Good idea to have a window AC on hand, for such moments. The new ones with
the rotary compressors, don't draw that much power.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Existential Angst" fired this volley in
:

3.5 kW, if continuous, is good for almost 30 A -- that should run more
than few fridges and lites, no?

Sure, but except for AC, the fridges and lights are all that will 'fit'a
3.5KW supply. The central AC draws too much inrush for this genset, even
though it would run on 3.5KW. This particular unit quenches the field if
you draw too much current. It's output drops to essentially zero, and
then stays there as long as there is any non-trivial load still present,
even if the inrush demand is removed. Remove the load, and the field
recovers (it's a wound, rotating field alternator, not PM).

The last time we were without power for any real time was after the
hurricane in (what?) 2004 or 2005? During extended power failures, I
won't leave 50 year old unit running continuously, anyway. I have no idea
how many actual hours are on it. So we use lanterns for lights, and run
the refrigerators, and maybe a couple of table fans on shifts, just to
save the victuals and try to stay comfortable.

LLoyd

Since you're not going down the road in your generator, please consider
using fuel oil. Much lower taxes. Much the same product, dyed different
color.

Second, it's unwise to appear to have power, suring a power cut. People
living near by can be very irritated, and vengeful. Best to stay out of
sight, if at all possible.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Pete C." wrote in message
.com...


My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.

300 gal of diesel in your basement is very, very normal. 600 gal is the
max per fire rated space. 300 will give you a two week generator fuel
supply, 600 a month, and that is 24hr operation, far longer if you
economize.

"Pete C." writes:


BUT unless you USE it; it grows bugs, you gotta slosh it, add
stuph, and THEN its lifetime is ~2 years.

Biocide and diesel tank tampons take care of those issues just fine.

The biocide takes care of the critters, but the Diesel still gets
old. The recommendations I read said "2 year lifespan" with
schemes to add X % new while consuming part of your store.
If you have active consumers of Diesel, such as a bulldozer
or such, that may be enough turnover.

While #2 Heat & #2 Diesel are the same flashpoint
etc. I wonder how anal code inspectors feel about indoor
storage? Buried is an EPA quagmire; many rules in a watershed,
etc.

#2 is #2, and the only difference between the two is red dye and
transportation fuel taxes.

Not true. I worked in the petroleum pipeline business, and
#2 Diesel is different than #2 heating oil. The refinery
engineer I once asked told me that Diesel had higher Cetane
ratings, and other difference. We could {and occasionally
did} downgrade the Diesel into Heat; just as Jet-A would be
downgraded into Kerosene.

The dye is just added at sale, at the terminal that loads the
trucks.

But you miss my point. Even if they *were* the same product;
the AHJ code inspector can point to Rule: 3.14.159 and say: "You
are allowed to have 200 gallons of heating oil. But that's NOT
heating oil; it's generator fuel..."

Off road diesel a.k.a. heating oil isn't even high sulfur
anymore.

Again #2 Heating Oil is not #2 Diesel. And on & off road are the
same; save the tax & dye.

I've not ever heard of any sort of permit for a heating oil
tank either. Anything under 1,000 gal and not underground is
most likely exempt from everything.

You not having heard of such does not mean it's not required
in some other jurisdiction. And I started talking underground
tankage. (If you are in a wildfire area, aboveground storage
is not desirable.)

You can even bury propane tanks and at least CalFire & Bay Area
local-EPA forks are OK with even 1000gal of that. No way it will
get into water table.

You can bury diesel tanks as well, but they have to be double
wall with monitoring.

Call me when you have the permit we'd need in NorCal's area.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:

"Pete C." writes:

BUT unless you USE it; it grows bugs, you gotta slosh it, add
stuph, and THEN its lifetime is ~2 years.

Biocide and diesel tank tampons take care of those issues just fine.

The biocide takes care of the critters, but the Diesel still gets
old. The recommendations I read said "2 year lifespan" with
schemes to add X % new while consuming part of your store.
If you have active consumers of Diesel, such as a bulldozer
or such, that may be enough turnover.

While #2 Heat & #2 Diesel are the same flashpoint
etc. I wonder how anal code inspectors feel about indoor
storage? Buried is an EPA quagmire; many rules in a watershed,
etc.

#2 is #2, and the only difference between the two is red dye and
transportation fuel taxes.

Not true. I worked in the petroleum pipeline business, and
#2 Diesel is different than #2 heating oil. The refinery
engineer I once asked told me that Diesel had higher Cetane
ratings, and other difference. We could {and occasionally
did} downgrade the Diesel into Heat; just as Jet-A would be
downgraded into Kerosene.

Things have changed post-ULSD.


The dye is just added at sale, at the terminal that loads the
trucks.

Bingo, since the product is otherwise identical these days.


But you miss my point. Even if they *were* the same product;
the AHJ code inspector can point to Rule: 3.14.159 and say: "You
are allowed to have 200 gallons of heating oil. But that's NOT
heating oil; it's generator fuel..."

There is no AHJ where I live. 300 gal is the normal home heating oil
tank and 600 gal (two ganged tanks typically) is the maximum per fire
rated space.


Off road diesel a.k.a. heating oil isn't even high sulfur
anymore.

Again #2 Heating Oil is not #2 Diesel. And on & off road are the
same; save the tax & dye.

They are currently. They may not have been some years ago. Tax and dye
are the only difference.


I've not ever heard of any sort of permit for a heating oil
tank either. Anything under 1,000 gal and not underground is
most likely exempt from everything.

You not having heard of such does not mean it's not required
in some other jurisdiction. And I started talking underground
tankage. (If you are in a wildfire area, aboveground storage
is not desirable.)

The PRC is an exception to all sanity and should be anexed from the USA.


You can even bury propane tanks and at least CalFire & Bay Area
local-EPA forks are OK with even 1000gal of that. No way it will
get into water table.

You can bury diesel tanks as well, but they have to be double
wall with monitoring.

Call me when you have the permit we'd need in NorCal's area.

See above.

jim on Sat, 14 Jul 2012 06:24:39 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


pyotr filipivich wrote:

jim on Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:57:19 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Ignoramus6598 wrote:
On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.

EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners. We had to rip out
the wiring and run EMT, then reinstall the coax for them.

What has that have to do with the EPA?

It was a hazard to the environment, ergo, they say they can
regulate it.

Like carbon dioxide.

Sounds like ignorance to me.

Probably was, but then what has ignorance of reality have to do
with bureaucratic directives?
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

On 2012-07-14, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 14:17:11 -0500, Ignoramus6598
wrote:

On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.



EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

i

Actually..EPA IS a Gestapo. Try California Air Resources Board for even
bigger Gestapo



CARB is a lot worse that a gestapo, **** them for "carb fuel cans".

i

pyotr filipivich wrote:


Sounds like ignorance to me.

Probably was, but then what has ignorance of reality have to do
with bureaucratic directives?

Sounds more like ignorant speculation of what
bureaucratic directive might be.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 11:09:29 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


David Lesher wrote:

"Pete C." writes:

BUT unless you USE it; it grows bugs, you gotta slosh it, add
stuph, and THEN its lifetime is ~2 years.

Biocide and diesel tank tampons take care of those issues just fine.

The biocide takes care of the critters, but the Diesel still gets
old. The recommendations I read said "2 year lifespan" with
schemes to add X % new while consuming part of your store.
If you have active consumers of Diesel, such as a bulldozer
or such, that may be enough turnover.

While #2 Heat & #2 Diesel are the same flashpoint
etc. I wonder how anal code inspectors feel about indoor
storage? Buried is an EPA quagmire; many rules in a watershed,
etc.

#2 is #2, and the only difference between the two is red dye and
transportation fuel taxes.

Not true. I worked in the petroleum pipeline business, and
#2 Diesel is different than #2 heating oil. The refinery
engineer I once asked told me that Diesel had higher Cetane
ratings, and other difference. We could {and occasionally
did} downgrade the Diesel into Heat; just as Jet-A would be
downgraded into Kerosene.

Things have changed post-ULSD.


The dye is just added at sale, at the terminal that loads the
trucks.

Bingo, since the product is otherwise identical these days.


But you miss my point. Even if they *were* the same product;
the AHJ code inspector can point to Rule: 3.14.159 and say: "You
are allowed to have 200 gallons of heating oil. But that's NOT
heating oil; it's generator fuel..."

There is no AHJ where I live. 300 gal is the normal home heating oil
tank and 600 gal (two ganged tanks typically) is the maximum per fire
rated space.


Off road diesel a.k.a. heating oil isn't even high sulfur
anymore.

Again #2 Heating Oil is not #2 Diesel. And on & off road are the
same; save the tax & dye.

They are currently. They may not have been some years ago. Tax and dye
are the only difference.


I've not ever heard of any sort of permit for a heating oil
tank either. Anything under 1,000 gal and not underground is
most likely exempt from everything.

You not having heard of such does not mean it's not required
in some other jurisdiction. And I started talking underground
tankage. (If you are in a wildfire area, aboveground storage
is not desirable.)

The PRC is an exception to all sanity and should be anexed from the USA.


You can even bury propane tanks and at least CalFire & Bay Area
local-EPA forks are OK with even 1000gal of that. No way it will
get into water table.

You can bury diesel tanks as well, but they have to be double
wall with monitoring.

Call me when you have the permit we'd need in NorCal's area.

See above.

I mostly agree with you but even though they come out the same
"spigot" there is one difference- diesel is filtered more at the
refinery than #2 heating oil. The only downside to this is you'll
need to changed your fuel filters more often.

H.

On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 01:49:59 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

Agreed, but half as noisy as the 13KW the OP was looking for is still
going to be really loud if it's air cooled. Stationary air-cooled
engines have to have large fins, and they tend to amplify the sound a
lot. You can get some relief with rubber dampers between the fins, but
it's still a pretty big sounding board.
================================================= ====

But.... but.... but, it's a HONDA engine!!!! ???

You can quiet down an air-cooled engine, but you'd have to put it in
a rather elaborate sound dampening enclosure, with a foam-lined
labyrinth for killing sound radiation from both the entering cold air
and the departing hot air.

It isn't worth the hassle - Start with a liquid cooled engine and make
the job a lot easier at the start. A good muffler and resonator will
cut the exhaust note. And you want a big-bite slow speed cooling fan
on the radiator, keep the blade tip speed subsonic.

And if the radiator is remote mounted on the roof so the hot air is
totally separate from the engine room, you don't need huge labyrinths
for the block compartment and generator head cooling air in and out.

-- Bruce --

"Pete C." writes:


Not true. I worked in the petroleum pipeline business, and
#2 Diesel is different than #2 heating oil. The refinery
engineer I once asked told me that Diesel had higher Cetane
ratings, and other difference. We could {and occasionally
did} downgrade the Diesel into Heat; just as Jet-A would be
downgraded into Kerosene.

Things have changed post-ULSD.

So I called an old cow orker who has retired TWICE from a
major oil company, one known best or should I say worse by its
initials. {He left; worked as a contractor; they hired him
back; few years later he retired again; then they had a leak you
read about; and they hired him back AGAIN for support work on
shore.....}

He confirms they absolutely make the following distillate products:

Jet-A
Kerosene
#2 Diesel
#2 Heating Oil

The later two differ more than than when I worked there, by
virtue of the sulfur level in the Diesel. The Diesel goes for
lots more than Heat; even untaxed.

The sole difference between "road" Diesel and "off-road"
Diesel is the tax charged at sale, and the dye added
then/there. {"Sale" here means where it's loaded onto a truck;
not where the truck unloads.}

But you miss my point. Even if they *were* the same product;
the AHJ code inspector can point to Rule: 3.14.159 and say: "You
are allowed to have 200 gallons of heating oil. But that's NOT
heating oil; it's generator fuel..."

There is no AHJ where I live. 300 gal is the normal home heating oil
tank and 600 gal (two ganged tanks typically) is the maximum per fire
rated space.

There are no code, building or fire inspectors there; state or local?????
No building codes at all?



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:

"Pete C." writes:

Not true. I worked in the petroleum pipeline business, and
#2 Diesel is different than #2 heating oil. The refinery
engineer I once asked told me that Diesel had higher Cetane
ratings, and other difference. We could {and occasionally
did} downgrade the Diesel into Heat; just as Jet-A would be
downgraded into Kerosene.

Things have changed post-ULSD.

So I called an old cow orker who has retired TWICE from a
major oil company, one known best or should I say worse by its
initials. {He left; worked as a contractor; they hired him
back; few years later he retired again; then they had a leak you
read about; and they hired him back AGAIN for support work on
shore.....}

He confirms they absolutely make the following distillate products:

Jet-A
Kerosene
#2 Diesel
#2 Heating Oil

The later two differ more than than when I worked there, by
virtue of the sulfur level in the Diesel. The Diesel goes for
lots more than Heat; even untaxed.

The sole difference between "road" Diesel and "off-road"
Diesel is the tax charged at sale, and the dye added
then/there. {"Sale" here means where it's loaded onto a truck;
not where the truck unloads.}

But you miss my point. Even if they *were* the same product;
the AHJ code inspector can point to Rule: 3.14.159 and say: "You
are allowed to have 200 gallons of heating oil. But that's NOT
heating oil; it's generator fuel..."

There is no AHJ where I live. 300 gal is the normal home heating oil
tank and 600 gal (two ganged tanks typically) is the maximum per fire
rated space.

There are no code, building or fire inspectors there; state or local?????
No building codes at all?

Nope, outside city limits. Only permits for septic systems. When you go
to the building department of the city your listed as by the post office
to check on a permit for electrical work and they tell you you're
outside city limits and don't need a permit, that's pretty conclusive.

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:500371e9$0
:

When you go
to the building department of the city your listed as by the post
office
to check on a permit for electrical work and they tell you you're
outside city limits and don't need a permit, that's pretty conclusive.

Actually, that's only "conclusive" concerning that you don't need a
permit for that work. It doesn't mean there isn't an AHJ responsible for
it.

AHJ means "authority having jurisdiction". No matter what you think,
there IS an AHJ concerning fire code compliance in your county. There is
one for electrical work -- even in the outlying county. I don't believe
(say) Toyota could come in and build a full-up auto assembly plant with
no permits and no inspections, outside city limits, or not. There are
AHJs in your county for a number of disciplines.

That your fuel tank may or may not require a permit is an entirely
different matter from whether or not there is an AHJ (for each and every
endeavor they think there should be one).

LLoyd

On Jul 13, 8:33*pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Ignoramus6598 wrote:

On 2012-07-13, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus18299 writes:

I have a used diesel generator (Cummins 25 kW) and like it a lot.

I also do not depend on supply of natural gas.

My view is unless you are in earthshake territory; natural gas
is highly dependable. *Diesel is a PITA to store in quantity;
and in large enough volumes you have to deal with EPA/local
equivalents.

EPA is not some kind of a gestapo, it will not know and will not care
about a few cans of diesel fuel.

* You're wrong, as usual. They threw a hissy fit when they found TV coax
in a store that wasn't in EMT and fined the owners. *We had to rip out
the wiring and run EMT, then reinstall the coax for them.

The EPA knows nothing and couldn't care less about coax or EMT. A local
building inspector or fire marshall perhaps, but not the EPA.

* *I was thinking of OSHA, the other pinko meat.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Having a Rick Perry moment?

Laugh..laugh..laugh..

TMT

On 07/15/2012 10:44 AM, Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

And if the radiator is remote mounted on the roof so the hot air is
totally separate from the engine room, you don't need huge labyrinths
for the block compartment and generator head cooling air in and out.

Or you could put the radiator in the house and use it for heating in the
winter. How many watts of heat would a typical 4-cylinder radiator put
out, anyway?

Jon

A gallon of fuel oil is 135,000 BTU, if memory serves. You could figure out
how long it takes to burn a gallon of gasoline, and do some math. Gasoline
would be different BTU, but at least you're in the ball park.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...

Or you could put the radiator in the house and use it for heating in the
winter. How many watts of heat would a typical 4-cylinder radiator put
out, anyway?

Jon

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:07:51 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Or you could put the radiator in the house and use it for heating in the
winter. How many watts of heat would a typical 4-cylinder radiator put
out, anyway?

Jon


Perhaps two radiators, one inside, one outside, with a diverter vale
to select the most appropriate one depending on the weather??

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...

Or you could put the radiator in the house and use it for heating in
the winter. How many watts of heat would a typical 4-cylinder
radiator put out, anyway?
Jon

My 1940's aircraft engine book puts it at around 1/8 of the energy in
the fuel. 1/2 goes out the exhaust.

jsw

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 08:47:40 -0700, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 07/15/2012 10:44 AM, Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

And if the radiator is remote mounted on the roof so the hot air is
totally separate from the engine room, you don't need huge labyrinths
for the block compartment and generator head cooling air in and out.

Or you could put the radiator in the house and use it for heating in the
winter. How many watts of heat would a typical 4-cylinder radiator put
out, anyway?

Easily enough to heat the house to 120F in an hour and a half.
Regulation would be the hard part. /swag

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

Or you could put the radiator in the house and use it for heating in
the
winter. How many watts of heat would a typical 4-cylinder radiator
put
out, anyway?

Easily enough to heat the house to 120F in an hour and a half.
Regulation would be the hard part. /swag

I guess you've never heated a house with a hand-fed wood stove.

jsw

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:35:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

Or you could put the radiator in the house and use it for heating in
the
winter. How many watts of heat would a typical 4-cylinder radiator
put
out, anyway?

Easily enough to heat the house to 120F in an hour and a half.
Regulation would be the hard part. /swag

I guess you've never heated a house with a hand-fed wood stove.

Certainly not on purpose. I hate smoke-leaking, er, woodburning
stoves. No regulation, smoke everywhere, stratified heat levels.

They get an F for complete failure in my book. Gimme gas-fired forced
air, _any_ day. I ripped crappy, expensive old 240v electric
baseboard heat and a broken (cracked flue) fireplace out of here when
I moved in.

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Certainly not on purpose. I hate smoke-leaking, er, woodburning
stoves. No regulation, smoke everywhere, stratified heat levels.

Sounds like _someone_ needs some lessons in using a wood stove! G

None of what you wrote is true of a well-made, well _used_ wood burning
stove.

About as close as it comes is that the room in which the stove is located
will be the warmest one.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Larry Jaques fired this volley
in
:

Certainly not on purpose. I hate smoke-leaking, er, woodburning
stoves. No regulation, smoke everywhere, stratified heat levels.

Sounds like _someone_ needs some lessons in using a wood stove! G

None of what you wrote is true of a well-made, well _used_ wood
burning
stove.

About as close as it comes is that the room in which the stove is
located
will be the warmest one.

LLoyd

Agreed, but I needed several years, remote thermocouple readouts, a
draft vacuum gauge, and a mirror outside that shows the chimney top
while I adjust the air inlet to learn how to use it well. The best air
setting varies with outdoor temperature (draft vacuum) so I need a
full winter to see the entire effect of any other change like chimney
height or sealing leaks.

When everything is right it will hold a steady temperature with no
visible smoke from the chimney for about an hour on three very dry 16"
oak pieces roughly the size of my palm, my splitting gauge.

I still can't quite keep its temperature stable at the higher feed
rate cooking requires, so one channel of the readout shows the
temperature of the pot lid to show when it reaches boiling. The
display jumps quickly from 60C to 90C.

jsw

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 06:00:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Certainly not on purpose. I hate smoke-leaking, er, woodburning
stoves. No regulation, smoke everywhere, stratified heat levels.

Sounds like _someone_ needs some lessons in using a wood stove! G

Au contraire, mon ami. I even taught my ex-BIL how not to smoke up a
room while adding wood. He'd hover over the damned fire for half an
hour, smoke filling the damned house every time. I finally cured him
of that.


None of what you wrote is true of a well-made, well _used_ wood burning
stove.

I'd love to find a wood-stove-heated house which did NOT have smoke
smell, but I haven't yet, and lots of folks here have the damned
things. And I've rented books from the library which reeked of
woodsmoke, too.


About as close as it comes is that the room in which the stove is located
will be the warmest one.

Unless you use fans in every room, they'll be badly stratified,
PERIOD. (The laws of physics aren't easily denied.)

And for those of you who think you're being eco-smart, wood stoves
pollute 20-100 times more than other forms of heating. During a day
of inversion, I drove through Merlin, OR fog/smoke only to find a
single badly-managed woodstove the cause of the entire area's
distress. It must have been wet **** oak, too, because it reeked to
high heavens. I've never been so amazed at the source of a pollution
as that one. I saw it later in the town, too, so it's a common
problem there when the winds stop. Horrible!

My next-door neighbor has an extremely efficient pellet stove, and it
reeks downwind, too. His house doesn't smell like smoke because he's
very careful not to open it when running. This type of stove is much
less offensive, but they still suffer from stratification of air.

Nope, I'm no fan of woodsmoking stoves.

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

I heated my whole house in (admittedly mild Florida) winter for six years
with one. I can honestly say that other than the creosote odor that came
out while the doors were open, I never had so much as a wisp of smoke or
smoke odor in the house.

I did have an external combustion air supply, in order not to suck good
heated air back out the stack, and it was a good-quality gasketed stove.

It was placed in a room that had no door headers exiting to the rest of
the house, and we had "passive returns" across all doors to bedrooms,
etc, so that may have been the reason the heat did not "stratify", as he
says.

If we wanted to warm up a room quickly, we'd use a fan on the floor to
exhaust cold air back from that room into the great room. Otherwise, no.

We loved it. Now I live in a "hermetically sealed" house, and don't
really like the odors that accumulate in it during window-shut seasons.

Lloyd

Sounds like time to drill a hole, or two?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...

We loved it. Now I live in a "hermetically sealed" house, and don't
really like the odors that accumulate in it during window-shut seasons.

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
...
We loved it. Now I live in a "hermetically sealed" house, and don't
really like the odors that accumulate in it during window-shut
seasons.

Lloyd

I tightened up the doors and windows and attic hatch in the main
first-floor living space but not so much in the basement where the
woodstove is. When the stove is hot it heats some of the floor-level
cold air drawn in by the chimney flow, enough to clear out fried onion
smell in 3-4 hours. When it's cold the air exchange nearly stops, the
basement slowly cools as it trades residual warmth with upstairs.

jsw

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 16:42:31 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I heated my whole house in (admittedly mild Florida) winter for six years
with one. I can honestly say that other than the creosote odor that came
out while the doors were open, I never had so much as a wisp of smoke or
smoke odor in the house.

I did have an external combustion air supply, in order not to suck good
heated air back out the stack, and it was a good-quality gasketed stove.

It was placed in a room that had no door headers exiting to the rest of
the house, and we had "passive returns" across all doors to bedrooms,
etc, so that may have been the reason the heat did not "stratify", as he
says.

If we wanted to warm up a room quickly, we'd use a fan on the floor to
exhaust cold air back from that room into the great room. Otherwise, no.

We loved it. Now I live in a "hermetically sealed" house, and don't
really like the odors that accumulate in it during window-shut seasons.

Lloyd
From 1982 till '94 I worked monday till thursday in a building that
was advertise, when it was built in '77, to be the most energy
efficient office building in Canada. The only place I ever worked
where I could break wind thursday afternoon and still smell it monday
morning!
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

wrote:

From 1982 till '94 I worked monday till thursday in a building that
was advertise, when it was built in '77, to be the most energy
efficient office building in Canada. The only place I ever worked
where I could break wind thursday afternoon and still smell it monday
morning!


You needed to change your diet so that you didn't break wind.

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.3.70...
Larry Jaques fired this volley
in
:

Certainly not on purpose. I hate smoke-leaking, er, woodburning
stoves. No regulation, smoke everywhere, stratified heat levels.

Sounds like _someone_ needs some lessons in using a wood stove! G

None of what you wrote is true of a well-made, well _used_ wood
burning
stove.

About as close as it comes is that the room in which the stove is
located
will be the warmest one.

LLoyd

Agreed, but I needed several years, remote thermocouple readouts, a
draft vacuum gauge, and a mirror outside that shows the chimney top
while I adjust the air inlet to learn how to use it well. The best air
setting varies with outdoor temperature (draft vacuum) so I need a
full winter to see the entire effect of any other change like chimney
height or sealing leaks.


Amazing! Americans heated their houses with wood burning devices since
the country was settled. The Franklin Stove was invented in 1741 and
today's generation has to "learn" how to use a wood stove.

When everything is right it will hold a steady temperature with no
visible smoke from the chimney for about an hour on three very dry 16"
oak pieces roughly the size of my palm, my splitting gauge.

I still can't quite keep its temperature stable at the higher feed
rate cooking requires, so one channel of the readout shows the
temperature of the pot lid to show when it reaches boiling. The
display jumps quickly from 60C to 90C.

jsw

Funny, my grandmothers cooked for years on wood stoves (my maternal
grandmother until she died, during in the winter months). I doubt that
they ever had formal training in stove management or a digital
thermometer.

Ah! The wisdom of the ancients.
Cheers,
John B.

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:07:52 -0400, the renowned
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 16:42:31 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I heated my whole house in (admittedly mild Florida) winter for six years
with one. I can honestly say that other than the creosote odor that came
out while the doors were open, I never had so much as a wisp of smoke or
smoke odor in the house.

I did have an external combustion air supply, in order not to suck good
heated air back out the stack, and it was a good-quality gasketed stove.

It was placed in a room that had no door headers exiting to the rest of
the house, and we had "passive returns" across all doors to bedrooms,
etc, so that may have been the reason the heat did not "stratify", as he
says.

If we wanted to warm up a room quickly, we'd use a fan on the floor to
exhaust cold air back from that room into the great room. Otherwise, no.

We loved it. Now I live in a "hermetically sealed" house, and don't
really like the odors that accumulate in it during window-shut seasons.

Lloyd
From 1982 till '94 I worked monday till thursday in a building that
was advertise, when it was built in '77, to be the most energy
efficient office building in Canada. The only place I ever worked
where I could break wind thursday afternoon and still smell it monday
morning!

700 University?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:25:42 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
8.3.70...
Larry Jaques fired this volley
in
:

Certainly not on purpose. I hate smoke-leaking, er, woodburning
stoves. No regulation, smoke everywhere, stratified heat levels.

Sounds like _someone_ needs some lessons in using a wood stove! G

None of what you wrote is true of a well-made, well _used_ wood
burning
stove.

About as close as it comes is that the room in which the stove is
located
will be the warmest one.

LLoyd

Agreed, but I needed several years, remote thermocouple readouts, a
draft vacuum gauge, and a mirror outside that shows the chimney top
while I adjust the air inlet to learn how to use it well. The best air
setting varies with outdoor temperature (draft vacuum) so I need a
full winter to see the entire effect of any other change like chimney
height or sealing leaks.


Amazing! Americans heated their houses with wood burning devices since
the country was settled. The Franklin Stove was invented in 1741 and
today's generation has to "learn" how to use a wood stove.

When everything is right it will hold a steady temperature with no
visible smoke from the chimney for about an hour on three very dry 16"
oak pieces roughly the size of my palm, my splitting gauge.

I still can't quite keep its temperature stable at the higher feed
rate cooking requires, so one channel of the readout shows the
temperature of the pot lid to show when it reaches boiling. The
display jumps quickly from 60C to 90C.

jsw

Funny, my grandmothers cooked for years on wood stoves (my maternal
grandmother until she died, during in the winter months). I doubt that
they ever had formal training in stove management or a digital
thermometer.

But she probably served at least a twelve year apprenticeship, and as
far as digital thermometers, my Gran would lick her finger and judge
the temperature by the sound when she tapped the hot object - digital
or what?

Ah! The wisdom of the ancients.
Cheers,
John B.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:06:31 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

From 1982 till '94 I worked monday till thursday in a building that
was advertise, when it was built in '77, to be the most energy
efficient office building in Canada. The only place I ever worked
where I could break wind thursday afternoon and still smell it monday
morning!


You needed to change your diet so that you didn't break wind.
Twelve years in that ZOO and I took a retirement package - best move I
ever made - went out with less than 50% pension and started to enjoy
life at 55! Of course I still haven't figured out how I ever had time
to go to work!
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 22:33:20 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:07:52 -0400, the renowned
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 16:42:31 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I heated my whole house in (admittedly mild Florida) winter for six years
with one. I can honestly say that other than the creosote odor that came
out while the doors were open, I never had so much as a wisp of smoke or
smoke odor in the house.

I did have an external combustion air supply, in order not to suck good
heated air back out the stack, and it was a good-quality gasketed stove.

It was placed in a room that had no door headers exiting to the rest of
the house, and we had "passive returns" across all doors to bedrooms,
etc, so that may have been the reason the heat did not "stratify", as he
says.

If we wanted to warm up a room quickly, we'd use a fan on the floor to
exhaust cold air back from that room into the great room. Otherwise, no.

We loved it. Now I live in a "hermetically sealed" house, and don't
really like the odors that accumulate in it during window-shut seasons.

Lloyd
From 1982 till '94 I worked monday till thursday in a building that
was advertise, when it was built in '77, to be the most energy
efficient office building in Canada. The only place I ever worked
where I could break wind thursday afternoon and still smell it monday
morning!

700 University?

4900 Yonge St.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

"John B." wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
...

Funny, my grandmothers cooked for years on wood stoves (my maternal
grandmother until she died, during in the winter months). I doubt
that
they ever had formal training in stove management or a digital
thermometer.

Ah! The wisdom of the ancients.
Cheers,
John B.

The differences are a tight modern house, concern for the smoke, and
not being near the stove all the time. I grew up in an 1830 house with
fireplaces and a coal furnace and my sister still cooked on a
woodstove until a few years ago.

jsw

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:ju65sh$2vh
:

The differences are a tight modern house, concern for the smoke, and
not being near the stove all the time. I grew up in an 1830 house with
fireplaces and a coal furnace and my sister still cooked on a
woodstove until a few years ago.

Now, the houses that really stank were those regularly lighted by
kerosene lanterns.

When I was growing up in rural Florida, we still had a few "old folks" in
the communiity living in houses without power, and without any intent to
ever get power. They had hand-pumped wells, out-houses, wood heating and
cookstoves, and kerosene lamps for nighttime lighting.

And boy, you could really SMELL the kerosene in the walls, rugs,
clothing, EVERYTHING, when you went to visit one of them! You'd smell it
for hours after you left.

LLoyd

wrote in message
...


But she probably served at least a twelve year apprenticeship, and
as
far as digital thermometers, my Gran would lick her finger and judge
the temperature by the sound when she tapped the hot object -
digital
or what?

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

Having thicker, calloused male skin I put my fingers where the food
will be and count. Two to three is about right, eight is too cool.
That's a Boy Scout "digital" thermometer.

My sister used to get upset every Thanksgiving when the men passed the
hot dishes with our mechanic's hands after she warned us they were too
hot. She stopped after I showed her a deep cut that hadn't bled. Then
she realized that our hands are like her feet.

On a wood stove, a good cooking heat is when water droplets ball up
and bounce instead of wetting the surface.

I can be very high tech or very low, aerospace and axes.

jsw

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:ju67r2$d89$1
@dont-email.me:

On a wood stove, a good cooking heat is when water droplets ball up
and bounce instead of wetting the surface.

I remember an old saying from a black cook -- "If it sizzles when you spit,
it ain't hot enough!"

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message

When I was growing up in rural Florida, we still had a few "old
folks" in
the communiity living in houses without power, and without any
intent to
ever get power. They had hand-pumped wells, out-houses, wood
heating and
cookstoves, and kerosene lamps for nighttime lighting.

And boy, you could really SMELL the kerosene in the walls, rugs,
clothing, EVERYTHING, when you went to visit one of them! You'd
smell it
for hours after you left.

LLoyd

My grandparents in rural Alabama lived like that when I was little,
but I don't remember much kerosine smell over the barnyard odor, which
I quickly got used to. Anyway they went to bed and got up pretty much
with the sun.

jsw

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:07:52 -0400, grmiller wrote:

(...)

From 1982 till '94 I worked monday till thursday in a building that was
advertise, when it was built in '77, to be the most energy efficient
office building in Canada. The only place I ever worked where I could
break wind thursday afternoon and still smell it monday morning!

At my last employer, punishment for complaining about management
sabotage consisted of moving the employee to an area of the
building with no HVAC or any kind of air circulation at all.
It was pretty pungent (I hear tell.)

--Winston

On 18 Jul 2012 14:19:37 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:07:52 -0400, grmiller wrote:

(...)

From 1982 till '94 I worked monday till thursday in a building that was
advertise, when it was built in '77, to be the most energy efficient
office building in Canada. The only place I ever worked where I could
break wind thursday afternoon and still smell it monday morning!

At my last employer, punishment for complaining about management
sabotage consisted of moving the employee to an area of the
building with no HVAC or any kind of air circulation at all.
It was pretty pungent (I hear tell.)

--Winston
In order to accomplish my four day work schedule, I worked 7:30 AM
till 6:00 PM. The air handling unit shut down at 5:00 and BOY did that
place get stuffy in a hurry!
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada