Awl --

The online big-box for generators appears to be
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....enerators.html

and I was seriously looking at Generacs, woulda bought one some time ago if
the lead time wasn't MONTHS, after all that weather bull**** in the
northeast.

Then I started hearing some dicey stuff about the Generac engine AND their
crappy service, and they weren't nearly as quiet as one is led to believe
(some youtube vids).

So ahm still poking around, cuz I really need a backup, and I found
http://www.generatorsales.com/natura...generators.asp

where these guys (in Maine), put together their own generator systems, using
nat gas Honda engines.

Now, here's the Q:

Is this something a half-baked diy-er can do, or is it best left to people
who, well, actually do this? As I understand it, any gasoline engine can be
pretty straightforwardly converted to nat gas, and all's you need is the
generator motor and an automatic voltage regulator -- or so I think.

Or is it the case where it's not so hard to do, put procuring the parts at
an economical price is the difficult part?
Such as http://www.nextag.com/honda-gx630/products-html where they're
asking $12-1300 for the Honda motor itself.... which is already a
substantial fraction of what generatorsales is asking....

Generator sales has a 13,750 W jobbie (double the net wattage of the low-end
Generac), for a few more dollars, and a much simpler (read: reliable?)
system it seems -- ballpark $2,000. Plus you can *talk* to these guys in
Maine, without all the big-box bull****.

Next Q:
Can these things be made substantially quieter with an automotive-type
muffler? An enclosure?

Any other companies making affordable nat gas gensets?
--
EA

On Jul 12, 9:55*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

The online big-box for generators appears to behttp://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/natural-gas-generators....

[etc., etc.]

Prolly not what your looking for but still a pretty cool approach:
http://www.priups.com . My brother used to work for this guy - hes
pretty nutty, but still, it's a cool setup.

Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

The online big-box for generators appears to be
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....enerators.html

and I was seriously looking at Generacs, woulda bought one some time ago if
the lead time wasn't MONTHS, after all that weather bull**** in the
northeast.

Then I started hearing some dicey stuff about the Generac engine AND their
crappy service, and they weren't nearly as quiet as one is led to believe
(some youtube vids).

So ahm still poking around, cuz I really need a backup, and I found
http://www.generatorsales.com/natura...generators.asp

where these guys (in Maine), put together their own generator systems, using
nat gas Honda engines.

Now, here's the Q:

Is this something a half-baked diy-er can do, or is it best left to people
who, well, actually do this? As I understand it, any gasoline engine can be
pretty straightforwardly converted to nat gas, and all's you need is the
generator motor and an automatic voltage regulator -- or so I think.

Or is it the case where it's not so hard to do, put procuring the parts at
an economical price is the difficult part?
Such as http://www.nextag.com/honda-gx630/products-html where they're
asking $12-1300 for the Honda motor itself.... which is already a
substantial fraction of what generatorsales is asking....

Generator sales has a 13,750 W jobbie (double the net wattage of the low-end
Generac), for a few more dollars, and a much simpler (read: reliable?)
system it seems -- ballpark $2,000. Plus you can *talk* to these guys in
Maine, without all the big-box bull****.

Next Q:
Can these things be made substantially quieter with an automotive-type
muffler? An enclosure?

Any other companies making affordable nat gas gensets?
--
EA

If you want quality and quiet in a packaged standby generator you have
to bypass the air cooled consumer lines (any brand) and move up to the
liquid cooled commercial models. Those models from most any brand are
pretty decent.

"Pete C." wrote in message
.com...

Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

The online big-box for generators appears to be
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....enerators.html

and I was seriously looking at Generacs, woulda bought one some time ago
if
the lead time wasn't MONTHS, after all that weather bull**** in the
northeast.

Then I started hearing some dicey stuff about the Generac engine AND
their
crappy service, and they weren't nearly as quiet as one is led to believe
(some youtube vids).

So ahm still poking around, cuz I really need a backup, and I found
http://www.generatorsales.com/natura...generators.asp

where these guys (in Maine), put together their own generator systems,
using
nat gas Honda engines.

Now, here's the Q:

Is this something a half-baked diy-er can do, or is it best left to
people
who, well, actually do this? As I understand it, any gasoline engine can
be
pretty straightforwardly converted to nat gas, and all's you need is the
generator motor and an automatic voltage regulator -- or so I think.

Or is it the case where it's not so hard to do, put procuring the parts
at
an economical price is the difficult part?
Such as http://www.nextag.com/honda-gx630/products-html where they're
asking $12-1300 for the Honda motor itself.... which is already a
substantial fraction of what generatorsales is asking....

Generator sales has a 13,750 W jobbie (double the net wattage of the
low-end
Generac), for a few more dollars, and a much simpler (read: reliable?)
system it seems -- ballpark $2,000. Plus you can *talk* to these guys in
Maine, without all the big-box bull****.

Next Q:
Can these things be made substantially quieter with an automotive-type
muffler? An enclosure?

Any other companies making affordable nat gas gensets?
--
EA

If you want quality and quiet in a packaged standby generator you have
to bypass the air cooled consumer lines (any brand) and move up to the
liquid cooled commercial models. Those models from most any brand are
pretty decent.

Yes indeedy, I've seen/heard WhisperWatt diesel generators (used by outside
food trucks), very impressive.
But, $6K++ for 6 kW, and you need diesel fuel. Also the better units are
1800 rpm, which quiets things down.

So do you think a car muffler would help?
--
EA

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Jul 12, 9:55 am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

The online big-box for generators appears to
behttp://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/natural-gas-generators....

[etc., etc.]

Prolly not what your looking for but still a pretty cool approach:
http://www.priups.com . My brother used to work for this guy - hes
pretty nutty, but still, it's a cool setup.
================================================== ====

A great idea, and in principle, any car engine would work.
A guy I know in fact uses his car with a small inverter, just to keep his
boiler going, which uses circulating hot water, so no big blowers or
anything. And mebbe a radio and a light bulb or two. Not bad, actually,
and a lifesaver in the winter..

But I'm using this to A/C and shop stuff, so I need some oomph.
--
EA

Existential Angst wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
.com...

Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

The online big-box for generators appears to be
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....enerators.html

and I was seriously looking at Generacs, woulda bought one some time ago
if
the lead time wasn't MONTHS, after all that weather bull**** in the
northeast.

Then I started hearing some dicey stuff about the Generac engine AND
their
crappy service, and they weren't nearly as quiet as one is led to believe
(some youtube vids).

So ahm still poking around, cuz I really need a backup, and I found
http://www.generatorsales.com/natura...generators.asp

where these guys (in Maine), put together their own generator systems,
using
nat gas Honda engines.

Now, here's the Q:

Is this something a half-baked diy-er can do, or is it best left to
people
who, well, actually do this? As I understand it, any gasoline engine can
be
pretty straightforwardly converted to nat gas, and all's you need is the
generator motor and an automatic voltage regulator -- or so I think.

Or is it the case where it's not so hard to do, put procuring the parts
at
an economical price is the difficult part?
Such as http://www.nextag.com/honda-gx630/products-html where they're
asking $12-1300 for the Honda motor itself.... which is already a
substantial fraction of what generatorsales is asking....

Generator sales has a 13,750 W jobbie (double the net wattage of the
low-end
Generac), for a few more dollars, and a much simpler (read: reliable?)
system it seems -- ballpark $2,000. Plus you can *talk* to these guys in
Maine, without all the big-box bull****.

Next Q:
Can these things be made substantially quieter with an automotive-type
muffler? An enclosure?

Any other companies making affordable nat gas gensets?
--
EA

If you want quality and quiet in a packaged standby generator you have
to bypass the air cooled consumer lines (any brand) and move up to the
liquid cooled commercial models. Those models from most any brand are
pretty decent.

Yes indeedy, I've seen/heard WhisperWatt diesel generators (used by outside
food trucks), very impressive.
But, $6K++ for 6 kW, and you need diesel fuel. Also the better units are
1800 rpm, which quiets things down.


The smaller packaged liquid cooled standby generators are usually Nat
gas/LP. This is not the same as the Multiquip Whisper Watt diesel mobile
generators.

I think the commercial standby units are pretty much all 1800 RPM. A car
muffler or even a critical grade muffler will do *nothing* to quiet an
air cooled engine as most of the noise emanates from the engine block,
not the exhaust.

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:4ffefee4$0
:

A car
muffler or even a critical grade muffler will do *nothing* to quiet an
air cooled engine as most of the noise emanates from the engine block,
not the exhaust.

Weeelllll... it sure will do _something_ positive. I have a 1962 Dayton
3.5KW with an old-style updraft 8HP Briggs on it. (It'll run a 4.2KW load
all day).

I replaced the silly pancake muffler with a small, low back pressure
automotive style, and cut the noise level by way more than half.

Yes, the engine makes a lot of noise all by itself, but half as noisy is
still a good deal.

LLoyd

On Jul 12, 7:55*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

The online big-box for generators appears to behttp://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/natural-gas-generators....

and I was seriously looking at Generacs, woulda bought one some time ago if
the lead time wasn't MONTHS, after all that weather bull**** in the
northeast.

Then I started hearing some dicey stuff about the Generac engine AND their
crappy service, and they weren't nearly as quiet as one is led to believe
(some youtube vids).

So ahm still poking around, cuz I really need a backup, and I foundhttp://www.generatorsales.com/natural-gas-generators.asp

where these guys (in Maine), put together their own generator systems, using
nat gas Honda engines.

Now, here's the Q:

Is this something a half-baked diy-er can do, or is it best left to people
who, well, actually do this? *As I understand it, any gasoline engine can be
pretty straightforwardly converted to nat gas, and all's you need is the
generator motor and an automatic voltage regulator -- or so I think.

Or is it the case where it's not so hard to do, put procuring the parts at
an economical price is the difficult part?
Such ashttp://www.nextag.com/honda-gx630/products-html*where they're
asking $12-1300 for the Honda motor itself.... *which is already a
substantial fraction of what generatorsales is asking....

Generator sales has a 13,750 W jobbie (double the net wattage of the low-end
Generac), for a few more dollars, and a much simpler (read: reliable?)
system it seems -- ballpark $2,000. *Plus you can *talk* to these guys in
Maine, without all the big-box bull****.

Next Q:
* *Can these things be made substantially quieter with an automotive-type
muffler? *An enclosure?

Any other companies making affordable nat gas gensets?
--
EA

A reliable engine is going to cost, no matter what you put on the
alternator side. The breakpoint on cost seems to be at the 5-6KW
point, twice that power costs way more than twice the price. If you
just want some kind of AC out, you can probably cobble something up
from a lawn tractor engine and a surplus alternator. If you want AC
that's got stable voltage AND stable frequency, then that's going to
cost more. You'll have to have some sort of governor that adjusts the
engine speed with the load and does so quickly.

I've dealt with the consequences of having crappy auxilary power when
the 15 KV feeder line got blown down over the channel at the shipyard
and we had to run stuff on borrowed USAF generators for a couple of
weeks. They tried running the computer room on one of the semi-sized
units, was never clean enough to run the computer for more than 20
minutes without crashing and they damaged four disk drives doing it,
several hundred grand's damage from bad power. A minor glitch in the
governor design COULD have expensive consequences if you're trying to
run freezers and refrigerators from your home-built generator.

You have to watch out with the low-ball guys, engines tend to be
chink, ditto alternators, are they going to have parts when you need
them? Things like oil filters tend to be a lot more than their
automotive counterparts for those engines.

Stan

Stanley Schaefer fired this volley in news:fa45f1c3-
:

You have to watch out with the low-ball guys, engines tend to be
chink, ditto alternators, are they going to have parts when you need
them? Things like oil filters tend to be a lot more than their
automotive counterparts for those engines.


Yeah... I cripple along with my 3.5KW job, doing scheduled runs of the
fridges and freezer, but not being able to run much more except a couple
of lights. Have gas for cooking, though.

I was given a "worn out" John Deere estate tractor. It had about 15K
hours on it. Tranny shot, deck shot, frame shot. But the engine is
still good, and currently supported, so a fairly low-cost rebuild should
get it really 'right' (although it runs very well as-is).

It's a 36HP, liquid cooled, 3-cylinder Yanmar diesel WITH a hydraulic
governor. I have known the guy, and coveted the mower for years, so when
he went to junk it, he gave it to me. The thing wouldn't even change
notes when it went from pavement to foot-high grass, so the governor
seems to work really well.

Should be just the trick for a 22KW job. Now, if I can just find an
1800rpm gen-head at the price I'd like to pay...

LLoyd

On Jul 12, 12:59*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Pete C." fired this volley in news:4ffefee4$0
:

*A car
muffler or even a critical grade muffler will do *nothing* to quiet an
air cooled engine as most of the noise emanates from the engine block,
not the exhaust.

Weeelllll... it sure will do _something_ positive. *I have a 1962 Dayton
3.5KW with an old-style updraft 8HP Briggs on it. (It'll run a 4.2KW load
all day).

I replaced the silly pancake muffler with a small, low back pressure
automotive style, and cut the noise level by way more than half.

Yes, the engine makes a lot of noise all by itself, but half as noisy is
still a good deal.

LLoyd



Agreed, but half as noisy as the 13KW the OP was looking for is still
going to be really loud if it's air cooled. Stationary air-cooled
engines have to have large fins, and they tend to amplify the sound a
lot. You can get some relief with rubber dampers between the fins, but
it's still a pretty big sounding board.

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl --

The online big-box for generators appears to be
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....enerators.html

and I was seriously looking at Generacs, woulda bought one some time ago if the
lead time wasn't MONTHS, after all that weather bull**** in the northeast.

Then I started hearing some dicey stuff about the Generac engine AND their crappy
service, and they weren't nearly as quiet as one is led to believe (some youtube
vids).

So ahm still poking around, cuz I really need a backup, and I found
http://www.generatorsales.com/natura...generators.asp

where these guys (in Maine), put together their own generator systems, using nat
gas Honda engines.

Now, here's the Q:

Is this something a half-baked diy-er can do, or is it best left to people who,
well, actually do this? As I understand it, any gasoline engine can be pretty
straightforwardly converted to nat gas, and all's you need is the generator motor
and an automatic voltage regulator -- or so I think.

Or is it the case where it's not so hard to do, put procuring the parts at an
economical price is the difficult part?
Such as http://www.nextag.com/honda-gx630/products-html where they're asking
$12-1300 for the Honda motor itself.... which is already a substantial fraction of
what generatorsales is asking....

Generator sales has a 13,750 W jobbie (double the net wattage of the low-end
Generac), for a few more dollars, and a much simpler (read: reliable?) system it
seems -- ballpark $2,000. Plus you can *talk* to these guys in Maine, without all
the big-box bull****.

Take a look at the Lister engine (google = lister, listeroid). This guy has
an excellent write up on his generator project and includes results. His site
seems to be down, but I found it on the wayback machine.
http://web.archive.org/web/200701290...om/lister.html
I know. It's not nat gas but loads of good info anyway.


Next Q:
Can these things be made substantially quieter with an automotive-type muffler?
An enclosure?

Google a gravel bed muffler. They are supposedly able to quiet exhaust
so you can't hear it from 100 feet away.
Art

Any other companies making affordable nat gas gensets?
--
EA

"Artemus" writes:






Take a look at the Lister engine (google = lister, listeroid). This guy has
an excellent write up on his generator project and includes results. His site
seems to be down, but I found it on the wayback machine.
http://web.archive.org/web/200701290...om/lister.html
I know. It's not nat gas but loads of good info anyway.

Naw, too exotic, and where will you find parts.

[I'm pulling Artemus's leg; the British made them for ~90 years
before stopping; but the Indians have taken over. Only a solid
piece of sculpture would be simplier that a
"Pock-a Pock-a Pock-a.." Lister
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

i

On 2012-07-12, Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

The online big-box for generators appears to be
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....enerators.html

and I was seriously looking at Generacs, woulda bought one some time ago if
the lead time wasn't MONTHS, after all that weather bull**** in the
northeast.

Then I started hearing some dicey stuff about the Generac engine AND their
crappy service, and they weren't nearly as quiet as one is led to believe
(some youtube vids).

So ahm still poking around, cuz I really need a backup, and I found
http://www.generatorsales.com/natura...generators.asp

where these guys (in Maine), put together their own generator systems, using
nat gas Honda engines.

Now, here's the Q:

Is this something a half-baked diy-er can do, or is it best left to people
who, well, actually do this? As I understand it, any gasoline engine can be
pretty straightforwardly converted to nat gas, and all's you need is the
generator motor and an automatic voltage regulator -- or so I think.

Or is it the case where it's not so hard to do, put procuring the parts at
an economical price is the difficult part?
Such as http://www.nextag.com/honda-gx630/products-html where they're
asking $12-1300 for the Honda motor itself.... which is already a
substantial fraction of what generatorsales is asking....

Generator sales has a 13,750 W jobbie (double the net wattage of the low-end
Generac), for a few more dollars, and a much simpler (read: reliable?)
system it seems -- ballpark $2,000. Plus you can *talk* to these guys in
Maine, without all the big-box bull****.

Next Q:
Can these things be made substantially quieter with an automotive-type
muffler? An enclosure?

Any other companies making affordable nat gas gensets?

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Pete C." fired this volley in news:4ffefee4$0
:

A car
muffler or even a critical grade muffler will do *nothing* to quiet an
air cooled engine as most of the noise emanates from the engine block,
not the exhaust.

Weeelllll... it sure will do _something_ positive. I have a 1962 Dayton
3.5KW with an old-style updraft 8HP Briggs on it. (It'll run a 4.2KW load
all day).

I replaced the silly pancake muffler with a small, low back pressure
automotive style, and cut the noise level by way more than half.

Yes, the engine makes a lot of noise all by itself, but half as noisy is
still a good deal.

LLoyd



Agreed, but half as noisy as the 13KW the OP was looking for is still
going to be really loud if it's air cooled. Stationary air-cooled
engines have to have large fins, and they tend to amplify the sound a
lot. You can get some relief with rubber dampers between the fins, but
it's still a pretty big sounding board.
================================================== ===

But.... but.... but, it's a HONDA engine!!!! ???
--
EA

"Existential Angst" fired this volley in
:

3.5 kW, if continuous, is good for almost 30 A -- that should run more
than few fridges and lites, no?

Sure, but except for AC, the fridges and lights are all that will 'fit'a
3.5KW supply. The central AC draws too much inrush for this genset, even
though it would run on 3.5KW. This particular unit quenches the field if
you draw too much current. It's output drops to essentially zero, and
then stays there as long as there is any non-trivial load still present,
even if the inrush demand is removed. Remove the load, and the field
recovers (it's a wound, rotating field alternator, not PM).

The last time we were without power for any real time was after the
hurricane in (what?) 2004 or 2005? During extended power failures, I
won't leave 50 year old unit running continuously, anyway. I have no idea
how many actual hours are on it. So we use lanterns for lights, and run
the refrigerators, and maybe a couple of table fans on shifts, just to
save the victuals and try to stay comfortable.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Existential Angst" fired this volley

3.5 kW, if continuous, is good for almost 30 A -- that should run
more
than few fridges and lites, no?

Sure, but except for AC, the fridges and lights are all that will
'fit'a
3.5KW supply. The central AC draws too much inrush for this genset,
even
though it would run on 3.5KW.

LLoyd

The last time I hosed out my GE window A/C which draws 430W running I
tested it on a 3.5KW (surge) Powermate generator, a simple unit in
which the engine governor spring controls the output voltage.

The A/C started OK the first time, but wouldn't restart until the
internal pressure had time to drop. That generator will start my
Maytag (800W) only if I push the motor in to loosen the belt, and
1/2HP air compressors only if the tank is empty. When overloaded the
current limits at about 25A and the voltage drops. The breaker didn't
open in the short time I took to measure the current.

jsw

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:jtp577$rd7
:

The A/C started OK the first time, but wouldn't restart until the
internal pressure had time to drop. That generator will start my
Maytag (800W) only if I push the motor in to loosen the belt, and
1/2HP air compressors only if the tank is empty. When overloaded the
current limits at about 25A and the voltage drops. The breaker didn't
open in the short time I took to measure the current.

Hmmm... that's characteristic of most consumer-grade gensets these days.

This old 3.5KW Dayton will start both my 3/4HP irrigation pumps at once,
and have run a 2HP well pump on it (for cleanout of a new well, before we
had power). It will run a 6KBTU window AC without any problems, and will
run a 4.2KW resistance heater at 210V all day long.

I run my Lincoln 155 Mig on it for remote jobs all the time at full
current.

The only basic limitations on this unit is that it quenches the field on
overload (that's good), and it only has an 8HP engine.

Unlike most modern gensets, though, it has a MASSIVE rotational inertia.
The alternator itself weighs about 90lb, and the flywheel on the engine
is very large, and cast iron. So it handles surge loads under the quench
current very well.


LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.70...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
news:jtp577$rd7
:

The A/C started OK the first time, but wouldn't restart until the
internal pressure had time to drop. ...

Hmmm... that's characteristic of most consumer-grade gensets these
days.


That's why I described its limitations. There isn't much point in
reviewing something people can't buy, such as most of my 'vintage'
stuff.

jsw

Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:

Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.

300 gal of diesel in your basement is very, very normal. 600 gal is the
max per fire rated space. 300 will give you a two week generator fuel
supply, 600 a month, and that is 24hr operation, far longer if you
economize.

"Pete C." writes:


My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.

300 gal of diesel in your basement is very, very normal. 600 gal is the
max per fire rated space. 300 will give you a two week generator fuel
supply, 600 a month, and that is 24hr operation, far longer if you
economize.

BUT unless you USE it; it grows bugs, you gotta slosh it, add
stuph, and THEN its lifetime is ~2 years.

While #2 Heat & #2 Diesel are the same flashpoint
etc. I wonder how anal code inspectors feel about indoor
storage? Buried is an EPA quagmire; many rules in a watershed,
etc.

You can even bury propane tanks and at least CalFire & Bay Area
local-EPA forks are OK with even 1000gal of that. No way it will
get into water table.

Everything is a compromise.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:

"Pete C." writes:

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.

300 gal of diesel in your basement is very, very normal. 600 gal is the
max per fire rated space. 300 will give you a two week generator fuel
supply, 600 a month, and that is 24hr operation, far longer if you
economize.

BUT unless you USE it; it grows bugs, you gotta slosh it, add
stuph, and THEN its lifetime is ~2 years.

Biocide and diesel tank tampons take care of those issues just fine.


While #2 Heat & #2 Diesel are the same flashpoint
etc. I wonder how anal code inspectors feel about indoor
storage? Buried is an EPA quagmire; many rules in a watershed,
etc.

#2 is #2, and the only difference between the two is red dye and
transportation fuel taxes. Off road diesel a.k.a. heating oil isn't even
high sulfur anymore. I've not ever heard of any sort of permit for a
heating oil tank either. Anything under 1,000 gal and not underground is
most likely exempt from everything.


You can even bury propane tanks and at least CalFire & Bay Area
local-EPA forks are OK with even 1000gal of that. No way it will
get into water table.

You can bury diesel tanks as well, but they have to be double wall with
monitoring.


Everything is a compromise.

Yep, you can always sit in the dark with a refrigerator full of rotted
food...

On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.



EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

i

Ignoramus6598 wrote:
On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.
I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.
My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.



EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

i

Want to bet on that? Check you're local laws and fire laws and you will
usually find set limits WRT on site fuel storage limits.
Even more on transport limits.

That said I have 9 different units that I deal with. 4 are mine , one
4200 portable Generac, one 15 K unit with a tri-fuel GM on it an Onan
propane/gasoline unit in the camper and a small Honda 1000 watt suitcase
unit.

The others are various units for the FD.

For a built in stand-by unit that could handle almost anything get a
tri-fuel unit, those can run on Propane, Natural gas or Gasoline with a
simple twist of a few knobs. You do lose a bit with the gases but not
enough to make a big difference. The ability to use the different fuels
though means you have multiple options.

DIY is possible and if you want to make it much easier don't design for
AC output. Go with DC and an inverter output section.

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." writes:

EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will
not care about a few cans of diesel fuel.

Want to bet on that? Check you're local laws and fire laws
and you will usually find set limits WRT on site fuel storage
limits.

And we are not talking "a few cans of Diesel"....but many gallons.
But to be sure; that will be a Fire Marshal issue, not US EPA.

BTW, someone said a buried Diesel tank is no problem if
monitored/double-shell. I agree the tanks not a problem; the
problem is the permits to allow same, at least in a NorCal
riparian watershed. (I asked...)

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Ignoramus6598 wrote:

On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.



EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.


You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners. We had to rip out
the wiring and run EMT, then reinstall the coax for them.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Ignoramus6598 wrote:

On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.



EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners. We had to rip out
the wiring and run EMT, then reinstall the coax for them.

The EPA knows nothing and couldn't care less about coax or EMT. A local
building inspector or fire marshall perhaps, but not the EPA.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Ignoramus6598 wrote:

On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.



EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners. We had to rip out
the wiring and run EMT, then reinstall the coax for them.

What has that have to do with the EPA?

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:

You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV
coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners.

What interest would EPA have in coax, fire codes, or electrical wiring?

I'm confused. Last time I looked, "EPA" stood for "Environmental
Protection Agency".

They're the guys who wanted to fine me because I was weed-whacking in a
ditch _I_ dug (with a frikin shovel) to drain a corner of my yard, and
they decided it was a natural body of water, and I was killing "water
plants".

FWIW, when I produced actual documentation showing that I had dug it,
they backed off. But, DAMN! If I hadn't had the pictures, they'd have
fined me something around $5000!

LLoyd

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Ignoramus6598 wrote:

On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.



EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners. We had to rip out
the wiring and run EMT, then reinstall the coax for them.

The EPA knows nothing and couldn't care less about coax or EMT. A local
building inspector or fire marshall perhaps, but not the EPA.


I was thinking of OSHA, the other pinko meat.

On 2012-07-14, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus6598 wrote:

On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.



EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.


You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners. We had to rip out
the wiring and run EMT, then reinstall the coax for them.

Really, EPA did this?

i

You also need a very good governor in addition to a voltage regulator.
I'd only focus on 1800 rpm systems, if I were you.
If you do some shopping, you should be able to find a complete used Onan (my
preference) or Kohler for a couple grand or less in the 15KW range. And if
you can get by with 6.5 Kw or so, there are plenty of good used Onan ex RV
gensets out there. I have 3 of those myself. (plus a 30KW genset just
because I can). See:
http://www.spaco.org/onan/myonans.htm

Craigslist and Google can be your friends, just a for used machine tools.
All of them can be converted to natural gas or propane, if they don't
already have it on the one you want.
Some of them even come with "tri-fuel" carburetors.
If you choose, Onan, there's a great Onan forum at:
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1


Pete Stanaitis
-------------

Any other companies making affordable nat gas gensets?

In article , "Lloyd
E. Sponenburgh" says...

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:

You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV
coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners.

What interest would EPA have in coax, fire codes, or electrical wiring?

I'm confused. Last time I looked, "EPA" stood for "Environmental
Protection Agency".

They're the guys who wanted to fine me because I was weed-whacking in a
ditch _I_ dug (with a frikin shovel) to drain a corner of my yard, and
they decided it was a natural body of water, and I was killing "water
plants".

FWIW, when I produced actual documentation showing that I had dug it,
they backed off. But, DAMN! If I hadn't had the pictures, they'd have
fined me something around $5000!

It really is getting toward time to water the tree.

jim on Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:57:19 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Ignoramus6598 wrote:
On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.

EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners. We had to rip out
the wiring and run EMT, then reinstall the coax for them.

What has that have to do with the EPA?

It was a hazard to the environment, ergo, they say they can
regulate it.

Like carbon dioxide.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:

I was thinking of OSHA, the other pinko meat.

Why would OSHA care about un-piped coax? It doesn't carry hazardous
voltages.

Or was it run across the floor in an active work area?


The idiot OSHA inspector claimed that TV coax carried 240 VAC. This
was in the early days when they were allowed to write new regulations in
the field. You would get one inspector who would do something stupid,
then another inspector would follow up and make you do it another way.

On 2012-07-14, Pete S wrote:
You also need a very good governor in addition to a voltage regulator.
I'd only focus on 1800 rpm systems, if I were you.
If you do some shopping, you should be able to find a complete used Onan (my
preference) or Kohler for a couple grand or less in the 15KW range.
And if

I sold one for $1,400, IIRC

you can get by with 6.5 Kw or so, there are plenty of good used Onan ex RV
gensets out there. I have 3 of those myself. (plus a 30KW genset just
because I can). See:
http://www.spaco.org/onan/myonans.htm

Craigslist and Google can be your friends, just a for used machine tools.
All of them can be converted to natural gas or propane, if they don't
already have it on the one you want.
Some of them even come with "tri-fuel" carburetors.
If you choose, Onan, there's a great Onan forum at:
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1


Pete Stanaitis
-------------

Any other companies making affordable nat gas gensets?

David Lesher wrote:
"Steve W." writes:

EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will
not care about a few cans of diesel fuel.

Want to bet on that? Check you're local laws and fire laws
and you will usually find set limits WRT on site fuel storage
limits.

And we are not talking "a few cans of Diesel"....but many gallons.
But to be sure; that will be a Fire Marshal issue, not US EPA.

BTW, someone said a buried Diesel tank is no problem if
monitored/double-shell. I agree the tanks not a problem; the
problem is the permits to allow same, at least in a NorCal
riparian watershed. (I asked...)


Same in NY. Plus with the new regs you will be digging it up every few
years and replacing it, even if there is nothing wrong with it.

The bigger problem with a diesel back up in this area is the winter
cold. Unless you take a lot of precautions and run only winter fuel year
around you could easily end up without a back-up.

One item I was thinking about was either a heat exchanger or going low
tech and installing a second cooling system on the beast. Plumb that
into heating system and you have a second back-up system as well.

--
Steve W.

On 2012-07-14, Steve W. wrote:
David Lesher wrote:
"Steve W." writes:

EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will
not care about a few cans of diesel fuel.

Want to bet on that? Check you're local laws and fire laws
and you will usually find set limits WRT on site fuel storage
limits.

And we are not talking "a few cans of Diesel"....but many gallons.
But to be sure; that will be a Fire Marshal issue, not US EPA.

BTW, someone said a buried Diesel tank is no problem if
monitored/double-shell. I agree the tanks not a problem; the
problem is the permits to allow same, at least in a NorCal
riparian watershed. (I asked...)


Same in NY. Plus with the new regs you will be digging it up every few
years and replacing it, even if there is nothing wrong with it.

The bigger problem with a diesel back up in this area is the winter
cold. Unless you take a lot of precautions and run only winter fuel year
around you could easily end up without a back-up.

One item I was thinking about was either a heat exchanger or going low
tech and installing a second cooling system on the beast. Plumb that
into heating system and you have a second back-up system as well.


It is a little easier for people who own diesel equipment, such as
semis.

i

Ignoramus6598 wrote:
On 2012-07-14, Steve W. wrote:
David Lesher wrote:
"Steve W." writes:

EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will
not care about a few cans of diesel fuel.
Want to bet on that? Check you're local laws and fire laws
and you will usually find set limits WRT on site fuel storage
limits.
And we are not talking "a few cans of Diesel"....but many gallons.
But to be sure; that will be a Fire Marshal issue, not US EPA.

BTW, someone said a buried Diesel tank is no problem if
monitored/double-shell. I agree the tanks not a problem; the
problem is the permits to allow same, at least in a NorCal
riparian watershed. (I asked...)

Same in NY. Plus with the new regs you will be digging it up every few
years and replacing it, even if there is nothing wrong with it.

The bigger problem with a diesel back up in this area is the winter
cold. Unless you take a lot of precautions and run only winter fuel year
around you could easily end up without a back-up.

One item I was thinking about was either a heat exchanger or going low
tech and installing a second cooling system on the beast. Plumb that
into heating system and you have a second back-up system as well.


It is a little easier for people who own diesel equipment, such as
semis.

i

Not really. If you want to save money you won't be using road diesel in
the generator.
Plus for extended run you're looking at least at a 250 gallon tank.

--
Steve W.

pyotr filipivich wrote:

jim on Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:57:19 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Ignoramus6598 wrote:
On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.

EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners. We had to rip out
the wiring and run EMT, then reinstall the coax for them.

What has that have to do with the EPA?

It was a hazard to the environment, ergo, they say they can
regulate it.

Like carbon dioxide.

Sounds like ignorance to me.