We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in low
paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no time
for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of it,
it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty cycle
for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as well as
larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being trapped
in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems accompany
companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack of time to
think about doing things differently, being unable to reject
undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

i

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:30:22 -0500, Ignoramus28704
wrote:

We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in low
paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no time
for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of it,
it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty cycle
for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as well as
larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being trapped
in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems accompany
companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack of time to
think about doing things differently, being unable to reject
undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

Interesting thoughts, Ig. And I'm sure there's a lot of truth in it. A
lot of small businesses are trapped, or trap themselves, in a
"survival" cycle that's hard to escape.

I might point out that there is help for those people. I've seen a
couple of small businesses helped by the "Geriatric Squad," the
retired businessmen and women to volunteer for the SBA-sponsored state
small-business help groups. It varies by state, but the one here in NJ
has been a big help to a lot of people. They look at your business and
tell you what you need to do.

They're worth it. They've been there, and they'll give an objective
view of what's wrong, or what can be done.

Even a successful business can get some free "consultation" from these
people.

--
Ed Huntrress

I got got in this cycle...

Profits on apples were declining so I over expanded. We were beating
ourselves to death running all over and needed too much help to get it
all done. One year, we had a near crop failure, so we cut all expenses
to the bone. Didn't have to work near as hard. The surprise: net
profit was higher.

We now produce 20% of the volume but higher price, and less delivery.
AND there's time to go fishing.

Karl

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 06:31:49 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I got got in this cycle...

Profits on apples were declining so I over expanded. We were beating
ourselves to death running all over and needed too much help to get it
all done.

Ugg, suckage.


One year, we had a near crop failure, so we cut all expenses
to the bone. Didn't have to work near as hard. The surprise: net
profit was higher.

We now produce 20% of the volume but higher price, and less delivery.

Is that when you switched to Honeycrisp, or had you planted/grafted
them that way from the start?


AND there's time to go fishing.

Great!

So, did the near crop failure result in the loss of 80% of your trees?
From "cut all expenses" to "20% of the volume" is a massive jump.

--
The more you know, the less you need.
-- Aboriginal Saying

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:30:24 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus28704 wrote:
We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in low
paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no time
for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of it,
it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty cycle
for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as well as
larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being trapped
in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems accompany
companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack of time to
think about doing things differently, being unable to reject
undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

No. Traditionally, low income workers call to bring union reps to the job site and they rally out in front until the business agrees to big labor terms. (Like what McDonald's and other workers are doing).

In Europe, they rally and march several times a year just to keep pressure on businesses to stay on big labor terms. In the US they hardly ever rally or march. Therefore big labor contracts involve lower pay and less benefits.

(because there is no pressure on industry to pay higher wages)

"Ignoramus28704" wrote in message
...
We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in low
paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no time
for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of it,
it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty cycle
for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as well as
larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being trapped
in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems accompany
companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack of time to
think about doing things differently, being unable to reject
undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

I


Its certainly a problem in business to decide how you want to work, and how
to stay in business doing it. All the business models they teach you in
college work... on paper. The thing is unless you are the dominant bullying
big player (Wal-Mart, Ford, Bass Pro Shops, Home Depot, etc) in your market
segment many of those things are invalidated or distorted by necessity for
customer service, conditions of your vendors, selection vs turn rate vs
repeat & addon business.

Even for the big players there are times when its tough. Look at GM.

....
Is that when you switched to Honeycrisp, or had you planted/grafted
them that way from the start?


AND there's time to go fishing.

Great!

So, did the near crop failure result in the loss of 80% of your trees?
From "cut all expenses" to "20% of the volume" is a massive jump.

I was big in Honeycrisp before it was even named. For several years I
sold a great deal of budwood to several nurseries. I'm removing blocks
due to old age now.

The crop loss was just a spring freeze, so no long term damage and I
had the entire year to plan my moves. being a grower is a bit like
playing cards, you have to learn to play the hand you're dealt.
Believe or not, my top three worst years were bumper crops. My two
best years were small crops. In other words if you lose money on every
bushel, you can't make up for it with volume.

BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?

karl

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 17:42:46 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
Is that when you switched to Honeycrisp, or had you planted/grafted
them that way from the start?


AND there's time to go fishing.

Great!

So, did the near crop failure result in the loss of 80% of your trees?
From "cut all expenses" to "20% of the volume" is a massive jump.

I was big in Honeycrisp before it was even named.

Before it was going for gawdawful prices?


For several years I
sold a great deal of budwood to several nurseries.

I hope you got good money for it.


I'm removing blocks due to old age now.

Blocks = acreage?


The crop loss was just a spring freeze, so no long term damage and I
had the entire year to plan my moves. being a grower is a bit like
playing cards, you have to learn to play the hand you're dealt.

Yeah, farmers have always been players.


Believe or not, my top three worst years were bumper crops. My two
best years were small crops. In other words if you lose money on every
bushel, you can't make up for it with volume.

Were the bad years bad because everyone else had a bumper crop, too,
and prices dumped?


BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?

Right. But if I ache like this at 60, I hate to think of living past
70, and don't get me started thinking about 80 or 90... Ayieeeeeeeee!

--
The more you know, the less you need.
-- Aboriginal Saying

Karl Townsend wrote:

BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?


Yes, as long as you believe it.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 19:25:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?


Yes, as long as you believe it.

One of the little sayings I've taken to heart is:

"I may be growing older, but I refuse to grow up!"

--
The more you know, the less you need.
-- Aboriginal Saying

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 19:25:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?


Yes, as long as you believe it.

One of the little sayings I've taken to heart is:

"I may be growing older, but I refuse to grow up!"


We've noticed that, and have been meaning to talk to you about it!

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 23:25:56 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 19:25:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?


Yes, as long as you believe it.

One of the little sayings I've taken to heart is:

"I may be growing older, but I refuse to grow up!"


We've noticed that, and have been meaning to talk to you about it!

Aw, you Olde Fartes are all the same: Stick-in-the-muds. Pffffft!

--
The more you know, the less you need.
-- Aboriginal Saying

On 10/30/2014 7:17 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:30:22 -0500, Ignoramus28704
wrote:

We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in low
paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no time
for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of it,
it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty cycle
for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as well as
larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being trapped
in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems accompany
companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack of time to
think about doing things differently, being unable to reject
undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

Interesting thoughts, Ig. And I'm sure there's a lot of truth in it. A
lot of small businesses are trapped, or trap themselves, in a
"survival" cycle that's hard to escape.

I might point out that there is help for those people. I've seen a
couple of small businesses helped by the "Geriatric Squad," the
retired businessmen and women to volunteer for the SBA-sponsored state
small-business help groups. It varies by state, but the one here in NJ
has been a big help to a lot of people. They look at your business and
tell you what you need to do.

They're worth it. They've been there, and they'll give an objective
view of what's wrong, or what can be done.

Even a successful business can get some free "consultation" from these
people.



SCORE
https://www.score.org/

They have helps us make decisions many times over the years.

On 10/31/2014 6:42 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:
...
Is that when you switched to Honeycrisp, or had you planted/grafted
them that way from the start?


AND there's time to go fishing.

Great!

So, did the near crop failure result in the loss of 80% of your trees?
From "cut all expenses" to "20% of the volume" is a massive jump.

I was big in Honeycrisp before it was even named. For several years I
sold a great deal of budwood to several nurseries. I'm removing blocks
due to old age now.

The crop loss was just a spring freeze, so no long term damage and I
had the entire year to plan my moves. being a grower is a bit like
playing cards, you have to learn to play the hand you're dealt.
Believe or not, my top three worst years were bumper crops. My two
best years were small crops. In other words if you lose money on every
bushel, you can't make up for it with volume.

BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?

karl



It's hard to imagine how you contend with variables that you have
absolutely no control over. It's bad enough without complete unknowns,
I never want to play Poker with you!

On 10/31/2014 11:25 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 19:25:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?


Yes, as long as you believe it.

One of the little sayings I've taken to heart is:

"I may be growing older, but I refuse to grow up!"


We've noticed that, and have been meaning to talk to you about it!


+1

On 10/31/2014 1:53 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:30:24 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus28704
wrote:
We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in
low paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no
time for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of
it, it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty
cycle for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as
well as larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being
trapped in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems
accompany companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack
of time to think about doing things differently, being unable to
reject undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

No. Traditionally, low income workers call to bring union reps to the
job site and they rally out in front until the business agrees to big
labor terms. (Like what McDonald's and other workers are doing).

In Europe, they rally and march several times a year just to keep
pressure on businesses to stay on big labor terms. In the US they
hardly ever rally or march. Therefore big labor contracts involve
lower pay and less benefits.

(because there is no pressure on industry to pay higher wages)



Not every job can pay rocket scientist wages. Entry level jobs teach
people responsibility and skill and other marketable qualities.
Meanwhile, people should have paid attention in school and not gotten a
trophy for "showing up" at a sports game? $15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

Why can't people have some responsibility for their lot in life and not
just have everything handed to them or have some corrupt organization
fight for unearned benefits using extortion, threats and blackmail?

On 10/31/2014 2:19 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

Its certainly a problem in business to decide how you want to work, and
how to stay in business doing it. All the business models they teach
you in college work... on paper. The thing is unless you are the
dominant bullying big player (Wal-Mart, Ford, Bass Pro Shops, Home
Depot, etc) in your market segment many of those things are invalidated
or distorted by necessity for customer service, conditions of your
vendors, selection vs turn rate vs repeat & addon business.

Even for the big players there are times when its tough. Look at GM.



Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:14:57 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

On 10/30/2014 7:17 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:30:22 -0500, Ignoramus28704
wrote:

We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in low
paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no time
for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of it,
it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty cycle
for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as well as
larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being trapped
in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems accompany
companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack of time to
think about doing things differently, being unable to reject
undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

Interesting thoughts, Ig. And I'm sure there's a lot of truth in it. A
lot of small businesses are trapped, or trap themselves, in a
"survival" cycle that's hard to escape.

I might point out that there is help for those people. I've seen a
couple of small businesses helped by the "Geriatric Squad," the
retired businessmen and women to volunteer for the SBA-sponsored state
small-business help groups. It varies by state, but the one here in NJ
has been a big help to a lot of people. They look at your business and
tell you what you need to do.

They're worth it. They've been there, and they'll give an objective
view of what's wrong, or what can be done.

Even a successful business can get some free "consultation" from these
people.



SCORE
https://www.score.org/

They have helps us make decisions many times over the years.

Yes! Probably even better. I forgot about them. The SBA may have
shifted their volunteer operations to SCORE. They're one of SCORE's
sponsors.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:31:44 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

someone said:
(because there is no pressure on industry to pay higher wages)



Not every job can pay rocket scientist wages. Entry level jobs teach
people responsibility and skill and other marketable qualities.
Meanwhile, people should have paid attention in school and not gotten a
trophy for "showing up" at a sports game? $15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

It's brilliant! Just think: How many people would put up with $20
hamburgers and $3ea condiments after that goes into effect? People
would have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?


Why can't people have some responsibility for their lot in life and not
just have everything handed to them or have some corrupt organization
fight for unearned benefits using extortion, threats and blackmail?

We can have that again. All we have to do is vote out the current
regime. No, I meant _both_ sides of the aisle. sigh Much more
easily said than done.


--
The more you know, the less you need.
-- Aboriginal Saying

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:31:44 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

snip
$15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

Why can't people have some responsibility for their lot in life and not
just have everything handed to them or have some corrupt organization
fight for unearned benefits using extortion, threats and blackmail?
/snip

Problem is that one way or the other the individual makes at
least that much, as it costs at least this much to live in
the US, assuming they are not living in the storm drains and
dumpster diving for food.

If they are engaged in criminal activity, it is estimated
they will cause *at least* 10X damage for the amount of
money they "earn." Thus if you have a "car clouter," that
steals a package worth 50$ from a car, they will have caused
500$ damage by smashing a window, requiring replacement.
This equates to at least 300,000$ or more societal loss.

If they are employed in low paying jobs, particularly in
high cost areas such as SF or NYC, the taxpayer still takes
it in the shorts because of the social safety net costs for
SNAP, section 8 housing, Medicare, etc. etc. for which they
must pay (now or later).

It would appear far more efficient and equitable to require
the employers to pay the 15$ (or more) per hour and include
these costs in their register prices for their customers,
rather than hiding these costs by foisting these off on the
general taxpayers, many of whom are not customers.

In many cases this will indeed "squeeze" the returns of the
corporate employers and their 1% stockholders, but they can
afford it, based on their rapidly increasing share of the
GDP and wealth.

The alternative is the creation/expansion of third world
enclaves in the US economy, with all of their problems.

Correction of this problem will be expensive, but no where
as expensive as not correcting it.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 13:51:37 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:31:44 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

someone said:
(because there is no pressure on industry to pay higher wages)



Not every job can pay rocket scientist wages. Entry level jobs teach
people responsibility and skill and other marketable qualities.
Meanwhile, people should have paid attention in school and not gotten a
trophy for "showing up" at a sports game? $15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

It's brilliant! Just think: How many people would put up with $20
hamburgers and $3ea condiments after that goes into effect? People
would have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?

While you're practicing your arithmetic, you might want some
real-world prices to put into your homework.

Fast-food restaurants' average labor costs -- total, front- and
back-operations -- run around 25% of sales.

McD's workers average around $8.50/hour. Figure one manager for eight
employees (which is about right), at $11.50/hour, you get an average
of $8.83 for all employees. That represents $1.00 of a $3.99 Big Mac.

If you raised them all to $15.00/hour, that would add $0.80 to the
price of that burger: It would sell for $4.79.

That's significant, but before you start thinking "$20 burgers," try
running the numbers and get real.

--
Ed Huntress

n 11/1/2014 4:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

It's brilliant! Just think: How many people would put up with $20
hamburgers and $3ea condiments after that goes into effect? People
would have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?


I wouldn't care if every fast food joint closed! I can't eat any of it.
It all makes me sick...literally. Maybe if the burger-flipper jobs
didn't exist, people would be forced to be responsible enough to earn a
better livelihood.

On 11/1/2014 5:22 PM, F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:31:44 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

snip
$15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

Why can't people have some responsibility for their lot in life and not
just have everything handed to them or have some corrupt organization
fight for unearned benefits using extortion, threats and blackmail?
/snip

Problem is that one way or the other the individual makes at
least that much, as it costs at least this much to live in
the US, assuming they are not living in the storm drains and
dumpster diving for food.

If they are engaged in criminal activity, it is estimated
they will cause *at least* 10X damage for the amount of
money they "earn." Thus if you have a "car clouter," that
steals a package worth 50$ from a car, they will have caused
500$ damage by smashing a window, requiring replacement.
This equates to at least 300,000$ or more societal loss.

If they are employed in low paying jobs, particularly in
high cost areas such as SF or NYC, the taxpayer still takes
it in the shorts because of the social safety net costs for
SNAP, section 8 housing, Medicare, etc. etc. for which they
must pay (now or later).

It would appear far more efficient and equitable to require
the employers to pay the 15$ (or more) per hour and include
these costs in their register prices for their customers,
rather than hiding these costs by foisting these off on the
general taxpayers, many of whom are not customers.

In many cases this will indeed "squeeze" the returns of the
corporate employers and their 1% stockholders, but they can
afford it, based on their rapidly increasing share of the
GDP and wealth.

The alternative is the creation/expansion of third world
enclaves in the US economy, with all of their problems.

Correction of this problem will be expensive, but no where
as expensive as not correcting it.




I'm all for the "Star Trek" society! But humanity ain't ready or
willing. As long as the degree of greed exists, this is what we have.
So, disincentivizing striving to be a 1%er is NOT the way to go...yet.
Again, something for free has no value.

On Saturday, November 1, 2014 5:22:17 PM UTC-4, F. George McDuffee wrote:
l

It would appear far more efficient and equitable to require
the employers to pay the 15$ (or more) per hour and include
these costs in their register prices for their customers,
rather than hiding these costs by foisting these off on the
general taxpayers, many of whom are not customers.


Unka' George

I disagree. I think it as better to keep larger numbers of minimum wage workers employed and having the government subsidize them . I see the alternate as increasing the number of minimum wage earners that are unemployed and having the government pay a lot more for assistance to the unemployed. One way the government pays part of the costs. The other way the government pays all of the costs.

Also if they are employed , they will not commit as many crimes.

Raising the minimum wage will increase the rate at which we automate.

Dan

On Saturday, November 1, 2014 5:44:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
d have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?

While you're practicing your arithmetic, you might want some
real-world prices to put into your homework.

Fast-food restaurants' average labor costs -- total, front- and
back-operations -- run around 25% of sales.

McD's workers average around $8.50/hour. Figure one manager for eight
employees (which is about right), at $11.50/hour, you get an average
of $8.83 for all employees. That represents $1.00 of a $3.99 Big Mac.

If you raised them all to $15.00/hour, that would add $0.80 to the
price of that burger: It would sell for $4.79.

That's significant, but before you start thinking "$20 burgers," try
running the numbers and get real.

--
Ed Huntress

Are your labor costs including the cost of benefits? And how many businesses are going to raise the cost of the burgers above that $4.79 and blame the extra price increase on the minimum wage increase?

Dan

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 13:51:37 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:31:44 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

someone said:
(because there is no pressure on industry to pay higher wages)



Not every job can pay rocket scientist wages. Entry level jobs teach
people responsibility and skill and other marketable qualities.
Meanwhile, people should have paid attention in school and not gotten a
trophy for "showing up" at a sports game? $15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

It's brilliant! Just think: How many people would put up with $20
hamburgers and $3ea condiments after that goes into effect? People
would have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?

While you're practicing your arithmetic, you might want some
real-world prices to put into your homework.

Fast-food restaurants' average labor costs -- total, front- and
back-operations -- run around 25% of sales.

McD's workers average around $8.50/hour. Figure one manager for eight
employees (which is about right), at $11.50/hour, you get an average
of $8.83 for all employees. That represents $1.00 of a $3.99 Big Mac.

If you raised them all to $15.00/hour, that would add $0.80 to the
price of that burger: It would sell for $4.79.

That's significant, but before you start thinking "$20 burgers," try
running the numbers and get real.

--
Ed Huntress

Simple solution, reform labor laws. Provide for a yearly COLA
tied to the rate of inflation. That would at least slow down the
errosion of the buying power for low wage workers.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 17:46:29 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 1, 2014 5:44:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
d have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?

While you're practicing your arithmetic, you might want some
real-world prices to put into your homework.

Fast-food restaurants' average labor costs -- total, front- and
back-operations -- run around 25% of sales.

McD's workers average around $8.50/hour. Figure one manager for eight
employees (which is about right), at $11.50/hour, you get an average
of $8.83 for all employees. That represents $1.00 of a $3.99 Big Mac.

If you raised them all to $15.00/hour, that would add $0.80 to the
price of that burger: It would sell for $4.79.

That's significant, but before you start thinking "$20 burgers," try
running the numbers and get real.

--
Ed Huntress

Are your labor costs including the cost of benefits?

That's a figure I got from a trade association. It's supposed to be
total labor costs per restaurant, across the fast-food indisutry.
Another source said that the restaurant industry as a whole averages
33%. Fast-food outlets are more efficient, as one would expect.

And how many businesses are going to raise the cost of the burgers above that $4.79 and blame the extra price increase on the minimum wage increase?

As; many as can get away with it. And if they *do* get away with it,
it tells us that labor was underpriced before the increase.

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 18:08:16 -0700, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 13:51:37 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:31:44 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

someone said:
(because there is no pressure on industry to pay higher wages)



Not every job can pay rocket scientist wages. Entry level jobs teach
people responsibility and skill and other marketable qualities.
Meanwhile, people should have paid attention in school and not gotten a
trophy for "showing up" at a sports game? $15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

It's brilliant! Just think: How many people would put up with $20
hamburgers and $3ea condiments after that goes into effect? People
would have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?

While you're practicing your arithmetic, you might want some
real-world prices to put into your homework.

Fast-food restaurants' average labor costs -- total, front- and
back-operations -- run around 25% of sales.

McD's workers average around $8.50/hour. Figure one manager for eight
employees (which is about right), at $11.50/hour, you get an average
of $8.83 for all employees. That represents $1.00 of a $3.99 Big Mac.

If you raised them all to $15.00/hour, that would add $0.80 to the
price of that burger: It would sell for $4.79.

That's significant, but before you start thinking "$20 burgers," try
running the numbers and get real.

--
Ed Huntress

Simple solution, reform labor laws. Provide for a yearly COLA
tied to the rate of inflation. That would at least slow down the
errosion of the buying power for low wage workers.

Best Regards
Tom.

I'd oppose automatic increases. They make it too easy to start a
wage-price spiral.

--
Ed Huntress

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
n 11/1/2014 4:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Maybe if the burger-flipper jobs didn't exist, people would be forced to
be responsible enough to earn a better livelihood.


They could become community organizers which will
lead them to bigger and better things.

Best Regards
Tom.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 18:08:16 -0700, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 13:51:37 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:31:44 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

someone said:
(because there is no pressure on industry to pay higher wages)



Not every job can pay rocket scientist wages. Entry level jobs teach
people responsibility and skill and other marketable qualities.
Meanwhile, people should have paid attention in school and not gotten a
trophy for "showing up" at a sports game? $15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

It's brilliant! Just think: How many people would put up with $20
hamburgers and $3ea condiments after that goes into effect? People
would have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?

While you're practicing your arithmetic, you might want some
real-world prices to put into your homework.

Fast-food restaurants' average labor costs -- total, front- and
back-operations -- run around 25% of sales.

McD's workers average around $8.50/hour. Figure one manager for eight
employees (which is about right), at $11.50/hour, you get an average
of $8.83 for all employees. That represents $1.00 of a $3.99 Big Mac.

If you raised them all to $15.00/hour, that would add $0.80 to the
price of that burger: It would sell for $4.79.

That's significant, but before you start thinking "$20 burgers," try
running the numbers and get real.

--
Ed Huntress

Simple solution, reform labor laws. Provide for a yearly COLA
tied to the rate of inflation. That would at least slow down the
errosion of the buying power for low wage workers.

Best Regards
Tom.

I'd oppose automatic increases. They make it too easy to start a
wage-price spiral.

--
Ed Huntress

I have to dissargree with that, a spiral might occur but i believe
it would be short term. Employers and workers would quickley
realize there is no benifit to either of them in engaging in a posture
of one upsmanship.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 5:30:24 PM UTC-5, Ignoramus28704 wrote:
We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in low
paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no time
for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of it,
it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty cycle
for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as well as
larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being trapped
in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems accompany
companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack of time to
think about doing things differently, being unable to reject
undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

i

Iggy, (at the risk of breaking the off-topic cycle)

I spent many years in sales and marketing for an auto parts distributor. I visited independent auto parts stores all over Texas and Oklahoma. Many, many of them were Mom and Pop outfits that were in a decades-long rut, making maybe $30K/year net, working 6 days a week, and no vacations. They had a business that was unsellable, and were flat worn out. Those people were trapped in their cycle. Usually the best thing that happened to them was when they finally had that bad month that broke the back of the company. They had to get a job, and they were much happier. I spent a lot of time and effort helping my customers break that cycle and move their business to the point where they could hire some help, take some time off.
I know a guy like that right now that let his store (in Dallas) get reduced by the big national chains until he isn't even making a living. He has a good job waiting for him, but he has to unload the inventory first. He calls me once a week to help him find a buyer. And it's *real* cheap right now. Anyone want to buy a complete auto parts store?
The other side of that job was working with people looking to buy a business. In so many cases they were planing to quit a job and buy a store with their life savings. After visiting with them, looking at their business plan (if any) and running the numbers, most of the time they would have been "buying a job". Those people I encouraged to re-think the plan. They would have ended up 10 years later trapped in a store, savings gone, and making less money than they did working for The Man. Oh, and no benefits.
Math skills: You would e surprised at the number of business owners who do not know the difference between markup and margin. I have taught that subject many, many times.
ROI is another eye-opener for most of them. I would tell a store owner "Oil is the most profitable product line in your store". Of course, most hated oil. They made 10% (markup!) on it, where they might make 35-40% on an idler arm. But that idler arm sat on the shelf for a year waiting for a sale, where their entire oil inventory would turn once a month. I still did not convince many people.
There are still people doing quite well in that business, but the ones that excel - and escape the trap - are the optimistic, pragmatic entrepreneurs that have fun playing The Game. If the business isn't growing, it ain't fun.

But those people, and those skills aren't that common. And people that can maintain all that over decades of time are exceptional.

On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 18:32:38 -0700, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
n 11/1/2014 4:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Maybe if the burger-flipper jobs didn't exist, people would be forced to
be responsible enough to earn a better livelihood.


They could become community organizers which will
lead them to bigger and better things.

Crom help us...

--
The more you know, the less you need.
-- Aboriginal Saying

On 2014-10-31, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus28704" wrote in message
...
We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in low
paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no time
for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of it,
it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty cycle
for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as well as
larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being trapped
in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems accompany
companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack of time to
think about doing things differently, being unable to reject
undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

I


Its certainly a problem in business to decide how you want to work, and how
to stay in business doing it. All the business models they teach you in
college work... on paper. The thing is unless you are the dominant bullying
big player (Wal-Mart, Ford, Bass Pro Shops, Home Depot, etc) in your market
segment many of those things are invalidated or distorted by necessity for
customer service, conditions of your vendors, selection vs turn rate vs
repeat & addon business.

Even for the big players there are times when its tough. Look at GM.

Both small and big businesses can be in a business poverty cycle. What
determines if the business is in poverty is a non-working business
models, low returns, and a lot of distractions for management.

GM is a perfect example.

i

On 2014-11-02, Rex wrote:
Iggy, (at the risk of breaking the off-topic cycle)

I spent many years in sales and marketing for an auto parts
distributor. I visited independent auto parts stores all over
Texas and Oklahoma. Many, many of them were Mom and Pop outfits
that were in a decades-long rut, making maybe $30K/year net,
working 6 days a week, and no vacations. They had a business that
was unsellable, and were flat worn out. Those people were
trapped in their cycle. Usually the best thing that happened to
them was when they finally had that bad month that broke the back
of the company. They had to get a job, and they were much
happier. I spent a lot of time and effort helping my customers
break that cycle and move their business to the point where they
could hire some help, take some time off.

I know a guy like that right now that let his store (in Dallas)
get reduced by the big national chains until he isn't even making
a living. He has a good job waiting for him, but he has to unload
the inventory first. He calls me once a week to help him find a
buyer. And it's *real* cheap right now. Anyone want to buy a
complete auto parts store?

The other side of that job was working with people looking to buy
a business. In so many cases they were planing to quit a job and
buy a store with their life savings. After visiting with them,
looking at their business plan (if any) and running the numbers,
most of the time they would have been "buying a job". Those
people I encouraged to re-think the plan. They would have ended
up 10 years later trapped in a store, savings gone, and making
less money than they did working for The Man. Oh, and no
benefits.

Math skills: You would e surprised at the number of business
owners who do not know the difference between markup and
margin. I have taught that subject many, many times.

ROI is another eye-opener for most of them. I would tell a store
owner "Oil is the most profitable product line in your store". Of
course, most hated oil. They made 10% (markup!) on it, where they
might make 35-40% on an idler arm. But that idler arm sat on the
shelf for a year waiting for a sale, where their entire oil
inventory would turn once a month. I still did not convince many
people. There are still people doing quite well in that
business, but the ones that excel - and escape the trap - are the
optimistic, pragmatic entrepreneurs that have fun playing The
Game. If the business isn't growing, it ain't fun.

But those people, and those skills aren't that common. And people that can maintain all that over decades of time are exceptional.

Thank you for a GREAT post, specific and illustrating similar points.

Owning a store, with a high cost inefficient business model, is a
perfect example of a business trap.

In any kind of business involving inventory, it is also not
immediately obvious how much money one is making, if you do not
properly deal with stale inventory. So there is always a temptation to
fool oneself into thinking that one makes more money than is the case
in reality.

i

On 2014-11-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 13:51:37 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:31:44 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

someone said:
(because there is no pressure on industry to pay higher wages)



Not every job can pay rocket scientist wages. Entry level jobs teach
people responsibility and skill and other marketable qualities.
Meanwhile, people should have paid attention in school and not gotten a
trophy for "showing up" at a sports game? $15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

It's brilliant! Just think: How many people would put up with $20
hamburgers and $3ea condiments after that goes into effect? People
would have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?

While you're practicing your arithmetic, you might want some
real-world prices to put into your homework.

Fast-food restaurants' average labor costs -- total, front- and
back-operations -- run around 25% of sales.

McD's workers average around $8.50/hour. Figure one manager for eight
employees (which is about right), at $11.50/hour, you get an average
of $8.83 for all employees. That represents $1.00 of a $3.99 Big Mac.

If you raised them all to $15.00/hour, that would add $0.80 to the
price of that burger: It would sell for $4.79.

That's significant, but before you start thinking "$20 burgers," try
running the numbers and get real.


Ed, what are the other costs? Costs of burgers, costs of electricity,
buns, trash disposal, etc. Right? They are all affected by the wages
of people who work there.

Most low paid people will be out of a job eventually, due to
automation. With high minimum wage, it will happen a little sooner.

i

"Ignoramus3507" wrote in message
news

In any kind of business involving inventory, it is also not
immediately obvious how much money one is making, if you do not
properly deal with stale inventory. So there is always a temptation to
fool oneself into thinking that one makes more money than is the case
in reality.

i

That happened to a lot of used machinery dealers in chicago (lake street)
they held onto obsolete machines in the hopes of selling them someday.
Even as they were slowley going broke they would not discount anything.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 12:31:44 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 1:53 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:30:24 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus28704
wrote:
We all have heard of "poverty cycle", where people are trapped in
low paying jobs, have to work a lot just to make ends meet, have no
time for education, start drinking on top of that etc.

This poverty cycle is real, and while it is possible to get out of
it, it takes a real feat and a superhuman effort.

What I want to bring up is that there is an analogy of poverty
cycle for businesses. This is includes one-man businesses, just as
well as larger companies. The poverty cycle for a company is being
trapped in a low return, high hassle business. Similar problems
accompany companies in poverty, such lack of funds to improve, lack
of time to think about doing things differently, being unable to
reject undesirable clients, etc.

A big effort needs to be made to stay out of the business poverty
cycle. Getting out of it, may be completely impossible (unlike for
people).

No. Traditionally, low income workers call to bring union reps to the
job site and they rally out in front until the business agrees to big
labor terms. (Like what McDonald's and other workers are doing).

In Europe, they rally and march several times a year just to keep
pressure on businesses to stay on big labor terms. In the US they
hardly ever rally or march. Therefore big labor contracts involve
lower pay and less benefits.

(because there is no pressure on industry to pay higher wages)



Not every job can pay rocket scientist wages. Entry level jobs teach
people responsibility and skill and other marketable qualities.
Meanwhile, people should have paid attention in school and not gotten a
trophy for "showing up" at a sports game? $15/hr for a burger flipper
is STUPID!

Why can't people have some responsibility for their lot in life and not
just have everything handed to them or have some corrupt organization
fight for unearned benefits using extortion, threats and blackmail?

I saw in a recent news article that Nestle, Japan is installing a
thousand robots to act as sales-clerks in Japan.

The article:

Nestle parades a robot sales force
Published: 29 Oct 2014 at 18.44 | Viewed: 1,655 | Comments: 0Online
news: World UpdatesWriter: AFP
TOKYO - Food giant Nestle said Wednesday that its Japan unit would
hire 1,000 robots as sales clerks at stores across the country.


A file picture taken on June 28, 2014 shows Japanese mobile
communication giant Softbank's humanoid robot "Pepper" displayed at a
high-tech gadgets exhibition in Tokyo

The first batch of the robots -- a chatty humanoid called Pepper --
will report to work by the end of this year at outlets that sell
coffee capsules and home espresso machines.

"From December, they will start selling coffee machines for us at big
retail stores," said Nestle Japan spokeswoman Miki Kano.

"We are sure that our customers will enjoy shopping and being
entertained by robots."

Pepper -- which has already been at work, chatting with customers at
wireless giant SoftBank's outlets -- has proved an effective marketing
tool for the Japanese mobile carrier, delighting managers who put it
to work collecting customer opinions.

The 120-centimetre (four-foot) tall robot, which moves on rollers and
has what looks like a tablet computer strapped to its chest, was
unveiled in June by SoftBank president Masayoshi Son.

He billed it as an "emotional" robot that understands "70 to 80
percent of spontaneous conversations".

Pepper is set to go on the market from February for about $2,000
apiece.

One can only speculate when MacDonalds will follow.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 21:26:45 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 17:46:29 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 1, 2014 5:44:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
d have to eat healthier foods. Win/win, wot?

While you're practicing your arithmetic, you might want some
real-world prices to put into your homework.

Fast-food restaurants' average labor costs -- total, front- and
back-operations -- run around 25% of sales.

McD's workers average around $8.50/hour. Figure one manager for eight
employees (which is about right), at $11.50/hour, you get an average
of $8.83 for all employees. That represents $1.00 of a $3.99 Big Mac.

If you raised them all to $15.00/hour, that would add $0.80 to the
price of that burger: It would sell for $4.79.

That's significant, but before you start thinking "$20 burgers," try
running the numbers and get real.

--
Ed Huntress

Are your labor costs including the cost of benefits?

That's a figure I got from a trade association. It's supposed to be
total labor costs per restaurant, across the fast-food indisutry.
Another source said that the restaurant industry as a whole averages
33%. Fast-food outlets are more efficient, as one would expect.

And how many businesses are going to raise the cost of the burgers above that $4.79 and blame the extra price increase on the minimum wage increase?

As; many as can get away with it. And if they *do* get away with it,
it tells us that labor was underpriced before the increase.

Ed, is that the total cost of labor, or only salaries? If total cost
it seems surprisingly low, at least based on what the costs were in
Indonesia when I worked there.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 23:25:56 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 19:25:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?


Yes, as long as you believe it.

One of the little sayings I've taken to heart is:

"I may be growing older, but I refuse to grow up!"


We've noticed that, and have been meaning to talk to you about it!

Aw, you Olde Fartes are all the same: Stick-in-the-muds. Pffffft!

Old Fartes? Keep in mind you posted that on usenet.

Wes
--
If it makes you feel better, your government fears you as much as you fear it.

Wes on Sun, 02 Nov 2014 03:54:52 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 23:25:56 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 19:25:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:
BTW, 60 is just a kid, right?
Yes, as long as you believe it.
One of the little sayings I've taken to heart is:
"I may be growing older, but I refuse to grow up!"
We've noticed that, and have been meaning to talk to you about it!
Aw, you Olde Fartes are all the same: Stick-in-the-muds. Pffffft!
Old Fartes? Keep in mind you posted that on usenet.

"Old Farts" these days, not like when I was a boy! ha! We used to
have us real geezers in those days! Not like now. They'll let anyone
with a little grey hair be an old fart. Tain't fitting, we used to
have us some standards!
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."