On Monday, July 21, 1997 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, Kurt Bjorn wrote:
Anyone know of a source for 4140 plate or cut 4140 rounds, 3" dia and up?
does anyone
smarter than me on metallurgy know of a substitute?


Thanks!
--
Kurt Bjorn

Remove "nospam." for email, can't handle the spambots anymore.

4340 is much like 4140 except you can heat treat larger pieces.

Where are you located? Summerville Steel in Kent (near Seattle) is a great place if you are near there. They also have some more locations, but I can't find a web site for them.

Dan

i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg

On 2014-06-23, wrote:
On Monday, July 21, 1997 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, Kurt Bjorn wrote:
Anyone know of a source for 4140 plate or cut 4140 rounds, 3" dia and up?
does anyone
smarter than me on metallurgy know of a substitute?


Thanks!

4340 is much like 4140 except you can heat treat larger pieces.

Where are you located? Summerville Steel in Kent (near Seattle) is a great place if you are near there. They also have some more locations, but I can't find a web site for them.

Dan

Ignoramus20109 wrote:
i have some for sale 4140 bars

What ya got in small round stock ? Got any SS tubing ? Finish unimportant
, I'm going to be making some bathroom fixtures - towel bars , paper holder
, etc for the bathroom in our new "house" . I'll need some in 1" OD .
--
Snag

"Ignoramus20109" wrote in message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

On 2014-06-23, Terry Coombs wrote:
Ignoramus20109 wrote:
i have some for sale 4140 bars

What ya got in small round stock ? Got any SS tubing ? Finish unimportant
, I'm going to be making some bathroom fixtures - towel bars , paper holder
, etc for the bathroom in our new "house" . I'll need some in 1" OD .

No 4140 rounds, all sold.

I scrapped 90% of SS tubing I had, only eft with what I need for the
future pig roaster.

i

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

--
Snag

No 4140 rounds, all sold.

I scrapped 90% of SS tubing I had, only eft with what I need for the
future pig roaster.

i

You didn't save the strainrods from that mold machine? probably 8"
rounds.

fOn 2014-06-24, Karl Townsend wrote:

No 4140 rounds, all sold.

I scrapped 90% of SS tubing I had, only eft with what I need for the
future pig roaster.

i

You didn't save the strainrods from that mold machine? probably 8"
rounds.

No. The clamping unit alone weighed about 30,000 pounds, too much to
mess with. We barely loaded it on a truck.

i

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

Terry, you could plonk him, as most of the rest of us have done. Then
you wouldn't see him again. It's quick, simple, and very worthwhile.

--
Learning to ignore things is one of the great paths to inner peace.
-- Robert J. Sawyer

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

Terry, you could plonk him, as most of the rest of us have done. Then
you wouldn't see him again. It's quick, simple, and very worthwhile.

I did have him plonked , dunno how he escaped the BozoBin ... I have been
changing computers around , he may have escaped in the confusion when I
replaced the HDD and reinstalled the OS in this comp . Damn thing still
ain't quite right and I can't remember just exactly how it was configured
before .
--
Snag

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

PM is correct though. About the only time I can recall he was correct.


"Libertarianism IS fascism... Fascism is corporate government – a Libertarian’s wet dream"
Tala Brandeis
Owner at Tala Brandeis Associates"

On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:08:23 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

PM is correct though. About the only time I can recall he was correct.

He would be correct should the specific job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty much a moot point.

--
Learning to ignore things is one of the great paths to inner peace.
-- Robert J. Sawyer

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:08:23 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

PM is correct though. About the only time I can recall he was
correct.

He would be correct should the specific job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty much a moot point.

Oh how true . I have several pieces of round stock that's "probably" 4140 .
Cuts like it , hardens like it , spark is identical . Quite a bit better
steel than most of my projects need , for sure .

--
Snag

On 2014-06-24, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

PM is correct though. About the only time I can recall he was correct.

Scrap metal for those who need to make for certain trades, but
for a hobby user, if it behaves like 4140, and the price is reasonable
enough, who cares about certs?

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2014-06-24, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

PM is correct though. About the only time I can recall he was correct.

Scrap metal for those who need to make for certain trades, but
for a hobby user, if it behaves like 4140, and the price is reasonable
enough, who cares about certs?


Without certs, you won't know if it "behaves like 4140" until it doesn't.

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

Scrap metal for those who need to make for certain trades, but
for a hobby user, if it behaves like 4140, and the price is
reasonable
enough, who cares about certs?

Enjoy,
DoN.

How would you measure its yield point and elongation?

We've discussed how to apply and measure a heavy pulling or lifting
force several times, and I suggested a Porta-Power pull-back cylinder
and pressure gauge, but never saw any feedback on how well it worked.
Common shop equipment doesn't lend itself to this the way a press does
to compression.

In decades of prowling for surplus machinery I've seen only two
multi-ton tension gauges for sale.

I once worked in the lab of a leather factory where I ran an ancient
ancestor of these:
http://www.anamet.cz/sites/all/storage/B140D.pdf

This shows what a tensile test specimen looks like.
http://www.hsc.csu.edu.au/engineerin...210/index.html

-jsw

On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:10:56 PM UTC-4, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:




Without certs, you won't know if it "behaves like 4140" until it doesn't.


http://www.oxford-instruments.com/in...identification

Dan

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:10:56 PM UTC-4, PrecisionmachinisT
wrote:

Without certs, you won't know if it "behaves like 4140" until it
doesn't.

http://www.oxford-instruments.com/in...identification

Dan

For us the real question is if the part will do what we expect, as-is
or with amateur heat treating. I rig up a proof test with a chainfall
and load scale.
-jsw

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message ...
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .


Only a retard would argue that untraceable material that was purchased at auction for less than it's scrap value is somehow not scrap, Terry.

On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 13:15:32 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:08:23 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

PM is correct though. About the only time I can recall he was correct.

He would be correct should the specific job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty much a moot point.

I've never needed a cert in 20 years of being in this business, but I
do not do any work for anything that drives or flys.

Never seen a cert at my last job either.

The metal suppliers I deal with all want extra cash for certs. I just
say no.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

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wrote in message ...
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:10:56 PM UTC-4, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:




Without certs, you won't know if it "behaves like 4140" until it doesn't.


http://www.oxford-instruments.com/in...identification


Yes, Dan, a qualified laboratory can perform an assay on scrap alloy and certify it's findings as to mechanical and chemical properties, after which point it is no longer scrap.

Your point is what, exactly?

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

Scrap metal for those who need to make for certain trades, but
for a hobby user, if it behaves like 4140, and the price is
reasonable
enough, who cares about certs?

Enjoy,
DoN.

How would you measure its yield point and elongation?

We've discussed how to apply and measure a heavy pulling or lifting
force several times, and I suggested a Porta-Power pull-back cylinder
and pressure gauge, but never saw any feedback on how well it worked.
Common shop equipment doesn't lend itself to this the way a press does
to compression.

In decades of prowling for surplus machinery I've seen only two
multi-ton tension gauges for sale.

I once worked in the lab of a leather factory where I ran an ancient
ancestor of these:
http://www.anamet.cz/sites/all/storage/B140D.pdf

This shows what a tensile test specimen looks like.
http://www.hsc.csu.edu.au/engineerin...10/index..html



Typically one or more specimens are made from the issued material as soon as the order hits the shop floor, the specimen is engraved with the pertinent information and then production begins on the actual parts that are being machined from the material...the test specimen will travel in the same basket or crate along with the production parts up to and including heat treat, after which time it is then separated and subjected to destructive testing. If it fails, this indicates a problem either in heat treat or in the material chemical composition and production is halted until the problem is resolved.

I am personally familiar with two places that do their own tensile testing, in both cases the machinery was designed and fabricated in house and in both cases there is a very thick layer of polycarbonate glazing surrounding the press so as to contain anything that might unexpectedly go ballistic.

One thing I find interesting is that on fracturing, one end forms a sort of cone shape, and the other forms into a sort of cup shape; this occurs at random, which end forms the cup and which end forms the point being basically a crap shoot with 50/50 odds.

"Randy333" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 13:15:32 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:08:23 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

PM is correct though. About the only time I can recall he was correct.

He would be correct should the specific job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty much a moot point.

I've never needed a cert in 20 years of being in this business, but I
do not do any work for anything that drives or flys.

Never seen a cert at my last job either.

The metal suppliers I deal with all want extra cash for certs. I just
say no.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy


If a customer specifies a particular alloy, then it is solely up to you to insure that the correct material was indeed used; the fact that he did not specifically request certifications is irrelevant if injury results due to material substitution.

If you don't believe me, perhaps you ought to ask your lawyer or insurance agent what he thinks.

"Randy333"
He would be correct should the specific
job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a
problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific
high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty
much a moot point.

I've never needed a cert in 20 years of being in
this business, but I
do not do any work for anything that drives or
flys.

Never seen a cert at my last job either.

The metal suppliers I deal with all want extra
cash for certs. I just
say no.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

I've developed the habit of marking all my metal
stock, even the
cutoffs left over, with the known alloy number.
It's nice to know
for sure what it is. I've also cut off small
pieces and stamped
the number to make a set of alloys to spark test
unknown metals
that show up here. Spark testing will at least
give you a way to
estimate the carbon content which is the most
critical to know.
Magnesium is the easiest to identify. ;)}
phil k.

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .


Only a retard would argue that untraceable material that was
purchased at auction for less than it's scrap value is somehow not
scrap, Terry.

I can agree with that . When I need a piece that's say for a suspension
part I buy known alloys from a supplier . I do not ask for certs because
it's superfluous to the type of stuff I make . The supplier asserts on my
invoice what I bought . Should a problem arise because it was not what they
said , the problem becomes theirs ...

--
Snag

On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 2:23:31 PM UTC-4, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:



Yes, Dan, a qualified laboratory can perform an assay on scrap alloy and certify it's findings as to mechanical and chemical properties, after which point it is no longer scrap.



Your point is what, exactly?

My local scrap yard has an Oxford XFR and will use it on any metal that I want to know what alloy it is. It is a portable instrument and checking some metal takes less than a minute, well maybe two minutes if you count getting it out of its case.

My point is that identifying a metal can be quick and easy. May not be cheap. I have not asked how much it cost and how much it costs to get it calibrated every year. I will try to remember to ask about the costs the next time I go by there. My best guess is maybe $1 per test. That is assuming they use it about 4 times a day or 1000 times a year.


Dan

On 26/06/14 01:16, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 2:23:31 PM UTC-4, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:


Yes, Dan, a qualified laboratory can perform an assay on scrap alloy and certify it's findings as to mechanical and chemical properties, after which point it is no longer scrap.



Your point is what, exactly?
My local scrap yard has an Oxford XFR and will use it on any metal that I want to know what alloy it is. It is a portable instrument and checking some metal takes less than a minute, well maybe two minutes if you count getting it out of its case.

My point is that identifying a metal can be quick and easy. May not be cheap. I have not asked how much it cost and how much it costs to get it calibrated every year. I will try to remember to ask about the costs the next time I go by there. My best guess is maybe $1 per test. That is assuming they use it about 4 times a day or 1000 times a year.


Dan
A nice piece of kit to have available. I used to write software for OE
and XRF spectrometers but not the real detailed bits. I do know an ex
physicist that did quite a bit of that sort of thing and started the
company I used to work for, IIRC he did some work for a handheld xray
machine developing the software for the "brick on a stick" but in the
end IIRC they bought an existing company and product and went with that.
He did show me a prototype and analysed a brass switch escutcheon and it
gave about what I would have expected. Nice to see them being useful,
not sure about current price, but about £40k springs to mind.

On 2014-06-25, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

Scrap metal for those who need to make for certain trades, but
for a hobby user, if it behaves like 4140, and the price is
reasonable
enough, who cares about certs?

Enjoy,
DoN.

How would you measure its yield point and elongation?

Normally -- *I* would not.

However, if I really needed to (and thus sacrifice a portion of
the stock which I had acquired -- and hope that it is representative of
the whole), what I would do is start with a smaller sample than appears
to be drawn in your second URL below, and take an Enerpac hydraulic
cylinder with a hollow ram (made for pulling or pushing instead of just
for pulling) and build an adaptor to hold it all and the sample. The
measurements to be made are clearly enough described in that second web
page. But making such a test fixture would consume even more material
which I would rather use for other purposes. :-)

FWIW -- the Enerpac cylinder is capable of 10,000 lbs with a
10,000 PSI hydraulic feed. I would need to add a pressure gauge to tell
the force applied -- and ideally would want one with a second needle
which would record the peak value reached by the primary one.

We've discussed how to apply and measure a heavy pulling or lifting
force several times, and I suggested a Porta-Power pull-back cylinder
and pressure gauge, but never saw any feedback on how well it worked.
Common shop equipment doesn't lend itself to this the way a press does
to compression.

You have seen none by me, because I never felt the need to make
such measurements. Likely the same with others here. Speculation on
how to do things is fun -- but consuming material good for

In decades of prowling for surplus machinery I've seen only two
multi-ton tension gauges for sale.

I once worked in the lab of a leather factory where I ran an ancient
ancestor of these:
http://www.anamet.cz/sites/all/storage/B140D.pdf

Those photos show a lot of people making tests without safety
glasses or a face shield. For some of the tests, I guess that it does
not matter, but for others, it really should.

This shows what a tensile test specimen looks like.
http://www.hsc.csu.edu.au/engineerin...210/index.html

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2014-06-25, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:10:56 PM UTC-4, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:




Without certs, you won't know if it "behaves like 4140" until it doesn't.

For a *hobby* user (most of us here) -- "behaves close enough to
4140" is sufficient for most applications.

And usually -- a spark test, and a rough feel for how difficult
it is to machine would be sufficient.

If it *really* matters (if you are designing close to the limits
of the material), buy material with certs. For the rest of the time,
use "close enough" to play with.

http://www.oxford-instruments.com/in...identification

Dan

I note that the above URL doesn't give any clue as to the price,
which suggests that you don't *want* to know the price. :-)

And based on that -- how much "close enough" would you have to
process to make a match for the cost of the tester?

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2014-06-25, Jim Wilkins wrote:

We've discussed how to apply and measure a heavy pulling or lifting
force several times, and I suggested a Porta-Power pull-back
cylinder
and pressure gauge, but never saw any feedback on how well it
worked.
Common shop equipment doesn't lend itself to this the way a press
does
to compression.

You have seen none by me, because I never felt the need to make
such measurements. Likely the same with others here. Speculation
on
how to do things is fun -- but consuming material good for


Since I make only one or two of a part I pick a metal I hope will work
and proof test the parts afterwards, at up to 5X the expected working
load but not enough to find the yield point. My 4130 came from
Aircraft Spruce or a local specialty supplier and the O-1 is from MSC,
so they aren't mystery metal.

Really I wanted to see if anyone has come up with a clever way to do
this with common shop equipment instead of the 5,000 and 10,000 Lb
load cells I happened to find cheap. An example of the high-strength
parts I make is the attachment fittings they were missing.

-jsw

On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 13:37:58 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Randy333" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 13:15:32 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:08:23 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

PM is correct though. About the only time I can recall he was correct.

He would be correct should the specific job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty much a moot point.

I've never needed a cert in 20 years of being in this business, but I
do not do any work for anything that drives or flys.

Never seen a cert at my last job either.

The metal suppliers I deal with all want extra cash for certs. I just
say no.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy


If a customer specifies a particular alloy, then it is solely up to you to insure that the correct material was indeed used; the fact that he did not specifically request certifications is irrelevant if injury results due to material substitution.

If you don't believe me, perhaps you ought to ask your lawyer or insurance agent what he thinks.


Most times my customer will specify aluminum or steel. That's all.

If they want 1018, 4140, or 6061 I have invoices to say that's what I
bought. Nobody I deal with has ever wanted the heat number on a bar.
That's just the kind of work I do.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

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"Randy333" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 13:37:58 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Randy333" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 13:15:32 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:08:23 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:22:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .

PM is correct though. About the only time I can recall he was correct.

He would be correct should the specific job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty much a moot point.

I've never needed a cert in 20 years of being in this business, but I
do not do any work for anything that drives or flys.

Never seen a cert at my last job either.

The metal suppliers I deal with all want extra cash for certs. I just
say no.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy


If a customer specifies a particular alloy, then it is solely up to you to
insure that the correct material was indeed used; the fact that he did not
specifically request certifications is irrelevant if injury results due to
material substitution.

If you don't believe me, perhaps you ought to ask your lawyer or insurance
agent what he thinks.


Most times my customer will specify aluminum or steel. That's all.


You're good to go then.


If they want 1018, 4140, or 6061 I have invoices to say that's what I
bought. Nobody I deal with has ever wanted the heat number on a bar.
That's just the kind of work I do.


I've got a rack full of A36, what color do you want me to paint the ends?

A nice XRF runs something less than $20K USD and the periodic
certification runs a bit as well.

Wish I had one - my scrap guy has one and sets the percentage to ignore
below. So exotic steel sells for steel unless you can show the mix.

I get QA papers on the armor plate / ballistic steel. Different mills
have their mix to make the same general spec.

Martin

On 6/25/2014 8:45 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2014-06-25, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:10:56 PM UTC-4, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:




Without certs, you won't know if it "behaves like 4140" until it doesn't.

For a *hobby* user (most of us here) -- "behaves close enough to
4140" is sufficient for most applications.

And usually -- a spark test, and a rough feel for how difficult
it is to machine would be sufficient.

If it *really* matters (if you are designing close to the limits
of the material), buy material with certs. For the rest of the time,
use "close enough" to play with.

http://www.oxford-instruments.com/in...identification

Dan

I note that the above URL doesn't give any clue as to the price,
which suggests that you don't *want* to know the price. :-)

And based on that -- how much "close enough" would you have to
process to make a match for the cost of the tester?

Enjoy,
DoN.

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message ...
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .


Only a retard would argue that untraceable material that was
purchased at auction for less than it's scrap value is somehow not
scrap, Terry.

I can agree with that . When I need a piece that's say for a suspension
part I buy known alloys from a supplier . I do not ask for certs because
it's superfluous to the type of stuff I make . The supplier asserts on my

My suppliers provide certifications whether I ask for them or not.

invoice what I bought . Should a problem arise because it was not what they
said , the problem becomes theirs ...

At that point, it's already too late.

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Ignoramus20109" wrote in
message ...
i have some for sale 4140 bars

http://yabe.chudov.com/Steel-Blocks-...13824-0001.jpg


Without certs, it's scrap metal.

**** off .


Only a retard would argue that untraceable material that was
purchased at auction for less than it's scrap value is somehow not
scrap, Terry.

I can agree with that . When I need a piece that's say for a
suspension part I buy known alloys from a supplier . I do not ask
for certs because it's superfluous to the type of stuff I make . The
supplier asserts on my

My suppliers provide certifications whether I ask for them or not.

Probably because they know that your customer base frequently requires
it - I'd bet that of the last 10 people I did little machining jobs for
maybe - MAYBE- one would even know what a cert is . Your market and mine are
worlds apart . 90% of my jobs would be fine with 1045 , an occasional
backhoe bushing needs to be 4140 normalized . We is hillbillies , not rocket
scientists *.

invoice what I bought . Should a problem arise because it was not
what they said , the problem becomes theirs ...

At that point, it's already too late.

Quite likely .

*Don't get me wrong , I know there is a time and a place for material
certifications and calibration standards . Back in the late 70's-early 80's
I was employed by Morton-Thiokol , and worked directly with development of
man-rated aerospace systems . Our lab did pioneering work on ignitor systems
for synchronous orbit insertion boosters . Solid propellant is a bitch to
light in a vacuum ...
My point is that some work requires that kind of traceability , but most
of us here ain't never gonna see it .
--
Snag

On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:16:18 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I will try to remember to ask about the costs the next time I go by there.
Dan

I went by the scrap yard and Ethan , the guy running the small scale, said the
XRF cost about 26 thousand. Scott the owner was not there , so did not ask about the calibration costs.

Dan

On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 14:16:04 -0400, Randy333
wrote:


He would be correct should the specific job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty much a moot point.

I've never needed a cert in 20 years of being in this business, but I
do not do any work for anything that drives or flys.

Never seen a cert at my last job either.

The metal suppliers I deal with all want extra cash for certs. I just
say no.

Client of mine just made 800 parts out of 4140..nicely done..and had
them rejected.
Cause?

Material melted in the UK, but formed into bar stock in the US.

Materials supplier sold them "US" steel..but Boeing rejected them
because of the original source of the melt.

Client has to eat the costs.

And make new ones out of approved material.


"Libertarianism IS fascism... Fascism is corporate government – a Libertarian’s wet dream"
Tala Brandeis
Owner at Tala Brandeis Associates"

Gunner Asch on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:34:18 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 14:16:04 -0400, Randy333
wrote:
He would be correct should the specific job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty much a moot point.

I've never needed a cert in 20 years of being in this business, but I
do not do any work for anything that drives or flys.

Never seen a cert at my last job either.

The metal suppliers I deal with all want extra cash for certs. I just
say no.

Client of mine just made 800 parts out of 4140..nicely done..and had
them rejected.
Cause?

Material melted in the UK, but formed into bar stock in the US.

Materials supplier sold them "US" steel..but Boeing rejected them
because of the original source of the melt.

Client has to eat the costs.

And make new ones out of approved material.

In some fields, it may not matter what the material actually is.
In other fields ....
Aerospace is one of those "other fields". In theory, when an
airplane fails, the part which failed can be traced back to who put it
on the plane, who inspected it, who made it, who signed for the raw
materials, who shipped the raw material, which heat lot it was from,
and who dug it out of the ground.

In the "great stories" I have heard: The school got a great deal
on high grade SS pipe. Originally intended for some nuke power plant.
But, the guy unloaded the pipe and then backed his truck out of the
lot, before handing the paperwork in. By the time he got back in the
lot, the QA guy was out with the can of red paint writing "Scrap" on
the entire lot.
The other, related story, was of Inspector Dick, who finally
"caught them". Seems that the guy had cut a chunk off the billet,
without first transferring the heatlot number from the corner to be
cut off, to the rest of the billet, thus "breaking the chain" of
accountability. Yeah, a technical matter, but if you are not
responsible in small things, why trust you on the larger ones?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:34:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 14:16:04 -0400, Randy333
wrote:


He would be correct should the specific job -require- certs, but for
anyone else and at any other time, it's not a problem. I think most
of us tend to overbuild, so unless a specific high performance is
absolutely required of the part, it's pretty much a moot point.

I've never needed a cert in 20 years of being in this business, but I
do not do any work for anything that drives or flys.

Never seen a cert at my last job either.

The metal suppliers I deal with all want extra cash for certs. I just
say no.

Client of mine just made 800 parts out of 4140..nicely done..and had
them rejected.
Cause?

Material melted in the UK, but formed into bar stock in the US.

Materials supplier sold them "US" steel..but Boeing rejected them
because of the original source of the melt.

Client has to eat the costs.

And make new ones out of approved material.

Isn't the material supplier liable in this case?
What's the client doing about it?

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

On Saturday, June 28, 2014 1:57:15 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:


In the "great stories" I have heard: The school got a great deal


pyotr filipivich

"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Another great story. Long ago I was working for Boeing at Huntsville on a swing arm refurbishment program. And there was some slight rust on the outside of some light fixtures which got written up. I think the rust was written up mostly so no one would write it up later and claim the original refurbishment was not done correctly.

Anyway I wrote to lightly wire brush and spray with CRC 3-36. I knew that CRC 3-36 was used on the Polaris program and was good stuff. Well of course everything had to have certs. And CRC was great about that. No Charge for the cert. But to provide traceability it had to come from the factory. And there was a minimum order requirement from the factory. I found this out when the 3-36 arrived. It was a pallet full with boxes stacked up to about 6 feet.

Would you believe that it was all gone in about two days.

Dan