Supposing a guy wanted to put a hidden identifier in a product. Would it be
possible to put something such as a chip they use on a dog or cat in there?
It would have to hold up to some VERY substantial use, temperatures,
vibration, etc. I would imagine those used on cats and dogs are a
synthetic, and those might not last. Or maybe just a nameplate may have to
suffice, as a lot of the parts would be able to be disassembled. Or a
stamped SN.

Steve

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:32:01 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:

Supposing a guy wanted to put a hidden identifier in a product. Would it be
possible to put something such as a chip they use on a dog or cat in there?
It would have to hold up to some VERY substantial use, temperatures,
vibration, etc. I would imagine those used on cats and dogs are a
synthetic, and those might not last. Or maybe just a nameplate may have to
suffice, as a lot of the parts would be able to be disassembled. Or a
stamped SN.

Steve

Hertel has used them since the mid-'80s as identifiers for CNC
toolholders, for keeping inventory and for automated
selecting/loading/programming of offsets.

They embed the chip like some retailers are now doing with products on
their shelves. It's on the surface of the metal, sunk into a recess.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2012-04-14, Steve B wrote:
Supposing a guy wanted to put a hidden identifier in a product. Would it be
possible to put something such as a chip they use on a dog or cat in there?
It would have to hold up to some VERY substantial use, temperatures,
vibration, etc. I would imagine those used on cats and dogs are a
synthetic, and those might not last. Or maybe just a nameplate may have to
suffice, as a lot of the parts would be able to be disassembled. Or a
stamped SN.

What are you trying to accomplish, prove ownership, or have an
automatic inventory system?

i

"Ignoramus31455" wrote

What are you trying to accomplish, prove ownership, or have an
automatic inventory system?

i

Identify ownership. During the 70's Hughes Tool Company (Howard Hughes oil
drill bits) could not be purchased. They were leased. There was NO doubt
EVER about ownership. Hughes owned it, and they never sold it, only leased
it. A bit had to be accompanied with proper lease papers, or it was
considered stolen property, and recoverable by any Hughes agent, LEO, or
just a savvy oilfield worker who could take it to Hughes and get a bounty.
NOBODY EVER owned one. There was no question.

I am investigating this for my equipment. Of course, I would have to have
an enforcer and collector, but I think it would be worth it. I just don't
really think in my heart of hearts that a chip idea would work.

Steve

Steve B wrote:
"Ignoramus31455" wrote

What are you trying to accomplish, prove ownership, or have an
automatic inventory system?

i

Identify ownership. During the 70's Hughes Tool Company (Howard Hughes oil
drill bits) could not be purchased. They were leased. There was NO doubt
EVER about ownership. Hughes owned it, and they never sold it, only leased
it. A bit had to be accompanied with proper lease papers, or it was
considered stolen property, and recoverable by any Hughes agent, LEO, or
just a savvy oilfield worker who could take it to Hughes and get a bounty.
NOBODY EVER owned one. There was no question.

I am investigating this for my equipment. Of course, I would have to have
an enforcer and collector, but I think it would be worth it. I just don't
really think in my heart of hearts that a chip idea would work.

Steve



The chips would work BUT if the product is metal you probably won't be
able to detect it due to the rf shielding.
Same problem with most of the remote ID methods.

You could try something with UV paint or IR reflective paints.

--
Steve W.

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:32:01 -0700, Steve B wrote:

Supposing a guy wanted to put a hidden identifier in a product. Would
it be possible to put something such as a chip they use on a dog or cat
in there? It would have to hold up to some VERY substantial use,
temperatures, vibration, etc. I would imagine those used on cats and
dogs are a synthetic, and those might not last. Or maybe just a
nameplate may have to suffice, as a lot of the parts would be able to be
disassembled. Or a stamped SN.

They're called "chips" because they're a little radio on a silicon chip.

Run of the mill silicon circuits will withstand storage from -40C to +100
or 125C; better ones will go from -55C to +175C. Operating temperatures
will run from 0C to +70C for run-of-the-mill to -40 to +125C for
"automotive" -- there's some high temperature stuff out there, but
probably not RFID chips.

You certainly can't just toss one into the melt when you go to pour a
casting.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 19:35:45 -0700, Steve B wrote:

"Ignoramus31455" wrote

What are you trying to accomplish, prove ownership, or have an
automatic inventory system?

i

Identify ownership. During the 70's Hughes Tool Company (Howard Hughes
oil drill bits) could not be purchased. They were leased. There was NO
doubt EVER about ownership. Hughes owned it, and they never sold it,
only leased it. A bit had to be accompanied with proper lease papers,
or it was considered stolen property, and recoverable by any Hughes
agent, LEO, or just a savvy oilfield worker who could take it to Hughes
and get a bounty. NOBODY EVER owned one. There was no question.

I am investigating this for my equipment. Of course, I would have to
have an enforcer and collector, but I think it would be worth it. I
just don't really think in my heart of hearts that a chip idea would
work.

Again, what are you trying to accomplish? I wouldn't depend on the chip
as your last line of defense against thieves or forgers. You can use
them as a first -- and convenient -- line of defense, but ultimately I
think you'll want to have a secret serial number embedded in the thing in
at least one, if not several places.

I'd consider things like:

* serial numbers stamped on mating surfaces or inside of cases,
that require disassembly to see.
* serial numbers that are otherwise incorporated into machined
surfaces in such a way that obliterating the serial number
means having to rebuild the machine.
* serial numbers encoded in tungsten or lead, behind a
welded-in boss, so they'll show up in an inspection x-ray
* Cast your company name and the model number into the parts,
and _never ever_ sell anything -- so that if it ever comes
to a court case you can document that nothing has been
released into the wild.

And remember that no matter how good a lock you put on your door, if the
stuff inside the building is attractive enough the thieves will just cut
through the wall or tunnel through the floor -- the only anti-theft
device that works perfectly is to destroy what you value in a big hot
fire, and that doesn't help you much.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On 4/14/2012 10:15 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:32:01 -0700, Steve B wrote:

Supposing a guy wanted to put a hidden identifier in a product. Would
it be possible to put something such as a chip they use on a dog or cat
in there? It would have to hold up to some VERY substantial use,
temperatures, vibration, etc. I would imagine those used on cats and
dogs are a synthetic, and those might not last. Or maybe just a
nameplate may have to suffice, as a lot of the parts would be able to be
disassembled. Or a stamped SN.

They're called "chips" because they're a little radio on a silicon chip.

Run of the mill silicon circuits will withstand storage from -40C to +100
or 125C; better ones will go from -55C to +175C. Operating temperatures
will run from 0C to +70C for run-of-the-mill to -40 to +125C for
"automotive" -- there's some high temperature stuff out there, but
probably not RFID chips.

You certainly can't just toss one into the melt when you go to pour a
casting.


But, what you can do is to have a cavity into which you pour a filler
with a unique composition for each item. or if you want to use RFID,
have a cavity filled with a unique epoxy with a chip in there. You may
also look at how companies like CISCO do this

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 01:13:30 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

Steve B wrote:
"Ignoramus31455" wrote

What are you trying to accomplish, prove ownership, or have an
automatic inventory system?

i

Identify ownership. During the 70's Hughes Tool Company (Howard Hughes
oil drill bits) could not be purchased. They were leased. There was
NO doubt EVER about ownership. Hughes owned it, and they never sold
it, only leased it. A bit had to be accompanied with proper lease
papers, or it was considered stolen property, and recoverable by any
Hughes agent, LEO, or just a savvy oilfield worker who could take it to
Hughes and get a bounty. NOBODY EVER owned one. There was no question.

I am investigating this for my equipment. Of course, I would have to
have an enforcer and collector, but I think it would be worth it. I
just don't really think in my heart of hearts that a chip idea would
work.

Steve



The chips would work BUT if the product is metal you probably won't be
able to detect it due to the rf shielding. Same problem with most of the
remote ID methods.

You could try something with UV paint or IR reflective paints.

Well, Ed Huntress has mentioned that Hertel has done the "chip in a
channel" thing with success.

Presumably this would work with a low-frequency RFID chip. It might
reduce the range from yards down to inches -- but hey, if it works, it
works.

Some unique epoxy that's hard to counterfeit and easy to analyze would be
nice -- embed little plastic logos in it or something?

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

"Bill" wrote

But, what you can do is to have a cavity into which you pour a filler with
a unique composition for each item. or if you want to use RFID, have a
cavity filled with a unique epoxy with a chip in there. You may also
look at how companies like CISCO do this

I had thought of a drilled tapped cavity, with a screw in brass plug. Epoxy
would work. Do you think that a reader would be able to pick it up? One
could drill the hole close to an edge so that the metal thickness would not
be a lot.

With a drilled, tapped hole, the chip COULD be removed, but it may have to
be removed for identification anyway.

With an epoxy application, it would HAVE to be read in the cavity. Do you
know if the reader has to be on any particular axis to read it? If not, it
could be read through the epoxy at the end of the hole.

Either way, the thing could be defeated, but in those cases, ownership would
revert back to the manufacturer, and authentication of company policy could
be presented to any LEO in case of dispute.

Steve

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 01:13:30 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

Steve B wrote:
"Ignoramus31455" wrote

What are you trying to accomplish, prove ownership, or have an
automatic inventory system?

i

Identify ownership. During the 70's Hughes Tool Company (Howard Hughes
oil drill bits) could not be purchased. They were leased. There was
NO doubt EVER about ownership. Hughes owned it, and they never sold
it, only leased it. A bit had to be accompanied with proper lease
papers, or it was considered stolen property, and recoverable by any
Hughes agent, LEO, or just a savvy oilfield worker who could take it to
Hughes and get a bounty. NOBODY EVER owned one. There was no question.

I am investigating this for my equipment. Of course, I would have to
have an enforcer and collector, but I think it would be worth it. I
just don't really think in my heart of hearts that a chip idea would
work.

Steve



The chips would work BUT if the product is metal you probably won't be
able to detect it due to the rf shielding. Same problem with most of the
remote ID methods.

You could try something with UV paint or IR reflective paints.

Well, Ed Huntress has mentioned that Hertel has done the "chip in a
channel" thing with success.

Presumably this would work with a low-frequency RFID chip. It might
reduce the range from yards down to inches -- but hey, if it works, it
works.

Some unique epoxy that's hard to counterfeit and easy to analyze would be
nice -- embed little plastic logos in it or something?

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

With a Plasmacam, it could be cut into the main metal part. I don't know if
the plasma could be reduced in force to make a type of etching rather than a
cut, but it COULD be cut into the metal in thin lines that would not take a
lot of strength away from it, or on a dedicated plate.

Steve

Steve B wrote:
id wrote

What are you trying to accomplish, prove ownership, or have an
automatic inventory system?

i

Identify ownership. During the 70's Hughes Tool Company (Howard Hughes oil
drill bits) could not be purchased. They were leased. There was NO doubt
EVER about ownership. Hughes owned it, and they never sold it, only leased
it. A bit had to be accompanied with proper lease papers, or it was
considered stolen property, and recoverable by any Hughes agent, LEO, or
just a savvy oilfield worker who could take it to Hughes and get a bounty.
NOBODY EVER owned one. There was no question.

I am investigating this for my equipment. Of course, I would have to have
an enforcer and collector, but I think it would be worth it. I just don't
really think in my heart of hearts that a chip idea would work.

A trademark stamp and serial number would be
enough to protect you from casual fraud. How
about that, along with a proof stamp, similar
to what's on a barrel, in a non-obvious place?

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:26:51 -0700, Steve B wrote:
"Bill" wrote
But, what you can do is to have a cavity into which you pour a filler
with a unique composition for each item. or if you want to use RFID,
have a cavity filled with a unique epoxy with a chip in there. You
may also look at how companies like CISCO do this

I had thought of a drilled tapped cavity, with a screw in brass plug.
Epoxy would work. Do you think that a reader would be able to pick it
up? One could drill the hole close to an edge so that the metal
thickness would not be a lot.
....

With RFID operating frequencies in the hundreds of MHz to low GHz
(see table in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rfid#Operation, a few
screens down) metal thickness would need to be sub-millimeter. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect#Examples and note that
skin depth is about 0.1 mm in aluminum or copper at 500 MHz. Less
than 2% of the signal would get through 0.5 mm of Al or Cu or through
0.1 mm of steel.

To make a screw-in plug work, you probably would have to insulate it
from the machine body and use the plug as part of the RFID's antenna.

I think electrochemical etching is the way to go; it's cheap enough
and fast enough that you probably could put your identification on a
machine quite a few times for the amortized cost of each RFID.
See eg http://www.ecemmi.com/. Also consider laser-etched id,
eg http://www.twdtradewinds.com/psid/laser_etched_id.php

--
jiw

On Apr 14, 5:32*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
Supposing a guy wanted to put a hidden identifier in a product. *Would it be
possible to put something such as a chip they use on a dog or cat in there?
It would have to hold up to some VERY substantial use, temperatures,
vibration, etc. *I would imagine those used on cats and dogs are a
synthetic, and those might not last. *Or maybe just a nameplate may have to
suffice, as a lot of the parts would be able to be disassembled. *Or a
stamped SN.

Steve

The critter chips have a range on the order of a foot or less. I
mention this if you've got visions of being able to fire up some
electronics and locate your stolen property from miles away on a radar-
type screen, ala Hollywood. They are also radio-based, which means
that they can't be hidden inside anything metal. The radio waves have
to be able to reach the chip in order to power it up and send a signal
out. Search on "RFID". The chip will last as long as the critter.

The current popular labeling method for parts is to use a 2D square
digital ID code burned into surfaces with lasers, There are table/
phone apps that can read them. A very cheap method, as labeling
technologies go. Gun serials used to be stamped, now new guns have
mostly laser-burned ones along with the 2D code.

Stan

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:32:01 -0700, Steve B wrote:

Supposing a guy wanted to put a hidden identifier in a product.

How well hidden? We are marking our aluminum sample holders with laser-
burned QR 2D barcodes (check google if you don't know what I'm talking
about). They can be quite compact: a 5mm x 5mm symbol can fit a dozen or
so characters.

On 4/14/2012 7:32 PM, Steve B wrote:
Supposing a guy wanted to put a hidden identifier in a product. Would it be
possible to put something such as a chip they use on a dog or cat in there?
It would have to hold up to some VERY substantial use, temperatures,
vibration, etc. I would imagine those used on cats and dogs are a
synthetic, and those might not last. Or maybe just a nameplate may have to
suffice, as a lot of the parts would be able to be disassembled. Or a
stamped SN.

Steve



I have metal stamps that put tiny marks on my products that are also
made by other companies. The marks code the date and the operator and
are built into the machine so it's automatic. we have had lawsuits
against us that turned out to be a competitor's product and we proved it
wasn't ours.

Sounds like that identifier paid for itself,
several times over?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Tom Gardner" mars@tacks wrote in message news:RP2dnXitW-

I have metal stamps that put tiny marks on my
products that are also made by other companies.
The marks code the date and the operator and
are built into the machine so it's automatic. we
have had lawsuits against us that turned out to
be a competitor's product and we proved it
wasn't ours.

On 5/11/2012 10:38 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Sounds like that identifier paid for itself,
several times over?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Tom Gardner"mars@tacks wrote in message news:RP2dnXitW-

I have metal stamps that put tiny marks on my
products that are also made by other companies.
The marks code the date and the operator and
are built into the machine so it's automatic. we
have had lawsuits against us that turned out to
be a competitor's product and we proved it
wasn't ours.



We did it mostly to track any problems back to the operator to see if
there were any quality issues that could be cured by more training.

Back when Kodak had employees. On the line I worked, we had to use a white
"grease crayon" to number. So if something was wrong, they could go back to
the person who made the error. The day shift person made a lot of mistakes,
and they brought them back to me. I made flat top 3, and she made round top
3.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Tom Gardner" mars@tacks wrote in message
...

We did it mostly to track any problems back to the operator to see if
there were any quality issues that could be cured by more training.