"Obama's Fake SSAN" wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:53:29 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Obama's Fake SSAN" wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
as until removed from office he is still the president.

Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:21:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:17:25 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:53:29 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Obama's Fake SSAN" wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
as until removed from office he is still the president.

Cheers,

John B.

Not if fraud is involved. Its a very interesting case.

Unless you are saying that working for say..a murderer is ok until he
has been convicted, despite you having seen the murder personally?

Gunner

You aren't reading it before you post. OBama is president, sworn in,
the whole thing and he remains president until either he completes his
term in office, dies, or is removed from office.

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:53:29 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Obama's Fake SSAN" wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
as until removed from office he is still the president.

Cheers,

John B.

Absolutely. He's not the first military man to try that gambit, either. I
forget what happened to the other guy, but I remember they were talking
about a court martial.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake SSAN" wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....

"ATP" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake SSAN" wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....

Maybe he got a job offer in civilian life and is looking for an excuse to
get out.

Or he's hoping for a psychological discharge.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:28:27 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:21:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:17:25 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:53:29 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Obama's Fake SSAN" wrote in message
.. .
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
as until removed from office he is still the president.

Cheers,

John B.

Not if fraud is involved. Its a very interesting case.

Unless you are saying that working for say..a murderer is ok until he
has been convicted, despite you having seen the murder personally?

Gunner

You aren't reading it before you post. OBama is president, sworn in,
the whole thing and he remains president until either he completes his
term in office, dies, or is removed from office.

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On 08/26/2011 08:17 PM, john B. wrote:


Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
as until removed from office he is still the president.

Make that "lawful orders".

See oath at
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm

and Uniform Code of Military Justice

892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION

Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;

shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

The requirement for the order to be lawful is discussed at:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/milit...yingorders.htm

and references the trial of First Lieutenant William Calley for
following an unlawful order.

If President Obama is not qualified to be president by birth,
his orders as Commander in Chief are unlawful.

But read the cites and make up your own mind.



technomaNge
--
Dumbasses everywhere I look.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:58:36 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:28:27 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:21:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:17:25 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:53:29 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Obama's Fake SSAN" wrote in message
. ..
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
as until removed from office he is still the president.

Cheers,

John B.

Not if fraud is involved. Its a very interesting case.

Unless you are saying that working for say..a murderer is ok until he
has been convicted, despite you having seen the murder personally?

Gunner

You aren't reading it before you post. OBama is president, sworn in,
the whole thing and he remains president until either he completes his
term in office, dies, or is removed from office.

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

That is a nice try at an end-run but a lot of faulty logic there.

Firstly, did the Sgt. "SEE" Obama commit a crime? Nope. Have you seen
Obama commit a crime? Nope. Has anyone seen Obama commit a crime?
Nope.

As for Obama's birth certificate, or lack thereof is, I might mention
that you, gunner, have been challenged a number of times to provide a
copy of your DD 2 14 as proof that you really were in the military,
which you have so far refused to do.... it seems illogical, at best,
to challenge Obama to do something that you refuse to do.

Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:51:09 -0500, technomaNge wrote:

On 08/26/2011 08:17 PM, john B. wrote:


Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
as until removed from office he is still the president.

Make that "lawful orders".

See oath at
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm


Except that the wording is " I will obey the orders of the President
of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over
me".



and Uniform Code of Military Justice

892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION

Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;

shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

The requirement for the order to be lawful is discussed at:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/milit...yingorders.htm

and references the trial of First Lieutenant William Calley for
following an unlawful order.

If President Obama is not qualified to be president by birth,
his orders as Commander in Chief are unlawful.

But read the cites and make up your own mind.



technomaNge

During the review of the Calley case in 1973 the court noted that
"For the inferior to assume to determine the question of the
lawfulness of an order given him by a superior would of itself, as a
general rule, amount to insubordination, and such an assumption
carried into practice would subvert military discipline. Where the
order is apparently regular and lawful on its face, he is not to go
behind it to satisfy himself that his superior has proceeded with
authority, but is to obey it according to its terms, the only
exceptions recognized to the rule of obedience being cases of orders
so manifestly beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness

Except in such instances of palpable illegality, which must be of rare
occurrence, the inferior should presume that the order was lawful and
authorized and obey it accordingly, and in obeying it can scarcely
fail to be held justified by a military court."

Based on that precedent the question would be that "is reading read
something on the Internet justification for desertion?"
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/27/2011 6:12 AM, ATP wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....


Military justice has been and remains an oxymoron. Case in point;
William Calley convicted of leading the massacre of hundreds of
civilians in My Lai, Vietnam. Sentenced to 40 months imprisonment; of
which most of it was spent in his quarters on a military base in Georgia.

So if all they do to you for massacring hundreds of people is what
Calley got then you can expect that same kind of lack of justice
throughout the entire system.

Hawke

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:08:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

That is a nice try at an end-run but a lot of faulty logic there.

Firstly, did the Sgt. "SEE" Obama commit a crime? Nope. Have you seen
Obama commit a crime? Nope. Has anyone seen Obama commit a crime?
Nope.

As for Obama's birth certificate, or lack thereof is, I might mention
that you, gunner, have been challenged a number of times to provide a
copy of your DD 2 14 as proof that you really were in the military,
which you have so far refused to do.... it seems illogical, at best,
to challenge Obama to do something that you refuse to do.

Cheers,

John B.


http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ama+birth+cert


As for challenging the Obamassiah...Im not the President of the US...a
person REQUIRED to be a Natural Born Citizen before becoming president.

Feel free to browse around the above link.

VBG

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:23:02 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:51:09 -0500, technomaNge wrote:

On 08/26/2011 08:17 PM, john B. wrote:


Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
as until removed from office he is still the president.

Make that "lawful orders".

See oath at
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm


Except that the wording is " I will obey the orders of the President
of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over
me".



and Uniform Code of Military Justice

892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION

Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;

shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

The requirement for the order to be lawful is discussed at:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/milit...yingorders.htm

and references the trial of First Lieutenant William Calley for
following an unlawful order.

If President Obama is not qualified to be president by birth,
his orders as Commander in Chief are unlawful.

But read the cites and make up your own mind.



technomaNge

During the review of the Calley case in 1973 the court noted that
"For the inferior to assume to determine the question of the
lawfulness of an order given him by a superior would of itself, as a
general rule, amount to insubordination, and such an assumption
carried into practice would subvert military discipline. Where the
order is apparently regular and lawful on its face, he is not to go
behind it to satisfy himself that his superior has proceeded with
authority, but is to obey it according to its terms, the only
exceptions recognized to the rule of obedience being cases of orders
so manifestly beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness

Except in such instances of palpable illegality, which must be of rare
occurrence, the inferior should presume that the order was lawful and
authorized and obey it accordingly, and in obeying it can scarcely
fail to be held justified by a military court."

Based on that precedent the question would be that "is reading read
something on the Internet justification for desertion?"
Cheers,

John B.

When its known widely that the order is illegal..or the issuing officer
has no standing, its the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.

Your citation indicates that a person following an APPARENT legal order
is held blameless. When its known that that order was given
Unlawfully...its also the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:28 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/27/2011 6:12 AM, ATP wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....


Military justice has been and remains an oxymoron. Case in point;
William Calley convicted of leading the massacre of hundreds of
civilians in My Lai, Vietnam. Sentenced to 40 months imprisonment; of
which most of it was spent in his quarters on a military base in Georgia.

So if all they do to you for massacring hundreds of people is what
Calley got then you can expect that same kind of lack of justice
throughout the entire system.

Hawke

Actually Calley was convicted of killing 22 people. Not hundreds.

Cheers,

John B.

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:23:02 +0700, john B. ?
wrote:

?On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:51:09 -0500, technomaNge ? wrote:
?
??On 08/26/2011 08:17 PM, john B. wrote:
??
???
??? Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
??? President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
??? that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
??? as until removed from office he is still the president.
??
??Make that "lawful orders".
??
??See oath at
??http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm
??
?
?Except that the wording is " I will obey the orders of the President
?of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over
?me".
?
?
?
??and Uniform Code of Military Justice
??
??? 892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
???
??? Any person subject to this chapter who--
???
??? (1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
???
??? (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
???
??? (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
???
??? shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
??
??The requirement for the order to be lawful is discussed at:
??
??http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/milit...yingorders.htm
??
??and references the trial of First Lieutenant William Calley for
??following an unlawful order.
??
??If President Obama is not qualified to be president by birth,
??his orders as Commander in Chief are unlawful.
??
??But read the cites and make up your own mind.
??
??
??
??technomaNge
?
?During the review of the Calley case in 1973 the court noted that
?"For the inferior to assume to determine the question of the
?lawfulness of an order given him by a superior would of itself, as a
?general rule, amount to insubordination, and such an assumption
?carried into practice would subvert military discipline. Where the
?order is apparently regular and lawful on its face, he is not to go
?behind it to satisfy himself that his superior has proceeded with
?authority, but is to obey it according to its terms, the only
?exceptions recognized to the rule of obedience being cases of orders
?so manifestly beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
?to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness
?
?Except in such instances of palpable illegality, which must be of rare
?occurrence, the inferior should presume that the order was lawful and
?authorized and obey it accordingly, and in obeying it can scarcely
?fail to be held justified by a military court."
?
?Based on that precedent the question would be that "is reading read
?something on the Internet justification for desertion?"
?Cheers,
?
?John B.

When its known widely that the order is illegal..or the issuing officer
has no standing, its the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.

Your citation indicates that a person following an APPARENT legal order
is held blameless. When its known that that order was given
Unlawfully...its also the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.


I refused several illegal orders in the US Army. Like officers
trying to bully thier way into secure areas they weren't on the list of
authorized personel. One Lt. Broshard called our commanding general,
and REALLY got his ass chewed out.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:40:03 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:23:02 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:51:09 -0500, technomaNge wrote:

On 08/26/2011 08:17 PM, john B. wrote:


Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
as until removed from office he is still the president.

Make that "lawful orders".

See oath at
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm


Except that the wording is " I will obey the orders of the President
of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over
me".



and Uniform Code of Military Justice

892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION

Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;

shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

The requirement for the order to be lawful is discussed at:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/milit...yingorders.htm

and references the trial of First Lieutenant William Calley for
following an unlawful order.

If President Obama is not qualified to be president by birth,
his orders as Commander in Chief are unlawful.

But read the cites and make up your own mind.



technomaNge

During the review of the Calley case in 1973 the court noted that
"For the inferior to assume to determine the question of the
lawfulness of an order given him by a superior would of itself, as a
general rule, amount to insubordination, and such an assumption
carried into practice would subvert military discipline. Where the
order is apparently regular and lawful on its face, he is not to go
behind it to satisfy himself that his superior has proceeded with
authority, but is to obey it according to its terms, the only
exceptions recognized to the rule of obedience being cases of orders
so manifestly beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness

Except in such instances of palpable illegality, which must be of rare
occurrence, the inferior should presume that the order was lawful and
authorized and obey it accordingly, and in obeying it can scarcely
fail to be held justified by a military court."

Based on that precedent the question would be that "is reading read
something on the Internet justification for desertion?"
Cheers,

John B.

When its known widely that the order is illegal..or the issuing officer
has no standing, its the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.

Your citation indicates that a person following an APPARENT legal order
is held blameless. When its known that that order was given
Unlawfully...its also the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.

Gunner

Go back and read the quotation - which was the court's not mine. You
will see that the court felt that unless the order is "manifestly
beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness" it is up to the
Troops to obey.

But you are leading up to saying whatever order Calley gave was an
illegal order and shouldn't be obeyed. But stop and think a moment.

There you are taking fire from a village. You are in a rice growing
area and the only cover is the berms between the paddies. People are
getting hit. what do you do?

If I remember correctly the Army's procedure was to call in either
Artillery or Air support and nuke the village. Should the pilot or
artillery officer refuse to obey the request because there might be
non-combatants in the village? Should the pilot and the artillery
commander be A court-martialed because some civilians died?


Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 11:54:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:23:02 +0700, john B. ?
wrote:

?On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:51:09 -0500, technomaNge ? wrote:
?
??On 08/26/2011 08:17 PM, john B. wrote:
??
???
??? Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
??? President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
??? that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
??? as until removed from office he is still the president.
??
??Make that "lawful orders".
??
??See oath at
??http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm
??
?
?Except that the wording is " I will obey the orders of the President
?of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over
?me".
?
?
?
??and Uniform Code of Military Justice
??
??? 892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
???
??? Any person subject to this chapter who--
???
??? (1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
???
??? (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
???
??? (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
???
??? shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
??
??The requirement for the order to be lawful is discussed at:
??
??http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/milit...yingorders.htm
??
??and references the trial of First Lieutenant William Calley for
??following an unlawful order.
??
??If President Obama is not qualified to be president by birth,
??his orders as Commander in Chief are unlawful.
??
??But read the cites and make up your own mind.
??
??
??
??technomaNge
?
?During the review of the Calley case in 1973 the court noted that
?"For the inferior to assume to determine the question of the
?lawfulness of an order given him by a superior would of itself, as a
?general rule, amount to insubordination, and such an assumption
?carried into practice would subvert military discipline. Where the
?order is apparently regular and lawful on its face, he is not to go
?behind it to satisfy himself that his superior has proceeded with
?authority, but is to obey it according to its terms, the only
?exceptions recognized to the rule of obedience being cases of orders
?so manifestly beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
?to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness
?
?Except in such instances of palpable illegality, which must be of rare
?occurrence, the inferior should presume that the order was lawful and
?authorized and obey it accordingly, and in obeying it can scarcely
?fail to be held justified by a military court."
?
?Based on that precedent the question would be that "is reading read
?something on the Internet justification for desertion?"
?Cheers,
?
?John B.

When its known widely that the order is illegal..or the issuing officer
has no standing, its the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.

Your citation indicates that a person following an APPARENT legal order
is held blameless. When its known that that order was given
Unlawfully...its also the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.


I refused several illegal orders in the US Army. Like officers
trying to bully thier way into secure areas they weren't on the list of
authorized personel. One Lt. Broshard called our commanding general,
and REALLY got his ass chewed out.

We had a guy that refused the Wing Commander entrance into a secure
area that he was guarding. The W.C. got a bit upset and said, "don't
you recognize me" and the airman replied, "yes sir, but you don't have
a flight line pass".

The W.C. drove off in his jeep and (probably) after cooling down a bit
pass the word to the Squadron Commander that his man had done a good
job.
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/28/2011 5:36 AM, john B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:28 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/27/2011 6:12 AM, ATP wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....


Military justice has been and remains an oxymoron. Case in point;
William Calley convicted of leading the massacre of hundreds of
civilians in My Lai, Vietnam. Sentenced to 40 months imprisonment; of
which most of it was spent in his quarters on a military base in Georgia.

So if all they do to you for massacring hundreds of people is what
Calley got then you can expect that same kind of lack of justice
throughout the entire system.

Hawke

Actually Calley was convicted of killing 22 people. Not hundreds.

Cheers,

John B.



We don't give a hoot what the man was "convicted" of. We know what he
did. He lead a massacre of hundreds of civilian old men, women, and
children. His punishment was so far below the level of the crime it's a
joke. Which just proves my point; the words justice and military never
ought to be used in the same sentence.

Hawke

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:28 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/27/2011 6:12 AM, ATP wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....


Military justice has been and remains an oxymoron. Case in point;
William Calley convicted of leading the massacre of hundreds of
civilians in My Lai, Vietnam. Sentenced to 40 months imprisonment; of
which most of it was spent in his quarters on a military base in Georgia.

So if all they do to you for massacring hundreds of people is what
Calley got then you can expect that same kind of lack of justice
throughout the entire system.

Hawke


He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

As an aside: "After the conviction, the White House received over 5000
telegrams; the ratio was 100 to 1 in favor of leniency.[10] In a
telephone survey of the American public, 79% disagreed with the
verdict, 81% believed that the life sentence Calley had received was
too stern, and 69% believed Calley had been made a scapegoat.[10]"

Ultimately, Calley served only three and a half years of house arrest
in his quarters at Fort Benning. He petitioned the federal district
court for habeas corpus on February 11, 1974, which was granted on
September 25, 1974, along with his immediate release, by federal judge
J. Robert Elliott. Judge Elliott found that Calley's trial had been
prejudiced by pretrial publicity, denial of subpoenas of certain
defense witnesses, refusal of the United States House of
Representatives to release testimony taken in executive session of its
My Lai investigation, and inadequate notice of the charges.

Later in 1974, President Nixon tacitly issued Calley a limited
Presidential Pardon. Consequently, his general court-martial
conviction and dismissal from the U.S. Army were upheld, however, the
prison sentence and subsequent parole obligations were commuted to
time served.
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:32:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:08:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

That is a nice try at an end-run but a lot of faulty logic there.

Firstly, did the Sgt. "SEE" Obama commit a crime? Nope. Have you seen
Obama commit a crime? Nope. Has anyone seen Obama commit a crime?
Nope.

As for Obama's birth certificate, or lack thereof is, I might mention
that you, gunner, have been challenged a number of times to provide a
copy of your DD 2 14 as proof that you really were in the military,
which you have so far refused to do.... it seems illogical, at best,
to challenge Obama to do something that you refuse to do.

Cheers,

John B.


http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ama+birth+cert


As for challenging the Obamassiah...Im not the President of the US...a
person REQUIRED to be a Natural Born Citizen before becoming president.

Feel free to browse around the above link.

VBG

Gunner


So... We are to believe that Obama won't show his birth certificate
because he is a liar and a cheat... and gunner won't show his DD 2 14
because......

Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:59:48 +0700, john B.
wrote:


Go back and read the quotation - which was the court's not mine. You
will see that the court felt that unless the order is "manifestly
beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness" it is up to the
Troops to obey.

When it is proven that the Commander in Chief is not legally allowed to
make those commands, its within the duties of each military member to
refuse them.

No further reading is necessary.

Unless you think the Nuremburg Trials were a farce?

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:21:34 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:32:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:08:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

That is a nice try at an end-run but a lot of faulty logic there.

Firstly, did the Sgt. "SEE" Obama commit a crime? Nope. Have you seen
Obama commit a crime? Nope. Has anyone seen Obama commit a crime?
Nope.

As for Obama's birth certificate, or lack thereof is, I might mention
that you, gunner, have been challenged a number of times to provide a
copy of your DD 2 14 as proof that you really were in the military,
which you have so far refused to do.... it seems illogical, at best,
to challenge Obama to do something that you refuse to do.

Cheers,

John B.


http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ama+birth+cert


As for challenging the Obamassiah...Im not the President of the US...a
person REQUIRED to be a Natural Born Citizen before becoming president.

Feel free to browse around the above link.

VBG

Gunner


So... We are to believe that Obama won't show his birth certificate
because he is a liar and a cheat... and gunner won't show his DD 2 14
because......

Because Im not President.

Was there any other questions?



Cheers,

John B.

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:08:20 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/28/2011 5:36 AM, john B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:28 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/27/2011 6:12 AM, ATP wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....


Military justice has been and remains an oxymoron. Case in point;
William Calley convicted of leading the massacre of hundreds of
civilians in My Lai, Vietnam. Sentenced to 40 months imprisonment; of
which most of it was spent in his quarters on a military base in Georgia.

So if all they do to you for massacring hundreds of people is what
Calley got then you can expect that same kind of lack of justice
throughout the entire system.

Hawke

Actually Calley was convicted of killing 22 people. Not hundreds.

Cheers,

John B.



We don't give a hoot what the man was "convicted" of. We know what he
did. He lead a massacre of hundreds of civilian old men, women, and
children. His punishment was so far below the level of the crime it's a
joke. Which just proves my point; the words justice and military never
ought to be used in the same sentence.

Hawke

Yes! And Gunner appears to advocate the culling of the political left
- ****! Lets get him too. And that damned guy from N.J. who keeps
researching things and poking holes in the best political theories.
What the hell, we know they are bad people lets just toss them in the
Hoosegow; don't need no damned trial, just get 'um.

What the hell; lets not even bother with a trial and all that
foolishness, just send the boys around and knock on the door. Shoot
'um right there on the doorstep.

Interesting that a bloke who claims so much education can't seem to
understand the benefits of a legal system.

And, by the way, Calley was charged with 22 counts of murder,
convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment.
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:09:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:21:34 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:32:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:08:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

That is a nice try at an end-run but a lot of faulty logic there.

Firstly, did the Sgt. "SEE" Obama commit a crime? Nope. Have you seen
Obama commit a crime? Nope. Has anyone seen Obama commit a crime?
Nope.

As for Obama's birth certificate, or lack thereof is, I might mention
that you, gunner, have been challenged a number of times to provide a
copy of your DD 2 14 as proof that you really were in the military,
which you have so far refused to do.... it seems illogical, at best,
to challenge Obama to do something that you refuse to do.

Cheers,

John B.


http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ama+birth+cert


As for challenging the Obamassiah...Im not the President of the US...a
person REQUIRED to be a Natural Born Citizen before becoming president.

Feel free to browse around the above link.

VBG

Gunner


So... We are to believe that Obama won't show his birth certificate
because he is a liar and a cheat... and gunner won't show his DD 2 14
because......

Because Im not President.

Was there any other questions?


I see. So if you are not president you don't need to tell the
truth..... Interesting moral code.
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:05:04 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:08:20 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/28/2011 5:36 AM, john B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:28 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/27/2011 6:12 AM, ATP wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....


Military justice has been and remains an oxymoron. Case in point;
William Calley convicted of leading the massacre of hundreds of
civilians in My Lai, Vietnam. Sentenced to 40 months imprisonment; of
which most of it was spent in his quarters on a military base in Georgia.

So if all they do to you for massacring hundreds of people is what
Calley got then you can expect that same kind of lack of justice
throughout the entire system.

Hawke

Actually Calley was convicted of killing 22 people. Not hundreds.

Cheers,

John B.



We don't give a hoot what the man was "convicted" of. We know what he
did. He lead a massacre of hundreds of civilian old men, women, and
children. His punishment was so far below the level of the crime it's a
joke. Which just proves my point; the words justice and military never
ought to be used in the same sentence.

Hawke

Yes! And Gunner appears to advocate the culling of the political left
- ****! Lets get him too. And that damned guy from N.J. who keeps
researching things and poking holes in the best political theories.
What the hell, we know they are bad people lets just toss them in the
Hoosegow; don't need no damned trial, just get 'um.

What the hell; lets not even bother with a trial and all that
foolishness, just send the boys around and knock on the door. Shoot
'um right there on the doorstep.

Getting me..may take a great deal more than you would imagine.

As for Lets shoot em right at the door...who is the We you are referring
to?

If its the Leftwing...they are already the walking dead. If its the
rightwing....they will do far more than a merciful bullet.

Interesting that a bloke who claims so much education can't seem to
understand the benefits of a legal system.

And, by the way, Calley was charged with 22 counts of murder,
convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment.
Cheers,

John B.

And he was let out of prison in about 3 yrs. Odd that, eh?

Is he still around?

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:14:27 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:09:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:21:34 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:32:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:08:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

That is a nice try at an end-run but a lot of faulty logic there.

Firstly, did the Sgt. "SEE" Obama commit a crime? Nope. Have you seen
Obama commit a crime? Nope. Has anyone seen Obama commit a crime?
Nope.

As for Obama's birth certificate, or lack thereof is, I might mention
that you, gunner, have been challenged a number of times to provide a
copy of your DD 2 14 as proof that you really were in the military,
which you have so far refused to do.... it seems illogical, at best,
to challenge Obama to do something that you refuse to do.

Cheers,

John B.


http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ama+birth+cert


As for challenging the Obamassiah...Im not the President of the US...a
person REQUIRED to be a Natural Born Citizen before becoming president.

Feel free to browse around the above link.

VBG

Gunner


So... We are to believe that Obama won't show his birth certificate
because he is a liar and a cheat... and gunner won't show his DD 2 14
because......

Because Im not President.

Was there any other questions?


I see. So if you are not president you don't need to tell the
truth..... Interesting moral code.
Cheers,

John B.

Correct. As Democrats prove each and every day. If its good enough for
the average Demonrat Congress Critter...its good enough for the
lumpinprolitariat. Right?

Now about that single upmost criteria that the President must have on
his side...being a Natural Born Citizen. NO other governmental
individual has that hanging over his head.

And you simply blow it off with a wift of your hand and a shrug of your
shoulders.

You vote Democrat..dontcha?

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On 8/29/2011 3:08 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:59:48 +0700, john
wrote:


Go back and read the quotation - which was the court's not mine. You
will see that the court felt that unless the order is "manifestly
beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness" it is up to the
Troops to obey.

When it is proven that the Commander in Chief is not legally allowed to
make those commands, its within the duties of each military member to
refuse them.

No further reading is necessary.

Unless you think the Nuremburg Trials were a farce?

The birthers are a farce. Mr. Obama has been proven, many times over
and by many independent means, to be fully eligible to be president.
And fully capable compared to what the republicans offered in the same
election.

"john B." wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 11:54:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
? wrote:

?
?Gunner Asch wrote:
??
?? On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:23:02 +0700, john B. ?
?? wrote:
??
?? ?On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:51:09 -0500, technomaNge ? wrote:
?? ?
?? ??On 08/26/2011 08:17 PM, john B. wrote:
?? ??
?? ???
?? ??? Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
?? ??? President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
?? ??? that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
?? ??? as until removed from office he is still the president.
?? ??
?? ??Make that "lawful orders".
?? ??
?? ??See oath at
?? ??http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm
?? ??
?? ?
?? ?Except that the wording is " I will obey the orders of the President
?? ?of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over
?? ?me".
?? ?
?? ?
?? ?
?? ??and Uniform Code of Military Justice
?? ??
?? ??? 892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
?? ???
?? ??? Any person subject to this chapter who--
?? ???
?? ??? (1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
?? ???
?? ??? (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
?? ???
?? ??? (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
?? ???
?? ??? shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
?? ??
?? ??The requirement for the order to be lawful is discussed at:
?? ??
?? ??http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/milit...yingorders.htm
?? ??
?? ??and references the trial of First Lieutenant William Calley for
?? ??following an unlawful order.
?? ??
?? ??If President Obama is not qualified to be president by birth,
?? ??his orders as Commander in Chief are unlawful.
?? ??
?? ??But read the cites and make up your own mind.
?? ??
?? ??
?? ??
?? ??technomaNge
?? ?
?? ?During the review of the Calley case in 1973 the court noted that
?? ?"For the inferior to assume to determine the question of the
?? ?lawfulness of an order given him by a superior would of itself, as a
?? ?general rule, amount to insubordination, and such an assumption
?? ?carried into practice would subvert military discipline. Where the
?? ?order is apparently regular and lawful on its face, he is not to go
?? ?behind it to satisfy himself that his superior has proceeded with
?? ?authority, but is to obey it according to its terms, the only
?? ?exceptions recognized to the rule of obedience being cases of orders
?? ?so manifestly beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
?? ?to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness
?? ?
?? ?Except in such instances of palpable illegality, which must be of rare
?? ?occurrence, the inferior should presume that the order was lawful and
?? ?authorized and obey it accordingly, and in obeying it can scarcely
?? ?fail to be held justified by a military court."
?? ?
?? ?Based on that precedent the question would be that "is reading read
?? ?something on the Internet justification for desertion?"
?? ?Cheers,
?? ?
?? ?John B.
??
?? When its known widely that the order is illegal..or the issuing officer
?? has no standing, its the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.
??
?? Your citation indicates that a person following an APPARENT legal order
?? is held blameless. When its known that that order was given
?? Unlawfully...its also the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.
?
?
? I refused several illegal orders in the US Army. Like officers
?trying to bully thier way into secure areas they weren't on the list of
?authorized personel. One Lt. Broshard called our commanding general,
?and REALLY got his ass chewed out.

We had a guy that refused the Wing Commander entrance into a secure
area that he was guarding. The W.C. got a bit upset and said, "don't
you recognize me" and the airman replied, "yes sir, but you don't have
a flight line pass".

The W.C. drove off in his jeep and (probably) after cooling down a bit
pass the word to the Squadron Commander that his man had done a good
job.
Cheers,


They tried to court martial me for repairing depot level equipment
outside a depot. That lasted less than 15 minutes, before my company
commander convinced the sergeant that it wasn't a good idea to file the
paperwork.


I had a green Lt. order me to drop a piece of equipment to salute
him. I told him to get out of my way before I had to have him arrested
for interfering with the performance of my duty. He started yelling,
and a Full Bird came running to see what was going on. He told the
'Greenie' to apologize, and hold the door for me. There are numerous
other times that I shouldn't talk about, so I won't.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
On 8/29/2011 3:08 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:59:48 +0700, john
wrote:


Go back and read the quotation - which was the court's not mine. You
will see that the court felt that unless the order is "manifestly
beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness" it is up to the
Troops to obey.

When it is proven that the Commander in Chief is not legally allowed to
make those commands, its within the duties of each military member to
refuse them.

No further reading is necessary.

Unless you think the Nuremburg Trials were a farce?

The birthers are a farce. Mr. Obama has been proven, many times over and
by many independent means, to be fully eligible to be president. And fully
capable compared to what the republicans offered in the same election.

That, more or less, is what I understand as well. It seems that those that
prefer to not agree with the findings claim fraud, then refer to everything
and anything that is offered as "proof" that comes from like minded people,
as if, somehow, enough people say it isn't so, that's the way it becomes.

Net result?

They muddy the water, making it difficult, if not impossible, for those that
seek the truth to make that determination. Anything provided that is
credible is discredited. How in hell can anyone make a proper conclusion?

The only option open to me is to tune them out. As I've said on more than
one occasion, the moment the least bit of controversy is discovered to be
untrue, from that moment forward, the comments of those that won't leave it
alone become suspect. Credibility is lost----and, in my case, lost for
good.

Harold

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 05:44:43 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:14:27 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:09:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:21:34 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:32:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:08:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

That is a nice try at an end-run but a lot of faulty logic there.

Firstly, did the Sgt. "SEE" Obama commit a crime? Nope. Have you seen
Obama commit a crime? Nope. Has anyone seen Obama commit a crime?
Nope.

As for Obama's birth certificate, or lack thereof is, I might mention
that you, gunner, have been challenged a number of times to provide a
copy of your DD 2 14 as proof that you really were in the military,
which you have so far refused to do.... it seems illogical, at best,
to challenge Obama to do something that you refuse to do.

Cheers,

John B.


http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ama+birth+cert


As for challenging the Obamassiah...Im not the President of the US...a
person REQUIRED to be a Natural Born Citizen before becoming president.

Feel free to browse around the above link.

VBG

Gunner


So... We are to believe that Obama won't show his birth certificate
because he is a liar and a cheat... and gunner won't show his DD 2 14
because......

Because Im not President.

Was there any other questions?


I see. So if you are not president you don't need to tell the
truth..... Interesting moral code.
Cheers,

John B.

Correct. As Democrats prove each and every day. If its good enough for
the average Demonrat Congress Critter...its good enough for the
lumpinprolitariat. Right?

Now about that single upmost criteria that the President must have on
his side...being a Natural Born Citizen. NO other governmental
individual has that hanging over his head.

And you simply blow it off with a wift of your hand and a shrug of your
shoulders.

You vote Democrat..dontcha?

Gunner

Bad guess. I don't vote democrat.

But more to the point, since you confirm that you believe it is
perfectly acceptable for anyone but the president to tell lies, the
question arises, "can we believe gunner?" the answer seems to be, from
his own statement, no.

Thus, as gunner has confirmed that there is no reason for him to tell
the truth is there any reason to believe his stories about the
president's birth certificate?

Nope.

Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 05:41:40 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:05:04 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:08:20 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/28/2011 5:36 AM, john B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:28 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/27/2011 6:12 AM, ATP wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....


Military justice has been and remains an oxymoron. Case in point;
William Calley convicted of leading the massacre of hundreds of
civilians in My Lai, Vietnam. Sentenced to 40 months imprisonment; of
which most of it was spent in his quarters on a military base in Georgia.

So if all they do to you for massacring hundreds of people is what
Calley got then you can expect that same kind of lack of justice
throughout the entire system.

Hawke

Actually Calley was convicted of killing 22 people. Not hundreds.

Cheers,

John B.



We don't give a hoot what the man was "convicted" of. We know what he
did. He lead a massacre of hundreds of civilian old men, women, and
children. His punishment was so far below the level of the crime it's a
joke. Which just proves my point; the words justice and military never
ought to be used in the same sentence.

Hawke

Yes! And Gunner appears to advocate the culling of the political left
- ****! Lets get him too. And that damned guy from N.J. who keeps
researching things and poking holes in the best political theories.
What the hell, we know they are bad people lets just toss them in the
Hoosegow; don't need no damned trial, just get 'um.

What the hell; lets not even bother with a trial and all that
foolishness, just send the boys around and knock on the door. Shoot
'um right there on the doorstep.

Getting me..may take a great deal more than you would imagine.

As for Lets shoot em right at the door...who is the We you are referring
to?

If its the Leftwing...they are already the walking dead. If its the
rightwing....they will do far more than a merciful bullet.

Interesting that a bloke who claims so much education can't seem to
understand the benefits of a legal system.

And, by the way, Calley was charged with 22 counts of murder,
convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment.
Cheers,

John B.

And he was let out of prison in about 3 yrs. Odd that, eh?

Is he still around?

Gunner

He petitioned the federal district court for habeas corpus on February
11, 1974, which was granted on September 25, 1974, along with his
immediate release, by federal judge J. Robert Elliott. Judge Elliott
found that Calley's trial had been prejudiced by pretrial publicity,
denial of subpoenas of certain defense witnesses, refusal of the
United States House of Representatives to release testimony taken in
executive session of its My Lai investigation, and inadequate notice
of the charges.

Subsequently, , President Nixon issued Calley a limited Presidential
Pardon. His general court-martial conviction and dismissal from the
U.S. Army were upheld, however, the prison sentence and subsequent
parole obligations were commuted to time served.


Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:00:48 -0400, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:

On 8/29/2011 3:08 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:59:48 +0700, john
wrote:


Go back and read the quotation - which was the court's not mine. You
will see that the court felt that unless the order is "manifestly
beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness" it is up to the
Troops to obey.

When it is proven that the Commander in Chief is not legally allowed to
make those commands, its within the duties of each military member to
refuse them.

No further reading is necessary.

Unless you think the Nuremburg Trials were a farce?

The birthers are a farce. Mr. Obama has been proven, many times over
and by many independent means, to be fully eligible to be president.
And fully capable compared to what the republicans offered in the same
election.


Given the Republican's apparent efforts to block whatever the
President does it is logical to think that if there was any real doubt
that he was unqualified to serve that they would not have been all
over it. But they haven't.

If, during the primaries, it could have been proved that he was
ineligible to serve how much would the Clinton's paid to make that
public. But they haven't.

If the Birthers actually have proof that Obama was not born in the
U.S. one has to wonder why they haven't presented it to a court of
law. But they haven't.

Cheers,

John B.

To add to that was a horror story.

General LeMay Commander of SAC - came into the gate with
his stars flying on his car and the Sargent at the gate not
only recognized the driver but the General before they got there.

He was known to be a xxxx type when unpleased...

He was waved by but stopped his driver and went back and dressed the
guard down and ripped his stripes off.

It took him two years to get them back - the Wing commander was on his
side. It just had to be on the quite side just in case it was watched.

Those were the 50's - cold war and ice in the veins.

Martin

On 8/29/2011 1:07 AM, john B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 11:54:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:23:02 +0700, john B. ?
wrote:

?On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:51:09 -0500, technomaNge ? wrote:
?
??On 08/26/2011 08:17 PM, john B. wrote:
??
???
??? Interesting. Given that he has sworn an oath to obey orders of the
??? President and the officers placed over him. I wonder how he equates
??? that with Obama's possession, or lack thereof, of a birth certificate,
??? as until removed from office he is still the president.
??
??Make that "lawful orders".
??
??See oath at
??http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm
??
?
?Except that the wording is " I will obey the orders of the President
?of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over
?me".
?
?
?
??and Uniform Code of Military Justice
??
??? 892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
???
??? Any person subject to this chapter who--
???
??? (1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
???
??? (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
???
??? (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
???
??? shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
??
??The requirement for the order to be lawful is discussed at:
??
??http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/milit...yingorders.htm
??
??and references the trial of First Lieutenant William Calley for
??following an unlawful order.
??
??If President Obama is not qualified to be president by birth,
??his orders as Commander in Chief are unlawful.
??
??But read the cites and make up your own mind.
??
??
??
??technomaNge
?
?During the review of the Calley case in 1973 the court noted that
?"For the inferior to assume to determine the question of the
?lawfulness of an order given him by a superior would of itself, as a
?general rule, amount to insubordination, and such an assumption
?carried into practice would subvert military discipline. Where the
?order is apparently regular and lawful on its face, he is not to go
?behind it to satisfy himself that his superior has proceeded with
?authority, but is to obey it according to its terms, the only
?exceptions recognized to the rule of obedience being cases of orders
?so manifestly beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
?to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness
?
?Except in such instances of palpable illegality, which must be of rare
?occurrence, the inferior should presume that the order was lawful and
?authorized and obey it accordingly, and in obeying it can scarcely
?fail to be held justified by a military court."
?
?Based on that precedent the question would be that "is reading read
?something on the Internet justification for desertion?"
?Cheers,
?
?John B.

When its known widely that the order is illegal..or the issuing officer
has no standing, its the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.

Your citation indicates that a person following an APPARENT legal order
is held blameless. When its known that that order was given
Unlawfully...its also the duty of the soldier to refuse to obey it.


I refused several illegal orders in the US Army. Like officers
trying to bully thier way into secure areas they weren't on the list of
authorized personel. One Lt. Broshard called our commanding general,
and REALLY got his ass chewed out.

We had a guy that refused the Wing Commander entrance into a secure
area that he was guarding. The W.C. got a bit upset and said, "don't
you recognize me" and the airman replied, "yes sir, but you don't have
a flight line pass".

The W.C. drove off in his jeep and (probably) after cooling down a bit
pass the word to the Squadron Commander that his man had done a good
job.
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 20:32:48 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
On 8/29/2011 3:08 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:59:48 +0700, john
wrote:


Go back and read the quotation - which was the court's not mine. You
will see that the court felt that unless the order is "manifestly
beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as
to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness" it is up to the
Troops to obey.

When it is proven that the Commander in Chief is not legally allowed to
make those commands, its within the duties of each military member to
refuse them.

No further reading is necessary.

Unless you think the Nuremburg Trials were a farce?

The birthers are a farce. Mr. Obama has been proven, many times over and
by many independent means, to be fully eligible to be president. And fully
capable compared to what the republicans offered in the same election.

That, more or less, is what I understand as well. It seems that those that
prefer to not agree with the findings claim fraud, then refer to everything
and anything that is offered as "proof" that comes from like minded people,
as if, somehow, enough people say it isn't so, that's the way it becomes.

Net result?

They muddy the water, making it difficult, if not impossible, for those that
seek the truth to make that determination. Anything provided that is
credible is discredited. How in hell can anyone make a proper conclusion?

The only option open to me is to tune them out. As I've said on more than
one occasion, the moment the least bit of controversy is discovered to be
untrue, from that moment forward, the comments of those that won't leave it
alone become suspect. Credibility is lost----and, in my case, lost for
good.

Harold

Odd that providing clear and solid evidence that Obama is not qualified
to be President....is somehow "muddy the waters..making it difficult etc
etc etc"

Oddly enough..that sounds like a guy I once know trying to excuse
himself from any blame when a co-generation setting exploded in flames
and causing several million dollars in repairs and nearly costing an
employee his life. He had been warned by the techs clearly and with no
hesitation on numerous occasions both verbally and in print.

The poor dumb ******* DIDNT want to hear the warnings...and as a
result...he wound up losing his job at age 62.

Shrug, Harold..do as you wish. Believe as you wish. Just dont keep
trying to shift your weight from foot to foot in indecision and
hope/change.

Shrug...its your choice old son..your choice.

Gunner


Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:44:51 +0700, john B.
wrote:



Given the Republican's apparent efforts to block whatever the
President does it is logical to think that if there was any real doubt
that he was unqualified to serve that they would not have been all
over it. But they haven't.

If, during the primaries, it could have been proved that he was
ineligible to serve how much would the Clinton's paid to make that
public. But they haven't.

If the Birthers actually have proof that Obama was not born in the
U.S. one has to wonder why they haven't presented it to a court of
law. But they haven't.

Cheers,

John B.


Johnny...they have indeed presented it to many courts of law. And nearly
ALL of the courts have refused to hear it. Would you want to be the
judge that was responsible for the removal of a US president?

Several courts have not refused to hear it..and have ruled that the
state of Hawaii is required to present Obamas birth cert.

So far..Hawaii has....refused.

For someone who posts..you sure dont seem to know much about the
subject.

Odd that, eh wot?

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:37:58 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 05:41:40 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:05:04 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:08:20 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/28/2011 5:36 AM, john B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:28 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/27/2011 6:12 AM, ATP wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....


Military justice has been and remains an oxymoron. Case in point;
William Calley convicted of leading the massacre of hundreds of
civilians in My Lai, Vietnam. Sentenced to 40 months imprisonment; of
which most of it was spent in his quarters on a military base in Georgia.

So if all they do to you for massacring hundreds of people is what
Calley got then you can expect that same kind of lack of justice
throughout the entire system.

Hawke

Actually Calley was convicted of killing 22 people. Not hundreds.

Cheers,

John B.



We don't give a hoot what the man was "convicted" of. We know what he
did. He lead a massacre of hundreds of civilian old men, women, and
children. His punishment was so far below the level of the crime it's a
joke. Which just proves my point; the words justice and military never
ought to be used in the same sentence.

Hawke

Yes! And Gunner appears to advocate the culling of the political left
- ****! Lets get him too. And that damned guy from N.J. who keeps
researching things and poking holes in the best political theories.
What the hell, we know they are bad people lets just toss them in the
Hoosegow; don't need no damned trial, just get 'um.

What the hell; lets not even bother with a trial and all that
foolishness, just send the boys around and knock on the door. Shoot
'um right there on the doorstep.

Getting me..may take a great deal more than you would imagine.

As for Lets shoot em right at the door...who is the We you are referring
to?

If its the Leftwing...they are already the walking dead. If its the
rightwing....they will do far more than a merciful bullet.

Interesting that a bloke who claims so much education can't seem to
understand the benefits of a legal system.

And, by the way, Calley was charged with 22 counts of murder,
convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment.
Cheers,

John B.

And he was let out of prison in about 3 yrs. Odd that, eh?

Is he still around?

Gunner

He petitioned the federal district court for habeas corpus on February
11, 1974, which was granted on September 25, 1974, along with his
immediate release, by federal judge J. Robert Elliott. Judge Elliott
found that Calley's trial had been prejudiced by pretrial publicity,
denial of subpoenas of certain defense witnesses, refusal of the
United States House of Representatives to release testimony taken in
executive session of its My Lai investigation, and inadequate notice
of the charges.

Subsequently, , President Nixon issued Calley a limited Presidential
Pardon. His general court-martial conviction and dismissal from the
U.S. Army were upheld, however, the prison sentence and subsequent
parole obligations were commuted to time served.


Cheers,

John B.


Yes indeed. Time served. 3 yrs of a life sentence.

Seems like Calley took the best deal he could get..and the courts were
more than happy to give him one.

And you dont consider that to be in the slightest bit odd.....?

VBG

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:50:24 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 05:44:43 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:14:27 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:09:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:21:34 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:32:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:08:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

That is a nice try at an end-run but a lot of faulty logic there.

Firstly, did the Sgt. "SEE" Obama commit a crime? Nope. Have you seen
Obama commit a crime? Nope. Has anyone seen Obama commit a crime?
Nope.

As for Obama's birth certificate, or lack thereof is, I might mention
that you, gunner, have been challenged a number of times to provide a
copy of your DD 2 14 as proof that you really were in the military,
which you have so far refused to do.... it seems illogical, at best,
to challenge Obama to do something that you refuse to do.

Cheers,

John B.


http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ama+birth+cert


As for challenging the Obamassiah...Im not the President of the US...a
person REQUIRED to be a Natural Born Citizen before becoming president.

Feel free to browse around the above link.

VBG

Gunner


So... We are to believe that Obama won't show his birth certificate
because he is a liar and a cheat... and gunner won't show his DD 2 14
because......

Because Im not President.

Was there any other questions?


I see. So if you are not president you don't need to tell the
truth..... Interesting moral code.
Cheers,

John B.

Correct. As Democrats prove each and every day. If its good enough for
the average Demonrat Congress Critter...its good enough for the
lumpinprolitariat. Right?

Now about that single upmost criteria that the President must have on
his side...being a Natural Born Citizen. NO other governmental
individual has that hanging over his head.

And you simply blow it off with a wift of your hand and a shrug of your
shoulders.

You vote Democrat..dontcha?

Gunner

Bad guess. I don't vote democrat.

But more to the point, since you confirm that you believe it is
perfectly acceptable for anyone but the president to tell lies, the
question arises, "can we believe gunner?" the answer seems to be, from
his own statement, no.

Thus, as gunner has confirmed that there is no reason for him to tell
the truth is there any reason to believe his stories about the
president's birth certificate?

Nope.

Cheers,

John B.


Odd then that you wholly believe the verbal utterances of a Democrat,
but consider the postings from me..to be lies.

And yet you have no evidence one way or another to doubt what Ive
posted..but the evidence against Obama is large and overpowering.

VBG

Doesnt speak well for your powers of observation, determination or lack
of bias .....does it?

VBG


Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On 8/29/2011 5:05 AM, john B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:08:20 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/28/2011 5:36 AM, john B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:28 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 8/27/2011 6:12 AM, ATP wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

"Obama's Fake wrote in message
...
An Air Force staff sergeant based in Germany says he's been AWOL
since last week because he read on the Internet that President
Barack Obama's long form birth certificate is a fraud.

Inspired by fellow birther, Army doctor Terrence Lakin, Staff
Sgt. Daryn J. Moran has plastered the Internet with the news
that he's deserting his post as an ophthalmology technician
overseas.

'Sounds like the dude has some prison time coming.

--
Ed Huntress
Not enough, unfortunately. Desertions and bogus claims of military service
don't seem to be punished severely in these modern times. I hope our
national defense is not impaired by the loss of this opthalmology
technician....


Military justice has been and remains an oxymoron. Case in point;
William Calley convicted of leading the massacre of hundreds of
civilians in My Lai, Vietnam. Sentenced to 40 months imprisonment; of
which most of it was spent in his quarters on a military base in Georgia.

So if all they do to you for massacring hundreds of people is what
Calley got then you can expect that same kind of lack of justice
throughout the entire system.

Hawke

Actually Calley was convicted of killing 22 people. Not hundreds.

Cheers,

John B.



We don't give a hoot what the man was "convicted" of. We know what he
did. He lead a massacre of hundreds of civilian old men, women, and
children. His punishment was so far below the level of the crime it's a
joke. Which just proves my point; the words justice and military never
ought to be used in the same sentence.

Hawke

Yes! And Gunner appears to advocate the culling of the political left
- ****! Lets get him too. And that damned guy from N.J. who keeps
researching things and poking holes in the best political theories.
What the hell, we know they are bad people lets just toss them in the
Hoosegow; don't need no damned trial, just get 'um.

What the hell; lets not even bother with a trial and all that
foolishness, just send the boys around and knock on the door. Shoot
'um right there on the doorstep.

Interesting that a bloke who claims so much education can't seem to
understand the benefits of a legal system.

And, by the way, Calley was charged with 22 counts of murder,
convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment.
Cheers,

John B.


When you know the facts about what happened the only question is what is
the punishment going to be. I happened to see on TV a couple days ago
the actual helicopter door gunner that landed and stopped troops from
killing more innocent people.

This massacre didn't come to light until about a year after it happened.
It was covered up by several officers. The facts of the case are crystal
clear. Troops under the command of Calley killed hundreds of unarmed
civilians. So you can forget about the legal system. It was a war
atrocity and everybody knows it. Like I said, the only thing in doubt
was who would get punished and how much.

Calley did 40 months after only getting convicted of 22 murders. Is that
normal for someone killing over twenty people? We have lots of people on
death row for only killing one. Casey Anthony was going to get the death
sentence for just killing her daughter. If that is justice then what
does someone deserve for heading up a massacre of hundreds. Death
penalty, anyone?

The bottom line is as I stated from the start. Justice and the military
are like oil and water. They don't go together and this is just one more
example of it.

Hawke

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:50:24 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 05:44:43 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:14:27 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:09:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:21:34 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:32:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:08:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

And that is the point. Until removed from office OBama is still
president and (if you were in the service you know this) the S/Sgt
swore to follow the orders of the president and officers placed over
him (the Sgt.).

Cheers,

John B.

So you would continue to work for the murderer, despite having seen him
commit his crime(s) until the moment he is convicted in court.

Interesting your standards...or lack of them.

Gunner

That is a nice try at an end-run but a lot of faulty logic there.

Firstly, did the Sgt. "SEE" Obama commit a crime? Nope. Have you seen
Obama commit a crime? Nope. Has anyone seen Obama commit a crime?
Nope.

As for Obama's birth certificate, or lack thereof is, I might mention
that you, gunner, have been challenged a number of times to provide a
copy of your DD 2 14 as proof that you really were in the military,
which you have so far refused to do.... it seems illogical, at best,
to challenge Obama to do something that you refuse to do.

Cheers,

John B.


http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ama+birth+cert


As for challenging the Obamassiah...Im not the President of the US...a
person REQUIRED to be a Natural Born Citizen before becoming president.

Feel free to browse around the above link.

VBG

Gunner


So... We are to believe that Obama won't show his birth certificate
because he is a liar and a cheat... and gunner won't show his DD 2 14
because......

Because Im not President.

Was there any other questions?


I see. So if you are not president you don't need to tell the
truth..... Interesting moral code.
Cheers,

John B.

Correct. As Democrats prove each and every day. If its good enough for
the average Demonrat Congress Critter...its good enough for the
lumpinprolitariat. Right?

Now about that single upmost criteria that the President must have on
his side...being a Natural Born Citizen. NO other governmental
individual has that hanging over his head.

And you simply blow it off with a wift of your hand and a shrug of your
shoulders.

You vote Democrat..dontcha?

Gunner

Bad guess. I don't vote democrat.

But more to the point, since you confirm that you believe it is
perfectly acceptable for anyone but the president to tell lies, the
question arises, "can we believe gunner?" the answer seems to be, from
his own statement, no.

Thus, as gunner has confirmed that there is no reason for him to tell
the truth is there any reason to believe his stories about the
president's birth certificate?

Nope.

Cheers,

John B.

Odd then that you wholly believe the verbal utterances of a Democrat,
but consider the postings from me..to be lies.

And yet you have no evidence one way or another to doubt what Ive
posted..but the evidence against Obama is large and overpowering.

VBG

Doesnt speak well for your powers of observation, determination or lack
of bias .....does it?


This doesn't speak well for the Kenyans

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/29/onyango-obama-obamas-uncle_n_940974.html?ncid=webmail3


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:56:04 +0700, john B.
wrote:


Johnny...they have indeed presented it to many courts of law. And nearly
ALL of the courts have refused to hear it. Would you want to be the
judge that was responsible for the removal of a US president?


Why not. After all that is what they threatened Agnew with -
prosecution for taking bribes - and he believed that they would. The
people who were set to get rid of Clinton, Nixon and Johnson certainly
weren't afraid.

Agnew wasnt a Democrat...was he? Hummm?

And Clinton had a solidly Republican Congress..and they certainly didnt
impeach him now did they? Hummmm?

Several courts have not refused to hear it..and have ruled that the
state of Hawaii is required to present Obamas birth cert.

So far..Hawaii has....refused.

For someone who posts..you sure dont seem to know much about the
subject.

Odd that, eh wot?

Gunner

sorry, wrong again.

If you are referring to the US District Court in Honolulu you are not
correct.

What actually happened was that the judge, Richard L. Puglisi, issued
an order that required the Hawaii Department of Health appear in
federal court Sept. 14 to show cause why Taitz should be prevented
from seeing whatever original 1961 documents the agency has on record
regarding Barack Obama's birth.

This is somewhat different from what you said. No demand to present
any certificates was made.

It is an order to show cause only. If the Department of Health cannot
show cause then the next step is the issuance of an order to disclose
the document.

You have, as they say, got the cart before the horse.

Cheers,

John B.

Incorrect. As they say...the horse is on the proper end..despite your
hopes and dreams of change.....VBG

The July 5 subpoena granted Taitz by the U.S. District Court for the
District of Hawaii was supposed to allow her to examine the original
1961 Obama birth certificate:

The Department of records REFUSED to allow her to see it as a "privacy
matter"

This despite the alleged PUBLIC release of the birth cert in question.

So now its been taken back to the District Court for enforcement.

The sad part of it is...that a visual examination probably wont be able
to determine if the newly manufactured fraudulant document is real or
not. Im sure the Obama has paid someone in the No Such Agencies to
generate a decent forgery this time. Its been long enough since July
to have done this neatly.


Read mo Court tells Hawaii officials to explain Obama's birth records
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=331517#ixzz1WXXjDLg4

Eh, you jumped the gun a bit, Gunner. The case was decided today:

"Final judgment is hereby entered for defendant [Astrue, the plaintiff being
Taitz], dismissing this case with prejudice."

Ouch! That's not a common thing to do. The judge is threatening Taitz with
imprisonment now:

08/30/2011 35 ORDER denying 12[RECAP] Motion to Compel; denying 18[RECAP]
Motion to Strike; denying 19[RECAP] Motion for Clarification; denying
20[RECAP] Motion for Default Judgment; and denying 22[RECAP] Motion to
Compel. Signed by Chief Judge Royce C. Lamberth on August 30, 2011. (lcrcl2)
(Entered: 08/30/2011)

08/30/2011 34 ORDER granting 21[RECAP] defendant's Motion for Summary
Judgment. Signed by Chief Judge Royce C. Lamberth on August 30, 2011.
(lcrcl2) (Entered: 08/30/2011)

08/30/2011 33 MEMORANDUM OPINION. Signed by Chief Judge Royce C. Lamberth on
August 30, 2011. (lcrcl2) (Entered: 08/30/2011)

[From the judge deciding the case] "As her numerous filings with the Court
demonstrate, plaintiff will stop at nothing to get to the bottom of this
alleged conspiracy. Unfortunately for plaintiff, today is not her lucky day.

"Her vehement allegations of fraud consist of mere 'bare suspicion[s]' and
thus fail to satisfy the public interest standard required under FOIA. Id.4

"Anyone who knowingly and willfully uses SSNVS to request or obtain
information from SSA under false pretenses violates Federal law and may be
punished by a fine, imprisonment or both. Id. at 5. As with the registration
acknowledgement form discussed above, the Court can only conclude that
plaintiff has submitted a page that some individual obtained under false
pretenses; that is, by representing himself as the President's employer. The
Court notes that both documents submitted by plaintiff are incomplete; the
address on the registration acknowledgment form and the employer
identification number on the SSNVS page have been blacked out, further
confirming the documents' fraudulent origins. For all of these reasons, the
Court will disregard both documents as well as any arguments made in
reliance on them."


Gunner, you're hereby appointed Chief Bull-Goose Birther Loony, one of the
few gullible saps left in North America who still believes Taitz's crap.

Hat's off to you. It must not be easy to be such a perpetual sucker. Most
such people are either dead from terminal stupidity or walking around in
circles, talking to themselves.

--
Ed Huntress