charles bash wrote:
Was having breakfast at my favorite Fast Food place when I noticed 3 men
customers exit the restaurant and walk over to a "stake body truck"
loaded with 3 or 4 tons of Mulch in plastic bags.

From another vehicle they off-loaded a commercial lawn mower, hedge
trimmer,, leaf blower and went to work - on Lawn Care right outside the
restaurant! Good looking trucks,, nicely painted "Montclair Lawn Care
Services,,Dumphries, VA"

They sure as Hell looked like Real Americans so I went over to the one
farthest removed from the racket made by the other 2 machines. Asked how
come you guys are doing this work? How could you be low bidder?

Oh we Weren't low bidder! We were among the high bidders. It's jest
that we do Good Work. We have the contract to do A HUNDRED SIXTY
McDONALD'S! Just like that. Real Americans,, with assured jobs,
doing Lawn Care!

Now the truth is, its having low cost hard workin' Spics do a job versus
Americans who can be Depended on to Do a Good Job when nobody is
watching them! That's the difference! I have seen it over and over in
the placement of concrete sidewalks and had posted on it here, two years
ago.

Arlington County commercial property owners have been stung so badly by
"hard workin" concrete workers who speak no English that deteriorated
concrete sidewalks are being replaced ever'where with Brick sidewalks!
Actually when high quality bricks are used,, particularly of a pleasing
uniform,, dark burnt cherry color,, the final effect has a very nice
appearance.
C. Bash
Que Sera! Sera!

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

ted

Ahh wrong approach

Invite the world paying sub minimum wage till they earn citizenship,
allow companies to open factories employing these immigrants then
export stuff to china

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

more revenue, illegals no longer a problem, more manufacturing, us
grows again..................

In article . com, wrote:

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

The problem is that will be how everything we buy goes into a database
since the national sales tax percentage will depend on income. Swipe
your tax card at every purchase.

Brent P wrote:
In article . com, wrote:

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

The problem is that will be how everything we buy goes into a database
since the national sales tax percentage will depend on income. Swipe
your tax card at every purchase.

no flat rate on everything! everyone would get a small check monthly
as a rebate to help low income people.

google fair tax

In article .com, wrote:

Brent P wrote:
In article . com, wrote:

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

The problem is that will be how everything we buy goes into a database
since the national sales tax percentage will depend on income. Swipe
your tax card at every purchase.

no flat rate on everything! everyone would get a small check monthly
as a rebate to help low income people.

How do you think government is going to do it? The way that expands their
power. We're talking about the same people who want to replace the
gasoline tax with a milage tax that tracks everywhere we go....

More like get a prez that has the balls to act on someone breaking the
law. They don't call them legal immigrants.


wrote:
charles bash wrote:
Was having breakfast at my favorite Fast Food place when I noticed 3 men
customers exit the restaurant and walk over to a "stake body truck"
loaded with 3 or 4 tons of Mulch in plastic bags.

From another vehicle they off-loaded a commercial lawn mower, hedge
trimmer,, leaf blower and went to work - on Lawn Care right outside the
restaurant! Good looking trucks,, nicely painted "Montclair Lawn Care
Services,,Dumphries, VA"

They sure as Hell looked like Real Americans so I went over to the one
farthest removed from the racket made by the other 2 machines. Asked how
come you guys are doing this work? How could you be low bidder?

Oh we Weren't low bidder! We were among the high bidders. It's jest
that we do Good Work. We have the contract to do A HUNDRED SIXTY
McDONALD'S! Just like that. Real Americans,, with assured jobs,
doing Lawn Care!

Now the truth is, its having low cost hard workin' Spics do a job versus
Americans who can be Depended on to Do a Good Job when nobody is
watching them! That's the difference! I have seen it over and over in
the placement of concrete sidewalks and had posted on it here, two years
ago.

Arlington County commercial property owners have been stung so badly by
"hard workin" concrete workers who speak no English that deteriorated
concrete sidewalks are being replaced ever'where with Brick sidewalks!
Actually when high quality bricks are used,, particularly of a pleasing
uniform,, dark burnt cherry color,, the final effect has a very nice
appearance.
C. Bash
Que Sera! Sera!

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

ted

On 2 Nov 2006 12:39:16 -0800, wrote:

[...]

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

So you would discriminate against a non-white worker who was born in
the U.S., and so were his parents and grandparents, and maybe his
great-grandparents?

wrote:
charles bash wrote:

Was having breakfast at my favorite Fast Food place when I noticed 3 men
customers exit the restaurant and walk over to a "stake body truck"
loaded with 3 or 4 tons of Mulch in plastic bags.

From another vehicle they off-loaded a commercial lawn mower, hedge
trimmer,, leaf blower and went to work - on Lawn Care right outside the
restaurant! Good looking trucks,, nicely painted "Montclair Lawn Care
Services,,Dumphries, VA"

They sure as Hell looked like Real Americans so I went over to the one
farthest removed from the racket made by the other 2 machines. Asked how
come you guys are doing this work? How could you be low bidder?

Oh we Weren't low bidder! We were among the high bidders. It's jest
that we do Good Work. We have the contract to do A HUNDRED SIXTY
McDONALD'S! Just like that. Real Americans,, with assured jobs,
doing Lawn Care!

Now the truth is, its having low cost hard workin' Spics do a job versus
Americans who can be Depended on to Do a Good Job when nobody is
watching them! That's the difference! I have seen it over and over in
the placement of concrete sidewalks and had posted on it here, two years
ago.

Arlington County commercial property owners have been stung so badly by
"hard workin" concrete workers who speak no English that deteriorated
concrete sidewalks are being replaced ever'where with Brick sidewalks!
Actually when high quality bricks are used,, particularly of a pleasing
uniform,, dark burnt cherry color,, the final effect has a very nice
appearance.
C. Bash
Que Sera! Sera!


Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

ted



First take your bigoted ass and crawl back under your rock

I am firmly in the border control camp, but assholes like you make it
hard to stay there.

There are plenty of untrained americans doping crap work out there, trust me

wrote:
charles bash wrote:
Was having breakfast at my favorite Fast Food place when I noticed 3 men
customers exit the restaurant and walk over to a "stake body truck"
loaded with 3 or 4 tons of Mulch in plastic bags.

From another vehicle they off-loaded a commercial lawn mower, hedge
trimmer,, leaf blower and went to work - on Lawn Care right outside the
restaurant! Good looking trucks,, nicely painted "Montclair Lawn Care
Services,,Dumphries, VA"

They sure as Hell looked like Real Americans so I went over to the one
farthest removed from the racket made by the other 2 machines. Asked how
come you guys are doing this work? How could you be low bidder?

Oh we Weren't low bidder! We were among the high bidders. It's jest
that we do Good Work. We have the contract to do A HUNDRED SIXTY
McDONALD'S! Just like that. Real Americans,, with assured jobs,
doing Lawn Care!

Now the truth is, its having low cost hard workin' Spics do a job versus
Americans who can be Depended on to Do a Good Job when nobody is
watching them! That's the difference! I have seen it over and over in
the placement of concrete sidewalks and had posted on it here, two years
ago.

Arlington County commercial property owners have been stung so badly by
"hard workin" concrete workers who speak no English that deteriorated
concrete sidewalks are being replaced ever'where with Brick sidewalks!
Actually when high quality bricks are used,, particularly of a pleasing
uniform,, dark burnt cherry color,, the final effect has a very nice
appearance.
C. Bash
Que Sera! Sera!

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

ted



LOL!!!

That was tried in the 70s. Illegals rounded up and shipped
home...............and the lettuce farmers almost went broke because
there was no one who would WORK!!!

aspasia wrote:
On 2 Nov 2006 12:39:16 -0800, wrote:

[...]

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

So you would discriminate against a non-white worker who was born in
the U.S., and so were his parents and grandparents, and maybe his
great-grandparents?

You talking about indians?

wrote in message

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

The only way to do that is to throw the people that hire them into
jail. Make it clear to employers that they will suffer if they hire
illegals,
and the illegals will leave due to lack of work.

Bob

Turn off the welfare spigot and when the hordes get hungry enough
they'll work. I wouldnt work a menial job either if UncleSam gave me a
check, food stamps, public housing , and medical care!!!! Once we undo
generations of dependence and people realize it's work or die they'll
be glad to work. Otherwise theyll starve and we;ll have less breeders.
Shoot the illegals when they cross put bounty on their ears or scalps .
Put them in cargo containers and drop them in the ocean. I want to
hear English in America-no more press 1 for English or 2 for spanish


Kickin' Goober's Faggot Ass wrote:
wrote:
charles bash wrote:
Was having breakfast at my favorite Fast Food place when I noticed 3 men
customers exit the restaurant and walk over to a "stake body truck"
loaded with 3 or 4 tons of Mulch in plastic bags.

From another vehicle they off-loaded a commercial lawn mower, hedge
trimmer,, leaf blower and went to work - on Lawn Care right outside the
restaurant! Good looking trucks,, nicely painted "Montclair Lawn Care
Services,,Dumphries, VA"

They sure as Hell looked like Real Americans so I went over to the one
farthest removed from the racket made by the other 2 machines. Asked how
come you guys are doing this work? How could you be low bidder?

Oh we Weren't low bidder! We were among the high bidders. It's jest
that we do Good Work. We have the contract to do A HUNDRED SIXTY
McDONALD'S! Just like that. Real Americans,, with assured jobs,
doing Lawn Care!

Now the truth is, its having low cost hard workin' Spics do a job versus
Americans who can be Depended on to Do a Good Job when nobody is
watching them! That's the difference! I have seen it over and over in
the placement of concrete sidewalks and had posted on it here, two years
ago.

Arlington County commercial property owners have been stung so badly by
"hard workin" concrete workers who speak no English that deteriorated
concrete sidewalks are being replaced ever'where with Brick sidewalks!
Actually when high quality bricks are used,, particularly of a pleasing
uniform,, dark burnt cherry color,, the final effect has a very nice
appearance.
C. Bash
Que Sera! Sera!

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

ted



LOL!!!

That was tried in the 70s. Illegals rounded up and shipped
home...............and the lettuce farmers almost went broke because
there was no one who would WORK!!!

Yeah, work for illegal wages.


Kickin' Goober's Faggot Ass wrote:
wrote:
charles bash wrote:
Was having breakfast at my favorite Fast Food place when I noticed 3 men
customers exit the restaurant and walk over to a "stake body truck"
loaded with 3 or 4 tons of Mulch in plastic bags.

From another vehicle they off-loaded a commercial lawn mower, hedge
trimmer,, leaf blower and went to work - on Lawn Care right outside the
restaurant! Good looking trucks,, nicely painted "Montclair Lawn Care
Services,,Dumphries, VA"

They sure as Hell looked like Real Americans so I went over to the one
farthest removed from the racket made by the other 2 machines. Asked how
come you guys are doing this work? How could you be low bidder?

Oh we Weren't low bidder! We were among the high bidders. It's jest
that we do Good Work. We have the contract to do A HUNDRED SIXTY
McDONALD'S! Just like that. Real Americans,, with assured jobs,
doing Lawn Care!

Now the truth is, its having low cost hard workin' Spics do a job versus
Americans who can be Depended on to Do a Good Job when nobody is
watching them! That's the difference! I have seen it over and over in
the placement of concrete sidewalks and had posted on it here, two years
ago.

Arlington County commercial property owners have been stung so badly by
"hard workin" concrete workers who speak no English that deteriorated
concrete sidewalks are being replaced ever'where with Brick sidewalks!
Actually when high quality bricks are used,, particularly of a pleasing
uniform,, dark burnt cherry color,, the final effect has a very nice
appearance.
C. Bash
Que Sera! Sera!

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

ted



LOL!!!

That was tried in the 70s. Illegals rounded up and shipped
home...............and the lettuce farmers almost went broke because
there was no one who would WORK!!!

On 2 Nov 2006 11:00:26 -0800, "
wrote:

Ahh wrong approach

Invite the world paying sub minimum wage till they earn citizenship,
allow companies to open factories employing these immigrants then
export stuff to china

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

more revenue, illegals no longer a problem, more manufacturing, us
grows again..................

You need to add one thing to that. ANY exported money will also be
taxed.

--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

Kickin' Goober's Faggot Ass wrote:
wrote:
charles bash wrote:
Was having breakfast at my favorite Fast Food place when I noticed 3 men
customers exit the restaurant and walk over to a "stake body truck"
loaded with 3 or 4 tons of Mulch in plastic bags.

From another vehicle they off-loaded a commercial lawn mower, hedge
trimmer,, leaf blower and went to work - on Lawn Care right outside the
restaurant! Good looking trucks,, nicely painted "Montclair Lawn Care
Services,,Dumphries, VA"

They sure as Hell looked like Real Americans so I went over to the one
farthest removed from the racket made by the other 2 machines. Asked how
come you guys are doing this work? How could you be low bidder?

Oh we Weren't low bidder! We were among the high bidders. It's jest
that we do Good Work. We have the contract to do A HUNDRED SIXTY
McDONALD'S! Just like that. Real Americans,, with assured jobs,
doing Lawn Care!

Now the truth is, its having low cost hard workin' Spics do a job versus
Americans who can be Depended on to Do a Good Job when nobody is
watching them! That's the difference! I have seen it over and over in
the placement of concrete sidewalks and had posted on it here, two years
ago.

Arlington County commercial property owners have been stung so badly by
"hard workin" concrete workers who speak no English that deteriorated
concrete sidewalks are being replaced ever'where with Brick sidewalks!
Actually when high quality bricks are used,, particularly of a pleasing
uniform,, dark burnt cherry color,, the final effect has a very nice
appearance.
C. Bash
Que Sera! Sera!

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

ted



LOL!!!

That was tried in the 70s. Illegals rounded up and shipped
home...............and the lettuce farmers almost went broke because
there was no one who would WORK!!!

And in Wa state this year. The fruit pickers found that there was much
better pay in the booming construction industry. Apple crops went to
waste unpicked. Growers couldn't find pickers of any kind at the price
they were willing to pay.

Harry K

Harry K wrote:
Kickin' Goober's Faggot Ass wrote:
wrote:
charles bash wrote:
Was having breakfast at my favorite Fast Food place when I noticed 3 men
customers exit the restaurant and walk over to a "stake body truck"
loaded with 3 or 4 tons of Mulch in plastic bags.

From another vehicle they off-loaded a commercial lawn mower, hedge
trimmer,, leaf blower and went to work - on Lawn Care right outside the
restaurant! Good looking trucks,, nicely painted "Montclair Lawn Care
Services,,Dumphries, VA"

They sure as Hell looked like Real Americans so I went over to the one
farthest removed from the racket made by the other 2 machines. Asked how
come you guys are doing this work? How could you be low bidder?

Oh we Weren't low bidder! We were among the high bidders. It's jest
that we do Good Work. We have the contract to do A HUNDRED SIXTY
McDONALD'S! Just like that. Real Americans,, with assured jobs,
doing Lawn Care!

Now the truth is, its having low cost hard workin' Spics do a job versus
Americans who can be Depended on to Do a Good Job when nobody is
watching them! That's the difference! I have seen it over and over in
the placement of concrete sidewalks and had posted on it here, two years
ago.

Arlington County commercial property owners have been stung so badly by
"hard workin" concrete workers who speak no English that deteriorated
concrete sidewalks are being replaced ever'where with Brick sidewalks!
Actually when high quality bricks are used,, particularly of a pleasing
uniform,, dark burnt cherry color,, the final effect has a very nice
appearance.
C. Bash
Que Sera! Sera!
Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

ted


LOL!!!

That was tried in the 70s. Illegals rounded up and shipped
home...............and the lettuce farmers almost went broke because
there was no one who would WORK!!!

And in Wa state this year. The fruit pickers found that there was much
better pay in the booming construction industry. Apple crops went to
waste unpicked. Growers couldn't find pickers of any kind at the price
they were willing to pay.

Harry K


Low wages paid to ag workers are one way to subsidize low food prices.
Think what food would cost if the people who produce, prepare, and serve
it actually got paid living wages.

--
There's a difference between reputation and image;
one involves character, the other public relations.
Garry Trudeau

In article , Elmo wrote:

Low wages paid to ag workers are one way to subsidize low food prices.
Think what food would cost if the people who produce, prepare, and serve
it actually got paid living wages.

Low wages prevent the use of automation. Only those crops where
automation has not yet been developed and/or growers simply refuse to
use it because of the cheap labor supply depend on illegal alien
workers. There wouldn't be any increase in price unless the producers
threw a fit and stopped growing the crops. The market price is what is.

In addition, maybe you haven't noticed, but illegal aliens aren't just
picking crops any more. They have invaded and driven down wages in a wide
variety of jobs. They drive down the wages by flooding the supply of
labor and then people declare 'americans won't do these jobs'. They don't
do them because they don't pay what they used to pay.

We have spent a lifetime of throwing americans out of work, every time
we buy imported goods.......... the wages of china etc are no where
ours.

this year china begins exporting a economy car. $7000 10 year 100,000
mile warranty.

the american standard of living will HAVE to drop at some point we
just arent affordable workers anymore.........

Brent P wrote:
In article , Elmo wrote:

Low wages paid to ag workers are one way to subsidize low food prices.
Think what food would cost if the people who produce, prepare, and serve
it actually got paid living wages.

Low wages prevent the use of automation. Only those crops where
automation has not yet been developed and/or growers simply refuse to
use it because of the cheap labor supply depend on illegal alien
workers. There wouldn't be any increase in price unless the producers
threw a fit and stopped growing the crops. The market price is what is.

Not according to basic economics. If automation was less expensive for
the crops labor is now being used for, the farmers would be using it
already, instead of illegal aliens. When you raise all producers
costs, the supply curve shifts, resulting in a higher market price.
And no matter how much automation you have, there are still many tasks,
like inspection/grading, that have to be done by humans.

Now, does that mean it would result in prices so high people could no
longer afford food? No, but it most certainly would have the effect
of increasing price.




In addition, maybe you haven't noticed, but illegal aliens aren't just
picking crops any more. They have invaded and driven down wages in a wide
variety of jobs. They drive down the wages by flooding the supply of
labor and then people declare 'americans won't do these jobs'. They don't
do them because they don't pay what they used to pay.

In article . com, wrote:

Brent P wrote:
In article , Elmo wrote:

Low wages paid to ag workers are one way to subsidize low food prices.
Think what food would cost if the people who produce, prepare, and serve
it actually got paid living wages.

Low wages prevent the use of automation. Only those crops where
automation has not yet been developed and/or growers simply refuse to
use it because of the cheap labor supply depend on illegal alien
workers. There wouldn't be any increase in price unless the producers
threw a fit and stopped growing the crops. The market price is what is.

Not according to basic economics. If automation was less expensive for
the crops labor is now being used for, the farmers would be using it
already, instead of illegal aliens.

Cheap labor keeps automation out. Automation is a capitial expense,
labor is an operating expense. They can avoid the capitial expense by
paying the operating one. The cheap labor might actually cost more all
said and done, but there is no capitial expense. It's like having a
loan.... You don't have all the money today or can't spend all the money
today so you spend a little each month but more over all.

When you raise all producers
costs, the supply curve shifts, resulting in a higher market price.
And no matter how much automation you have, there are still many tasks,
like inspection/grading, that have to be done by humans.

Actually automation does that in some farming applications already.

Now, does that mean it would result in prices so high people could no
longer afford food? No, but it most certainly would have the effect
of increasing price.

The same situation we have right now where many people can't afford the
taxes. I'd rather have slightly more expensive food than this huge tax
burden to pay for the health care, crime, infastructure, etc that we have
to pay for illegal aliens. Not to mention things like increased insurance
rates.

If we all had to pay more for food to get rid of the illegal imigration
problems, SIGN ME UP. Ok, so instead of .89 for a head of lettuce its
$1.79. Wow, Im broke now.


Elmo wrote:
Harry K wrote:
Kickin' Goober's Faggot Ass wrote:
wrote:
charles bash wrote:
Was having breakfast at my favorite Fast Food place when I noticed 3 men
customers exit the restaurant and walk over to a "stake body truck"
loaded with 3 or 4 tons of Mulch in plastic bags.

From another vehicle they off-loaded a commercial lawn mower, hedge
trimmer,, leaf blower and went to work - on Lawn Care right outside the
restaurant! Good looking trucks,, nicely painted "Montclair Lawn Care
Services,,Dumphries, VA"

They sure as Hell looked like Real Americans so I went over to the one
farthest removed from the racket made by the other 2 machines. Asked how
come you guys are doing this work? How could you be low bidder?

Oh we Weren't low bidder! We were among the high bidders. It's jest
that we do Good Work. We have the contract to do A HUNDRED SIXTY
McDONALD'S! Just like that. Real Americans,, with assured jobs,
doing Lawn Care!

Now the truth is, its having low cost hard workin' Spics do a job versus
Americans who can be Depended on to Do a Good Job when nobody is
watching them! That's the difference! I have seen it over and over in
the placement of concrete sidewalks and had posted on it here, two years
ago.

Arlington County commercial property owners have been stung so badly by
"hard workin" concrete workers who speak no English that deteriorated
concrete sidewalks are being replaced ever'where with Brick sidewalks!
Actually when high quality bricks are used,, particularly of a pleasing
uniform,, dark burnt cherry color,, the final effect has a very nice
appearance.
C. Bash
Que Sera! Sera!
Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

ted


LOL!!!

That was tried in the 70s. Illegals rounded up and shipped
home...............and the lettuce farmers almost went broke because
there was no one who would WORK!!!

And in Wa state this year. The fruit pickers found that there was much
better pay in the booming construction industry. Apple crops went to
waste unpicked. Growers couldn't find pickers of any kind at the price
they were willing to pay.

Harry K


Low wages paid to ag workers are one way to subsidize low food prices.
Think what food would cost if the people who produce, prepare, and serve
it actually got paid living wages.

--
There's a difference between reputation and image;
one involves character, the other public relations.
Garry Trudeau

"Elmo" wrote in message
Low wages paid to ag workers are one way to subsidize low food prices.
Think what food would cost if the people who produce, prepare, and serve
it actually got paid living wages.

Low wages paid to ag workers are one way to increase profits. Every
workers not paid a living wage here is available cheaper somewhere
else, driving down wages generally, and increasing corporate profits.
If they paid decent wages instead of hiring illegals, eventually people
would find out about the work and show up. But it won't happen
overnight.There's an obvious reason why illegals are coming in more
and more without control. Because the people that make the decisions
want it that way.

Throw every employer caught hiring illegals in jail, and the problem
will go away. But it isn't going to happen.

Bob

Brent P wrote:
In article . com, wrote:

Brent P wrote:
In article , Elmo wrote:

Low wages paid to ag workers are one way to subsidize low food prices.
Think what food would cost if the people who produce, prepare, and serve
it actually got paid living wages.

Low wages prevent the use of automation. Only those crops where
automation has not yet been developed and/or growers simply refuse to
use it because of the cheap labor supply depend on illegal alien
workers. There wouldn't be any increase in price unless the producers
threw a fit and stopped growing the crops. The market price is what is.

Not according to basic economics. If automation was less expensive for
the crops labor is now being used for, the farmers would be using it
already, instead of illegal aliens.

Cheap labor keeps automation out. Automation is a capitial expense,
labor is an operating expense. They can avoid the capitial expense by
paying the operating one. The cheap labor might actually cost more all
said and done, but there is no capitial expense. It's like having a
loan.... You don't have all the money today or can't spend all the money
today so you spend a little each month but more over all.

The above assumes producers are too stupid to figure out what makes
them the most money, which flies in the face of capitalism and
economics. In fact, companies are very good at it. They can do the
math, figure out whether the capital investment is worth it, what the
cost of financing is, how fast it pays back, etc. They have all done
it and that is how we arrived at the mix of human vs automation we have
today. You can argue all you want, but the simple fact is
farmers/producers in the business know what their actual costs are and
are behaving rationally. If they could save money by using more
automation, they would.




When you raise all producers
costs, the supply curve shifts, resulting in a higher market price.
And no matter how much automation you have, there are still many tasks,
like inspection/grading, that have to be done by humans.

Actually automation does that in some farming applications already.

Yes, because it's possible and economical in some select cases. And
guess what? Just like you would expect, where it saves money, it is
used.





Now, does that mean it would result in prices so high people could no
longer afford food? No, but it most certainly would have the effect
of increasing price.

The same situation we have right now where many people can't afford the
taxes. I'd rather have slightly more expensive food than this huge tax
burden to pay for the health care, crime, infastructure, etc that we have
to pay for illegal aliens. Not to mention things like increased insurance
rates.


I tend to agree. I'm not so sure the effects on prices would be slight
though. There are many services, throughout the economy, where you'd
have to more than double wages and even then, it would be hard to find
employees willing to do that work. But I don;t agree with those
predicting it would be the end of the world either. The economy has
survived other major shocks, like the recent run up in oil prices,
without falling apart.

In article .com, wrote:
Brent P wrote:

Cheap labor keeps automation out. Automation is a capitial expense,
labor is an operating expense. They can avoid the capitial expense by
paying the operating one. The cheap labor might actually cost more all
said and done, but there is no capitial expense. It's like having a
loan.... You don't have all the money today or can't spend all the money
today so you spend a little each month but more over all.

The above assumes producers are too stupid to figure out what makes
them the most money, which flies in the face of capitalism and
economics.

Has nothing to do with being stupid. It's about long term vs. short term
thinking. The busniess environment in the USA is overwhelmingly short
term thinking.

In fact, companies are very good at it. They can do the
math, figure out whether the capital investment is worth it, what the
cost of financing is, how fast it pays back, etc.

Again, long term vs. short term thinking. Businesses often neglect the
long term because they need to have profit now.

Another issue is cash flow... Cash flow says they cannot buy automation
this year, so they do cheap labor. Rinse and repeat.

They have all done
it and that is how we arrived at the mix of human vs automation we have
today. You can argue all you want, but the simple fact is
farmers/producers in the business know what their actual costs are and
are behaving rationally. If they could save money by using more
automation, they would.

Most businesses are not operating at long term ideals.

You are looking at the whole thing from a sensible long term approach
that is rarely done in practice.

Also the bigger the business, the stupider it is... (ie Dilbert's world)

When you raise all producers
costs, the supply curve shifts, resulting in a higher market price.
And no matter how much automation you have, there are still many tasks,
like inspection/grading, that have to be done by humans.

Actually automation does that in some farming applications already.

Yes, because it's possible and economical in some select cases. And
guess what? Just like you would expect, where it saves money, it is
used.

It's also states that haven't been penetrated as much by illegal alien
labor... hmm....

Now, does that mean it would result in prices so high people could no
longer afford food? No, but it most certainly would have the effect
of increasing price.

The same situation we have right now where many people can't afford the
taxes. I'd rather have slightly more expensive food than this huge tax
burden to pay for the health care, crime, infastructure, etc that we have
to pay for illegal aliens. Not to mention things like increased insurance
rates.

I tend to agree. I'm not so sure the effects on prices would be slight
though. There are many services, throughout the economy, where you'd
have to more than double wages and even then, it would be hard to find
employees willing to do that work. But I don;t agree with those
predicting it would be the end of the world either. The economy has
survived other major shocks, like the recent run up in oil prices,
without falling apart.

I can economize what I consume. I am forced by the barrel of a gun to
pay taxes. So can everyone else.

When we pay the costs as taxes it short circuits the economic system.
Prices have to go down because people are paying large segments of their
income as taxes so they drive down labor costs which puts more people out
of work and more with work needing social services which drives up taxes
and it's a nasty feedback loop.

If we just pay for the costs in the products, we buy what we can afford
to buy, more people are employed at a decent wage, leading to a larger
market and producers find other ways to lower prices in the competition
of the free market.

The first few years out of the feedback loop might hurt, but we get out
of it or we crash completely.

Brent P wrote:
In article .com, wrote:
Brent P wrote:

Cheap labor keeps automation out. Automation is a capitial expense,
labor is an operating expense. They can avoid the capitial expense by
paying the operating one. The cheap labor might actually cost more all
said and done, but there is no capitial expense. It's like having a
loan.... You don't have all the money today or can't spend all the money
today so you spend a little each month but more over all.

The above assumes producers are too stupid to figure out what makes
them the most money, which flies in the face of capitalism and
economics.

Has nothing to do with being stupid. It's about long term vs. short term
thinking. The busniess environment in the USA is overwhelmingly short
term thinking.


Yes, it does. You think ag companies are too stupid to realize that
they could make MORE money by using more machines as you claim can be
done, instead of using cheap labor. And apparently you think a
tractor or a large processing facility is a disposable short term item.
They buy and finance tractors and processing plants, don;'t they?
And even if they wouldn't buy a machine to replace humans to make more
money, they can lease it. Straightforward. Instead of paying x
numbers of workers, pay a monthly lease payment. It ain't rocket
science. The reason it isn't done is they make more profit by using
humans and machines in the mix of applications that they are doing now.
You apparently think you know more about agriculture production than
those in the business.





In fact, companies are very good at it. They can do the
math, figure out whether the capital investment is worth it, what the
cost of financing is, how fast it pays back, etc.

Again, long term vs. short term thinking. Businesses often neglect the
long term because they need to have profit now.


See leasing comments above. Also, capital investment and profit are
two very different things. You don't expense a new machine, you
capitalize it and depreciate it over it's service life.



Another issue is cash flow... Cash flow says they cannot buy automation
this year, so they do cheap labor. Rinse and repeat.

See leasing.



They have all done
it and that is how we arrived at the mix of human vs automation we have
today. You can argue all you want, but the simple fact is
farmers/producers in the business know what their actual costs are and
are behaving rationally. If they could save money by using more
automation, they would.

Most businesses are not operating at long term ideals.


Again, you think you know more than those in the business.




You are looking at the whole thing from a sensible long term approach
that is rarely done in practice.

Also the bigger the business, the stupider it is... (ie Dilbert's world)


See, you do think they are stupid. How arrogant. I guess companies
like Microsoft and Intel must be among the most stupid then. Funny how
they are thriving in this world economy.



When you raise all producers
costs, the supply curve shifts, resulting in a higher market price.
And no matter how much automation you have, there are still many tasks,
like inspection/grading, that have to be done by humans.

Actually automation does that in some farming applications already.

Yes, because it's possible and economical in some select cases. And
guess what? Just like you would expect, where it saves money, it is
used.

It's also states that haven't been penetrated as much by illegal alien
labor... hmm....

Oh yeah, and where would that be Mr Expert? We have plenty of them
here in NJ doing everything from picking crops, to mowing lawns, to
working in kitchens of all the restaurants. I've travelled widely in
the US and I see them everywhere.




Now, does that mean it would result in prices so high people could no
longer afford food? No, but it most certainly would have the effect
of increasing price.

The same situation we have right now where many people can't afford the
taxes. I'd rather have slightly more expensive food than this huge tax
burden to pay for the health care, crime, infastructure, etc that we have
to pay for illegal aliens. Not to mention things like increased insurance
rates.

I tend to agree. I'm not so sure the effects on prices would be slight
though. There are many services, throughout the economy, where you'd
have to more than double wages and even then, it would be hard to find
employees willing to do that work. But I don;t agree with those
predicting it would be the end of the world either. The economy has
survived other major shocks, like the recent run up in oil prices,
without falling apart.

I can economize what I consume. I am forced by the barrel of a gun to
pay taxes. So can everyone else.

When we pay the costs as taxes it short circuits the economic system.
Prices have to go down because people are paying large segments of their
income as taxes so they drive down labor costs which puts more people out
of work and more with work needing social services which drives up taxes
and it's a nasty feedback loop.

You really should take an economics class. Increased taxes don't drive
prices down, they increase prices, because taxes are just another
expense that business passes on to the consumer. And if this nasty
little feedback thing was causing higher prices and more unemployment
as you claim, why is it that employement is near historic lows and
inflation is low as well.



If we just pay for the costs in the products, we buy what we can afford
to buy, more people are employed at a decent wage, leading to a larger
market and producers find other ways to lower prices in the competition
of the free market.

The first few years out of the feedback loop might hurt, but we get out
of it or we crash completely.


And now we are about to crash? Oh, my!

wrote in message
oups.com...

Brent P wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

The problem is that will be how everything we buy goes into a database
since the national sales tax percentage will depend on income. Swipe
your tax card at every purchase.

no flat rate on everything! everyone would get a small check monthly
as a rebate to help low income people.

google fair tax


y'all are forgetting where all the money gathered by the federal income tax
goes .... to pay the interest on the money the gov't borrows from the
Federal Reserve Bank, to finance its opressive existence. And also remember
that the Federal Reserve is actually a PRIVATE CORPORATION... so, your
federal income tax dollars are going to make a very rich, private
corporation even RICHER.

On 2 Nov 2006 13:40:22 -0800, wrote:


aspasia wrote:
On 2 Nov 2006 12:39:16 -0800, wrote:

[...]

Rid America of these scumbag illegal aliens and we will demonstrate
that White workers are the best.

So you would discriminate against a non-white worker who was born in
the U.S., and so were his parents and grandparents, and maybe his
great-grandparents?

You talking about indians?

Actually, I was thinking of Kenyans, Japanese, Malaysians,Haitians,
Koreans, even South or Central American mestizos(sp?) Vietnamese,
and on and on.

You know -- the hypenated crowd.* People whose ancestors came to
the U.S. 40-50-60-100 years ago. Like mine did in the 1920's -- only
nobody bothers to call me "European-American", since we're the ones
labeling everybody else.

*Korean-American, Mexican-American, etc. Anybody not as "white"
as our friend seems to prefer.

Oh, yeah, just remembered African-Americans -- whose ancestors came
to America (in slave ships) hundreds of years ago.

In article ,
says...

wrote in message
oups.com...

Brent P wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

The problem is that will be how everything we buy goes into a database
since the national sales tax percentage will depend on income. Swipe
your tax card at every purchase.

no flat rate on everything! everyone would get a small check monthly
as a rebate to help low income people.

google fair tax


y'all are forgetting where all the money gathered by the federal income tax
goes .... to pay the interest on the money the gov't borrows from the
Federal Reserve Bank, to finance its opressive existence. And also remember
that the Federal Reserve is actually a PRIVATE CORPORATION... so, your
federal income tax dollars are going to make a very rich, private
corporation even RICHER.

Nut, you are cracked!

--
Keith

wrote:
We have spent a lifetime of throwing americans out of work, every time
we buy imported goods.......... the wages of china etc are no where
ours.

this year china begins exporting a economy car. $7000 10 year 100,000
mile warranty.

the american standard of living will HAVE to drop at some point we
just arent affordable workers anymore.........



Of course there is another aspect of this that you completely overlook.
And that is the great benefit of people being able to buy that car for
$7000. All the folks who complain about jobs lost to lower cost
labor completely ignore the fact that everyone is also receiving a huge
positive benefit from this. This is especially true of lower income
families. If they had to pay 2X for everything they buy at Walmart and
everywhere else, it's not clear that they would be any better off.

wrote in message
ps.com...

wrote:
We have spent a lifetime of throwing americans out of work, every time
we buy imported goods.......... the wages of china etc are no where
ours.

this year china begins exporting a economy car. $7000 10 year 100,000
mile warranty.

the american standard of living will HAVE to drop at some point we
just arent affordable workers anymore.........



Of course there is another aspect of this that you completely overlook.
And that is the great benefit of people being able to buy that car for
$7000. All the folks who complain about jobs lost to lower cost
labor completely ignore the fact that everyone is also receiving a huge
positive benefit from this. This is especially true of lower income
families. If they had to pay 2X for everything they buy at Walmart and
everywhere else, it's not clear that they would be any better off.


And that $7000 mostly leaves the country - resulting in no benefit
to the economy here, or negative benefit due to the trade deficit.
As the chinese buy up our country with that money, the American
economy will continue to collapse, until this is a third world nation.
Had that money remained here, it would have resulted in more
purchases from those that earned it. Repeat as needed.
Short term thinking in a long term world.

Bob

Bob F wrote:

wrote in message
ps.com...

wrote:

We have spent a lifetime of throwing americans out of work, every time
we buy imported goods.......... the wages of china etc are no where
ours.

this year china begins exporting a economy car. $7000 10 year 100,000
mile warranty.

the american standard of living will HAVE to drop at some point we
just arent affordable workers anymore.........



Of course there is another aspect of this that you completely overlook.
And that is the great benefit of people being able to buy that car for
$7000. All the folks who complain about jobs lost to lower cost
labor completely ignore the fact that everyone is also receiving a huge
positive benefit from this. This is especially true of lower income
families. If they had to pay 2X for everything they buy at Walmart and
everywhere else, it's not clear that they would be any better off.



And that $7000 mostly leaves the country - resulting in no benefit
to the economy here, or negative benefit due to the trade deficit.
As the chinese buy up our country with that money, the American
economy will continue to collapse, until this is a third world nation.
Had that money remained here, it would have resulted in more
purchases from those that earned it. Repeat as needed.
Short term thinking in a long term world.

You seem to forget that a good part of the $7000 remains here
in local wages, delivery charges, salesman's commission and a
bunch of other stuff.

Only the sales price at the receiving pier goes abroad, and
quite frankly, what little I know about international trade
says that China will spend most of the money here.

wrote:
Ahh wrong approach

Invite the world paying sub minimum wage till they earn citizenship,
allow companies to open factories employing these immigrants then
export stuff to china

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

more revenue, illegals no longer a problem, more manufacturing, us
grows again..................

If the illegals paid taxes only half the problem would go away, if the
pimps who traffic in illegals were made to put them on the books and
paid matching witholding taxes there'd be no problem in the first
place... illegals is just a more modern form of slavery... it's far
less expensive to pay two young well developed wetbacks some cash under
the table (even if more than they pay legal citizens) than to buy,
fuel, and maintain a forklift. Economics doesn't apply to illegals, no
more than economics can apply to slavery and prostitution... you can't
apply economics to extortion. If those who pander in illegals were
prosecuted there'd be no need for a fence. A fence can't keep the
illegals out anyway... just like locks only keep honest people out.
They've been digging under fences for years, every mutt knows how to
dig under a fence. The only way to stem the flow of illegals is to
remove the carrots. Illegal labor is prostitution, the oldest
profession... it'll alwys be. There has never been a fence yet that a
dozen brothers couldn't bribe a couple of crossing guards for twenty
minutes with their seester.

Bob F wrote:
wrote in message
ps.com...

wrote:
We have spent a lifetime of throwing americans out of work, every time
we buy imported goods.......... the wages of china etc are no where
ours.

this year china begins exporting a economy car. $7000 10 year 100,000
mile warranty.

the american standard of living will HAVE to drop at some point we
just arent affordable workers anymore.........



Of course there is another aspect of this that you completely overlook.
And that is the great benefit of people being able to buy that car for
$7000. All the folks who complain about jobs lost to lower cost
labor completely ignore the fact that everyone is also receiving a huge
positive benefit from this. This is especially true of lower income
families. If they had to pay 2X for everything they buy at Walmart and
everywhere else, it's not clear that they would be any better off.


And that $7000 mostly leaves the country - resulting in no benefit
to the economy here, or negative benefit due to the trade deficit.
As the chinese buy up our country with that money, the American
economy will continue to collapse, until this is a third world nation.



Continue to collapse? See, this is what I'm talking about. Talk
about only looking at only the negatives. The unemployment rate is at
4.4%. That is well below the average of the past 40 years (6.0%), the
90's (5.8%), and below levels that are considered full employment.
Over the last 3 years, GDP has grown at a 3.5% rate, which is faster
than either the 80's or 90's. Inflation is under control and interest
rates are low. Real estate prices are at record levels, the Dow has
just made a new all time high, and more Americans own homes than ever
before.

If that's a continuing collapse, I want more of it!



Had that money remained here, it would have resulted in more
purchases from those that earned it. Repeat as needed.
Short term thinking in a long term world.

Bob

krw wrote:
In article ,
says...

wrote in message
oups.com...

Brent P wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

The problem is that will be how everything we buy goes into a database
since the national sales tax percentage will depend on income. Swipe
your tax card at every purchase.

no flat rate on everything! everyone would get a small check monthly
as a rebate to help low income people.

google fair tax


y'all are forgetting where all the money gathered by the federal income tax
goes .... to pay the interest on the money the gov't borrows from the
Federal Reserve Bank, to finance its opressive existence. And also remember
that the Federal Reserve is actually a PRIVATE CORPORATION... so, your
federal income tax dollars are going to make a very rich, private
corporation even RICHER.

Nut, you are cracked!




except for one thing; he's telling the TRUTH!!!





--
Keith

krw wrote:
In article ,
says...

wrote in message
oups.com...

Brent P wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

While were at it ELMINATE the IRS and income tax, go to a national
sales tax so EVERYONE pays!

The problem is that will be how everything we buy goes into a database
since the national sales tax percentage will depend on income. Swipe
your tax card at every purchase.

no flat rate on everything! everyone would get a small check monthly
as a rebate to help low income people.

google fair tax


y'all are forgetting where all the money gathered by the federal income tax
goes .... to pay the interest on the money the gov't borrows from the
Federal Reserve Bank, to finance its opressive existence. And also remember
that the Federal Reserve is actually a PRIVATE CORPORATION... so, your
federal income tax dollars are going to make a very rich, private
corporation even RICHER.

Nut, you are cracked!




except that he's telling the TRUTH!!!...............which you don't
want anyone to know.





--
Keith

"unsettled" wrote in message
...
Bob F wrote:

wrote in message
ps.com...

wrote:

We have spent a lifetime of throwing americans out of work, every time
we buy imported goods.......... the wages of china etc are no where
ours.

this year china begins exporting a economy car. $7000 10 year 100,000
mile warranty.

the american standard of living will HAVE to drop at some point we
just arent affordable workers anymore.........



Of course there is another aspect of this that you completely overlook.
And that is the great benefit of people being able to buy that car for
$7000. All the folks who complain about jobs lost to lower cost
labor completely ignore the fact that everyone is also receiving a huge
positive benefit from this. This is especially true of lower income
families. If they had to pay 2X for everything they buy at Walmart and
everywhere else, it's not clear that they would be any better off.



And that $7000 mostly leaves the country - resulting in no benefit
to the economy here, or negative benefit due to the trade deficit.
As the chinese buy up our country with that money, the American
economy will continue to collapse, until this is a third world nation.
Had that money remained here, it would have resulted in more
purchases from those that earned it. Repeat as needed.
Short term thinking in a long term world.

You seem to forget that a good part of the $7000 remains here
in local wages, delivery charges, salesman's commission and a
bunch of other stuff.

Only the sales price at the receiving pier goes abroad, and
quite frankly, what little I know about international trade
says that China will spend most of the money here.


Yep. Buying up our infrastructure, real estate, etc. Then our
rent will be going out-of-country too.

The fact is, money that goes overseas doesn't benefit us. Even
the dollars the illegals send home are lost from our economy.

Bob

wrote in message

Continue to collapse? See, this is what I'm talking about. Talk
about only looking at only the negatives. The unemployment rate is at
4.4%. That is well below the average of the past 40 years (6.0%), the
90's (5.8%), and below levels that are considered full employment.
Over the last 3 years, GDP has grown at a 3.5% rate, which is faster
than either the 80's or 90's. Inflation is under control and interest
rates are low. Real estate prices are at record levels, the Dow has
just made a new all time high, and more Americans own homes than ever
before.

If that's a continuing collapse, I want more of it!

Unemployment is down. If you ignore all the people who have
given up looking for work. And don't care that the new jobs are
very low wage. Productivity has peaked. I understand they had
to change the way they measure employment to get those
optomistic new figures.

Bob

In article ,
"Bob F" wrote:


Unemployment is down. If you ignore all the people who have
given up looking for work. And don't care that the new jobs are
very low wage. Productivity has peaked. I understand they had
to change the way they measure employment to get those
optomistic new figures.

Bob
One month where it went sideways and you are already calling a
peak? You and no other economist I am aware. It was just a slowdown
because Vista isn;t available until next month (g).

In article om, wrote:

Of course there is another aspect of this that you completely overlook.
And that is the great benefit of people being able to buy that car for
$7000. All the folks who complain about jobs lost to lower cost
labor completely ignore the fact that everyone is also receiving a huge
positive benefit from this. This is especially true of lower income
families. If they had to pay 2X for everything they buy at Walmart and
everywhere else, it's not clear that they would be any better off.

Lower income people in the USA cannot compete with near slave wages. It
cuts them out of the job market. It's doing them no favors what-so-ever.
Meanwhile, if manufacturing were kept in the USA and illegals weren't
undercutting the wages by flooding the job market with bodies, the demand
for labor would allow these people to find work at a decent wage and
afford to buy the products they are building as well or better than the
products from china etc.

In article , unsettled wrote:

And that $7000 mostly leaves the country - resulting in no benefit
to the economy here, or negative benefit due to the trade deficit.
As the chinese buy up our country with that money, the American
economy will continue to collapse, until this is a third world nation.
Had that money remained here, it would have resulted in more
purchases from those that earned it. Repeat as needed.
Short term thinking in a long term world.

You seem to forget that a good part of the $7000 remains here
in local wages, delivery charges, salesman's commission and a
bunch of other stuff.

A percentage vs. 100% is still less.

Only the sales price at the receiving pier goes abroad, and
quite frankly, what little I know about international trade
says that China will spend most of the money here.

Buying up things like important infastructure and building companies to
take things the US taxpayer paid for.... like our ports, the panama
canal, etc and so forth... Good to have those things in the hands of
communist nation that if you listen to them beyond the evening news,
isn't exactly the USA's friend...