Just looking at parts and differences for semi-auto and full auto... Looks
like a full auto just lets the hammer go, the bolt cycles the hammer, when
you let off the trigger, the hammer is caught. For semi-auto, it looks like
the trigger releases the hammer, when the trigger is held, the disconnector
catches the hammer, when the trigger is released, the trigger blocks the
hammer and the disconnector releases. So it looks to me like a semi-auto
would fire full auto if you left the disconnector out, is that correct?

I'm not thinking about making a machine gun but couldn't help noticing it
looks like extra effort to turn an auto into a semi-auto. I wonder, if the
so called "assault rifles" are banned, people that have them undocumented
might as well make them full auto since they would be illegal anyway. I
don't have illegal guns, I have "Undocumented" guns.

RogerN

RogerN wrote:
Just looking at parts and differences for semi-auto and full auto... Looks
like a full auto just lets the hammer go, the bolt cycles the hammer, when
you let off the trigger, the hammer is caught. For semi-auto, it looks like
the trigger releases the hammer, when the trigger is held, the disconnector
catches the hammer, when the trigger is released, the trigger blocks the
hammer and the disconnector releases. So it looks to me like a semi-auto
would fire full auto if you left the disconnector out, is that correct?

I'm not thinking about making a machine gun but couldn't help noticing it
looks like extra effort to turn an auto into a semi-auto. I wonder, if the
so called "assault rifles" are banned, people that have them undocumented
might as well make them full auto since they would be illegal anyway. I
don't have illegal guns, I have "Undocumented" guns.

RogerN




Depends on the type of automatic action. If you're talking about an M-16
then you have it almost correct. If you leave the disconnecter out you
would get single shot. Reason being that the hammer would simply follow
the bolt and ride it.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk...ar-15-m16.html

The regulated part of the auto version is actually the auto-sear unit on
the right side in the lower animation.

--
Steve W.

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:12:05 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

RogerN wrote:
Just looking at parts and differences for semi-auto and full auto... Looks
like a full auto just lets the hammer go, the bolt cycles the hammer, when
you let off the trigger, the hammer is caught. For semi-auto, it looks like
the trigger releases the hammer, when the trigger is held, the disconnector
catches the hammer, when the trigger is released, the trigger blocks the
hammer and the disconnector releases. So it looks to me like a semi-auto
would fire full auto if you left the disconnector out, is that correct?

I'm not thinking about making a machine gun but couldn't help noticing it
looks like extra effort to turn an auto into a semi-auto. I wonder, if the
so called "assault rifles" are banned, people that have them undocumented
might as well make them full auto since they would be illegal anyway. I
don't have illegal guns, I have "Undocumented" guns.

RogerN




Depends on the type of automatic action. If you're talking about an M-16
then you have it almost correct. If you leave the disconnecter out you
would get single shot. Reason being that the hammer would simply follow
the bolt and ride it.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk...ar-15-m16.html

The regulated part of the auto version is actually the auto-sear unit on
the right side in the lower animation.
google lightening link like this one:
thehomegunsmith.com/pdf/fast_bunny.pdf

On Feb 19, 7:52*pm, "RogerN" wrote:
Just looking at parts and differences for semi-auto and full auto... *Looks
like a full auto just lets the hammer go, the bolt cycles the hammer, when
you let off the trigger, the hammer is caught. *For semi-auto, it looks like
the trigger releases the hammer, when the trigger is held, the disconnector
catches the hammer, when the trigger is released, the trigger blocks the
hammer and the disconnector *releases. *So it looks to me like a semi-auto
would fire full auto if you left the disconnector out, is that correct?

I'm not thinking about making a machine gun but couldn't help noticing it
looks like extra effort to turn an auto into a semi-auto. *I wonder, if the
so called "assault rifles" are banned, people that have them undocumented
might as well make them full auto since they would be illegal anyway. *I
don't have illegal guns, I have "Undocumented" guns.

RogerN

Depends on the design. Open-bolt slam-fire designs are the easiest to
convert since they're half-way to being a SMG anyway. That's why
they're not allowed to be designed and sold in the US anymore. Closed
bolt machinegun designs have various methods of holding the hammer or
striker cocked until the bolt is closed and locked, then the sear is
tripped and the gun fires, repeating until the trigger is released or
the gun is empty. Most semi-auto designs will either not work at all
if you pull the disconnector, will fire out of battery or will jam.
ATF doesn't want any easily converted designs on the market, indeed,
"easily converted semi-auto" is part of the definition of "machine
gun" in the law. ATF gets to decide what that phrase means. Last I
read, they considered 8-10 hours in a fully equipped machine shop to
fit that definition. All they have to do is get a gun to double with
one pull of the trigger and you go to jail. And with some guns, its
not creating full-auto fire that's the real problem, it's getting the
gun to stop. Nothing to be messing with without the appropriate
license. Used to be, back in a gentler age, they'd settle for
confiscation of the gun and a stiff warning. These days, it's pretty
much jail AND confiscation of whatever they can get their hands on.
Anti-drug and anti-terrorist laws have a lot more bite. All it takes
is somebody talking within earshot of somebody with ATF connections
and you could be the subject of a serious investigation. Was a case
just a few years back where a guy had some M16 parts in his AR, he
loaned it out to a friend, it doubled repeatedly at the range, ATF got
into it and he was charged with transferring an unregistered
machinegun to his buddy as well as having one. Went to jail, cost him
a bundle and he'll never legally own a gun again. How trustworthy are
your friends? How remote is your range? Somebody can hear it, you
can bet on it. Sound of full-auto will draw law enforcement like a
magnet.

Stan

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013 20:52:49 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:


Just looking at parts and differences for semi-auto and full auto... Looks
like a full auto just lets the hammer go, the bolt cycles the hammer, when
you let off the trigger, the hammer is caught. For semi-auto, it looks like
the trigger releases the hammer, when the trigger is held, the disconnector
catches the hammer, when the trigger is released, the trigger blocks the
hammer and the disconnector releases. So it looks to me like a semi-auto
would fire full auto if you left the disconnector out, is that correct?

On some..some types of actions like the Sten..kinda sorta. Others..not
so easy. Turning them off before the magazine is empy can be the hard
part.

I'm not thinking about making a machine gun but couldn't help noticing it
looks like extra effort to turn an auto into a semi-auto. I wonder, if the
so called "assault rifles" are banned, people that have them undocumented
might as well make them full auto since they would be illegal anyway. I
don't have illegal guns, I have "Undocumented" guns.

RogerN



The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

"Steve W." wrote in message ...

snip

Depends on the type of automatic action. If you're talking about an M-16
then you have it almost correct. If you leave the disconnecter out you
would get single shot. Reason being that the hammer would simply follow the
bolt and ride it.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk...ar-15-m16.html

The regulated part of the auto version is actually the auto-sear unit on
the right side in the lower animation.

--
Steve W.

That's what I was wondering about, it would seem to depend on how fast the
bolt gets out of the hammer's path, so you have the bolt going pretty fast,
the hammer going a bit faster as more bolt clears, then the bolt coming to a
sudden stop, that should cause the hammer to have an impact on the firing
pin but maybe not enough to fire. I haven't got the animation to load yet
(slow internet) but I thought it would be better if the hammer was held back
until the bolt was forward.

RogerN

"Stanley Schaefer" wrote in message
...
snip
Nothing to be messing with without the appropriate
license. Used to be, back in a gentler age, they'd settle for
confiscation of the gun and a stiff warning. These days, it's pretty
much jail AND confiscation of whatever they can get their hands on.
Anti-drug and anti-terrorist laws have a lot more bite. All it takes
is somebody talking within earshot of somebody with ATF connections
and you could be the subject of a serious investigation. Was a case
just a few years back where a guy had some M16 parts in his AR, he
loaned it out to a friend, it doubled repeatedly at the range, ATF got
into it and he was charged with transferring an unregistered
machinegun to his buddy as well as having one. Went to jail, cost him
a bundle and he'll never legally own a gun again. How trustworthy are
your friends? How remote is your range? Somebody can hear it, you
can bet on it. Sound of full-auto will draw law enforcement like a
magnet.

Stan

That's why I'm not planning to make it full auto, though it does sound fun.

My friend was telling me about a guy they go shooting with that can stiff
arm most rifles and get them to fire like an auto. He holds his trigger
finger still and pulls the trigger up against it, recoil makes his finger
release the trigger and his other arm is pulling the trigger back to his
finger. I wonder if he's been investigated when people hear "machine gun
fire".

But if the anti-gun crowd makes all semi-auto's illegal, and a person is
willing to be illegal for their rights, might as well go all out, plus a
silencer to prevent the gun from telling on itself as loudly...

RogerN

On 2/20/2013 4:45 PM, RogerN wrote:

That's why I'm not planning to make it full auto, though it does sound fun.

My friend was telling me about a guy they go shooting with that can stiff
arm most rifles and get them to fire like an auto. He holds his trigger
finger still and pulls the trigger up against it, recoil makes his finger
release the trigger and his other arm is pulling the trigger back to his
finger. I wonder if he's been investigated when people hear "machine gun
fire".

RogerN



A long time ago I used to demo the M-60 - as a pistol.

It's heavy as hell (26 pounds without ammo) but once that first round
goes off, it holds itself up...

Impressive, but not terribly accurate that way.

RogerN wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message ...

snip
Depends on the type of automatic action. If you're talking about an M-16
then you have it almost correct. If you leave the disconnecter out you
would get single shot. Reason being that the hammer would simply follow the
bolt and ride it.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk...ar-15-m16.html

The regulated part of the auto version is actually the auto-sear unit on
the right side in the lower animation.

--
Steve W.

That's what I was wondering about, it would seem to depend on how fast the
bolt gets out of the hammer's path, so you have the bolt going pretty fast,
the hammer going a bit faster as more bolt clears, then the bolt coming to a
sudden stop, that should cause the hammer to have an impact on the firing
pin but maybe not enough to fire. I haven't got the animation to load yet
(slow internet) but I thought it would be better if the hammer was held back
until the bolt was forward.

RogerN



Bolt speed doesn't make a difference in this area. The hammer would
still ride it down without enough force to set off the primer.

The hands down easiest auto to make would be an open bolt design. On
those the firing pin is fixed on the bolt face. You cock it by pulling
the bolt back and latching it on the sear. When you pull the trigger the
spring slams the bolt forward, as it moves it strips a round out of the
magazine, chambers it and just as the bolt closes the firing pin hits
the primer and the round fires. The recoil slams the bolt back to repeat
the cycle. The cyclic rate is VERY high. You can slow it down using
heavier bolt weight, gas porting to bleed off some pressure and playing
with the spring weights.

The easiest "conversion" candidate would be a blowback operated action.
Not much to do to get them to work.

--
Steve W.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:20:35 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

RogerN wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message ...

snip
Depends on the type of automatic action. If you're talking about an M-16
then you have it almost correct. If you leave the disconnecter out you
would get single shot. Reason being that the hammer would simply follow the
bolt and ride it.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk...ar-15-m16.html

The regulated part of the auto version is actually the auto-sear unit on
the right side in the lower animation.

--
Steve W.

That's what I was wondering about, it would seem to depend on how fast the
bolt gets out of the hammer's path, so you have the bolt going pretty fast,
the hammer going a bit faster as more bolt clears, then the bolt coming to a
sudden stop, that should cause the hammer to have an impact on the firing
pin but maybe not enough to fire. I haven't got the animation to load yet
(slow internet) but I thought it would be better if the hammer was held back
until the bolt was forward.

RogerN



Bolt speed doesn't make a difference in this area. The hammer would
still ride it down without enough force to set off the primer.

The hands down easiest auto to make would be an open bolt design. On
those the firing pin is fixed on the bolt face. You cock it by pulling
the bolt back and latching it on the sear. When you pull the trigger the
spring slams the bolt forward, as it moves it strips a round out of the
magazine, chambers it and just as the bolt closes the firing pin hits
the primer and the round fires. The recoil slams the bolt back to repeat
the cycle. The cyclic rate is VERY high. You can slow it down using
heavier bolt weight, gas porting to bleed off some pressure and playing
with the spring weights.

The easiest "conversion" candidate would be a blowback operated action.
Not much to do to get them to work.

As in the case of my 57-year-old, heavily used High Standard
Supermatic .22. When the sear eventually wore over, I was treated to
an eight-or ten-shot burst, which ended up pointed almost at the range
ceiling and which stopped the firing by everyone else at the range,
for an agonizing minute.

It sure was quick. Brrrrrpp! g

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:45:51 -0600
"RogerN" wrote:

snip
My friend was telling me about a guy they go shooting with that can stiff
arm most rifles and get them to fire like an auto. He holds his trigger
finger still and pulls the trigger up against it, recoil makes his finger
release the trigger and his other arm is pulling the trigger back to his
finger.

An article on "bump stocks" just ran in my local paper:

http://news.yahoo.com/add-ons-let-se...201305718.html

"A bump stock fits over a rifle's "buffer tube," replacing the gun's
shoulder rest. A "support step" attached to the pistol grip partially
covers the trigger opening, preventing contact with the finger. By
holding the pistol grip with one hand and pushing forward on the barrel
with the other, the finger comes in contact with the trigger. The
recoil causes the gun to buck back and forth, "bumping" the trigger..."

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:20:35 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

RogerN wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message ...

snip
Depends on the type of automatic action. If you're talking about an M-16
then you have it almost correct. If you leave the disconnecter out you
would get single shot. Reason being that the hammer would simply follow the
bolt and ride it.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk...ar-15-m16.html

The regulated part of the auto version is actually the auto-sear unit on
the right side in the lower animation.

--
Steve W.
That's what I was wondering about, it would seem to depend on how fast the
bolt gets out of the hammer's path, so you have the bolt going pretty fast,
the hammer going a bit faster as more bolt clears, then the bolt coming to a
sudden stop, that should cause the hammer to have an impact on the firing
pin but maybe not enough to fire. I haven't got the animation to load yet
(slow internet) but I thought it would be better if the hammer was held back
until the bolt was forward.

RogerN


Bolt speed doesn't make a difference in this area. The hammer would
still ride it down without enough force to set off the primer.

The hands down easiest auto to make would be an open bolt design. On
those the firing pin is fixed on the bolt face. You cock it by pulling
the bolt back and latching it on the sear. When you pull the trigger the
spring slams the bolt forward, as it moves it strips a round out of the
magazine, chambers it and just as the bolt closes the firing pin hits
the primer and the round fires. The recoil slams the bolt back to repeat
the cycle. The cyclic rate is VERY high. You can slow it down using
heavier bolt weight, gas porting to bleed off some pressure and playing
with the spring weights.

The easiest "conversion" candidate would be a blowback operated action.
Not much to do to get them to work.

As in the case of my 57-year-old, heavily used High Standard
Supermatic .22. When the sear eventually wore over, I was treated to
an eight-or ten-shot burst, which ended up pointed almost at the range
ceiling and which stopped the firing by everyone else at the range,
for an agonizing minute.

It sure was quick. Brrrrrpp! g


Yep. Unregulated auto-fire can really burn up ammo (and barrels!)



--
Steve W.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:00:26 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:20:35 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

RogerN wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message ...

snip
Depends on the type of automatic action. If you're talking about an M-16
then you have it almost correct. If you leave the disconnecter out you
would get single shot. Reason being that the hammer would simply follow the
bolt and ride it.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk...ar-15-m16.html

The regulated part of the auto version is actually the auto-sear unit on
the right side in the lower animation.

--
Steve W.
That's what I was wondering about, it would seem to depend on how fast the
bolt gets out of the hammer's path, so you have the bolt going pretty fast,
the hammer going a bit faster as more bolt clears, then the bolt coming to a
sudden stop, that should cause the hammer to have an impact on the firing
pin but maybe not enough to fire. I haven't got the animation to load yet
(slow internet) but I thought it would be better if the hammer was held back
until the bolt was forward.

RogerN


Bolt speed doesn't make a difference in this area. The hammer would
still ride it down without enough force to set off the primer.

The hands down easiest auto to make would be an open bolt design. On
those the firing pin is fixed on the bolt face. You cock it by pulling
the bolt back and latching it on the sear. When you pull the trigger the
spring slams the bolt forward, as it moves it strips a round out of the
magazine, chambers it and just as the bolt closes the firing pin hits
the primer and the round fires. The recoil slams the bolt back to repeat
the cycle. The cyclic rate is VERY high. You can slow it down using
heavier bolt weight, gas porting to bleed off some pressure and playing
with the spring weights.

The easiest "conversion" candidate would be a blowback operated action.
Not much to do to get them to work.

As in the case of my 57-year-old, heavily used High Standard
Supermatic .22. When the sear eventually wore over, I was treated to
an eight-or ten-shot burst, which ended up pointed almost at the range
ceiling and which stopped the firing by everyone else at the range,
for an agonizing minute.

It sure was quick. Brrrrrpp! g


Yep. Unregulated auto-fire can really burn up ammo (and barrels!)

And now you know the REAL reason they won't allow "Gangsta Style" at a
firing range.

Having the muzzle climb Up is a fairly safe direction, but having it
spin you around Sideways could be Really, Most Sincerely Bad.

"Steve W."
Bolt speed doesn't make a difference in this
area. The hammer would still ride it down
without enough force to set off the primer.

The hands down easiest auto to make would be an
open bolt design. On those the firing pin is
fixed on the bolt face. You cock it by pulling
the bolt back and latching it on the sear. When
you pull the trigger the spring slams the bolt
forward, as it moves it strips a round out of
the magazine, chambers it and just as the bolt
closes the firing pin hits the primer and the
round fires. The recoil slams the bolt back to
repeat the cycle. The cyclic rate is VERY high.
You can slow it down using heavier bolt weight,
gas porting to bleed off some pressure and
playing with the spring weights.

The easiest "conversion" candidate would be a
blowback operated action.
Not much to do to get them to work.

--
Steve W.


This sounds like the 20mm cannons on the A-1
Skyraider! I spent
a year loading these and it was always exciting
reloading these
cannons. If the bolt sear pin breaks off when
charging the bolt the
cannon runs till empty... only way to stop it when
you charge it
is to jam a screwdriver through the belt....
quickly .. The safety
was put in after the bolt was charged. Then it
was up to the
guys on the arming pad to deal with taking it out.
;)}
pdk

On Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:45:51 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

"Stanley Schaefer" wrote in message
...
snip
Nothing to be messing with without the appropriate
license. Used to be, back in a gentler age, they'd settle for
confiscation of the gun and a stiff warning. These days, it's pretty
much jail AND confiscation of whatever they can get their hands on.
Anti-drug and anti-terrorist laws have a lot more bite. All it takes
is somebody talking within earshot of somebody with ATF connections
and you could be the subject of a serious investigation. Was a case
just a few years back where a guy had some M16 parts in his AR, he
loaned it out to a friend, it doubled repeatedly at the range, ATF got
into it and he was charged with transferring an unregistered
machinegun to his buddy as well as having one. Went to jail, cost him
a bundle and he'll never legally own a gun again. How trustworthy are
your friends? How remote is your range? Somebody can hear it, you
can bet on it. Sound of full-auto will draw law enforcement like a
magnet.

Stan

That's why I'm not planning to make it full auto, though it does sound fun.

My friend was telling me about a guy they go shooting with that can stiff
arm most rifles and get them to fire like an auto. He holds his trigger
finger still and pulls the trigger up against it, recoil makes his finger
release the trigger and his other arm is pulling the trigger back to his
finger. I wonder if he's been investigated when people hear "machine gun
fire".

But if the anti-gun crowd makes all semi-auto's illegal, and a person is
willing to be illegal for their rights, might as well go all out, plus a
silencer to prevent the gun from telling on itself as loudly...

RogerN


And Bump Fire and Slide Fire stocks give the next best thiing to full
auto. And makes shooting rather expensive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE

And for $369..you too can have a new plastic toy.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/slid...-device-ar-15/


The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:45:51 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:
snip

But if the anti-gun crowd makes all semi-auto's illegal, and a person is
willing to be illegal for their rights, might as well go all out, plus a
silencer to prevent the gun from telling on itself as loudly...

RogerN


And Bump Fire and Slide Fire stocks give the next best thiing to full
auto. And makes shooting rather expensive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE

And for $369..you too can have a new plastic toy.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/slid...-device-ar-15/

I saw some homemade bump fire type stock modifications. That would be a fun
novelty to play with a little bit but I'd prefer it on the 22LR version. A
local gun dealer has 5.56 X 45 for $8 per 20, I bought their limit of 2
boxes plus a bag of brass for reloading, if I can find some dies in stock...

RogerN

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 08:31:55 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

On Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:45:51 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:
snip

But if the anti-gun crowd makes all semi-auto's illegal, and a person is
willing to be illegal for their rights, might as well go all out, plus a
silencer to prevent the gun from telling on itself as loudly...

RogerN


And Bump Fire and Slide Fire stocks give the next best thiing to full
auto. And makes shooting rather expensive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE

And for $369..you too can have a new plastic toy.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/slid...-device-ar-15/

I saw some homemade bump fire type stock modifications. That would be a fun
novelty to play with a little bit but I'd prefer it on the 22LR version. A
local gun dealer has 5.56 X 45 for $8 per 20, I bought their limit of 2
boxes plus a bag of brass for reloading, if I can find some dies in stock...

RogerN

I may have spare dies. Small base for ARs?

Let me know and Ill check.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie