I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

It also has 2 much smaller brown wires coming out that were just tied out of
the way to the lifting ring. I suspect those were for a tach or possible a
heat sensor.

It just has paper labels on the black wires, and they look like they were
put on by somebody who tried to figure out the motor in the past. They do
not match up with any of the three phase wiring numbers/ letters standards
I've been able to find. I want to hook it to a VFD for testing. Since the
data plate says it will operate from 6-130 HZ and lists a range of RPM from
96 to 3680 that tells me was probably intended to operate off of VFD in the
first place.

Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

On Jan 6, 6:59*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

On Jan 6, 6:37*pm, " wrote:
On Jan 6, 6:59*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:

I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. *I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.

Dan
Thanks Dan. I should have known that. My dad explained.star and
delta for.commercial applications when I was a teenager... a long time
ago. That's probably it.

wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms between
any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?

On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:45:01 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms between
any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?



It sounds like a 2 speed motor -- 2 sets of windings. 96 RPM @ 6 Hz is
a 4 pole winding; 3680 RPM @ 130 Hz is 2 poles.

--
Ned Simmons

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other
three.


Sounds like there's a good possibility it's been smoked, suggest pull the
bells off and take a look...

--if it's a tefc you'll know right off the bat due to the stink.


A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?


I wouldn't put anything between the vfd output and the motor except for the
cable that connects the two together--no switches no contactors no breakers
not even a set of fuses otherwise damage could occur.

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:rvqdnQ3H7vFIK5rSnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other
three.


Sounds like there's a good possibility it's been smoked, suggest pull the
bells off and take a look...


--if it's a tefc you'll know right off the bat due to the stink.


I am familiar with the smell of cooked. I just smells like machine.


A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.


The OPs suggestion of a 2 speed motor makes sense. Now to determine which
is which if that is the case. I could use the higher speeds more than the
lower speed.



Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny
to the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?


I wouldn't put anything between the vfd output and the motor except for
the cable that connects the two together--no switches no contactors no
breakers not even a set of fuses otherwise damage could occur.


That is kinda what I figured.

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:45:01 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how
to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to
pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between
any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?



It sounds like a 2 speed motor -- 2 sets of windings. 96 RPM @ 6 Hz is
a 4 pole winding; 3680 RPM @ 130 Hz is 2 poles.


Well, I could use the higher speed range more than the lower. Which set of
wires do I hook up? I suppose then I leave the other set dangling with caps
on the ends?



--
Ned Simmons

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:45:01 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how
to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to
pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between
any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?



It sounds like a 2 speed motor -- 2 sets of windings. 96 RPM @ 6 Hz is
a 4 pole winding; 3680 RPM @ 130 Hz is 2 poles.


My mistake. It say 3/130 hz, not 6/130.

The Data Plate Reads:

Leland Electrosystems Inc
Model 6273
Serial TX43042
FR 215
HP 5
HZ 3/130
C Temp rise Cont.
NO.71
RPM 96-3680
Class H insulation

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

It also has 2 much smaller brown wires coming out that were just tied out
of
the way to the lifting ring. I suspect those were for a tach or possible
a
heat sensor.

It just has paper labels on the black wires, and they look like they were
put on by somebody who tried to figure out the motor in the past. They do
not match up with any of the three phase wiring numbers/ letters standards
I've been able to find. I want to hook it to a VFD for testing. Since
the
data plate says it will operate from 6-130 HZ and lists a range of RPM
from
96 to 3680 that tells me was probably intended to operate off of VFD in
the
first place.

Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

My mistake. It say 3/130 hz, not 6/130.

The Data Plate Reads:

Leland Electrosystems Inc
Model 6273
Serial TX43042
FR 215
HP 5
HZ 3/130
C Temp rise Cont.
NO.71
RPM 96-3680
Class H insulation

I believe Ned is correct with the 2-speed description.

3-phase motors don't have start windings.

It may be worthwhile to determine what the 2 unused wires go to.. they may
be a normally closed thermal protection switch/sensor connections (so zero
or very low ohms reading), which would be used for cutting the power source
when the internal temp exceeds the specific rating of the switch/sensor.
Thermal protect connections for a 3-phase motor would typically be wired to
the appropriate terminals on the motor drive/VFD.

When attempting to trial run a motor with an unknown history, it's often a
good idea to plan for other results besides a perfectly normal motor.
Some precautions should always be observed, the first one being to make a
clean, secure connection (not just an old piece of speaker wire) to the
motor case and connect it to a known good earth ground of the utility
electrical system/source.

If not already, a good time to get familiar with the VFD protection settings
is before applying power to it.. that generally means having the correct
operating manual, and studying it to become familiarized with all of the
protection features, how to enable them and what parameters would be
appropriate for a motor of unknown history.

--
WB
..........


"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how
to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to
pair up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other
three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...


"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:45:01 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how
to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to
pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between
any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny
to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?



It sounds like a 2 speed motor -- 2 sets of windings. 96 RPM @ 6 Hz is
a 4 pole winding; 3680 RPM @ 130 Hz is 2 poles.


My mistake. It say 3/130 hz, not 6/130.

The Data Plate Reads:

Leland Electrosystems Inc
Model 6273
Serial TX43042
FR 215
HP 5
HZ 3/130
C Temp rise Cont.
NO.71
RPM 96-3680
Class H insulation


It looks like an inverter-rated motor...

96 dvide by 3=32

32 x 130= 4160 and if you then subtract 10% slip you get 3744 which is right
there in the ballpark....

Not sure what the other three wires are for--feedback perhaps or could be
there for a ventilating fan I suppose.

Which leaves the odd pair--could be a per/rev feedback, hall sensor or
magntic prox or for a fan or perhaps some kind thermal safety...



The odd pair of wires is probably either for a fan or for a thermister

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
I believe Ned is correct with the 2-speed description.

Perhaps, but I did provide erroneous data for his initial conclusion. The
data plate says 3/130Hz not 6/130.

3-phase motors don't have start windings.


Some of the reading on that subject is a bit confusing in reference to
synchronous motors.

It may be worthwhile to determine what the 2 unused wires go to.. they may

And if Leland was still in business or I had a manual I would find out. I'm
not ready to start disassembling the motor as yet. Their connection is not
readily apparent with the rear cover off.

be a normally closed thermal protection switch/sensor connections (so zero
or very low ohms reading), which would be used for cutting the power
source when the internal temp exceeds the specific rating of the
switch/sensor.
Thermal protect connections for a 3-phase motor would typically be wired
to the appropriate terminals on the motor drive/VFD.

When attempting to trial run a motor with an unknown history, it's often a
good idea to plan for other results besides a perfectly normal motor.

Yup, and I would like to make sure I am atleast connecting the motor
properly before making a trial run.

Some precautions should always be observed, the first one being to make a
clean, secure connection (not just an old piece of speaker wire) to the
motor case and connect it to a known good earth ground of the utility
electrical system/source.

The first thing I did was wire in an outlet (PROPERLY) and install a new
cord and plug on the disconnect I plan to connect the VFD and motor to when
ready. The entire assembly IS electrically grounded.


If not already, a good time to get familiar with the VFD protection
settings is before applying power to it.. that generally means having the
correct operating manual, and studying it to become familiarized with all
of the protection features, how to enable them and what parameters would
be appropriate for a motor of unknown history.


I do have the correct original factory manual for the VFD, and I have read
it a couple times now. Right now I an trying to make sure I don't damage
the VFD when I connect the motor.




--
WB
.........


"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how
to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to
pair up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other
three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny
to the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...


"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:45:01 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out
how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to
pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between
any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run
winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny
to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?



It sounds like a 2 speed motor -- 2 sets of windings. 96 RPM @ 6 Hz is
a 4 pole winding; 3680 RPM @ 130 Hz is 2 poles.


My mistake. It say 3/130 hz, not 6/130.

The Data Plate Reads:

Leland Electrosystems Inc
Model 6273
Serial TX43042
FR 215
HP 5
HZ 3/130
C Temp rise Cont.
NO.71
RPM 96-3680
Class H insulation


It looks like an inverter-rated motor...

96 dvide by 3=32

32 x 130= 4160 and if you then subtract 10% slip you get 3744 which is
right there in the ballpark....

Not sure what the other three wires are for--feedback perhaps or could be
there for a ventilating fan I suppose.

Which leaves the odd pair--could be a per/rev feedback, hall sensor or
magntic prox or for a fan or perhaps some kind thermal safety...



The odd pair of wires is probably either for a fan or for a thermister

So how do I decide which set to hook up? Just do it and see what speeds I
get at what frequency?

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...


"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:45:01 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out
how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to
pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either
star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between
any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run
winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny
to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?



It sounds like a 2 speed motor -- 2 sets of windings. 96 RPM @ 6 Hz is
a 4 pole winding; 3680 RPM @ 130 Hz is 2 poles.


My mistake. It say 3/130 hz, not 6/130.

The Data Plate Reads:

Leland Electrosystems Inc
Model 6273
Serial TX43042
FR 215
HP 5
HZ 3/130
C Temp rise Cont.
NO.71
RPM 96-3680
Class H insulation


It looks like an inverter-rated motor...

96 dvide by 3=32

32 x 130= 4160 and if you then subtract 10% slip you get 3744 which is
right there in the ballpark....

Not sure what the other three wires are for--feedback perhaps or could be
there for a ventilating fan I suppose.

Which leaves the odd pair--could be a per/rev feedback, hall sensor or
magntic prox or for a fan or perhaps some kind thermal safety...



The odd pair of wires is probably either for a fan or for a thermister

So how do I decide which set to hook up? Just do it and see what speeds I
get at what frequency?


First you'd need to figure out which set of wires...

--sorry but theres way for me to tell without actually looking at it's
insides.

On 2012-01-06, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

It also has 2 much smaller brown wires coming out that were just tied out of
the way to the lifting ring. I suspect those were for a tach or possible a
heat sensor.

Likely a heat sensor. Tach wires would probably be differently
color coded (assuming a DC tach generator), and would be unlikely on a
three phase motor anyway. The motor is going to lock to the frequency
(with some slip varying with load).

It just has paper labels on the black wires, and they look like they were
put on by somebody who tried to figure out the motor in the past. They do
not match up with any of the three phase wiring numbers/ letters standards
I've been able to find. I want to hook it to a VFD for testing. Since the
data plate says it will operate from 6-130 HZ and lists a range of RPM from
96 to 3680 that tells me was probably intended to operate off of VFD in the
first place.

Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

Skip down to the bottom for other information you posted
elsewhere and the changes that apply.

Well ... you can identify pairs of wires with a given winding
using an ohmmeter. With 6 wires, it is unlikely to be anything but three
independent windings, which can be connected in either Wye or Delta,
depending on the voltage needed.

Mark the pairs by something like a piece of different colored
tape around each pair, so you can identify the pairs later.

Now -- once you have them set up in pairs, put the shaft in your
lathe chuck or something else which can rotate it at a constant speed.

Then apply say 6 VAC (from a filament transformer) to one
winding, and declare one end of that winding as "common". Connect one
end of each of the others to your common (creating a Wye connection),
turn on the lathe, and apply the 6 VAC. Measure the voltage from common
to the 6VAC point, to see what you really have (likely near 6.3 VAC
instead of the nominal 6 VAC, but note whatever it is.)

Then measure the voltage between the 6.3 VAC point and the free
end of the other two windings. If the voltage you get on one of those
is less than the 6.3 VAC which you had before, reverse that winding
(swap the common end with the free end), and check again. At this
point, it should be higher than the 6.3 VAC input with the lathe
spinning the motor.

Once you have both of these wired to give you more voltage (you
could use an oscilloscope to verify the phase of each winding, but the
voltage should be enough of a clue, start numbering the wires, taking
your first pair (the one which you were feeding power into) and number
the part which joins the other two as '1', and the other end as '2'.
Then pick another winding and number its joined end as '3', and the free
end as '4', and finally the last with the joined end as '5', and the
free end as '6'.

You can now use it as wired -- if it is intended to be a "Wye"
connection. Measure the current in Wye and Delta configurations with no
load and pick the lower of the two (not as close to saturation) as the
one to use with your 240 VAC from the VFD.

If you want Delta, hook '2' to '3', '4' to '5' and '6' to '1'.

Note -- I don't know whether this numbering will match what you
will find in books, but as long as you use only it and what I have
described, you should be able to make things work.

Instead of using the lathe to spin the motor, and using low
voltages for safety, you could apply say 120 VAC to one winding, and
give the shaft a spin with a rope to start it, and measure your voltage
relative to 120 VAC -- just be much more careful.

It sounds like a very nice motor to have.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++

Hmm ... looking on the web. I find other places where you asked
the same question, and on one you say:

================================================== ====================
The wires are in groups of 3. Any 2 in the first group read
about 20 ohms.

Any 2 in the second group read about 2 ohms.
================================================== ====================

Which suggests that the three which measure 2 ohms are likely the three
phase power input windings, and the other three are perhaps feedback to
some kind of controller other than the standard VFD. What happens if
you connect the first three to the outputs from the VFD. (This is
assuming that both sets of wires are the same gauge. If the ones to the
20 Ohm wires are heavier, apply power to those instead, but at 5 HP, I
doubt that this will be right. If it as I now believe, just cap each of
the 20 Ohm wires to protect them from shorting into anything.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2012-01-06, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

It also has 2 much smaller brown wires coming out that were just tied out
of
the way to the lifting ring. I suspect those were for a tach or possible
a
heat sensor.

Likely a heat sensor. Tach wires would probably be differently
color coded (assuming a DC tach generator), and would be unlikely on a
three phase motor anyway. The motor is going to lock to the frequency
(with some slip varying with load).

It just has paper labels on the black wires, and they look like they were
put on by somebody who tried to figure out the motor in the past. They
do
not match up with any of the three phase wiring numbers/ letters
standards
I've been able to find. I want to hook it to a VFD for testing. Since
the
data plate says it will operate from 6-130 HZ and lists a range of RPM
from
96 to 3680 that tells me was probably intended to operate off of VFD in
the
first place.

Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

Skip down to the bottom for other information you posted
elsewhere and the changes that apply.

Well ... you can identify pairs of wires with a given winding
using an ohmmeter. With 6 wires, it is unlikely to be anything but three
independent windings, which can be connected in either Wye or Delta,
depending on the voltage needed.

Mark the pairs by something like a piece of different colored
tape around each pair, so you can identify the pairs later.

Now -- once you have them set up in pairs, put the shaft in your
lathe chuck or something else which can rotate it at a constant speed.

Then apply say 6 VAC (from a filament transformer) to one
winding, and declare one end of that winding as "common". Connect one
end of each of the others to your common (creating a Wye connection),
turn on the lathe, and apply the 6 VAC. Measure the voltage from common
to the 6VAC point, to see what you really have (likely near 6.3 VAC
instead of the nominal 6 VAC, but note whatever it is.)

Then measure the voltage between the 6.3 VAC point and the free
end of the other two windings. If the voltage you get on one of those
is less than the 6.3 VAC which you had before, reverse that winding
(swap the common end with the free end), and check again. At this
point, it should be higher than the 6.3 VAC input with the lathe
spinning the motor.

Once you have both of these wired to give you more voltage (you
could use an oscilloscope to verify the phase of each winding, but the
voltage should be enough of a clue, start numbering the wires, taking
your first pair (the one which you were feeding power into) and number
the part which joins the other two as '1', and the other end as '2'.
Then pick another winding and number its joined end as '3', and the free
end as '4', and finally the last with the joined end as '5', and the
free end as '6'.

You can now use it as wired -- if it is intended to be a "Wye"
connection. Measure the current in Wye and Delta configurations with no
load and pick the lower of the two (not as close to saturation) as the
one to use with your 240 VAC from the VFD.

If you want Delta, hook '2' to '3', '4' to '5' and '6' to '1'.

Note -- I don't know whether this numbering will match what you
will find in books, but as long as you use only it and what I have
described, you should be able to make things work.

Instead of using the lathe to spin the motor, and using low
voltages for safety, you could apply say 120 VAC to one winding, and
give the shaft a spin with a rope to start it, and measure your voltage
relative to 120 VAC -- just be much more careful.


It sounds like a very nice motor to have.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++

Hmm ... looking on the web. I find other places where you asked
the same question, and on one you say:

================================================== ====================
The wires are in groups of 3. Any 2 in the first group read
about 20 ohms.

Any 2 in the second group read about 2 ohms.
================================================== ====================

Which suggests that the three which measure 2 ohms are likely the three
phase power input windings, and the other three are perhaps feedback to
some kind of controller other than the standard VFD.


Does it matter which order I hook them up in then? It was my understanding
if you just had the three wires all you had to do was hook them up and if
the motor ran backwards you just swapped any two wires. (unless the VFD has
reversed the motor for you)

What happens if
you connect the first three to the outputs from the VFD.

I have not hooked up the VFD or the motor yet. Still doing my homework.
All I did today was setup a 240 V disconnect with a short 10 gauge cord and
a locking plug, then installed a receptacle with a matching outlet. That
circuit was intended for my future air compressor, but it will work for this
for now. Oh, I did also order a frequency meter to hook to the VFD for
testing. I couldn't find my old Radio Shack meter with the frequency
counter.


(This is
assuming that both sets of wires are the same gauge.

They are the same gauge.

If the ones to the
20 Ohm wires are heavier, apply power to those instead, but at 5 HP, I
doubt that this will be right. If it as I now believe, just cap each of
the 20 Ohm wires to protect them from shorting into anything.

What do you think about the thought that it might be a two speed motor?

Good Luck,

I'll probably use a momentary switch for the start switch on the VFD for
testing, and keep a fire extinguisher handy. I need to pick up a 2w 1k POT
for frequency control for now too. The VFD will be setup with 0-10 VDC
control eventually, but for now its going to be setup for variable
resistance control.

Thanks Don.


Bob La Londe

Good recommendations, as usual DoN. I thought about commenting on low
voltage testing, but left it out considering that Bob was getting good info.

Just connecting a low AC voltage to any winding should provide
useful/noteworthy results in testing induction motors with multiple
windings, since the separate windings share the same ferrous frame/core.. in
much the same way of connecting a low AC voltage to a transformer will
always cause some detectable output on any good windings around the core.
The noted results information may take some further head
scratching/pondering, but will lead to reasonable conclusions.. even without
spinning the rotor.

For unmarked leads, one definitely should use some arbitrary markings to
retain any sanity while trying the testing.. paint colors, temporary letters
or any markings are better than trying to keep the leads sorted while
testing.

I'll add that for some DIY types, it may be possible to use a low setting on
a variable speed drill to spin motor rotors or armatures (or in generators),
and a precise coupler isn't needed.. the coupler can be a piece of
automotive heater hose with a plug and a bolt in one end, or similar
improvised gizmo.

There are a lot of testing procedures for motors, often covered in better
motor books which will generally also include descriptions of different
types of winding schemes and standardized lead numbering patterns.
Other types of 3-phase motors with more than 6 leads are often much more
difficult to decipher if there are none of the original wire numbers to be
found on the leads. Opening the case may reveal the wire numbers inside, but
otherwise most folks would need to have a motor shop sort out the lead
numbers.

--
WB
..........


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2012-01-06, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

It also has 2 much smaller brown wires coming out that were just tied out
of
the way to the lifting ring. I suspect those were for a tach or possible
a
heat sensor.

Likely a heat sensor. Tach wires would probably be differently
color coded (assuming a DC tach generator), and would be unlikely on a
three phase motor anyway. The motor is going to lock to the frequency
(with some slip varying with load).

It just has paper labels on the black wires, and they look like they were
put on by somebody who tried to figure out the motor in the past. They
do
not match up with any of the three phase wiring numbers/ letters
standards
I've been able to find. I want to hook it to a VFD for testing. Since
the
data plate says it will operate from 6-130 HZ and lists a range of RPM
from
96 to 3680 that tells me was probably intended to operate off of VFD in
the
first place.

Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

Skip down to the bottom for other information you posted
elsewhere and the changes that apply.

Well ... you can identify pairs of wires with a given winding
using an ohmmeter. With 6 wires, it is unlikely to be anything but three
independent windings, which can be connected in either Wye or Delta,
depending on the voltage needed.

Mark the pairs by something like a piece of different colored
tape around each pair, so you can identify the pairs later.

Now -- once you have them set up in pairs, put the shaft in your
lathe chuck or something else which can rotate it at a constant speed.

Then apply say 6 VAC (from a filament transformer) to one
winding, and declare one end of that winding as "common". Connect one
end of each of the others to your common (creating a Wye connection),
turn on the lathe, and apply the 6 VAC. Measure the voltage from common
to the 6VAC point, to see what you really have (likely near 6.3 VAC
instead of the nominal 6 VAC, but note whatever it is.)

Then measure the voltage between the 6.3 VAC point and the free
end of the other two windings. If the voltage you get on one of those
is less than the 6.3 VAC which you had before, reverse that winding
(swap the common end with the free end), and check again. At this
point, it should be higher than the 6.3 VAC input with the lathe
spinning the motor.

Once you have both of these wired to give you more voltage (you
could use an oscilloscope to verify the phase of each winding, but the
voltage should be enough of a clue, start numbering the wires, taking
your first pair (the one which you were feeding power into) and number
the part which joins the other two as '1', and the other end as '2'.
Then pick another winding and number its joined end as '3', and the free
end as '4', and finally the last with the joined end as '5', and the
free end as '6'.

You can now use it as wired -- if it is intended to be a "Wye"
connection. Measure the current in Wye and Delta configurations with no
load and pick the lower of the two (not as close to saturation) as the
one to use with your 240 VAC from the VFD.

If you want Delta, hook '2' to '3', '4' to '5' and '6' to '1'.

Note -- I don't know whether this numbering will match what you
will find in books, but as long as you use only it and what I have
described, you should be able to make things work.

Instead of using the lathe to spin the motor, and using low
voltages for safety, you could apply say 120 VAC to one winding, and
give the shaft a spin with a rope to start it, and measure your voltage
relative to 120 VAC -- just be much more careful.

It sounds like a very nice motor to have.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++

Hmm ... looking on the web. I find other places where you asked
the same question, and on one you say:

================================================== ====================
The wires are in groups of 3. Any 2 in the first group read
about 20 ohms.

Any 2 in the second group read about 2 ohms.
================================================== ====================

Which suggests that the three which measure 2 ohms are likely the three
phase power input windings, and the other three are perhaps feedback to
some kind of controller other than the standard VFD. What happens if
you connect the first three to the outputs from the VFD. (This is
assuming that both sets of wires are the same gauge. If the ones to the
20 Ohm wires are heavier, apply power to those instead, but at 5 HP, I
doubt that this will be right. If it as I now believe, just cap each of
the 20 Ohm wires to protect them from shorting into anything.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

As far as checking the two previously unused leads, it depends upon how the
meter being used for the test behaves when checking a zero ohm connection..
many DMM meters may consistently display up to about 7 ohms with the lead
tips pressed together.

Whatever the meter shows with the tips pressed together is zero then, for
that meter.. (assuming the connections are clean and snug at the other ends
of the test leads), so if that reading is displayed while checking those 2
leads, then the internal device is most likely a thermal protection
switch/sensor.

These types of switches are generally the bi-metal/Klixon type and when
their specified temperature is reached, they open (infinity ohms) until the
internal motor temp cools to a level where the contacts close again.

--
WB
..........


"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...


"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
I believe Ned is correct with the 2-speed description.

Perhaps, but I did provide erroneous data for his initial conclusion. The
data plate says 3/130Hz not 6/130.

3-phase motors don't have start windings.


Some of the reading on that subject is a bit confusing in reference to
synchronous motors.

It may be worthwhile to determine what the 2 unused wires go to.. they
may

And if Leland was still in business or I had a manual I would find out.
I'm not ready to start disassembling the motor as yet. Their connection
is not readily apparent with the rear cover off.

be a normally closed thermal protection switch/sensor connections (so
zero or very low ohms reading), which would be used for cutting the power
source when the internal temp exceeds the specific rating of the
switch/sensor.
Thermal protect connections for a 3-phase motor would typically be wired
to the appropriate terminals on the motor drive/VFD.

When attempting to trial run a motor with an unknown history, it's often
a good idea to plan for other results besides a perfectly normal motor.

Yup, and I would like to make sure I am atleast connecting the motor
properly before making a trial run.

Some precautions should always be observed, the first one being to make a
clean, secure connection (not just an old piece of speaker wire) to the
motor case and connect it to a known good earth ground of the utility
electrical system/source.

The first thing I did was wire in an outlet (PROPERLY) and install a new
cord and plug on the disconnect I plan to connect the VFD and motor to
when ready. The entire assembly IS electrically grounded.


If not already, a good time to get familiar with the VFD protection
settings is before applying power to it.. that generally means having the
correct operating manual, and studying it to become familiarized with all
of the protection features, how to enable them and what parameters would
be appropriate for a motor of unknown history.


I do have the correct original factory manual for the VFD, and I have read
it a couple times now. Right now I an trying to make sure I don't damage
the VFD when I connect the motor.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...

I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Some inverter rated motors have a separate fan motor in them. It could be
that you have 3 wires for fan (probably the 20 Ohm set) and 3 wires for the
motor (the 2 Ohm set). You can connect the VFD to the 3 low ohm wires and
power it up at a low speed, maybe 6hz or so. Also try the drive on the 20
Ohm leads, again try at low speed.

The problem with running a VFD rated motor at low speeds, down to 3hz, is
that their fan isn't turning fast enough to cool the motor. So you run a
power to the fan at rated line speed and power to the motor through the VFD.
I would think a motor rated down to 3hz would be equipped with a small
cooling fan motor. I guess the easy way to check is to turn the fan and see
if the shaft turns.

Just a thought.

RogerN

"Bob La Londe" fired this volley in
:

So how do I decide which set to hook up? Just do it and see what
speeds I get at what frequency?




Bob, this is just a guess, but I'm thinking it WON'T be the 20-ohm
windings.

That's the DCR. With AC (even at low frequencies) the inductance of the
windings will usually make them conduct somewhat less current than the
DCR would allow with DC applied.

With a 20-ohm DCR, the maximum any winding could draw would be 12 amps at
240 volts DC -- Even at inrush... even when stalling.

That doesn't sound like any 5HP motor I've used before. Mine had LOW
winding resistances.

Lloyd

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
As far as checking the two previously unused leads, it depends upon how
the meter being used for the test behaves when checking a zero ohm
connection.. many DMM meters may consistently display up to about 7 ohms
with the lead tips pressed together....
WB

A DMM will read low resistances quite accurately if you supply an external
current and use the meter to read the voltage drop. I just checked the
filament current of a taillight bulb, an old 1034 because it was handy. The
Tail filament draws about 0.55A at 12.0V, the Brake one draws 1.7A. Since
filament resistance increases with temperature a drop in the voltage caused
about half as much change in the current, so you shouldn't have to
compensate for the additional drop in the motor winding. If you want good
absolute instead of relative measurements, add a $3 HF meter on the 10A
range in series.

Attach insulated alligator clips to a trailer light socket to use the bulb
as a convenient tester. When I travelled on a motorcycle that was all the
electrical test equipment I carried and ever needed. It was perfect for
setting ignition timing, mostly for other people.

jsw

On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 20:56:10 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:



"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:45:01 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:59 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how
to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.


Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to
pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

I would use the ohm meter function first to get a better idea of what
you have. I suspect you have three windings with both ends of each
winding brought out. That would allow you to connect it as either star
or delta.


Dan

Well, a quick check doesn't seem to be the case. Get about 20 ohms
between
any two of three wires and 2 ohms between any 2 of the other three.

A start winding and a run winding? Which one is which?
I would guess the lower impedance (higher load) would be the run winding.

Will putting a start timer relay on the start winding do anything funny to
the VFD when it disconnects if that's the case?



It sounds like a 2 speed motor -- 2 sets of windings. 96 RPM @ 6 Hz is
a 4 pole winding; 3680 RPM @ 130 Hz is 2 poles.


My mistake. It say 3/130 hz, not 6/130.

The Data Plate Reads:

Leland Electrosystems Inc
Model 6273
Serial TX43042
FR 215
HP 5
HZ 3/130
C Temp rise Cont.
NO.71
RPM 96-3680
Class H insulation



96 RPM/3 Hz = (approx) 3680/3
In light of that, I'll withdraw my 2 speed motor guess and jump on the
motor + fan bandwagon. A less likely possibility is that the second
winding is some sort of resolver-like feedback device.

--
Ned Simmons

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:04:04 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 20:56:10 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:


The Data Plate Reads:

Leland Electrosystems Inc
Model 6273
Serial TX43042
FR 215
HP 5
HZ 3/130
C Temp rise Cont.
NO.71
RPM 96-3680
Class H insulation




correction: 96 RPM/3 Hz = (approx) 3680/130

--
Ned Simmons

On Jan 6, 5:59*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

It also has 2 much smaller brown wires coming out that were just tied out of
the way to the lifting ring. *I suspect those were for a tach or possible a
heat sensor.

It just has paper labels on the black wires, and they look like they were
put on by somebody who tried to figure out the motor in the past. *They do
not match up with any of the three phase wiring numbers/ letters standards
I've been able to find. *I want to hook it to a VFD for testing. *Since the
data plate says it will operate from 6-130 HZ and lists a range of RPM from
96 to 3680 that tells me was probably intended to operate off of VFD in the
first place.

Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

If it's any help, there are some wiring diagrams he
http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/motor_connections.htm

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

It also has 2 much smaller brown wires coming out that were just tied out
of
the way to the lifting ring. I suspect those were for a tach or possible
a
heat sensor.

It just has paper labels on the black wires, and they look like they were
put on by somebody who tried to figure out the motor in the past. They do
not match up with any of the three phase wiring numbers/ letters standards
I've been able to find. I want to hook it to a VFD for testing. Since
the
data plate says it will operate from 6-130 HZ and lists a range of RPM
from
96 to 3680 that tells me was probably intended to operate off of VFD in
the
first place.

Is there any practical way using a meter to determine which wires to pair
up
to connect to 3 connections on the VFD?

Ok... I got it figured out. Mostly... Its got an independent fan motor.
Doh! Had I been a bit more observant I would have seen that myself, but a
couple guys in this group pointed out the possibility, and commented on the
probability because a motor turning only 96 RPM at 3 Hz can't possibly be
turning a fan fast enough to cool itself.

It was easy enough to check. I spun the fan and held the brake disc on the
motor with my other hand. Wheeeeeeee!!!

It has six primary leads because there are two motors.

I suspect the 2 smallish brown wires are a thermal sensor. Not sure I can
test it except maybe... to wire up the motor and not the fan motor. LOL.

Life just got easier... if the motor works now.

Thanks guys.

On Jan 7, 6:12*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:

onnect to 3 connections on the VFD?

Ok... *I got it figured out. *Mostly... *Its got an independent fan motor.
Doh!
It has six primary leads because there are two motors.

I suspect the 2 smallish brown wires are a thermal sensor. *Not sure I can
test it except maybe... *to wire up the motor and not the fan motor. *LOL.

Life just got easier... if the motor works now.

Thanks guys.

Thanks for posting the answer.

Dan

On 2012-01-07, Bob La Londe wrote:
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

It looks like an inverter-rated motor...

96 dvide by 3=32

32 x 130= 4160 and if you then subtract 10% slip you get 3744 which is
right there in the ballpark....

Not sure what the other three wires are for--feedback perhaps or could be
there for a ventilating fan I suppose.

Which leaves the odd pair--could be a per/rev feedback, hall sensor or
magntic prox or for a fan or perhaps some kind thermal safety...



The odd pair of wires is probably either for a fan or for a thermister

What is the resistance between the two spare wires? If it is
close to zero Ohms, I would suggest that it is an overtemperature
sensor.

So how do I decide which set to hook up? Just do it and see what speeds I
get at what frequency?

I like the suggestion that the second set of three leads (the
higher resistance set) is a built-in fan, intended to be run by the
three phase from before the VFD. Since you don't have straight three
phase, you would have to add a capacitor to the 240 single phase to run
the fan.

As an experiment, I would suggest that you connect the higher
resistance leads alone to the VFD, with it set up to produce the normal
60 Hz output, and see if you hear a fan spinning inside the motor. (It
might be spinning backwards. I've got no way to tell which direction is
forwards, with all six wires black. Is there a vent at each end of the
motor, so you could feel air flowing through? If so, see which
direction (switch two of the three wires to reverse) feels like it is
producing more airflow. But it may be a sealed motor, with the fan just
circulating air between the center and heat sink fins at the outside.
(You have not put up a photo of the motor (use the dropbox if you don't
have a web site), and that might give some clues.

But if that gives fan operation sounds (and perhaps airflow out
the ends), then the lower resistance leads should be the motor itself.
(At 5HP, I would expect low resistance.) So, connect those wires to the
output of the VFD and see what the motor shaft does.

If both of those work, then comes the trick of finding a
reasonable value of run capacitor to keep the fan working. At a guess,
try something half-way between the lowest value which gives fan sounds
and the highest value.

Have you tried contacting the maker? With a motor designed and
rated for VFD operation, the company is probably not that old, and is
likely to still be around. Let them tell you what it really is.

Given the number of places where you appear to have posted this
same question, certainly you should contact the maker to ask about what
you have.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2012-01-07, Bob La Londe wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2012-01-06, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

[ ... ]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++

Hmm ... looking on the web. I find other places where you asked
the same question, and on one you say:

================================================== ====================
The wires are in groups of 3. Any 2 in the first group read
about 20 ohms.

Any 2 in the second group read about 2 ohms.
================================================== ====================

Which suggests that the three which measure 2 ohms are likely the three
phase power input windings, and the other three are perhaps feedback to
some kind of controller other than the standard VFD.


Does it matter which order I hook them up in then? It was my understanding
if you just had the three wires all you had to do was hook them up and if
the motor ran backwards you just swapped any two wires. (unless the VFD has
reversed the motor for you)

That is exactly how it should behave. You pick an order, note
the direction of the spindle (relative to how you want it to turn), and
either mark the three leads with the designation of the terminals which
they connect to (whatever the VFD maker picked), or interchange two,
verify that it now turns the direction you want, and *then* label the
wires. :-)

What happens if
you connect the first three to the outputs from the VFD.

I have not hooked up the VFD or the motor yet. Still doing my homework.

Based on the other suggestions, I believe that it is likely an
internal fan, designed to keep it cool when running at low speeds, where
a fan on the motor's rotor and shaft would not turn fast enough to
cool things properly.

I just got through posting (elsewhere in this thread) a way to
test this with your VFD, and some starting suggestions on how to run it
from the single phase if it is a fan. Remember -- the fan likely wants
three phase at 60 Hz to run properly, and you will have to fake that,
since your VFD will be producing much lower frequencies part of the
time.

Then you try the low resistance set, and expect the motor shaft
to turn.

All I did today was setup a 240 V disconnect with a short 10 gauge cord and
a locking plug, then installed a receptacle with a matching outlet. That
circuit was intended for my future air compressor, but it will work for this
for now.

I agree. The VFD will draw a sharp spike of current when it is
first connected -- to charge it's big DC capacitors.

Oh, I did also order a frequency meter to hook to the VFD for
testing. I couldn't find my old Radio Shack meter with the frequency
counter.

I would suggest not expecting anything reasonable from the
frequency meter. A VFD does not produce clean three phase sine waves,
but instead takes the full voltage from the internal capacitors (usually
1.414 times the input voltage, unless it is playing at being a voltage
doubler too, like those for operation from 120 VAC.) It then uses the
output MOSFETs or IGFETs to switch that on and off to the output. It
will start a phase by turning on the full voltage for a tiny amount of
time and then back off (to produce the effect of a very low voltage,
though it will in reality be quite high. Then it will turn it on again,
a bit longer, to pretend to be a voltage a little more along the curve,
and keep doing that until it keeps it on almost full time to pretend to
be the sine wave at it's peak, and then start getting narrower. It
will, once it reaches zero, start switching back on the same way to a
negative voltage, and go through the same sequence until the other half
cycle is completed. This is for one phase. The next phase goes through
the same pattern, a little later in the cycle, and the third does the
same again, still a little later, so they three are equally spaced.

This high frequency series of high voltage pulses are what the
frequency meter will most likely see -- if the voltages don't burn it
out immediately.

If you want to see the frequency, configure the VFD to display
it for you. :-)

(This is
assuming that both sets of wires are the same gauge.

They are the same gauge.

Likely fan for the high resistance, and motor for the low.
(Pending you getting in contact with the maker and finding out what is
*really* there.

Someone else suggested that you take it apart to see. Maybe or
maybe not. Depends on how difficult it is to take apart.

And if the two small gauge wires measure near 0 Ohms, it is
likely a thermal switch, and you want to wire it into the VFD in such a
way that it says *STOP* when it opens, to keep the magic smoke from
getting out of the motor. Put it in series with the Stop button, if
that is how you wind up configuring the VFD.

If the ones to the
20 Ohm wires are heavier, apply power to those instead, but at 5 HP, I
doubt that this will be right. If it as I now believe, just cap each of
the 20 Ohm wires to protect them from shorting into anything.

What do you think about the thought that it might be a two speed motor?

Highly unlikely -- with that wide a range of resistances.

Good Luck,

I'll probably use a momentary switch for the start switch on the VFD for
testing, and keep a fire extinguisher handy.

Disconnect first, fire extinguisher *soon* after there is no
power. :-)

I need to pick up a 2w 1k POT
for frequency control for now too. The VFD will be setup with 0-10 VDC
control eventually, but for now its going to be setup for variable
resistance control.

The same 2K pot should work with voltage control too. The VFD
should have a 10V output to drive the pot.

Good Luck,
DoN.

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On 2012-01-07, Wild_Bill wrote:
Good recommendations, as usual DoN. I thought about commenting on low
voltage testing, but left it out considering that Bob was getting good info.

Thanks!

Just connecting a low AC voltage to any winding should provide
useful/noteworthy results in testing induction motors with multiple
windings, since the separate windings share the same ferrous frame/core.. in
much the same way of connecting a low AC voltage to a transformer will
always cause some detectable output on any good windings around the core.

Yes -- but having the rotor rotating at some semi-reasonable
speed will carry induced magnetic poles around with the rotor, so the
behavior will be a bit closer to what you would see with a full three
phase applied, so it may make identifying things easier.

But since there turn out to be two isolated groups of
connections (either Delta or Wye -- who cares if all you have is two
wires to work with), the suggestion of someone that the higher
resistance ones are likely to be a built-in cooling fan makes a *lot* of
sense for a motor rated to cover that wide a range of speeds. That fan
really wants to be fed its own three phase -- from *before* the VFD, but
he does not have that AFIK.

The noted results information may take some further head
scratching/pondering, but will lead to reasonable conclusions.. even without
spinning the rotor.

But a little more information when spinning it.

For unmarked leads, one definitely should use some arbitrary markings to
retain any sanity while trying the testing.. paint colors, temporary letters
or any markings are better than trying to keep the leads sorted while
testing.

Absolutely. Ideally, some short lengths of a copper tubing
which will just slip over the wire's insulation, with numbers stamped
in, and then glued in place with tar so it *stays* with the wire. :-)
For diagnostic work, colored tapes will do -- and a notepad. :-)

I'll add that for some DIY types, it may be possible to use a low setting on
a variable speed drill to spin motor rotors or armatures (or in generators),
and a precise coupler isn't needed.. the coupler can be a piece of
automotive heater hose with a plug and a bolt in one end, or similar
improvised gizmo.

Yes -- but that will likely need someone to hold the drill motor
steady. With the lathe (assuming one big enough for the motor), the
motor is supported by its bearings and the chuck. And perhaps a couple
of boards to keep the foot of the motor from bashing the bed. :-)

There are a lot of testing procedures for motors, often covered in better
motor books which will generally also include descriptions of different
types of winding schemes and standardized lead numbering patterns.
Other types of 3-phase motors with more than 6 leads are often much more
difficult to decipher if there are none of the original wire numbers to be
found on the leads. Opening the case may reveal the wire numbers inside, but
otherwise most folks would need to have a motor shop sort out the lead
numbers.

Opening the case could show a separately powered internal fan,
intended to keep the air flowing while the motor is running at 3 RPM. :-)

It could also allow the two thin wires to be traced back to
something -- I suspect a thermal switch buried in the windings so it
knows when the windings are getting hot. But it could be a thermistor.
A NC switch would make more sense to switch off the command voltage
source at the VFD, and stop the motor when it is showing signs of
overheating. It should reset when it cools off, so be sure to wire
things so that one set of contacts re-closing won't start the motor in
the middle of the night. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

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On 2012-01-07, Denis G. wrote:
On Jan 6, 5:59*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
I have a Leland 6273 3 phase 240 V motor I am trying to figure out how to
hook up.

It has 6 black wires coming out of the motor.

It also has 2 much smaller brown wires coming out that were just tied out of
the way to the lifting ring. *I suspect those were for a tach or possible a
heat sensor.

[ ... ]

If it's any help, there are some wiring diagrams he
http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/motor_connections.htm

Maybe so -- but that site does not like me. It shuts down the
connection immediately, whether I'm using Opera or FireFox as a browser. :-(

I can't run O.E. as a browser -- wrong CPU and OS for that, so
if that is what it wants, it will have to do so without me. :-)

Maybe just undergoing service/updates, because it is just after
midnight locally.

But this appears to be a rather weird one as three phase motors
go, based on what we have discovered.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

Based on the other suggestions, I believe that it is likely an
internal fan, designed to keep it cool when running at low speeds, where
a fan on the motor's rotor and shaft would not turn fast enough to
cool things properly.


Wire a capacitors across the suspect windings in or c2c configuration and
spin the fan with a blast of compressed air while checking the leads voltage
with a voltmeter to see if voltage is generated.

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:6_GdnS8tPcZ3rZTSnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

Based on the other suggestions, I believe that it is likely an
internal fan, designed to keep it cool when running at low speeds, where
a fan on the motor's rotor and shaft would not turn fast enough to
cool things properly.


Wire a capacitors across the suspect windings in or c2c configuration and
spin the fan with a blast of compressed air while checking the leads
voltage with a voltmeter to see if voltage is generated.


oops meant to say capacitors in delta or c2c

On 8 Jan 2012 05:04:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

But a little more information when spinning it.

For unmarked leads, one definitely should use some arbitrary markings to
retain any sanity while trying the testing.. paint colors, temporary letters
or any markings are better than trying to keep the leads sorted while
testing.

Absolutely. Ideally, some short lengths of a copper tubing
which will just slip over the wire's insulation, with numbers stamped
in, and then glued in place with tar so it *stays* with the wire. :-)
For diagnostic work, colored tapes will do -- and a notepad. :-)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pack-Thoma...-/290603658618

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PANDUIT-...-/400194202986

I had one of these stolen out of my truck when they cleaned me out some
12 or so years ago

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panduit-Pan-...-/180767845098

I use mostly standard cloth adhesive Medical tape these days..and a fine
point felt tip permanant marker. $3 at the drugstore and works fine.
The Sports Tape types seem to have better adhesive when covering wire
that will get oily over time

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
As far as checking the two previously unused leads, it depends upon how
the meter being used for the test behaves when checking a zero ohm
connection.. many DMM meters may consistently display up to about 7 ohms
with the lead tips pressed together.


Wow! I have never had a meter zero that far off. Digital or analog. I've
had cheap meters and good meters over the years, and some of the cheap
digital ones did not zero, but it was usually in fractions of an ohm. 7
ohms would be a heck of a lot to have to remember to account for all of them
time.

wrote in message
...
On Jan 7, 6:12 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:

onnect to 3 connections on the VFD?

Ok... I got it figured out. Mostly... Its got an independent fan motor.
Doh!
It has six primary leads because there are two motors.

I suspect the 2 smallish brown wires are a thermal sensor. Not sure I can
test it except maybe... to wire up the motor and not the fan motor. LOL.

Life just got easier... if the motor works now.

Thanks guys.

Thanks for posting the answer.

Dan

What annoys me is I pulled the back cover (it was dented) to check the
condition of the fan, and it was sitting right there in front of me the
whole time. Its just not what I was expecting to see.... so I didn't see
it. I looked in the housing afterwards and I could see three wires going to
the fan and three going down to the lower windings. GACK!

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
...
Wow! I have never had a meter zero that far off. Digital or analog.
I've had cheap meters and good meters over the years, and some of the
cheap digital ones did not zero, but it was usually in fractions of an
ohm. 7 ohms would be a heck of a lot to have to remember to account for
all of them time.

I have, and it's always been a poor connection at the alligator clip jacks
or in the leads, usually where they flex most.

jsw

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 12:31:03 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
...
Wow! I have never had a meter zero that far off. Digital or analog.
I've had cheap meters and good meters over the years, and some of the
cheap digital ones did not zero, but it was usually in fractions of an
ohm. 7 ohms would be a heck of a lot to have to remember to account for
all of them time.

I have, and it's always been a poor connection at the alligator clip jacks
or in the leads, usually where they flex most.

jsw

Ayup. I use a meter often enough in rough conditions that I keep a
spare set of leads in the truck. Ebay is a fair place to buy 4-5 sets at
a time.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Consider those as drive three phase and the other three are sense.
Sense is often taken in and the speed is controlled in this feedback mode.

Martin

On 1/8/2012 11:27 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Jan 7, 6:12 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:

onnect to 3 connections on the VFD?

Ok... I got it figured out. Mostly... Its got an independent fan motor.
Doh!
It has six primary leads because there are two motors.

I suspect the 2 smallish brown wires are a thermal sensor. Not sure I
can
test it except maybe... to wire up the motor and not the fan motor. LOL.

Life just got easier... if the motor works now.

Thanks guys.

Thanks for posting the answer.

Dan

What annoys me is I pulled the back cover (it was dented) to check the
condition of the fan, and it was sitting right there in front of me the
whole time. Its just not what I was expecting to see.... so I didn't see
it. I looked in the housing afterwards and I could see three wires going
to the fan and three going down to the lower windings. GACK!

"Martin Eastburn" wrote in message
...
Consider those as drive three phase and the other three are sense.
Sense is often taken in and the speed is controlled in this feedback mode.


Huh!?





Martin

On 1/8/2012 11:27 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Jan 7, 6:12 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:

onnect to 3 connections on the VFD?

Ok... I got it figured out. Mostly... Its got an independent fan motor.
Doh!
It has six primary leads because there are two motors.

I suspect the 2 smallish brown wires are a thermal sensor. Not sure I
can
test it except maybe... to wire up the motor and not the fan motor.
LOL.

Life just got easier... if the motor works now.

Thanks guys.

Thanks for posting the answer.

Dan

What annoys me is I pulled the back cover (it was dented) to check the
condition of the fan, and it was sitting right there in front of me the
whole time. Its just not what I was expecting to see.... so I didn't see
it. I looked in the housing afterwards and I could see three wires going
to the fan and three going down to the lower windings. GACK!