On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:19:33 PM UTC-5, jim wrote:


Sounds like you are saying the claim that a higher minimum wage

will produce high unemployment is bull****.

-

Post something about metalworking and I will reply. Don't you feel guilty posting about minimum wage in a metalworking usegroup?

Dan

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 13:06:35 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus28714 wrote:

On 2013-12-04, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.

A lot of people could, and do, hire illegal aliens. But a McDonalds
franchisee cannot, they are overseen very heavily.


Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

Not HERE they don't, damnit! They can get legal or get lost. mumble,
mumble LEGAL immigrants can eat here all they please.

But they are people too.

And their countries of origin are countries too and they need to get
back to them. Follow the rules and come here legally. If you don't like
the rules it doesn't give you license to ignore them.

Yes, they're people, too, and should be fed and housed while they're
being DEPORTED IMMEDIATELY. Some 24 million illegal Mexican aliens
are here right now, with millions of illegal Chinese, African (various
countries) and other illegals here. They are costing us trillions of
dollars which could have been either used by needy Americans or NOT
SPENT AT ALL. If they're breaking our laws, kick their asses out now,
(but _nicely_, with a smile) if that's OK with you, Ig. Sheesh...

--
Make awkward sexual advances, not war.

On 12/05/2013 12:06 PM, Pete C. wrote:


And their countries of origin are countries too and they need to get
back to them. Follow the rules and come here legally. If you don't like
the rules it doesn't give you license to ignore them.


President StompyFoot doesn't seem to need a license when
he ignores them.



technomaNge
--

On 2013-12-05, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Ignoramus19407 wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely true. They already automate much of the drink dispensing,
much like starsucks uses super auto espresso machines that require no
skill to operate. All of these fast food / fast beverage places can
readily be automated to a much higher degree.

Beyond that, the minimum wage is nothing but a vote buying scam. Raising
the minimum wage simply triggers a cascade effect of economic
rebalancing such that the minimum wage worker is back to exactly the
same hours worked to buying power ratio as where they started after six
months to a year. The numbers on the pay check are larger, but it still
takes the same number of work hours to buy the same products as before.


A lot of long time restaurants and fast food places have closed around
here. Some were due to the downturn in new home construction, but some
just could no longer stay competitive and closed down. I saw another
one a few days ago. The property owner locked them out because they were
$26,000 behind on their lease payments. The prior tenant was a
Blockbuster store that went out of business.


Restaurants are constantly going out of business, this has been true
forever.

i

On 2013-12-05, Pete C. wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

Not at all. Automation is quite capable of assembling your burger
without pickles if that's what you order. The food will not come
pre-made from some far away factory, the components will arrive the same
as they do now and will simply be prepared and assembled by machines
instead of the current low skill workers who usually screw up the order
anyway.

Exactly. At our McDonalds, they screw up 40-50% of my orders, in
various ways.

i

For me, getting a descent wage wasn't so easy. I bagged groceries for
$3.35/hr for a short period of time, did other low wage part time jobs when
people gave me a chance. Being a quite person doesn't help, employers buy
who sells themselves the best, not the person with the most potential. On
my part time minimum wage I put enough money aside to purchase a Taig Micro
Lathe, my dad bought me a General 1" micrometer. I made all kinds of
things, including a model steam engine, no plans, just memory from seeing
one in an encyclopedia in high school a few years before.

So as I was finishing up courses required for my Associated degree in
Electronics Technology, I got a job at a machine shop for $3.35/hr, same
wage as burger flippers make. I figured I was getting not only a paycheck,
but education and experience as well. After almost 2 years at the machine
shop I was up to $4 per hour but was interested in something in electronics
like I went to school for. Then I got a job in office machine repair,
started at $4/hr. I was sent to Chicago for training and it involved
electronics. I never could get the better paying industrial electrician
jobs or anything. On the side for hobby, I taught myself "C" programming,
Basic, Assembly Language, designed and build a stepper motor 3 axis circuit
board drill, ran from a Commodore 64, interfaced an IBM PC to a school
scoreboard and wrote the program to control it. The tough stuff was hobby,
the day job was not much better than minimum wage.

After over 10 years of office machine repair, I got a job at a cookie
factory as an industrial maintenance technician, $7.25/hr. production
workers at other plants in the area made more than that. I always
considered it valuable to take a low wage to gain experience, I felt there
was nothing wrong with working my way up. The cookie factory liked me, I
could make their machines run when no one else could, I was given raises
twice as fast as they told me I would when I got the job. So at the cookie
factory I went from $7.25/hr to over $9/hr in about 9 months. Other
industrial maintenance jobs wanted people with PLC experience. The cookie
factory didn't have PLC's. Most HR didn't realize that if I could teach
myself "C" and Assembly language, Ladder logic wouldn't be that tough for me
to learn.

I interviewed for a job, didn't get, I didn't know ladder logic, couldn't
just look it up on the internet then. So I bought a book to learn PLC's,
bought a broken Allen Bradley SLC100 with hand held programmer and self
teach guide, and started learning relay ladder logic programming. Then I
got an interview with an engineering company, the owner was the HR guy, he
recognized that what I had taught myself was related to the industrial
automation tasks he wanted someone to be able to do. So I started out at
$400/wk salary exempt, through many projects and challenges, I was over
double the salary within 2-1/2 to 3 years.

I currently have 7 years in engineering experience plus over 11 years as an
industrial electrical technician. I've had a lathe and drill press since my
teens and have owned mills too for around 15 years now.

I wasn't given an opportunity to develop most of my skills, I bought
equipment to gain the skills that are in demand, I took low wage jobs to get
the experience employers wanted. I did and learned much for no wage as
hobby projects. Same for my CNC experience, bought or converted machines
and taught myself, I've even written HPGL to G code converter programs in
Basic.

Now burger flippers think fast food is a career opportunity, it's a job to
put gas in the car while you gain some skills or get an education. Working
in fast food is barely better than a paper route for most. I know there are
managers and such that it is a career for, they should maker a livable wage,
but for school kids that get an entry level job, it's just some money while
preparing for a career.

If a person is worth the money, they should be able to find someone to pay
it without being forced to by the government or a union. I paid my dues and
gained the skills by investing my own time and money to educate myself. But
as the ultimate hypocrisy, Mother Jones thinks minimum wage should be $15/hr
while paying interns an equivalent of $6/hr.

RogerN

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 12:57:30 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

Not at all. Automation is quite capable of assembling your burger
without pickles if that's what you order. The food will not come
pre-made from some far away factory, the components will arrive the same
as they do now and will simply be prepared and assembled by machines
instead of the current low skill workers who usually screw up the order
anyway.

I still feel that costs are too high to accommodate choice and that
fast food will continue to reduce labor while automating the end store
with trucked, complete foods. Time will tell which of us is correct.

--
Make awkward sexual advances, not war.

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 8:01:19 PM UTC-8, Ignoramus15998 wrote:
On 2013-12-05, Pete C. wrote:



Larry Jaques wrote:



Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It

Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.



Not at all. Automation is quite capable of assembling your burger

without pickles if that's what you order. The food will not come

pre-made from some far away factory, the components will arrive the same

as they do now and will simply be prepared and assembled by machines

instead of the current low skill workers who usually screw up the order

anyway.



Exactly. At our McDonalds, they screw up 40-50% of my orders, in

various ways.



i

But like the moron you truly are, you continue to eat there.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:54:01 AM UTC-8, Ignoramus19407 wrote:
My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a

McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything

else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people

there working.



i

With McDonalds inability to give consumers the better food they want, I seriously doubt McDonalds will be around in 15 years.

If they are still around, it won't be serving the same kind of **** food they serve now.

" wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:19:33 PM UTC-5, jim wrote:


Sounds like you are saying the claim that a higher minimum wage

will produce high unemployment is bull****.

-

Post something about metalworking and I will reply. Don't you feel guilty posting about minimum wage in a metalworking usegroup?


Maybe he's posting about the only thing he knows. Being paid what
he's not worth.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Follow-up

Earth calling McDonalds -- Earth calling McDonalds


http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...otest/3890393/
snip
As fast food workers walked off the job in 100 cities
Thursday amid demands for higher pay, the fast food giant
thought it was a good idea to dish out some holiday tip
suggestions to its employees — like how much to tip your
massage therapist or pool cleaner.
Posted on its employee resource website, the now-deleted
suggestions, including one week's pay for your au pair, add
up to hundreds of dollars or more — pretty steep for
employees who largely earn just above minimum wage, NBC News
reports, though it notes the guide also said to tip based on
"your budget."
snip
Other helpful budget tips from McDonald's included its
suggestions that McDonald's employees get a second job and
sell their stuff to raise extra cash.
snip

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:18:25 -0600, Ignoramus28714
wrote:


Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.

A lot of people could, and do, hire illegal aliens. But a McDonalds
franchisee cannot, they are overseen very heavily.

Im well aware of the work arounds for such things.

I had a machine shop with 60+ latino workers.

They shared about 15 different social security numbers.

When the state would call about it..they would go back to McArther
park..spend 20 bucks..and get 15 different ones. Then they were good
for another year or more. This lasted 10 yrs that I know of.

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 13:02:11 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Howard Beal wrote:

Automation will advance regardless of what the minimum wage is. In the very
near future many manual
labor jobs will become obsolete, remember meter readers? The big question
that no one has an answer
for is what will all the displaced under educated workers do to earn a
living. The cost to society will be
great.

The problem is far worse than that actually. There is a current myth
that higher education will somehow eliminate the problem, but the
fundamental issue is not education, it is the fact that a smaller and
smaller percentage of the population is required to produce everything
the population needs. This means that you can have free higher ed. and
end up with soup kitchen lines full of PhDs with no jobs. What will
happen to wages for those high skilled jobs when there are 100 fully
qualified applicants for every available position? Can a Ph.D. engineer
operate a septic pumping truck better than a high school dropout? Will
that Ph.D. provide any advantage in finding a job when none are
available?

I know several Ph.Ds who ask "would you like fries with that?" and
happily so..there is no work for their job skills...


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 21:59:37 -0600, Ignoramus15998
wrote:

On 2013-12-05, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Ignoramus19407 wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely true. They already automate much of the drink dispensing,
much like starsucks uses super auto espresso machines that require no
skill to operate. All of these fast food / fast beverage places can
readily be automated to a much higher degree.

Beyond that, the minimum wage is nothing but a vote buying scam. Raising
the minimum wage simply triggers a cascade effect of economic
rebalancing such that the minimum wage worker is back to exactly the
same hours worked to buying power ratio as where they started after six
months to a year. The numbers on the pay check are larger, but it still
takes the same number of work hours to buy the same products as before.


A lot of long time restaurants and fast food places have closed around
here. Some were due to the downturn in new home construction, but some
just could no longer stay competitive and closed down. I saw another
one a few days ago. The property owner locked them out because they were
$26,000 behind on their lease payments. The prior tenant was a
Blockbuster store that went out of business.


Restaurants are constantly going out of business, this has been true
forever.

i

Airplanes have been falling out of the sky for a very long time as
well.

But when entire fleets start falling out of the sky..thats of some
concern..no?


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On 12/7/2013 6:25 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:


I know several Ph.Ds who ask "would you like fries with that?" and
happily so..there is no work for their job skills...

It's not a big wonder when their major was ancient Sumerian dialects.

Steve

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:27:39 -0700, SteveB
wrote:

On 12/7/2013 6:25 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:


I know several Ph.Ds who ask "would you like fries with that?" and
happily so..there is no work for their job skills...

It's not a big wonder when their major was ancient Sumerian dialects.

Steve

Or big demand careers like Elizabethan Poetry




--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:27:42 PM UTC-5, Gunner Asch wrote:





http://education.yahoo.net/articles/...ss_degrees.htm






http://blog.simplyhired.com/2013/07/...ees-today.html


I do not entirely agree with these two web sites. The first one has agriculture as the worst degree. But I met a dairy farmer whose son was quite bright. His high school teachers were trying to discourage him from getting a agriculture degree. But his father disagreed. His dairy sold milk in three states so he had to know business law as practised in three states, plus of course federal law. He had two tanker trucks so more to learn. His dairy is really a small business, so he needed to know the same stuff that the business grads had learned. He needed accounting, some chemistry, genetics, and a bunch more.

The second web site has a list of degrees that are good if you are going to work for someone. But are way too limited if you are going to work for yourself.

Dan

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:26:22 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:27:42 PM UTC-5, Gunner Asch wrote:





http://education.yahoo.net/articles/...ss_degrees.htm






http://blog.simplyhired.com/2013/07/...ees-today.html


I do not entirely agree with these two web sites. The first one has agriculture as the worst degree. But I met a dairy farmer whose son was quite bright. His high school teachers were trying to discourage him from getting a agriculture degree. But his father disagreed. His dairy sold milk in three states so he had to know business law as practised in three states, plus of course federal law. He had two tanker trucks so more to learn. His dairy is really a small business, so he needed to know the same stuff that the business grads had learned. He needed accounting, some chemistry, genetics, and a bunch more.

The second web site has a list of degrees that are good if you are going to work for someone. But are way too limited if you are going to work for yourself.

Dan

Years ago I had a clever young Airman worked for me in the Air Force.
He was taking night classes through the A.F. and wanted to get his
collage degree through the G.I. Bill. He wrote to the Personal
Managers of General Motors, General Electric and Exxon asking for
their advise on what degree would give him the best chance of getting
a position with their company. they all said the same thing - get a
degree in English.

Apparently the ability to read and write English properly is an asset
that companies are prepared to pay good money to get :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

"John B." wrote in message
...

Years ago I had a clever young Airman worked for me in the Air
Force.
He was taking night classes through the A.F. and wanted to get his
collage degree through the G.I. Bill. He wrote to the Personal
Managers of General Motors, General Electric and Exxon asking for
their advise on what degree would give him the best chance of
getting
a position with their company. they all said the same thing - get a
degree in English.

Apparently the ability to read and write English properly is an
asset
that companies are prepared to pay good money to get :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Inability to write clearly kept me from taking engineering positions
for many years. I could do the work but I couldn't explain it or write
an operators manual, or pass a tech writing class. I began posting
here as self-help therapy, to practice on people who don't write my
review.
jsw

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:29:01 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
.. .

Years ago I had a clever young Airman worked for me in the Air
Force.
He was taking night classes through the A.F. and wanted to get his
collage degree through the G.I. Bill. He wrote to the Personal
Managers of General Motors, General Electric and Exxon asking for
their advise on what degree would give him the best chance of
getting
a position with their company. they all said the same thing - get a
degree in English.

Apparently the ability to read and write English properly is an
asset
that companies are prepared to pay good money to get :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Inability to write clearly kept me from taking engineering positions
for many years. I could do the work but I couldn't explain it or write
an operators manual, or pass a tech writing class. I began posting
here as self-help therapy, to practice on people who don't write my
review.
jsw


??? You write well and nicely here.

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
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"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:29:01 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

Inability to write clearly kept me from taking engineering positions
for many years. I could do the work but I couldn't explain it or
write
an operators manual, or pass a tech writing class. I began posting
here as self-help therapy, to practice on people who don't write my
review.
jsw


??? You write well and nicely here.

Gunner


Lost NYC tourist: How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

Street musician: Practice, practice, practice!

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:03:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:29:01 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

Inability to write clearly kept me from taking engineering positions
for many years. I could do the work but I couldn't explain it or
write
an operators manual, or pass a tech writing class. I began posting
here as self-help therapy, to practice on people who don't write my
review.
jsw


??? You write well and nicely here.

Gunner


Lost NYC tourist: How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

Street musician: Practice, practice, practice!

True indeed.


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
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http://www.avast.com

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:05:06 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:


I recall hearing a Professor of History at the US Naval Academy
telling of having one of his students come back after graduation,
Of
all the parts of his education to become a Marine Officer, the one
class he found most relevant when in Afghanistan, was the class on
the
history of the Peloponnesian war. From that, he had gained an
introduction to tribal societies, their conflicts, and how they
tended
to work. Probably the only 'practical thing' he'd learned that
wasn't
a "military science".

Very interesting. That's one of the freebie books available on
Kindle
which I downloaded but haven't gotten around to reading yet. You
just
kicked its importance up by a notch or three.

http://classics.mit.edu/Thucydides/pelopwar.html

Xenophon may be useful too, but he's so boring it's hard to get
through.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1170

Patton wrote that he read Caesar to find out what areas of enemy
territory would be suitable for vehicles off-road.

jsw

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:06:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:05:06 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:


I recall hearing a Professor of History at the US Naval Academy
telling of having one of his students come back after graduation,
Of
all the parts of his education to become a Marine Officer, the one
class he found most relevant when in Afghanistan, was the class on
the
history of the Peloponnesian war. From that, he had gained an
introduction to tribal societies, their conflicts, and how they
tended
to work. Probably the only 'practical thing' he'd learned that
wasn't
a "military science".

Very interesting. That's one of the freebie books available on
Kindle
which I downloaded but haven't gotten around to reading yet. You
just
kicked its importance up by a notch or three.

http://classics.mit.edu/Thucydides/pelopwar.html

Xenophon may be useful too, but he's so boring it's hard to get
through.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1170

It might have been easier had the translator spoken English, oui?
sigh In the first paragraph, this sentence decided me against it.

"The elder, as it chanced, was already there, but Cyrus he must needs
send for from the province over which he had made him satrap, having
appointed him general moreover of all the forces that muster in the
plain of the Castolus."


Patton wrote that he read Caesar to find out what areas of enemy
territory would be suitable for vehicles off-road.

Interesting.

--
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud
was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
-- Anaïs Nin

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:06:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Xenophon may be useful too, but he's so boring it's hard to get
through.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1170

It might have been easier had the translator spoken English, oui?
sigh In the first paragraph, this sentence decided me against it.

"The elder, as it chanced, was already there, but Cyrus he must
needs
send for from the province over which he had made him satrap, having
appointed him general moreover of all the forces that muster in the
plain of the Castolus."


My sister said the original Greek was just as bad. Students read it
because the vocabulary and grammar are simple. Caesar is the same in
Latin; much easier for beginners than more literate authors like
Virgil, whom you decipher more than read.

Word-for-word translations of modern German are hardly less stilted
and confusing.
jsw