I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

The only welder I have is an oxy-acetylene torch. Can I weld the tanks
using 1/8" 6061?

(What I mean is,,,, I can WELD 1/8" aluminum, but I know that in thinner
sheets the 6061 tend to crack) The tanks are about 20 x 3 x 4 inches.

I will try to get 5052 or something softer if they have it, but may be
stuck with the usual.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600, DougC
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

The only welder I have is an oxy-acetylene torch. Can I weld the tanks
using 1/8" 6061?

(What I mean is,,,, I can WELD 1/8" aluminum, but I know that in thinner
sheets the 6061 tend to crack) The tanks are about 20 x 3 x 4 inches.

I will try to get 5052 or something softer if they have it, but may be
stuck with the usual.

'Can't help you with the welding itself, but 3003 is even easier to
work with than 5052. It's not quite as strong but it forms better and
it's probably the easiest aluminum *alloy* to weld. It's used for car
bodies, mailboxes, deep-drawn things, and so on.

--
Ed Huntress

DougC wrote:
I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

The only welder I have is an oxy-acetylene torch. Can I weld the tanks
using 1/8" 6061?

(What I mean is,,,, I can WELD 1/8" aluminum, but I know that in thinner
sheets the 6061 tend to crack) The tanks are about 20 x 3 x 4 inches.

I will try to get 5052 or something softer if they have it, but may be
stuck with the usual.

I can't get my head around the part you're trying to make, so this may
be off topic.

How are you welding aluminum with an oxy-acetylene torch?

There's a rod called Welco 52. Also sold at much higher price as
"miracle rod" at RV shows and the like.
It's more like soldering than welding. I've had excellent luck
fixing motorcycle parts with it.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 09:39:18 -0800, mike wrote:

DougC wrote:
I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

The only welder I have is an oxy-acetylene torch. Can I weld the tanks
using 1/8" 6061?

(What I mean is,,,, I can WELD 1/8" aluminum, but I know that in thinner
sheets the 6061 tend to crack) The tanks are about 20 x 3 x 4 inches.

I will try to get 5052 or something softer if they have it, but may be
stuck with the usual.

I can't get my head around the part you're trying to make, so this may
be off topic.

How are you welding aluminum with an oxy-acetylene torch?

There's a rod called Welco 52. Also sold at much higher price as
"miracle rod" at RV shows and the like.
It's more like soldering than welding. I've had excellent luck
fixing motorcycle parts with it.

FWIW, Welco 52 technically is a solder (the conventional dividing line
is 800 deg. F; Welco 52 melts at around 750, IIRC). It's a zinc alloy
that wets aluminum very nicely and that can solve a lot of difficult
joining problems. Anybody can learn to use it in minutes.

You just have to watch out for strength and corrosion issues. It's not
as strong as brazing or welding.

Regarding O/A welding of alumnimum, it's tricky. I've tried it but not
enough to be any good at it. There's no red color of the metal to
guide you. It just goes "shlump" all of a sudden. But it's a neat
skill to learn. A lot of airplanes were built from O/A-welded
aluminum.

And if you do more than a little bit of it, watch out for the
radiation given off by aluminum O/A flux when you apply the torch. It
will play hell with your eyes. There are special goggles made just for
this purpose.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600, DougC
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

The only welder I have is an oxy-acetylene torch. Can I weld the tanks
using 1/8" 6061?

(What I mean is,,,, I can WELD 1/8" aluminum, but I know that in thinner
sheets the 6061 tend to crack) The tanks are about 20 x 3 x 4 inches.

I will try to get 5052 or something softer if they have it, but may be
stuck with the usual.


Weldability of 6061 is very good with TIG. I've never had problems
with cracking with either 5356 or 4043 filler. I can't say whether
oxy-acetylene introduces any problems welding 6061 not present with
TIG.

5052 is generally more corrosion resistant.

--
Ned Simmons

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600, DougC
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

The only welder I have is an oxy-acetylene torch. Can I weld the tanks
using 1/8" 6061?

(What I mean is,,,, I can WELD 1/8" aluminum, but I know that in thinner
sheets the 6061 tend to crack) The tanks are about 20 x 3 x 4 inches.

I will try to get 5052 or something softer if they have it, but may be
stuck with the usual.
Greetings Doug,
6061-T6 tends to crack because it is harder. If you anneal it first it
will bend without cracking. After annealing (and welding it will
anneal it in the HAZ) 6061 will age harden to about the T4 condition
in about a month. So maybe it will start to crack down the road. I
would try to get the 5000 series sheet. Of interest to you maybe is
the aluminum solder sold at hardware stores and the like. I tried some
of the stuff recently and was amazed at how strong it was and how well
it stuck. I don't know if coolant would affect the joint though.
Eric

On 1/14/2012 10:55 AM, DougC wrote:
I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

The only welder I have is an oxy-acetylene torch. Can I weld the tanks
using 1/8" 6061?

(What I mean is,,,, I can WELD 1/8" aluminum, but I know that in thinner
sheets the 6061 tend to crack) The tanks are about 20 x 3 x 4 inches.

I will try to get 5052 or something softer if they have it, but may be
stuck with the usual.
Doug, the plastic tanks on radiators have always worried me, though they
seem to work for most applications. I admire/envy your intention to
make your own, but just before making your own tanks, you might ask an
independent radiator repairman if he can get one with metal tanks or
perhaps buy metal tanks for what you have.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600, DougC
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

The only welder I have is an oxy-acetylene torch. Can I weld the tanks
using 1/8" 6061?

(What I mean is,,,, I can WELD 1/8" aluminum, but I know that in thinner
sheets the 6061 tend to crack) The tanks are about 20 x 3 x 4 inches.

I will try to get 5052 or something softer if they have it, but may be
stuck with the usual.


Hey Doug,

5052H32 is recommended for fuel tanks. Quite bendable and weldable.
Bet it would work for radiators too.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/5052H_alsheet.php

Take care.
Brian Lawson.

I agree that looking around for a new replacement is a better option. The
last new radiator I bought to replace a Mopar plastic-tanked one, was all
brass, although it was made in Asia, maybe Indonesia.
The cost was surprisingly affordable, about $110 IIRC, bought from a local
independent autoparts/bodyshop supplier.

With the varied sheet stock, welding filler and/or using aluminum repair
rod, you may encounter unusual corrosion issues as previously suggested..
therefore, a waste of time.
Metals being corrosion resistant to hot coolant and the various other
elements in the solution may be an issue worth avoiding.

--
WB
..........


"DanG" wrote in message
...
On 1/14/2012 10:55 AM, DougC wrote:
I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

The only welder I have is an oxy-acetylene torch. Can I weld the tanks
using 1/8" 6061?

(What I mean is,,,, I can WELD 1/8" aluminum, but I know that in thinner
sheets the 6061 tend to crack) The tanks are about 20 x 3 x 4 inches.

I will try to get 5052 or something softer if they have it, but may be
stuck with the usual.
Doug, the plastic tanks on radiators have always worried me, though they
seem to work for most applications. I admire/envy your intention to make
your own, but just before making your own tanks, you might ask an
independent radiator repairman if he can get one with metal tanks or
perhaps buy metal tanks for what you have.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G

On 1/14/2012 11:53 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Regarding O/A welding of alumnimum, it's tricky. I've tried it but not
enough to be any good at it. There's no red color of the metal to
guide you. It just goes "shlump" all of a sudden. But it's a neat
skill to learn. A lot of airplanes were built from O/A-welded
aluminum.



Ed, I don't often feel confident enough to call you on metalworking, but
this one is a cinch.

I have NEVER seen a welded aluminum airframe.

Lots of OA welded 4130 tube, but never aluminum.



Richard

On 1/14/2012 6:54 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I agree that looking around for a new replacement is a better option.
The last new radiator I bought to replace a Mopar plastic-tanked one,
was all brass, although it was made in Asia, maybe Indonesia.
The cost was surprisingly affordable, about $110 IIRC, bought from a
local independent autoparts/bodyshop supplier.

Vehicle = 1996 Ford Explorer 4.0
There are no metal ones for mine that I could find, I looked online for
a few days. At this point I'd pay $300 for an all-brass one that was a
drop-in.


With the varied sheet stock, welding filler and/or using aluminum repair
rod, you may encounter unusual corrosion issues as previously
suggested.. therefore, a waste of time.
Metals being corrosion resistant to hot coolant and the various other
elements in the solution may be an issue worth avoiding.


The tanks I can weld with aluminum filler rod.

The (aluminum) cores are dip-brazed together already, so I doubt that
corrosion is an issue with that.

I've been through four of these in about eight years, all different
brands, and they all failed the same way. The broad sides of the bigger
tank bulge out a bit, and then the seal leaks where the bulges are, and
there's no way to fix it. And it always leaks worst in the extreme cold:
15F~10F. Vehicle overheats & shuts down,,, cylinder heads warp....

So this is why I say, no more plastic. I want metal only. THICK metal.

One article online describes them building aluminum radiator tanks using
..080" aluminum and bending the sheet to avoid having to weld the two
longer seams. **** that, I will use .125" and weld all the seams. It
ain't that hard.

......

I originally thought of cutting off the crimp tabs, and then making
screw-clamps that would go all the way around both sides of the core to
hold the plastic tanks on better. But after seeing how the leaks are
happening, I don't think this is worth trying. I would bet that the edge
of the plastic tanks would just break off if they were held harder to
the core seal. You'd have to keep those broad sides from bulging out
somehow, and the only ways I can see to maybe do that are more difficult
than just welding up some aluminum tanks.

I haven't decided if the aluminum tanks will clamp-on or if I will just
braze them on. I kinda like the idea of a replaceable core, but don't
know how standardized they are. Judging from the one I've cut apart and
the one still in the vehicle, the cores appear to be pretty close to
identical.

"Richard" wrote in message
...
On 1/14/2012 11:53 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Regarding O/A welding of alumnimum, it's tricky. I've tried it but not
enough to be any good at it. There's no red color of the metal to
guide you. It just goes "shlump" all of a sudden. But it's a neat
skill to learn. A lot of airplanes were built from O/A-welded
aluminum.



Ed, I don't often feel confident enough to call you on metalworking, but
this one is a cinch.

I have NEVER seen a welded aluminum airframe.

Lots of OA welded 4130 tube, but never aluminum.
Richard

Construction of the Space Shuttle:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/...sts_coord.html

"The three-level crew compartment is constructed of 2219 aluminum alloy
plate with integral stiffening stringers and internal framing welded
together to create a pressure-tight vessel."

Much of the rest of the forward fuselage is riveted 2024 frames, stringers
and skin.

jsw

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600, DougC
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

Not what you're asking about, but do you guys think it would work to
get a plastic replacement and wrap it with fibreglass/ epoxy body
material to reinforce it before putting it into service?

RWL

GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600, DougC
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

Not what you're asking about, but do you guys think it would work to
get a plastic replacement and wrap it with fibreglass/ epoxy body
material to reinforce it before putting it into service?

RWL

Internal stays like a steam boiler?

jsw

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:43:36 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/14/2012 11:53 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Regarding O/A welding of alumnimum, it's tricky. I've tried it but not
enough to be any good at it. There's no red color of the metal to
guide you. It just goes "shlump" all of a sudden. But it's a neat
skill to learn. A lot of airplanes were built from O/A-welded
aluminum.



Ed, I don't often feel confident enough to call you on metalworking, but
this one is a cinch.

I have NEVER seen a welded aluminum airframe.

The skin, brackets, and tanks, Richard. Not the frames. But those
pieces were still life-critical jobs.

When O/A was used in commercial production of aircraft, the frames
were not aluminum to begin with.

O/A was used until the 1940s for many aluminum aircraft-welding jobs:

http://metalshapers.org/tips/white/a...ding/index.htm

http://tinyurl.com/7bjbxso

I couldn't find any references but I remember from my _AM_ days that
Northrup pioneered all-welded aircraft. Frustrated with how slow O/A
was, they developed early versions of TIG.

But they made aircraft with O/A prior to that, with few rivets
anywhere.

--
Ed Huntress




Lots of OA welded 4130 tube, but never aluminum.



Richard

On 01/14/2012 07:17 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:43:36 -0600,
wrote:

.. A lot of airplanes were built from O/A-welded
aluminum.

Ed, I don't often feel confident enough to call you on metalworking, but
this one is a cinch.

I have NEVER seen a welded aluminum airframe.

The skin, brackets, and tanks, Richard. Not the frames. But those
pieces were still life-critical jobs.

A few bits and pieces.

When O/A was used in commercial production of aircraft, the frames
were not aluminum to begin with.

So not welded aluminum.

O/A was used until the 1940s for many aluminum aircraft-welding jobs:

http://metalshapers.org/tips/white/a...ding/index.htm

http://tinyurl.com/7bjbxso

Obscure bits and pieces.

I couldn't find any references but I remember from my _AM_ days that
Northrup pioneered all-welded aircraft. Frustrated with how slow O/A
was, they developed early versions of TIG.

But they made aircraft with O/A prior to that, with few rivets
anywhere.

I have never seen a welded aluminum airframe either. Some pieces, here
and there, but nothing approaching "A lot of airplanes were built from
O/A-welded aluminum." Northrop's N-1M and N-9M tailless flying wing
prototypes were wood.

- Cool Fact -
Northrop's XP-79 "Flying Ram" was a twin turbojet, flying wing fighter
built of welded magnesium plate, designed to slice through enemy bombers.

On 1/14/2012 8:38 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 1/14/2012 11:53 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Regarding O/A welding of alumnimum, it's tricky. I've tried it but not
enough to be any good at it. There's no red color of the metal to
guide you. It just goes "shlump" all of a sudden. But it's a neat
skill to learn. A lot of airplanes were built from O/A-welded
aluminum.



Ed, I don't often feel confident enough to call you on metalworking, but
this one is a cinch.

I have NEVER seen a welded aluminum airframe.

Lots of OA welded 4130 tube, but never aluminum.
Richard

Construction of the Space Shuttle:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/...sts_coord.html

"The three-level crew compartment is constructed of 2219 aluminum alloy
plate with integral stiffening stringers and internal framing welded
together to create a pressure-tight vessel."

Much of the rest of the forward fuselage is riveted 2024 frames, stringers
and skin.

jsw



Since the shuttle is technically an aircraft during re-entry- then I
guess you win, Jim.

But other than that? I'll stand by my statement.

I've seen the video of the new spacecraft being stir-welded.
But that thing is a ballistic object - not an aircraft.

On 1/14/2012 8:12 PM, DougC wrote:

The tanks I can weld with aluminum filler rod.

The (aluminum) cores are dip-brazed together already, so I doubt that
corrosion is an issue with that.

I've been through four of these in about eight years, all different
brands, and they all failed the same way. The broad sides of the bigger
tank bulge out a bit, and then the seal leaks where the bulges are, and
there's no way to fix it. And it always leaks worst in the extreme cold:
15F~10F. Vehicle overheats & shuts down,,, cylinder heads warp....

So this is why I say, no more plastic. I want metal only. THICK metal.

One article online describes them building aluminum radiator tanks using
.080" aluminum and bending the sheet to avoid having to weld the two
longer seams. **** that, I will use .125" and weld all the seams. It
ain't that hard.

.....

I originally thought of cutting off the crimp tabs, and then making
screw-clamps that would go all the way around both sides of the core to
hold the plastic tanks on better. But after seeing how the leaks are
happening, I don't think this is worth trying. I would bet that the edge
of the plastic tanks would just break off if they were held harder to
the core seal. You'd have to keep those broad sides from bulging out
somehow, and the only ways I can see to maybe do that are more difficult
than just welding up some aluminum tanks.

I haven't decided if the aluminum tanks will clamp-on or if I will just
braze them on. I kinda like the idea of a replaceable core, but don't
know how standardized they are. Judging from the one I've cut apart and
the one still in the vehicle, the cores appear to be pretty close to
identical.

So what's the problem with plastic radiators?

Mine is 11-12 years old - 150+K miles.
Only been replaced twice...

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:20:46 -0800, beryl wrote:

On 01/14/2012 07:17 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:43:36 -0600,
wrote:

.. A lot of airplanes were built from O/A-welded
aluminum.

Ed, I don't often feel confident enough to call you on metalworking, but
this one is a cinch.

I have NEVER seen a welded aluminum airframe.

The skin, brackets, and tanks, Richard. Not the frames. But those
pieces were still life-critical jobs.

A few bits and pieces.

Oh, please. You guys are being real hard-noses here. If I had said
"built with" welded aluminum instead of "built from" welded aluminum,
would you have been happier? I'll have to be more careful with my
prepositions. d8-)

It was more than "a few bits and pieces." The entire business of gas
welding aluminum grew up with the aircraft instustry, including both
the use of O/A and oxy-hydrogen. The latter was almost exclusively
used for aircraft construction.


When O/A was used in commercial production of aircraft, the frames
were not aluminum to begin with.

So not welded aluminum.

Hey, I never said they were. See above. But O/A and oxy-hyrdogen were
the only methods used to weld thin aluminum before 1942.


O/A was used until the 1940s for many aluminum aircraft-welding jobs:

http://metalshapers.org/tips/white/a...ding/index.htm

http://tinyurl.com/7bjbxso

Obscure bits and pieces.

Welded fuel tanks in WWII planes; some srtuctural parts; complex
aluminum shapes in skin parts, as in the bomber photo on the Tinman's
site. And other "bits and pieces."


I couldn't find any references but I remember from my _AM_ days that
Northrup pioneered all-welded aircraft. Frustrated with how slow O/A
was, they developed early versions of TIG.

But they made aircraft with O/A prior to that, with few rivets
anywhere.

I have never seen a welded aluminum airframe either. Some pieces, here
and there, but nothing approaching "A lot of airplanes were built from
O/A-welded aluminum." Northrop's N-1M and N-9M tailless flying wing
prototypes were wood.

Northrop's flying wings were designed from the start to be made of
welded *magnesium*. But there was no practical way to weld it at the
beginning of the war, so the first prototypes were made of molded
plywood.

John Northrup had conducted experiments with aluminum monocoque
construction in the 1930s. At the beginning of the war, he (and some
others) anticipated a shortage of aluminum and so designed his flying
wings to be constructed from magnesium. Mag can be welded with O/A but
it's very difficult and tricky to get good strength. So his company
developed an early version of TIG. After 1942, that's how he made his
flying wings.


- Cool Fact -
Northrop's XP-79 "Flying Ram" was a twin turbojet, flying wing fighter
built of welded magnesium plate, designed to slice through enemy bombers.

A bad idea that was soon dropped, as it turned out. The Germans had
the same idea and also dropped it quickly.

--
Ed Huntress

On 1/14/2012 11:48 PM, Richard wrote:

So what's the problem with plastic radiators?

Mine is 11-12 years old - 150+K miles.
Only been replaced twice...



The problem is that none of the ones currently available for this
vehicle is worth paying for.

The original-factory ones may have been built better, but all the ones
available ~7 years after are pretty much identical, and all of them seem
to be junk. Including the ones the dealers now sell, cause I tried one
of them already.

On 1/14/2012 8:42 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600,
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

Not what you're asking about, but do you guys think it would work to
get a plastic replacement and wrap it with fibreglass/ epoxy body
material to reinforce it before putting it into service?

RWL

I think you'd have to use solvent on it and add more of the same kind of
the original plastic... and I dunno what that is.


Internal stays like a steam boiler?

jsw



Now this is an interesting idea.... but I think the inside walls taper
slightly, so I don't see it being workable. If the walls were
perpendicular to each other, I'd consider this a lot more.

It would still involve cutting the crimped-together radiator apart and
clamping it back together however... and at some point, one begins to
see that it would be simpler overall to just weld some aluminum tanks.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:43:36 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/14/2012 11:53 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Regarding O/A welding of alumnimum, it's tricky. I've tried it but not
enough to be any good at it. There's no red color of the metal to
guide you. It just goes "shlump" all of a sudden. But it's a neat
skill to learn. A lot of airplanes were built from O/A-welded
aluminum.



Ed, I don't often feel confident enough to call you on metalworking, but
this one is a cinch.

I have NEVER seen a welded aluminum airframe.

Lots of OA welded 4130 tube, but never aluminum.



Richard


Hey Richard,

No expert here on use in aircraft, but we used the welded 5052 I
suggested for fuel tanks in lieu of wet wings. Although the welding
and choice of material worked, it was NOT the best thought. We should
have stuck with the design.

Brian Lawson

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:42:16 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600, DougC
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

Not what you're asking about, but do you guys think it would work to
get a plastic replacement and wrap it with fibreglass/ epoxy body
material to reinforce it before putting it into service?

RWL

Internal stays like a steam boiler?

My questions:

"Why are the radiators flexing and distorting?

"Shouldn't you be looking for ways to better support the rad?"

--
Make awkward sexual advances, not war.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 07:11:32 -0600, DougC
wrote:

On 1/14/2012 11:48 PM, Richard wrote:

So what's the problem with plastic radiators?

Mine is 11-12 years old - 150+K miles.
Only been replaced twice...



The problem is that none of the ones currently available for this
vehicle is worth paying for.

The original-factory ones may have been built better, but all the ones
available ~7 years after are pretty much identical, and all of them seem
to be junk. Including the ones the dealers now sell, cause I tried one
of them already.
Greetings Doug,
The plastic/aluminum radiators I've seen all had pretty thin aluminum
crimped around the plastic tank. Welding 1/8 thick aluminum to the
much thinner tank material might be a problem. I am so impressed with
the zinc based aluminum solders that I would try soldering instead of
welding if all I had was to weld with was an O/A torch. The initial
wetting of the metal is a little fussy but it's easy to get the hang
of it and it goes pretty fast then. Once you start to solder to the
wetted surfaces the process is fast and easy. If you can build up
regular plumbing solder on copper pipe then you have enough skill to
use the aluminum solder.
Eric

On 1/15/2012 8:30 AM, Brian Lawson wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:43:36 -0600,
wrote:

On 1/14/2012 11:53 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Regarding O/A welding of alumnimum, it's tricky. I've tried it but not
enough to be any good at it. There's no red color of the metal to
guide you. It just goes "shlump" all of a sudden. But it's a neat
skill to learn. A lot of airplanes were built from O/A-welded
aluminum.



Ed, I don't often feel confident enough to call you on metalworking, but
this one is a cinch.

I have NEVER seen a welded aluminum airframe.

Lots of OA welded 4130 tube, but never aluminum.



Richard


Hey Richard,

No expert here on use in aircraft, but we used the welded 5052 I
suggested for fuel tanks in lieu of wet wings. Although the welding
and choice of material worked, it was NOT the best thought. We should
have stuck with the design.

Brian Lawson

In my last airplane, I used a welded 5052-H32 tank.
I actually did all of it myself except for the final welding.
Sonny did that - then swore he'd never do another one.

It was a lot of fun. There are pictures of that going together
in the photo CD download.

And, to cut Ed a tiny amount of slack, there are a lot of welded
fittings used in aircraft construction; some of them may be aluminum.

On 1/15/2012 9:43 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:42:16 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600,
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

Not what you're asking about, but do you guys think it would work to
get a plastic replacement and wrap it with fibreglass/ epoxy body
material to reinforce it before putting it into service?

RWL

Internal stays like a steam boiler?

My questions:

"Why are the radiators flexing and distorting?

"Shouldn't you be looking for ways to better support the rad?"

--
Make awkward sexual advances, not war.

The problem with the original tanks (on THIS radiator) is that one tank
is larger than the other, because it has the transmission cooler inside.
The broad sides of that larger plastic tank bulge outward from pressure,
and that lifts the edge of the tank up enough to allow the larger
radiator to leak.

Like I said before--you can come up with all kinds of oddball things to
try, but in the end the fastest/easiest solution is to just make
aluminum tanks that are thick enough and strong enough not to have the
bulging problem in the first place.

--------

I'm finding pages online (from individuals and radiator shops) that say
you can get new tanks put onto the core of a plastic-tank radiator. So
far I have not found one place online to order such tanks though; when I
search for "plastic radiator tanks" all I seem to get is the Chinese
manufacturer/Alibaba sites.

And anyway, I don't see how the new plastic one could be any better than
the old plastic one.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:35:31 -0600, DougC
wrote:

On 1/15/2012 9:43 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:42:16 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600,
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

Not what you're asking about, but do you guys think it would work to
get a plastic replacement and wrap it with fibreglass/ epoxy body
material to reinforce it before putting it into service?

RWL

Internal stays like a steam boiler?

My questions:

"Why are the radiators flexing and distorting?

"Shouldn't you be looking for ways to better support the rad?"


The problem with the original tanks (on THIS radiator) is that one tank
is larger than the other, because it has the transmission cooler inside.
The broad sides of that larger plastic tank bulge outward from pressure,
and that lifts the edge of the tank up enough to allow the larger
radiator to leak.

Like I said before--you can come up with all kinds of oddball things to
try, but in the end the fastest/easiest solution is to just make
aluminum tanks that are thick enough and strong enough not to have the
bulging problem in the first place.

It has been quite some time since I've seen an aluminum/ABS radiator,
which is what I'm assuming this is. The old ones had little
fingerlike tabs holding the plastic tank onto the core flange with an
o-ring to seal. If the plstic is bulging out between the fingers,
maybe soldering a rod onto the fingers would prevent that. Or
soldering additional fingers onto the core flange lip to hold the
plastic intact better might work.

Or, build new tanks as you were saying.

Good luck, either way.

--
I merely took the energy it takes to pout and wrote some blues.
--Duke Ellington

DougC wrote:
On 1/15/2012 9:43 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:42:16 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:55:38 -0600,
wrote:

I am making aluminum tanks for my truck's radiator. I am planning on
using 1/8" thick sheet because the reason that none of the plastic
tanks
hold up is that they flex and distort.

Not what you're asking about, but do you guys think it would work to
get a plastic replacement and wrap it with fibreglass/ epoxy body
material to reinforce it before putting it into service?

RWL

Internal stays like a steam boiler?

My questions:

"Why are the radiators flexing and distorting?

"Shouldn't you be looking for ways to better support the rad?"

--
Make awkward sexual advances, not war.

The problem with the original tanks (on THIS radiator) is that one
tank is larger than the other, because it has the transmission cooler
inside. The broad sides of that larger plastic tank bulge outward from
pressure, and that lifts the edge of the tank up enough to allow the
larger radiator to leak.

Like I said before--you can come up with all kinds of oddball things
to try, but in the end the fastest/easiest solution is to just make
aluminum tanks that are thick enough and strong enough not to have the
bulging problem in the first place.

--------

I'm finding pages online (from individuals and radiator shops) that
say you can get new tanks put onto the core of a plastic-tank
radiator. So far I have not found one place online to order such tanks
though; when I search for "plastic radiator tanks" all I seem to get
is the Chinese manufacturer/Alibaba sites.

And anyway, I don't see how the new plastic one could be any better
than the old plastic one.
Any room around the radiator tank to add some external C shaped pieces
to stop the bulging, bit like a mini G clamp.

I used to work at a place that made radiators for racing cars and they
used Behr cores IIRC. Those were aluminium ends and core bonded
together, they did weld the tanks on carefully without effecting the
bonding but that was TIG, I don't think OA would work at too much heat
in that case.

On 01/15/2012 03:39 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Oh, please. You guys are being real hard-noses here. If I had said
"built with" welded aluminum instead of "built from" welded aluminum,
would you have been happier? I'll have to be more careful with my
prepositions. d8-)

Nah, that ain't it. It's a stretch to say that a lot of airplanes were
built "from", or "with", or "of" welded aluminum. Welds just aren't
what's holding those (still unidentified) airplanes together.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:01:21 -0800, beryl wrote:

On 01/15/2012 03:39 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Oh, please. You guys are being real hard-noses here. If I had said
"built with" welded aluminum instead of "built from" welded aluminum,
would you have been happier? I'll have to be more careful with my
prepositions. d8-)

Nah, that ain't it. It's a stretch to say that a lot of airplanes were
built "from", or "with", or "of" welded aluminum. Welds just aren't
what's holding those (still unidentified) airplanes together.

Without making a big project out of it, Kent White says there is
"much" aluminum gas welding on the P-51, the B-24, the B-25, and the
B-17.

Now, you're saying they weren't "held together" with welds. I think
you're morphing the discussion from built-with, or from, to
built-with-a-structure-of.

But suit yourself. The point was that gas welding of aluminum was an
effective way to fabricate a lot of aluminum pieces on aircraft before
TIG came along. That was in the context of O/A welding of aluminum.

From _Airplane Welding_, J.B. Johnson, 1929:

"The [gas] welding of aluminum in aircraft construction ranks second
in importance to steel. The principal application is the welding of
gasoline and oil tanks. It is the preferred method of construction in
the case of military aircraft and is being used successfully in
commercial airplanes where the maximum pay load is the goal."

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u...uc1. b4118131

He says exactly the same thing in another book, published in 1941.

Most of the aircraft-manufacturing training manuals of the period
talked about the importance of learning to gas-weld aluminum. Welded
aluminum parts were all over the place on early aircraft.

But be a hard case if you wish. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On 1/15/2012 1:35 PM, DougC wrote:


I'm finding pages online (from individuals and radiator shops) that say
you can get new tanks put onto the core of a plastic-tank radiator....


Okay, two more questions: I gather that if places can sell you
replacement tanks, then the radiator cores themselves must be basically
identical even from different companies? I would think they would have
to be to fit in the same place on the vehicle, and they LOOK nearly
identical in photos, but I never had to get this particular about
radiator details before.


Also can I use rubber cord and rubber cement to make a gasket? I
couldn't find any info particular to the radiator tank gaskets, but
radiator hoses are usually reinforced NBR. McMaster-Carr sells the NBR
cord by the foot and I would assume they would have the right kind of
glue for it as well. The cord would cost me $12,,, + glue? Buying a 1/4"
sheet big enough to cut two gaskets from would cost $40, and most of the
rubber wouldn't be used.

On Jan 15, 2:35*pm, DougC wrote:

And anyway, I don't see how the new plastic one could be any better than
the old plastic one.

Maybe you won't like this idea, or you've already ruled it out - what
about just using
a radiator without the Trans-cooler inside and mount an air-cooled
cooler, maybe an old forklift radiator.

On 1/16/2012 8:06 PM, Rick wrote:


There was a technical service bulletin released (96-12-17) for radiator
tank leaks at cold temperature, The replacement radiator (F67Z-8005-BA)
had a revised seal.

I've already tried one from the dealer, and it had the same problem.

Several of the Ford engines from about 1994 to 2000 had the dual issues
of leaking radiators, knocking heaters and of temperature gauges that
would always slowly bob up and down. Ford says the cause of this is
steam forming inside the engine, but there is no consensus on what the
solution is. Even people who had all work done at dealers still couldn't
get the problem fixed.

Most people you find posting on the internet can't try using the bypass
kit however, since Ford hasn't offered it since sometime in 1998 or
1999. The Ford TSB papers I have copies of say that it was supposed to
be available again in mid-1999,,,,,,,, and these papers I got in late
2009, and the bypass kit still isn't available, nor has it ever been
since,,, whenever it became unavailable (?).

One recent forum post asking about it-
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=179524

------

I did notice while taking the new radiator tanks off that the broad
walls of the bigger tank were warped to begin with.

Also, assuming that the cooland flow goes
radiator--waterpump--engine,,, then the possible-steam-bubbles are
coming out of the engine and going into the radiator tank that keeps
leaking.
Which could have something to do with it also.
Or maybe not.

On Jan 16, 8:21*pm, DougC wrote:


That runs into even more issues.
The trans cooler is in the left-hand-side tank, and there is already a
separate oil cooler mounted on the front left-hand side of the
radiator... so the external trans cooler would have to be mounted &
plumbed all the way over to the right side.

I've not seen any gas engines with oil coolers in the radiator before,
didn't realize they did that...

And anyway, today I went and got the metal for reproducing the
original-size aluminum tanks.

Looking forward to hearing the details on this, reckon it'll be awhile
before you have to mess with it again, once you get it put right.

I have found another reference (a video on youtube) that shows a custom
shop in NZ making an aluminum radiator, and also using "2mm-thick 6061".
2mm being something like .078xx" [inches].

I miss my old job, had dsl there - now I'm once again banished to the
back-street environs of dialup internet...

Best wishes,
Mike

On Jan 17, 5:45*am, DougC wrote:


------

I did notice while taking the new radiator tanks off that the broad
walls of the bigger tank were warped to begin with.

Also, assuming that the cooland flow goes
radiator--waterpump--engine,,, then the possible-steam-bubbles are
coming out of the engine and going into the radiator tank that keeps
leaking.
Which could have something to do with it also.
Or maybe not.

Maybe you could try putting the nose of the car way up when your
refilling the coolant, give you a better chance to chase any air
pockets in the block to the nearest possible outlet ( I've got a VW
Vanagon that's notoriously hard to get the cooling system full, and
this seems to help).

"DougC" wrote in message
...
On 1/16/2012 8:06 PM, Rick wrote:


There was a technical service bulletin released (96-12-17) for radiator
tank leaks at cold temperature, The replacement radiator (F67Z-8005-BA)
had a revised seal.

I've already tried one from the dealer, and it had the same problem.

Several of the Ford engines from about 1994 to 2000 had the dual issues of
leaking radiators, knocking heaters and of temperature gauges that would
always slowly bob up and down. Ford says the cause of this is steam
forming inside the engine, but there is no consensus on what the solution
is. Even people who had all work done at dealers still couldn't get the
problem fixed.

Most people you find posting on the internet can't try using the bypass
kit however, since Ford hasn't offered it since sometime in 1998 or 1999.
The Ford TSB papers I have copies of say that it was supposed to be
available again in mid-1999,,,,,,,, and these papers I got in late 2009,
and the bypass kit still isn't available, nor has it ever been since,,,
whenever it became unavailable (?).

One recent forum post asking about it-
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=179524

------

I did notice while taking the new radiator tanks off that the broad walls
of the bigger tank were warped to begin with.

Also, assuming that the cooland flow goes radiator--waterpump--engine,,,
then the possible-steam-bubbles are coming out of the engine and going
into the radiator tank that keeps leaking.
Which could have something to do with it also.
Or maybe not.


The coolant flow is radiator outletpump inletpump
outletenginethermostatradiator inlet. The cap and trans oil cooler are
on the outlet tank, which is the low pressure side of the radiator. It
should have a 16 PSI cap

There were two bypass kits, one for the 3.0L Ranger and one for the 3.0L
Taurus. A new water pump with shrouded impeller was released. A 3mm
restrictor in the degas bottle supply line was also added on the Taurus.

There is also a TSB for a revised water pump on the 4.0L, 97-18-9, for
thumping and/or erratic temp gauge. The part number for that pump is
F7PZ-8501-AA. I believe that also had an impeller change but I can't
remember the difference offhand.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:15:01 -0800 (PST), mike
wrote:

On Jan 16, 8:21*pm, DougC wrote:


That runs into even more issues.
The trans cooler is in the left-hand-side tank, and there is already a
separate oil cooler mounted on the front left-hand side of the
radiator... so the external trans cooler would have to be mounted &
plumbed all the way over to the right side.

I've not seen any gas engines with oil coolers in the radiator before,
didn't realize they did that...

My 2001 3.0 Ford Ranger has transmission cooler on the front side of the
radiator. As do most Fords to the best of my knowledge.



And anyway, today I went and got the metal for reproducing the
original-size aluminum tanks.

Looking forward to hearing the details on this, reckon it'll be awhile
before you have to mess with it again, once you get it put right.

I have found another reference (a video on youtube) that shows a custom
shop in NZ making an aluminum radiator, and also using "2mm-thick 6061".
2mm being something like .078xx" [inches].

I miss my old job, had dsl there - now I'm once again banished to the
back-street environs of dialup internet...

Best wishes,
Mike


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:15:01 -0800 (PST), mike
wrote:

On Jan 16, 8:21*pm, DougC wrote:


That runs into even more issues.
The trans cooler is in the left-hand-side tank, and there is already a
separate oil cooler mounted on the front left-hand side of the
radiator... so the external trans cooler would have to be mounted &
plumbed all the way over to the right side.

I've not seen any gas engines with oil coolers in the radiator before,
didn't realize they did that...

Only for about 40 years now... If you've ever seen a trail of oil
curving into a driveway, it's from the auto trans lines when the rad
had been removed. If they didn't put a tube between the tranny coolant
lines, the rear pump would push tranny fluid out when the vehicle was
moved.


And anyway, today I went and got the metal for reproducing the
original-size aluminum tanks.

Looking forward to hearing the details on this, reckon it'll be awhile
before you have to mess with it again, once you get it put right.

I have found another reference (a video on youtube) that shows a custom
shop in NZ making an aluminum radiator, and also using "2mm-thick 6061".
2mm being something like .078xx" [inches].

I miss my old job, had dsl there - now I'm once again banished to the
back-street environs of dialup internet...

Condolences. Remember the old BBS curse?

Beat me, whip me, make me read my mail online.


Dialup was all I had here until I spent $1k for a Starband and DISH
system. Now I have DSL (and -no- TV) and love it.

--
I merely took the energy it takes to pout and wrote some blues.
--Duke Ellington

Gunner Asch wrote:


My 2001 3.0 Ford Ranger has transmission cooler on the front side of the
radiator. As do most Fords to the best of my knowledge.


That's where I expect to see a tranny cooler, that's where it was on
the GM automatic
cars I've owned also. I've had three diesel vehicles that had engine-
oil oil coolers
mounted *inside* the radiator but have never seen a gas powered
vehicle with such
an arrangement...but, I've also never owned anything newer than an
'85, so maybe
it's done quite regularly these days for all I know.

Mike

On Jan 17, 9:28*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Only for about 40 years now...

I wasn't very clear in saying what I meant...

*If you've ever seen a trail of oil
curving into a driveway, it's from the auto trans lines when the rad
had been removed. If they didn't put a tube between the tranny coolant
lines, the rear pump would push tranny fluid out when the vehicle was
moved.

Used to have a neighbor who'd leave a cup or so's worth of ATF
everytime they'd park in front of my house, figure that was a bad
seal...but, anyway, I was commenting on Doug's vehicle having an ATF-
oil cooler mounted *inside* the radiator.


I miss my old job, had dsl there - now I'm once again banished to the
back-street environs of dialup internet...

Condolences. *Remember the old BBS curse?

* *Beat me, whip me, make me read my mail online.

Hadn't heard that one before, but then all that 'puter and BBS stuff
was like really mysterious to me back then. I didn't get my first 56K
modem until they started showing up at the goodwill store for 2 bucks
a piece