I'm wondering why the hell people who don't overlap one-another's market
still have a need to "compete" with others. Mostly I'm talking about
building up one's image at the cost of belittling another's.

I had an experience. I am not a "precision machinist" by any stretch.
My primary offering to my customers is innovation, and machines that work
to improve their productivity.

Last year, I built a press and explosives composition mold for a friend
way-far out west. When he started using it, he was using pressures
several TIMES higher than what I had designed it for (and what he spec'd
out), and the mold cavity liners were slipping a little bit on ejection
of the product. So I made him a liner retainer plate that would hold
against that extra pressure. It has 54 cavity holes and 74 counter-sunk
bolt holes in an array that will surround all the cavities and hold the
plate against the liner flanges (they look a bit like a flanged oilite
bushing, but made of Acetal). I machined the cavity holes, and drilled
the bolt holes in a single clamp-up on CNC.

His task was to take the mold body to a local machinst (who only normally
repairs auto parts, but has a couple of general-purpose machines), and
have matching holes drilled and tapped to fit the plate. The guy said he
could do it, and even had "CNC software" so he could match the array
exactly.

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were
"all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers", and he was going
to have to take the plate to a better-equipped shop to have all the holes
probe-plotted to make sure his holes lined up. His new price reflected
that. He also told my friend that "next time, you need to hire someone
who knows what he's doing." (ouch!)

So, the liners have finally worn out. Expected by both of us. They were
made of acetal, for pressures far lower than what he is now using. We're
going to change to a high-lubricity brass. He sent the whole mold back
for me to re-line.

I've been chasing this inaccuracy problem ever since his first phone call
about it, and could never replicate anything remotely like it. My only
issue with my machine is poor surface finish, because I have yet to
rebuild my spindle. But when I got the mold, the first thing I did was
take it apart and start measuring. I deliberately did not refer to my
drawings or the CAM files. I just started manually measuring holes,
center distances, and diagonals all over the plate.

Everything is dead-on to within a half-thou in every direction (the best
my measuring tools will do for distances larger than 2"). There are no
center-to-center variations, no cumulative changes across the length or
breadth of the plate, no out-of-square condition... nothin', zip, nada.

Then I checked the drawings and CAM files. They exactly matched the
physical part.

He and I don't compete; we're fifteen states apart and do different
things. Maybe he thinks we do.

Why? Why do people do this crap? Is it just the bux, or is it trying to
build themselves up in their own eyes?

Damn. Well, at least I know my mill isn't misbehaving, after all.

LLoyd

Some people believe they look better, when they bad mouth others. To me, it
just makes them look like bad mouthers.

When I was about 19, I took my Dad's car to a muffler repair place. They did
the warranty work, which had originally been done by another store that was
no longer there. They spent the time knocking the "mickey mouse outfit" and
"no good" guys at the other store.

Shortly after that, I needed my phone line repaired. They sent out a guy,
who climbed up the ladder and found some damage. Being cooperative, I gave
him an opening "Was it the no good guys on the other shift, the mickey mouse
outfit?" or some thing I said. I hope to always rememeber his reply. Old
guy, on a ladder, looking down from the wire.

"Never knock your fellow worker!"

And, in the decades since then, I have tried not to.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I'm wondering why the hell people who don't overlap one-another's market
still have a need to "compete" with others. Mostly I'm talking about
building up one's image at the cost of belittling another's.

I had an experience. I am not a "precision machinist" by any stretch.
My primary offering to my customers is innovation, and machines that work
to improve their productivity.

Last year, I built a press and explosives composition mold for a friend
way-far out west. When he started using it, he was using pressures
several TIMES higher than what I had designed it for (and what he spec'd
out), and the mold cavity liners were slipping a little bit on ejection
of the product. So I made him a liner retainer plate that would hold
against that extra pressure. It has 54 cavity holes and 74 counter-sunk
bolt holes in an array that will surround all the cavities and hold the
plate against the liner flanges (they look a bit like a flanged oilite
bushing, but made of Acetal). I machined the cavity holes, and drilled
the bolt holes in a single clamp-up on CNC.

His task was to take the mold body to a local machinst (who only normally
repairs auto parts, but has a couple of general-purpose machines), and
have matching holes drilled and tapped to fit the plate. The guy said he
could do it, and even had "CNC software" so he could match the array
exactly.

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were
"all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers", and he was going
to have to take the plate to a better-equipped shop to have all the holes
probe-plotted to make sure his holes lined up. His new price reflected
that. He also told my friend that "next time, you need to hire someone
who knows what he's doing." (ouch!)

So, the liners have finally worn out. Expected by both of us. They were
made of acetal, for pressures far lower than what he is now using. We're
going to change to a high-lubricity brass. He sent the whole mold back
for me to re-line.

I've been chasing this inaccuracy problem ever since his first phone call
about it, and could never replicate anything remotely like it. My only
issue with my machine is poor surface finish, because I have yet to
rebuild my spindle. But when I got the mold, the first thing I did was
take it apart and start measuring. I deliberately did not refer to my
drawings or the CAM files. I just started manually measuring holes,
center distances, and diagonals all over the plate.

Everything is dead-on to within a half-thou in every direction (the best
my measuring tools will do for distances larger than 2"). There are no
center-to-center variations, no cumulative changes across the length or
breadth of the plate, no out-of-square condition... nothin', zip, nada.

Then I checked the drawings and CAM files. They exactly matched the
physical part.

He and I don't compete; we're fifteen states apart and do different
things. Maybe he thinks we do.

Why? Why do people do this crap? Is it just the bux, or is it trying to
build themselves up in their own eyes?

Damn. Well, at least I know my mill isn't misbehaving, after all.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I'm wondering why the hell people who don't overlap one-another's market
still have a need to "compete" with others. Mostly I'm talking about
building up one's image at the cost of belittling another's.

I had an experience. I am not a "precision machinist" by any stretch.
My primary offering to my customers is innovation, and machines that work
to improve their productivity.

Last year, I built a press and explosives composition mold for a friend
way-far out west. When he started using it, he was using pressures
several TIMES higher than what I had designed it for (and what he spec'd
out), and the mold cavity liners were slipping a little bit on ejection
of the product. So I made him a liner retainer plate that would hold
against that extra pressure. It has 54 cavity holes and 74 counter-sunk
bolt holes in an array that will surround all the cavities and hold the
plate against the liner flanges (they look a bit like a flanged oilite
bushing, but made of Acetal). I machined the cavity holes, and drilled
the bolt holes in a single clamp-up on CNC.

His task was to take the mold body to a local machinst (who only normally
repairs auto parts, but has a couple of general-purpose machines), and
have matching holes drilled and tapped to fit the plate. The guy said he
could do it, and even had "CNC software" so he could match the array
exactly.

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were
"all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers", and he was going
to have to take the plate to a better-equipped shop to have all the holes
probe-plotted to make sure his holes lined up. His new price reflected
that. He also told my friend that "next time, you need to hire someone
who knows what he's doing." (ouch!)

So, the liners have finally worn out. Expected by both of us. They were
made of acetal, for pressures far lower than what he is now using. We're
going to change to a high-lubricity brass. He sent the whole mold back
for me to re-line.

I've been chasing this inaccuracy problem ever since his first phone call
about it, and could never replicate anything remotely like it. My only
issue with my machine is poor surface finish, because I have yet to
rebuild my spindle. But when I got the mold, the first thing I did was
take it apart and start measuring. I deliberately did not refer to my
drawings or the CAM files. I just started manually measuring holes,
center distances, and diagonals all over the plate.

Everything is dead-on to within a half-thou in every direction (the best
my measuring tools will do for distances larger than 2"). There are no
center-to-center variations, no cumulative changes across the length or
breadth of the plate, no out-of-square condition... nothin', zip, nada.

Then I checked the drawings and CAM files. They exactly matched the
physical part.

He and I don't compete; we're fifteen states apart and do different
things. Maybe he thinks we do.

Why? Why do people do this crap? Is it just the bux, or is it trying to
build themselves up in their own eyes?

Damn. Well, at least I know my mill isn't misbehaving, after all.

LLoyd


There may be a tendency for some people to be too quick to point out the
apparent incompetence of others since they think that shows how superior
they are.

But more specifically, precision measurment of a complicated piece is
something that has to be done slowly and carefully -- with a lot of
thought -- even if you are using a CMM. This other machinist had no
incentive to be careful with these measurments. Had this been his part, I am
sure he would have redone those measurements several times before rejecting
the part. As it was, he probably he had some problem with his metrology
setup, or his assistant, but he had no reason to want to track down any
problem.

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:46:27 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Lloyd I'm wondering why the hell people who don't overlap one-
Lloyd another's market still have a need to "compete" with others.
Lloyd Mostly I'm talking about building up one's image at the cost
Lloyd of belittling another's.

I don't understand. Can you be more specific, Lloyd?

Lloyd Winston, you're a mook.

Lloyd You don't perceive how oddball, eccentric, and totally
Lloyd IMPRACTICAL your waste-of-energy refrigerator-dehumidifier is.
Lloyd You're like the Walter Minto of energy conservation!

Lloyd Why? Why do people do this crap? Is it just the bux,
Lloyd or is it trying to build themselves up in their own eyes?

I don't know why that is, Lloyd.
Probably a manifestation of deep - seated insecurity.



--Winston

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Snip...

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were
"all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers",

Snip...

The answer is pretty clear. That "machinist"
couldn't measure anything with better than
a 30 thou accuracy.

Winston fired this volley in
:

I don't know why that is, Lloyd.

So, on the one hand we have a preposterously wasteful suggestion made. A
likeness to a well-known someone else who made equally preposterous (and
similar) technical suggestions was stated.

Then there's the deep-seated insecurity thing about stashing, rehashing,
mentally reviewing, and never forgetting the slightest of slights. It's
called "holding a grudge", and usually indicates an unsettled mind.

vs.

On the gripping hand, we have a part with no observable defects that
matches its design and works as intended, but is claimed by the examiner
to be poorly made by someone who doesn't "know what they're doing". That
was a deliberate attempt to damage someone's business by discrediting
their skills.

Yeah... that's a 'balanced comparison', to be sure, Winston (in a goofy,
aberrant-mind sort of way.)

(geesh!)

LLoyd

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:46:27 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I'm wondering why the hell people who don't overlap one-another's market
still have a need to "compete" with others. Mostly I'm talking about
building up one's image at the cost of belittling another's.

....

His new price reflected
that.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One possibility I haven't seen mentioned is that the guy under-quoted
the job and needed an excuse to increase the price.


--
Ned Simmons

Ned Simmons fired this volley in
:

One possibility I haven't seen mentioned is that the guy under-quoted
the job and needed an excuse to increase the price.

That could be it. Embarassment over not being able to do it for the price,
so making up an excuse.

I didn't think of that one.

Lloyd

On 2012-08-23, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ned Simmons fired this volley in
:

One possibility I haven't seen mentioned is that the guy under-quoted
the job and needed an excuse to increase the price.

That could be it. Embarassment over not being able to do it for the price,
so making up an excuse.

I didn't think of that one.

This would be my most likely guess also.

i

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:18:18 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Winston fired this volley in
:

I don't know why that is, Lloyd.

So, on the one hand we have a preposterously wasteful suggestion made.

No, it's:

Lloyd "oddball, eccentric, and totally IMPRACTICAL", remember?

I agree that it is oddball and eccentric.
It is neither wasteful, impractical or preposterous, however.

A likeness to a well-known someone else who made equally preposterous
(and similar) technical suggestions was stated.

Then there's the deep-seated insecurity thing about stashing, rehashing,
mentally reviewing, and never forgetting the slightest of slights.

Your unwarranted slight is forgiven, Lloyd.

--Winston

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:54:44 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Snip...

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were
"all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers",

Snip...

The answer is pretty clear. That "machinist"
couldn't measure anything with better than
a 30 thou accuracy.

Or he was looking for a way to charge the snot out of the job.

Which is something Ive found more than once. I refused to do service
for 2 companies for doing something like this to other clients of mine
over the past 15 yrs.

Both times..the issue came up..I was called in to diagnose a "bad
machine" and I took it very very seriously.

I found the 2 companies were trying to ass**** the client for more
money..in one case close to $100k..the other..for $25k

When I went to the owner of the companies directly..they both got all
slippery and weasely at which point..I told them both that the jig was
up..Id written a formal report of my findings.....and they needed to
find someone else to fix their machines for them...as I would not work
for a crook nor a varmint. Ever.

I lost a fair amount of money over the years by doing that...but I
have my pride and sense of self worth chugging along just fine.

Both went out of business about 7 yrs ago....and bad cess be to both
of them

Gunner

One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not
agree that "violence begets violence." I told him that it is my
earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure
- and in some cases I have - that any man who offers violence to his
fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.

- Jeff Cooper

On 8/23/2012 1:34 AM, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:54:44 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Snip...

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were
"all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers",

Snip...

The answer is pretty clear. That "machinist"
couldn't measure anything with better than
a 30 thou accuracy.

Or he was looking for a way to charge the snot out of the job.

Which is something Ive found more than once. I refused to do service
for 2 companies for doing something like this to other clients of mine
over the past 15 yrs.

Both times..the issue came up..I was called in to diagnose a "bad
machine" and I took it very very seriously.

I found the 2 companies were trying to ass**** the client for more
money..in one case close to $100k..the other..for $25k

When I went to the owner of the companies directly..they both got all
slippery and weasely at which point..I told them both that the jig was
up..Id written a formal report of my findings.....and they needed to
find someone else to fix their machines for them...as I would not work
for a crook nor a varmint. Ever.

I lost a fair amount of money over the years by doing that...but I
have my pride and sense of self worth chugging along just fine.

Both went out of business about 7 yrs ago....and bad cess be to both
of them

Gunner

One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not
agree that "violence begets violence." I told him that it is my
earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure
- and in some cases I have - that any man who offers violence to his
fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.

- Jeff Cooper


Over the years I've seen every unethical person go down. Some faster
than others but it eventually catches up with them. It never pays to
lie to or cheat anyone.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com Inscribed thus:

I'm wondering why the hell people who don't overlap one-another's
market
still have a need to "compete" with others. Mostly I'm talking about
building up one's image at the cost of belittling another's.

I had an experience. I am not a "precision machinist" by any stretch.
My primary offering to my customers is innovation, and machines that
work to improve their productivity.

Last year, I built a press and explosives composition mold for a
friend
way-far out west. When he started using it, he was using pressures
several TIMES higher than what I had designed it for (and what he
spec'd out), and the mold cavity liners were slipping a little bit on
ejection
of the product. So I made him a liner retainer plate that would hold
against that extra pressure. It has 54 cavity holes and 74
counter-sunk bolt holes in an array that will surround all the
cavities and hold the plate against the liner flanges (they look a bit
like a flanged oilite
bushing, but made of Acetal). I machined the cavity holes, and
drilled the bolt holes in a single clamp-up on CNC.

His task was to take the mold body to a local machinst (who only
normally repairs auto parts, but has a couple of general-purpose
machines), and
have matching holes drilled and tapped to fit the plate. The guy said
he could do it, and even had "CNC software" so he could match the
array exactly.

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were
"all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers", and he was
going to have to take the plate to a better-equipped shop to have all
the holes
probe-plotted to make sure his holes lined up. His new price
reflected
that. He also told my friend that "next time, you need to hire
someone who knows what he's doing." (ouch!)

You have come across the "how to buck up the price and make work for a
mate" syndrome !

A common opportunist trick... Quite dishonest !

So, the liners have finally worn out. Expected by both of us. They
were made of acetal, for pressures far lower than what he is now
using. We're
going to change to a high-lubricity brass. He sent the whole mold
back for me to re-line.

I've been chasing this inaccuracy problem ever since his first phone
call
about it, and could never replicate anything remotely like it. My
only issue with my machine is poor surface finish, because I have yet
to
rebuild my spindle. But when I got the mold, the first thing I did
was
take it apart and start measuring. I deliberately did not refer to my
drawings or the CAM files. I just started manually measuring holes,
center distances, and diagonals all over the plate.

Everything is dead-on to within a half-thou in every direction (the
best
my measuring tools will do for distances larger than 2"). There are
no center-to-center variations, no cumulative changes across the
length or breadth of the plate, no out-of-square condition... nothin',
zip, nada.

Then I checked the drawings and CAM files. They exactly matched the
physical part.

He and I don't compete; we're fifteen states apart and do different
things. Maybe he thinks we do.

Why? Why do people do this crap? Is it just the bux, or is it trying
to build themselves up in their own eyes?

Damn. Well, at least I know my mill isn't misbehaving, after all.

LLoyd

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Over the years I've seen every unethical person go down. Some faster
than others but it eventually catches up with them. It never pays to
lie to or cheat anyone.

We've been dealing with a lie and a cheat in our industry here in MN,
trying to take everybody down. Looks like the tables turned on him
this year, haven't seen many tears over his woes.

Karl

On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 19:52:43 +0100, Baron wrote:

You have come across the "how to buck up the price and make work for a
mate" syndrome !

It generates business for the originator as well.

When adjoining neighbors have landscape work done by
'mobile entrepreneurs', the fence bordering our property
always gets kicked in, accidentally.

--Winston

On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 01:53:16 -0400, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 8/23/2012 1:34 AM, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:54:44 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Snip...

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were
"all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers",

Snip...

The answer is pretty clear. That "machinist" couldn't measure
anything with better than a 30 thou accuracy.

Or he was looking for a way to charge the snot out of the job.

Which is something Ive found more than once. I refused to do service
for 2 companies for doing something like this to other clients of mine
over the past 15 yrs.

Both times..the issue came up..I was called in to diagnose a "bad
machine" and I took it very very seriously.

I found the 2 companies were trying to ass**** the client for more
money..in one case close to $100k..the other..for $25k

When I went to the owner of the companies directly..they both got all
slippery and weasely at which point..I told them both that the jig was
up..Id written a formal report of my findings.....and they needed to
find someone else to fix their machines for them...as I would not work
for a crook nor a varmint. Ever.

I lost a fair amount of money over the years by doing that...but I have
my pride and sense of self worth chugging along just fine.

Both went out of business about 7 yrs ago....and bad cess be to both of
them

Gunner

One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not
agree that "violence begets violence." I told him that it is my earnest
endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure - and in
some cases I have - that any man who offers violence to his fellow
citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.

- Jeff Cooper


Over the years I've seen every unethical person go down. Some faster
than others but it eventually catches up with them. It never pays to
lie to or cheat anyone.

Sometimes it can take a gawdaful long time, though.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:54:44 -0700, Jim Stewart wrote:

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Snip...

The next day, the machinist called him to say that all the holes were
"all over the place; up to 30-thousanths off-centers",

Snip...

The answer is pretty clear. That "machinist" couldn't measure anything
with better than a 30 thou accuracy.

I'd believe that it could have been an honest mistake, except if that
were so then when he had it checked by his friend he'd have come back and
said "oopsie -- I'll just be eating some costs here".

I have, to my regret, misinterpreted things said to customers by other
vendors and mistakenly bad-mouthed people. But when I catch myself at it
you can bet that I'm as prompt as can be about rectifying my mistake.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Some people will prosper until judgement day,
and then Christ will deal with them.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
news:1rCdnf4IodOSN6vNnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@web-

Over the years I've seen every unethical person go down. Some faster
than others but it eventually catches up with them. It never pays to
lie to or cheat anyone.

Sometimes it can take a gawdaful long time, though.

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:46:27 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:


Why? Why do people do this crap? Is it just the bux, or is it trying
to build themselves up in their own eyes?

Perhaps he was looking for an excuse to bid up the price--but a more
likely explanation is that he simply made a mistake and couldn't bring
himself to admit it. Feynman said that the highest calling of a scientist
is to prove him/herself wrong--- but very few people live up to it. I
always tell my kids that it's a sign of STRENGTH, not weakness, to admit
to a screw-up, and it sometimes works... hopefully...