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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.
Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it. One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform? I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck? Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers. |
#2
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stryped fired this volley in
: An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun. If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to hammer-form it at all? Just do the geometry to make a truncated cone and a bottom, and weld (or solder) away. Two seams: one up the side, and one around the bottom. The only 'forming' necessary would be to bend a lip on the bottom piece, and do a roll bead on the top of the open end. I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use. Lloyd |
#3
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On 1/3/2014 9:20 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
.... If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to hammer-form it at all? ... For compound curves. |
#4
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Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
: For compound curves. It's a bucket, Bob. Lloyd |
#5
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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70... Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in : For compound curves. It's a bucket, Bob. Lloyd http://www.pbase.com/orangecones/tbuckets |
#6
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On 1/3/2014 11:08 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in : For compound curves. It's a bucket, Bob. Lloyd http://www.pbase.com/orangecones/tbuckets I didn't exam every picture closely, but the ones that I did had compound curves. It seems that a cowling would pretty much have to be compound. Bob |
#7
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On Friday, January 3, 2014 8:20:21 AM UTC-6, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
stryped fired this volley in : An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun. If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to hammer-form it at all? Just do the geometry to make a truncated cone and a bottom, and weld (or solder) away. Two seams: one up the side, and one around the bottom. The only 'forming' necessary would be to bend a lip on the bottom piece, and do a roll bead on the top of the open end. I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use. Lloyd Yes, I have looked at videos. However, as you know looking and doing are two different things. The guys on video make it look easy but not sure if I would have the same experience. There are not a lot of compound curves on a T bucket, but there are some designs on different model years that utilize a turtle deck that have some. If you should not use heat on sheet metal, how do you bend the sheet metal to the proper shape withan an English wheel? |
#8
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On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 08:30:49 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote: On Friday, January 3, 2014 8:20:21 AM UTC-6, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: stryped fired this volley in : An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun. If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to hammer-form it at all? Just do the geometry to make a truncated cone and a bottom, and weld (or solder) away. Two seams: one up the side, and one around the bottom. The only 'forming' necessary would be to bend a lip on the bottom piece, and do a roll bead on the top of the open end. I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use. Lloyd Yes, I have looked at videos. However, as you know looking and doing are two different things. The guys on video make it look easy but not sure if I would have the same experience. There are not a lot of compound curves on a T bucket, but there are some designs on different model years that utilize a turtle deck that have some. If you should not use heat on sheet metal, how do you bend the sheet metal to the proper shape withan an English wheel? You bend it cold. The wheel causes the metal to "cold flow" - thinning it and stretching it, causing the metal to bend. |
#9
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On 2014-01-03, stryped wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2014 8:20:21 AM UTC-6, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: stryped fired this volley in : An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun. I had to look up what a T-Bucket was on the web. It is not a container for liquids. :-) [ ... ] I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use. Lloyd Yes, I have looked at videos. However, as you know looking and doing are two different things. The guys on video make it look easy but not sure if I would have the same experience. And videos can be edited to make things take a lot less time than they do in real life. There are not a lot of compound curves on a T bucket, but there are some designs on different model years that utilize a turtle deck that have some. If you should not use heat on sheet metal, how do you bend the sheet metal to the proper shape withan an English wheel? Well ... heat *is* used (with quenching) on sheet metal, to shrink areas to remove dents. Sort of the opposite of what an English Wheel does. The English Wheel (based on seeing one used by a novice, but no hands-on experience) forms the curves by reducing the thickness of the metal in the middle of a curve, thus making it have more area, and thus forcing it into a curve instead of a plane. (The skill from experience, of course, would be what allowed you to make the curve you *want* instead of some other curve. As for what was done before they started coming into the US, in large-scale production, it was done with dies and presses. For one-offs and really small production, probably a planishing (sp?) hammer and an appropriate anvil could accomplish the same thing as the English wheel -- perhaps with a greater need for learned skill. O.K. This site (and its earlier parts) may give a clue how that is done. It is an armour making site, and this is part 5, so you may want to step back and read them all. http://www.ageofarmour.com/education/planishing.html But all this is speculation, as I don't (yet) do such work. Good Luck, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#10
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On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 08:20:21 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: stryped fired this volley in : An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun. If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to hammer-form it at all? Just do the geometry to make a truncated cone and a bottom, and weld (or solder) away. Two seams: one up the side, and one around the bottom. The only 'forming' necessary would be to bend a lip on the bottom piece, and do a roll bead on the top of the open end. I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use. Lloyd I think Loyd ic confusing a "T" bucket with a "tea" bucket (or Billie) A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body (roadster) |
#11
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#12
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![]() "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote: fired this volley in : A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body (roadster) Never would'a guessed. In my region, they're called "Bucket Ts"... This guy, who has to ask how to hang a ceiling is going to make an auto body. Right. Anyone who wants authentic Model 'A" or Model 'T' replacement parts needs to contact Engle's A&T in Middletown Ohio. He has made replacement parts on original Ford dies for over 30 years. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge. |
#13
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On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 13:54:46 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote: fired this volley in : A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body (roadster) Never would'a guessed. In my region, they're called "Bucket Ts"... This guy, who has to ask how to hang a ceiling is going to make an auto body. Right. Anyone who wants authentic Model 'A" or Model 'T' replacement parts needs to contact Engle's A&T in Middletown Ohio. He has made replacement parts on original Ford dies for over 30 years. What fun would THAT be???? |
#14
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"stryped" wrote in message
... I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck? Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers. Try it on small pieces. I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and the difficulty of working from only one side. White paint hides bodywork imperfections well. jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup electric heat. It's 3F outside. |
#15
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Jim Wilkins wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message ... I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck? Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers. Try it on small pieces. I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and the difficulty of working from only one side. White paint hides bodywork imperfections well. jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup electric heat. It's 3F outside. MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller. -- Steve W. |
#16
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"Steve W." wrote in message
... Jim Wilkins wrote: I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and the difficulty of working from only one side. White paint hides bodywork imperfections well. jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup electric heat. It's 3F outside. MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller. -- Steve W. I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to even see inside there. jsw |
#17
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On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:18:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: "Steve W." wrote in message ... Jim Wilkins wrote: I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and the difficulty of working from only one side. White paint hides bodywork imperfections well. jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup electric heat. It's 3F outside. MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller. -- Steve W. I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to even see inside there. jsw Remove the battery and turn on the headlights (high beam preferred) and TIG away - no problem with the electronics. |
#18
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#19
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stryped wrote:
I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying. Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it. One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform? I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck? Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers. Take a look at these vids for some ideas http://www.youtube.com/user/covellron/videos http://www.youtube.com/user/younggunsfab/videos http://www.youtube.com/user/lazzemetalshaping/videos Wheeling isn't hard to learn, it takes a bit of practice to understand just how the metal reacts. The wheel wasn't used in hobby type shops but the pro shops had them, and planishing hammers in use for a long time. You usually make a buck regardless of the forming methods used. That way you have a way to test all the panels. I wouldn't use ANY heat to form sheet metal, causes a LOT of problems that can be terrible to deal with. -- Steve W. |
#20
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On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 05:54:16 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote: I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying. Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it. One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform? I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck? Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers. To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body |
#21
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On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:01:35 AM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 05:54:16 -0800 (PST), stryped wrote: I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying. Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it. One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform? I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck? Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers. To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used them except for the torch. |
#22
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"stryped" wrote in message
... On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:01:35 AM UTC-6, Clare wrote: This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used them except for the torch. So start small and practice. Larry Jacques wants a pair of steel-toed bunny slippers. |
#23
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![]() Jim Wilkins wrote: "stryped" wrote in message ... On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:01:35 AM UTC-6, Clare wrote: This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used them except for the torch. So start small and practice. Larry Jacques wants a pair of steel-toed bunny slippers. With tin foil ears! -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge. |
#24
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On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 13:30:08 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: "stryped" wrote in message ... On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:01:35 AM UTC-6, Clare wrote: This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used them except for the torch. So start small and practice. Larry Jacques wants a pair of steel-toed bunny slippers. ....with which he can swiftly kick strypedtrolls in the arse. sigh When will youse guys learn? P.S: The nick "C-less" came about because there is no "c" in my name. -- Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu |
#25
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On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet.. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan |
#26
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In article ,
says... On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan The reason you're confused is you have no grasp of the basics of using hand tools to form sheet metal. I suggest you buy this DVD and get a clue. This advice also applies to others in this thread who have no clues (along with some who pretend to), not just you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8 I own it. It's easily the best DVD on sheet metal forming I own and I probably have 20 of them that I've purchased over many years. Covell, Fournier, White, etc. I've also taken hands on classes with Fay Butler on using a Power hammer: http://www.faybutler.com/ If you understood how to use hand tools to form sheet metal you would understand that a planishing hammer is basically the equivalent of a slapper (often made from a file that's heated and bent) and a dolly. You frequently use both to raise low spots. This group isn't the place to get expert sheet metal forming advise. Much of what I've seen posted so far is bad information and doesn't give someone the fundamental understanding they need to be successful. The answer isn't tools. The answer is dedication to building skills from lots and lots of practice. The above link to David Gardner's DVD and some hand tools is all someone needs to see if sheet metal forming is for them. If you don't understand how to work sheet metal with hand tools then all power tools will do is get you in trouble faster and further mask your real problems. How soon before you **** yourself again and go back to asking for pictures of my home machine shop instead of focusing on building the skills you are lacking? All that electrical knowledge you have doesn't do you jack **** in this case. Time to get some clues. |
#27
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On Monday, January 6, 2014 1:58:18 PM UTC-5, Jon Banquer wrote:
The reason you're confused is you have no grasp of the basics of using hand tools to form sheet metal. I suggest you buy this DVD and get a clue. But I am not confused. I was asking a member of this group when he would use which tool. Never hurts to get additional opinions. If you don't understand how to work sheet metal with hand tools then all power tools will do is get you in trouble faster and further mask your real problems. I agree with you on this. Dan |
#28
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In article ,
says... On Monday, January 6, 2014 1:58:18 PM UTC-5, Jon Banquer wrote: The reason you're confused is you have no grasp of the basics of using hand tools to form sheet metal. I suggest you buy this DVD and get a clue. But I am not confused. I was asking a member of this group when he would use which tool. Never hurts to get additional opinions. If you don't understand how to work sheet metal with hand tools then all power tools will do is get you in trouble faster and further mask your real problems. I agree with you on this. Dan The answer to all your questions is watching the right video. You will not find the information you need asking questions. Without a doubt this is the best video I've ever seen and I own the majority of sheet metal forming videos ever made... Covell, White, Fournier, etc. Did you watch this link that I posted before? If not, I suggest you watch it. Now, not later. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8 If you like David's no bull****, friendly, style I'd be more than happy to lend you his video. It's worth ten times the $40 plus shipping from the UK I paid for it. There is simply no video that's even close to this video for starting out. I know it and a bunch of people on the H.A.M.B and other places know it as well. David is also an incredibly nice person who I have nothing but respect for. There is so much helpful information in his video that it's mind boggling. Sheet metal work is very physical work. One set of videos I don't own are the one's done by Peter Tommasini. When I have some free time I'm going to order them. This guy says they are the best and I respect his opinion. I would still start with David Gardner's video. About Peter Tommasini DVD videos: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s....php?p=9321858 Here is a link to the Peter Tommasini website: http://www.handbuilt.net.au/dvds.html Like David Gardner, Peter Tommasini also makes it very clear that it's not about the tools. |
#29
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Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel
and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan You use the wheel more for larger open curves like fenders, hoods, roof panels. (you can use it for smaller stuff but you need to work harder. The wheel is also only a stretching tool. Planishing hammer is more for close up work on something like headlight buckets, gas tanks, basically smaller parts or tighter curves. Depending on the heads used it stretch or shrink metal. It also can be easily used closer to the edge than a wheel. If your going to start with steel sheet and form an entire body from steel it takes a lot of tooling and time. If I wanted a "common" looking car I would opt for a kit, most of which require substantial work to finish. (which is why there are tons of unfinished or un-started kits around. I would also opt for steel if possible. Fiberglass is OK for a show car but when you start really driving them most start to show weaknesses very soon. Now if I was building something "different" then I'd probably opt for fiberglass over foam sheet. Easy to work with and faster prototype construction. http://www.rqriley.com http://www.healeyfactory.com/index.htm http://www.tbucketplans.com/ http://bucketbuilder.bb3host.com/index.php http://forums.bucketheadbash.com/index.php http://www.t-bucketplans.com/ http://www.jalopyjournal.com (look around and you can find full dimensional drawings and more) -- Steve W. |
#31
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On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer) |
#32
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On Monday, January 6, 2014 6:40:16 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer) This got me thinking. I looked at a planishing hammer set up at harbor freight. ALl it was was an air operated air hammer in a stand. This got me wondering. I was reading where someone built a CObra out of Aluminum using a wood buck. (I did not realize the original Cobra was aluminum until I read the article) I know aluminum is much softer. Could a person use a hand operated air hammer like this to hammer the aluminum to the form of the buck thenjust use the English wheel to smooth out the marks left from the air hammer? It seems too simple so I am guessing it would not work. |
#33
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Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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stryped wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2014 6:40:16 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote: On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer) This got me thinking. I looked at a planishing hammer set up at harbor freight. ALl it was was an air operated air hammer in a stand. This got me wondering. I was reading where someone built a CObra out of Aluminum using a wood buck. (I did not realize the original Cobra was aluminum until I read the article) I know aluminum is much softer. Could a person use a hand operated air hammer like this to hammer the aluminum to the form of the buck thenjust use the English wheel to smooth out the marks left from the air hammer? It seems too simple so I am guessing it would not work. A planishing hammer isn't "just an air hammer" There are different dies used top/bottom to form the metal. It also has a much shorter throw and doesn't hit as hard as a common air chisel type hammer. Trying to use a common air hammer on a buck will give you some serious dents to deal with. Oh an aluminum is easier to form, but it also takes a lot of practice to form it and make it smooth because it is soft. Then you need to weld it. That takes even more practice than steel. -- Steve W. |
#34
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In article ,
says... I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying. Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it. One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform? I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck? Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers. http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143 "I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats hands-on instruction." http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2 |
#35
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On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote:
In article , I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying. Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it. One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform? I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck? Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers. http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143 "I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats hands-on instruction." http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2 I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/ So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together? I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects? Thanks! |
#36
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stryped wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2 I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/ So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together? I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects? Thanks! Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces, reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is easy if you build it as a knockdown. The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you smooth out the panels. Normally you use 18 gauge for the thicker spots and bracing, 20 for the panels. 22 if you want a lightweight, but it dings EASY! Building the body from scratch is going to mean learning a lot of new skills, and buying tools you don't have. Body files, slappers, shot bars, dollies and body hammers. When you are done buying tools you will basically have a complete body fab shop. You could look around and see if you can find a shop with the tools, then see if they will teach you the basics or at least let you watch them. You don't have to buy some of the stuff, if you have a welder and steel you can make some of them. -- Steve W. |
#37
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On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote:
stryped wrote: http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2 I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/ So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together? I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects? Thanks! Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces, reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is easy if you build it as a knockdown. The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you smooth out the panels. Normally you use 18 gauge for the thicker spots and bracing, 20 for the panels. 22 if you want a lightweight, but it dings EASY! Building the body from scratch is going to mean learning a lot of new skills, and buying tools you don't have. Body files, slappers, shot bars, dollies and body hammers. When you are done buying tools you will basically have a complete body fab shop. You could look around and see if you can find a shop with the tools, then see if they will teach you the basics or at least let you watch them. You don't have to buy some of the stuff, if you have a welder and steel you can make some of them. -- Steve W. Problem is I live in a very small town. I do have several welders. I saw an English wheel at HF but even it was 300 bucks. I thought I saw in one of the videos when he was hammering over a buck he used a piece of wood to hit instead of the metal. The metal came out surprisingly smooth. (At least on the video). I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic 60's mustangs. |
#38
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On 1/3/2014 5:28 PM, stryped wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote: stryped wrote: http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2 I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/ So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together? I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects? Thanks! Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces, reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is easy if you build it as a knockdown. The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you smooth out the panels. Normally you use 18 gauge for the thicker spots and bracing, 20 for the panels. 22 if you want a lightweight, but it dings EASY! Building the body from scratch is going to mean learning a lot of new skills, and buying tools you don't have. Body files, slappers, shot bars, dollies and body hammers. When you are done buying tools you will basically have a complete body fab shop. You could look around and see if you can find a shop with the tools, then see if they will teach you the basics or at least let you watch them. You don't have to buy some of the stuff, if you have a welder and steel you can make some of them. -- Steve W. Problem is I live in a very small town. I do have several welders. I saw an English wheel at HF but even it was 300 bucks. I thought I saw in one of the videos when he was hammering over a buck he used a piece of wood to hit instead of the metal. The metal came out surprisingly smooth. (At least on the video). I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic 60's mustangs. Problem is - anyone in their right mind would do this in Fiberglass... |
#39
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Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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In article ,
says... On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote: stryped wrote: http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2 I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/ So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together? I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects? Thanks! Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces, reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is easy if you build it as a knockdown. The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you smooth out the panels. "I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic 60's mustangs." It's not about money. It's about total dedication. Right now you don't show signs of having the needed dedication. Before you can learn to use an English wheel you have to be able to make parts by hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8 |
#40
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stryped wrote:
Problem is I live in a very small town. I do have several welders. I saw an English wheel at HF but even it was 300 bucks. I thought I saw in one of the videos when he was hammering over a buck he used a piece of wood to hit instead of the metal. The metal came out surprisingly smooth. (At least on the video). I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic 60's mustangs. Define small town and give me a general location. I live in the middle of nowhere myself. -- Steve W. |
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