
piece of high-speed steel. The shank is annealed to prevent dangerous
breaks. Shanks on some brands of jobber bits are around 0.002" under
the nominal diameter, and generally are not precision-ground.

Are you sure you aren't looking at the end of a coating, rather than a
weld? There are several different coatings in use on quality drill
bits.

I don't *see* the weld (I said "pretty much invisible"), but the
shanks of normal HSS drill bits made in the USA are *way* too soft to be
annealed HSS.

Annealed M2 is around 220 - 240 Brinell. That's just convertible to
Rockwell C, value of 20.

That's pretty soft steel, Don. Hot-rolled 1018 or 1020 is somewhere in
the neighborhood of 130 Brinell. But cold-rolled is quite a bit
harder.

I don't *use* drills from China. I'm just judging by how
soft the shanks are. Whenever you spin a bit in a chuck, you will see
ridges and grooves dragged around the shank.

Sure. I have more than a few that are decorated like that. g And you
can bend the shanks in a vise.


If HSS can really be annealed *that* soft, I'll take your word
for it, but I thought that even annealed HSS was not nearly that soft.

We seldom see real annealed HSS, because it takes a long temperature
ramp-down from 1600 F to anneal it all the way. Like 24 hours or so. I
don't know how close you can get with a quick heat-and-cool cycle;
maybe it's not far off of the full-anneal value.

It's normally only sold in the annealed condition to the cutting tool
manufacturers. I don't know how the twist drill companies do it after
hardening the drill bits, nor just how soft they're able to get it.

But I do know, from my days as tooling editor at Machining Magazine,
that those shanks are annealed, and that the steel is all in one
piece, all of the same material. Or it was. They typically grind the
shanks in a centerless grinder, and they're fed into a fixture, since
they can't be through-fed. That limits the accuracy of the grinding.

I haven't been involved with these questions for 15 years, so, as with
most things, I may be out of date. d8-)

On 03/10/2015 9:25 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2015-03-10, wrote:
....

Well, as suggested, there's always the drill stem in virtually any
diameter you want/need to fabricate some

Beware! (Modern drill shanks are not hardened -- they are mild
steel. ....


The suggested drill rod from McM-Carr is hardened tool steel and are
solid rod full length...not _quite_ what a real case-hardened bearing
roller would be probably, but will make a serviceable roller I have no
doubt.


The M42 "ultra-hard" is Rockwell C66 per their datasheet...

--

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 23:08:30 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

I bought from these grinding companies.

http://www.cencogrinding.com/drillblanks.html

This place has high quality center ground drill blanks.
It comes annealed so it can be ground into real HSS drills.
Quote:

"From start to finish 100% American made.

We specialize in high speed steel drill blanks of all sizes from .005"
to 3.500" in diameter with a .0002 tolerance and lengths up to 60".

M-2 has a rockwell of 62-64.

M-42 has a rockwell of 65-67.

Then those aren't annealed. Those are the fully hardened values.


Drill Blanks are also known as core pins, punches, dowels, reamers,
gages, mandrels, pinions, and guide pins.

All of the above can be produced from a variety of materials and
hardnesses. "

This is where they sell them :

http://www.drillblanks.com/

And have a more updated web. The high quality Labrobe (or such
spelling) got theirs here - and may still do.
http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Latrob.../dp/B000LDIR5Q


Martin

On 13 Mar 2015 02:46:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-12, Ed Huntress wrote:
On 12 Mar 2015 03:24:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-11, Ed Huntress wrote:
On 11 Mar 2015 02:25:28 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-03-10, dpb wrote:
On 03/10/2015 9:04 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

[ ... ]

I don't *see* the weld (I said "pretty much invisible"), but the
shanks of normal HSS drill bits made in the USA are *way* too soft to be
annealed HSS.

Annealed M2 is around 220 - 240 Brinell. That's just convertible to
Rockwell C, value of 20.

O.K. Pretty soft.

That's pretty soft steel, Don. Hot-rolled 1018 or 1020 is somewhere in
the neighborhood of 130 Brinell. But cold-rolled is quite a bit
harder.

O.K.

I don't *use* drills from China. I'm just judging by how
soft the shanks are. Whenever you spin a bit in a chuck, you will see
ridges and grooves dragged around the shank.

Sure. I have more than a few that are decorated like that. g And you
can bend the shanks in a vise.

Yes. Or turn the shank down to make a small Silver & Demming
drill at need. :-)

If HSS can really be annealed *that* soft, I'll take your word
for it, but I thought that even annealed HSS was not nearly that soft.

We seldom see real annealed HSS, because it takes a long temperature
ramp-down from 1600 F to anneal it all the way. Like 24 hours or so. I
don't know how close you can get with a quick heat-and-cool cycle;
maybe it's not far off of the full-anneal value.

Or -- perhaps the hardening is done by induction heating
allowing the shank to remain soft.

I don't know. The standard heat treatment for HSS is pretty elaborate.
It has to soak at high heat to get the carbides into solution. How in
the heck they do that on drill bits, while producing a soft shank, I
can hardly guess.

HSS is used by some custom knife makers, who heat treat it, and it's
led to some confusion. You can harden HSS with a fairly simple
heat-and-quench. But the result is not high-speed steel. It has no red
hardness if you do it that way. It's full of carbides, but it goes
limp at machining temperatures.


It's normally only sold in the annealed condition to the cutting tool
manufacturers. I don't know how the twist drill companies do it after
hardening the drill bits, nor just how soft they're able to get it.

Or -- perhaps retain the shank in the annealed state. It seems
to me that the extra work of annealing the shank after the drill is
hardened is an added expense.

Maybe. Again, I don't know how it's done.


But I do know, from my days as tooling editor at Machining Magazine,
that those shanks are annealed, and that the steel is all in one
piece, all of the same material. Or it was. They typically grind the
shanks in a centerless grinder, and they're fed into a fixture, since
they can't be through-fed. That limits the accuracy of the grinding.

O.K.

I haven't been involved with these questions for 15 years, so, as with
most things, I may be out of date. d8-)

Still -- more information than I have.

But still -- my original advice to not use drill shanks as
needle rollers stands. :-)

Absolutely. Even if you had fully hardened and precision-ground pieces
os HSS, they likely would not make good bearings. It's not formulated
for that service. Bearings are made mostly of AISI/SAE 52100 alloy for
specific reasons, having to do with the way it behaves upon heat
treatment. It's not simple to make a bearing or a race that will
withstand many millions of cycles at high loads.

--
Ed Huntress


Enjoy,
DoN.

I know that. They come the way you want them.
M2 when hardened is like that... I bought M2 and M42
for push rods and axles and the like. All soft enough
to saw through. Information was provided on tempering
if wanted.

Martin

On 3/13/2015 6:46 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 23:08:30 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

I bought from these grinding companies.

http://www.cencogrinding.com/drillblanks.html

This place has high quality center ground drill blanks.
It comes annealed so it can be ground into real HSS drills.
Quote:

"From start to finish 100% American made.

We specialize in high speed steel drill blanks of all sizes from .005"
to 3.500" in diameter with a .0002 tolerance and lengths up to 60".

M-2 has a rockwell of 62-64.

M-42 has a rockwell of 65-67.

Then those aren't annealed. Those are the fully hardened values.


Drill Blanks are also known as core pins, punches, dowels, reamers,
gages, mandrels, pinions, and guide pins.

All of the above can be produced from a variety of materials and
hardnesses. "

This is where they sell them :

http://www.drillblanks.com/

And have a more updated web. The high quality Labrobe (or such
spelling) got theirs here - and may still do.
http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Latrob.../dp/B000LDIR5Q


Martin

On 03/13/2015 12:01 AM, dpb wrote:
On 03/10/2015 9:25 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2015-03-10, wrote:
...

Well, as suggested, there's always the drill stem in virtually any
diameter you want/need to fabricate some

Beware! (Modern drill shanks are not hardened -- they are mild
steel. ....


The suggested drill rod from McM-Carr is hardened tool steel and are
solid rod full length...not _quite_ what a real case-hardened bearing
roller would be probably, but will make a serviceable roller I have no
doubt.


The M42 "ultra-hard" is Rockwell C66 per their datasheet...

A little more looking found from the AST bearings website the following...

"...The typical surface hardness for bearing components ... ranges from
60- 64 on the Rockwell hardness C scale (Rc)."

so from a hardness standpoint this material fits right in. They use
52100 chrome steel polished and all, of course, but again as a stop-gap
solution as was the point of the original post the above would get by
reasonably well...

--

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 09:53:49 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 03/13/2015 12:01 AM, dpb wrote:
On 03/10/2015 9:25 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2015-03-10, wrote:
...

Well, as suggested, there's always the drill stem in virtually any
diameter you want/need to fabricate some

Beware! (Modern drill shanks are not hardened -- they are mild
steel. ....


The suggested drill rod from McM-Carr is hardened tool steel and are
solid rod full length...not _quite_ what a real case-hardened bearing
roller would be probably, but will make a serviceable roller I have no
doubt.


The M42 "ultra-hard" is Rockwell C66 per their datasheet...

A little more looking found from the AST bearings website the following...

"...The typical surface hardness for bearing components ... ranges from
60- 64 on the Rockwell hardness C scale (Rc)."

so from a hardness standpoint this material fits right in. They use
52100 chrome steel polished and all, of course, but again as a stop-gap
solution as was the point of the original post the above would get by
reasonably well...

It's not just hardness. It's the relationship of surface hardness to
core hardness. If the core is too hard (and fully-hardened HSS is hard
all the way through), heavy, repeated loads cause fatigue cracks in
the interior, and evenual destruction by cracking. You've probably
seen some cracked ball bearings, which are a little more vulnerable
than rolloer or needle bearings.

Again, if a bearing isn't heavily loaded, the fatigue, "false
fatigue," and spalling problems probably won't show up. If it is
heavily loaded, and subjected to millions of cycles, as in a car's
driveline, you need the right material.

SAE 52100 and some similar proprietary alloys are the right materials.

--
Ed Huntress

On 03/14/2015 10:07 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

....[snip]...

It's not just hardness. It's the relationship of surface hardness to
core hardness. ...


I didn't claim it was perfect match...

Again, if a bearing isn't heavily loaded, the fatigue, "false
fatigue," and spalling problems probably won't show up. If it is
heavily loaded, and subjected to millions of cycles, as in a car's
driveline, you need the right material.

SAE 52100 and some similar proprietary alloys are the right materials.

I repeat...

"... as a stop-gap solution...the above would get by reasonably
well..."

until either find the real replacement or similar long-term answer.

--

On 03/14/2015 11:25 AM, dpb wrote:
On 03/14/2015 10:07 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

...[snip]...

It's not just hardness. It's the relationship of surface hardness to
core hardness. ...


I didn't claim it was perfect match...

Again, if a bearing isn't heavily loaded, the fatigue, "false
fatigue," and spalling problems probably won't show up. If it is
heavily loaded, and subjected to millions of cycles, as in a car's
driveline, you need the right material.

SAE 52100 and some similar proprietary alloys are the right materials.

I repeat...

"... as a stop-gap solution...the above would get by reasonably
well..."

until either find the real replacement or similar long-term answer.

And as just one final addendum, I did look briefly when making the
original posting; Mc-C has some chrome steel rod (not 51200,
specifically) but nothing in the small diameters Ivan needed and as it
appeared he was looking at a make-do anyway, the harder tool steels were
all that seemed to show up...now if I thought there were any chance at
all that this vehicle was being put together as a highway daily or
long-distance driver, I'd not suggest it but I just really, really doubt
that's the case...

As it turns out, the real part was available after all, so it all became
moot point, anyhow.

--

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 20:09:29 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 03/14/2015 11:25 AM, dpb wrote:
On 03/14/2015 10:07 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

...[snip]...

It's not just hardness. It's the relationship of surface hardness to
core hardness. ...


I didn't claim it was perfect match...

Again, if a bearing isn't heavily loaded, the fatigue, "false
fatigue," and spalling problems probably won't show up. If it is
heavily loaded, and subjected to millions of cycles, as in a car's
driveline, you need the right material.

SAE 52100 and some similar proprietary alloys are the right materials.

I repeat...

"... as a stop-gap solution...the above would get by reasonably
well..."

until either find the real replacement or similar long-term answer.

And as just one final addendum, I did look briefly when making the
original posting; Mc-C has some chrome steel rod (not 51200,
specifically) but nothing in the small diameters Ivan needed and as it
appeared he was looking at a make-do anyway, the harder tool steels were
all that seemed to show up...now if I thought there were any chance at
all that this vehicle was being put together as a highway daily or
long-distance driver, I'd not suggest it but I just really, really doubt
that's the case...

As it turns out, the real part was available after all, so it all became
moot point, anyhow.

Right, I saw that. I was just commenting on the properties of bearing
steels, and that materials like music wire (typically special, 1.0
-1.2% plain carbon) and HSS aren't suitable for something like an
automobile U-joint in the driveline.

It's a lot more complex than we discussed, but those principles apply
when the loads are heavy and you expect a long life with a lot of
cycles. It's not necessarily true for other types of bearings.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
...
Right, I saw that. I was just commenting on the properties of
bearing
steels, and that materials like music wire (typically special, 1.0
-1.2% plain carbon) and HSS aren't suitable for something like an
automobile U-joint in the driveline.

It's a lot more complex than we discussed, but those principles
apply
when the loads are heavy and you expect a long life with a lot of
cycles. It's not necessarily true for other types of bearings.

--
Ed Huntress

OTOH needle bearings made from stainless TIG rod have held up well on
the casters I made for my off-pavement hydraulic lift platform, which
doesn't have to move when loaded.

-jsw