The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

i

"Ignoramus11979" wrote in message
...
The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

No problem. They LOVE guns. I was marketing manager for a Japanese machine
tool company (Sodick, although later I had the same job with Wasino), and
one of the things our engineers liked most was when I took them out to the
range and then out for a beer.

--
Ed Huntress

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
On 3/15/2011 7:52 PM, Ignoramus11979 wrote:

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Well I personally wouldn't want to stick around if things were getting
hot. But I have to say, it makes me think back to Chernobyl, and the men
that braved the dangers to try and stem that disaster. I'm sure not all of
them really understood what the risks where, but equally sure some did.


Jon

That last bunch of 50 in the Japanese plant must be some of the bravest and
most selfless people on earth.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2011-03-16, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Ignoramus11979" wrote in message
...
The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

No problem. They LOVE guns. I was marketing manager for a Japanese machine
tool company (Sodick, although later I had the same job with Wasino), and
one of the things our engineers liked most was when I took them out to the
range and then out for a beer.


This is what I am sort of expecting, they are suffering from gun
deprivation.

i

On 2011-03-16, Artemus wrote:

"Ignoramus11979" wrote in message
...
The plant is completely abandoned.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

And displace 10,000,000 illegal aliens already here????

We have a lot of room for hard working people.

i

On 2011-03-16, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 3/15/2011 7:52 PM, Ignoramus11979 wrote:

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Well I personally wouldn't want to stick around if things were getting
hot. But I have to say, it makes me think back to Chernobyl, and the men
that braved the dangers to try and stem that disaster. I'm sure not all
of them really understood what the risks where, but equally sure some did.

My guess is they did. They were not stupid.

i

On 2011-03-16, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
On 3/15/2011 7:52 PM, Ignoramus11979 wrote:

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Well I personally wouldn't want to stick around if things were getting
hot. But I have to say, it makes me think back to Chernobyl, and the men
that braved the dangers to try and stem that disaster. I'm sure not all of
them really understood what the risks where, but equally sure some did.


Jon

That last bunch of 50 in the Japanese plant must be some of the bravest and
most selfless people on earth.


Yes, and they were rotated, but now everyone is gone, the light is
off, and the only light that remains is the Cherenkoff radiation.

On 2011-03-16, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 3/15/2011 8:21 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:

That last bunch of 50 in the Japanese plant must be some of the bravest and
most selfless people on earth.

Hard to know what the facts are right now. I'm disappointed they are
bugging out, but if there's really nothing more they can do at the
moment, then sticking around would be just suicide.

Still, heroes all, -real- heroes. People facing possible or perhaps even
certain death, to save others.

At some levels of radiation exposure, people get sick before they can
do anything meaningful. I did not do the math, but I believe that the
levels reported are close to that, 1 sievert per hour.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 00:02:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

No problem. They LOVE guns. I was marketing manager for a Japanese machine
tool company (Sodick, although later I had the same job with Wasino), and
one of the things our engineers liked most was when I took them out to the
range and then out for a beer.

In Waikiki, Hawaii there are a bunch of indoor shooting "clubs".
Really these are indoor ranges where you can go and buy some ammo and
rent a machine gun and blast away at targets. They CATER to the
Japanese tourist crowds in Waikiki and seriously don't lack for
business. It's a date place. Young Japanese guys take their
girlfriends there and go blast off some ammo. Not too many American
tourists even go to these places. The majority of customers are
Japanese.
Dave

"Ignoramus11979" wrote in message
...
On 2011-03-16, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Ignoramus11979" wrote in message
...
The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

No problem. They LOVE guns. I was marketing manager for a Japanese
machine
tool company (Sodick, although later I had the same job with Wasino), and
one of the things our engineers liked most was when I took them out to
the
range and then out for a beer.


This is what I am sort of expecting, they are suffering from gun
deprivation.

i

They're so deprived that they actually shoot MATCHLOCKS for fun. That, and
airsoft, are about the only things they're allowed to shoot.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 00:02:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

No problem. They LOVE guns. I was marketing manager for a Japanese machine
tool company (Sodick, although later I had the same job with Wasino), and
one of the things our engineers liked most was when I took them out to the
range and then out for a beer.

In Waikiki, Hawaii there are a bunch of indoor shooting "clubs".
Really these are indoor ranges where you can go and buy some ammo and
rent a machine gun and blast away at targets. They CATER to the
Japanese tourist crowds in Waikiki and seriously don't lack for
business. It's a date place. Young Japanese guys take their
girlfriends there and go blast off some ammo. Not too many American
tourists even go to these places. The majority of customers are
Japanese.
Dave

That doesn't surprise me one bit. Our young engineers loved it.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ignoramus11979" wrote in message
...
The plant is completely abandoned.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

i

And displace 10,000,000 illegal aliens already here????
Art

Ignoramus11979 wrote:

On 2011-03-16, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 3/15/2011 7:52 PM, Ignoramus11979 wrote:

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Well I personally wouldn't want to stick around if things were getting
hot. But I have to say, it makes me think back to Chernobyl, and the men
that braved the dangers to try and stem that disaster. I'm sure not all
of them really understood what the risks where, but equally sure some did.

My guess is they did. They were not stupid.

I agree, the only stupid people involved in Chernobyl were the folks
playing with the reactor who triggered the incident.

On 3/15/2011 7:52 PM, Ignoramus11979 wrote:

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Well I personally wouldn't want to stick around if things were getting
hot. But I have to say, it makes me think back to Chernobyl, and the men
that braved the dangers to try and stem that disaster. I'm sure not all
of them really understood what the risks where, but equally sure some did.


Jon

On 3/15/2011 8:21 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:

That last bunch of 50 in the Japanese plant must be some of the bravest and
most selfless people on earth.

Hard to know what the facts are right now. I'm disappointed they are
bugging out, but if there's really nothing more they can do at the
moment, then sticking around would be just suicide.

Still, heroes all, -real- heroes. People facing possible or perhaps even
certain death, to save others.


Jon

"Ignoramus11979" wrote in message
...
The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

i

Too bad Deming is gone, I wonder what he would think?

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
On 3/15/2011 7:52 PM, Ignoramus11979 wrote:

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''
Well I personally wouldn't want to stick around if things were getting
hot. But I have to say, it makes me think back to Chernobyl, and the men
that braved the dangers to try and stem that disaster. I'm sure not all of
them really understood what the risks where, but equally sure some did.


Jon

That last bunch of 50 in the Japanese plant must be some of the bravest and
most selfless people on earth.



And soon to be as sick as living people can be...


--

Richard Lamb

John R. Carroll wrote:
Ignoramus11979 wrote:
On 2011-03-16, Artemus wrote:
"Ignoramus11979" wrote in
message ...
The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the
facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that
they are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

And displace 10,000,000 illegal aliens already here????

We have a lot of room for hard working people.

The last Japanese soldier to surrender in WWII did so in the Philippines
and the date was March 9, 1974.
What is likely is that they will invent a way to turn their nuclear dross
into gold or something else useful rather than abandon either their nation
or each other.

It's true - while polite to the point of being almost annoying, they are
amazingly resourceful people - they've been living essentially on top of
a volcano for some thousands of years, after all.

Cheers!
Rich

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:52:20 -0500, Ignoramus11979
wrote:

The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

Forget it, Ig. You can't personally afford it, even for 1 night. Oh,
you mean you want the gov't to foot the bill? Hmmm, nogo there. That
would effectively put ten million more mouths on the dole and we're
broke already, in spending deficit, and about fourteen trillion
dollars in debt, and millions are out of jobs and homes now.

--
Small opportunities are often the beginning of great enterprises.
-- Demosthenes

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 23:29:16 -0500, Ignoramus11979
wrote:

On 2011-03-16, Artemus wrote:

"Ignoramus11979" wrote in message
...
The plant is completely abandoned.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

And displace 10,000,000 illegal aliens already here????

We have a lot of room for hard working people.

Your company is not that large to hire them, sir.

--
Small opportunities are often the beginning of great enterprises.
-- Demosthenes

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
John R. Carroll wrote:
Ignoramus11979 wrote:
On 2011-03-16, Artemus wrote:
"Ignoramus11979" wrote in
message ...
The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the
facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that
they are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

And displace 10,000,000 illegal aliens already here????

We have a lot of room for hard working people.

The last Japanese soldier to surrender in WWII did so in the Philippines
and the date was March 9, 1974.
What is likely is that they will invent a way to turn their nuclear dross
into gold or something else useful rather than abandon either their
nation
or each other.

It's true - while polite to the point of being almost annoying, they are
amazingly resourceful people - they've been living essentially on top of
a volcano for some thousands of years, after all.

Cheers!
Rich

Yes. Our unemployed losers would do well to emulate them.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:52:20 -0500, Ignoramus11979
wrote:

The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

i


So, where is our not to worry map?

http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/globalir.html

This is the best one I can find, there must be better ones in the 21st
century. Like maybe color. They have really good stuff at Oshkosh, too
bad we can't see it once in awhile for free. Didn't we pay for it?
Looks to me like southern Canada.


SW

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 07:44:16 -0500, Sunworshipper SW@GWNTUNDRA
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:52:20 -0500, Ignoramus11979
wrote:

The plant is completely abandoned.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

i


So, where is our not to worry map?

http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/globalir.html

This is the best one I can find, there must be better ones in the 21st
century. Like maybe color. They have really good stuff at Oshkosh, too
bad we can't see it once in awhile for free. Didn't we pay for it?
Looks to me like southern Canada.


SW

Surfers

http://www.stormsurf.com/


SW

On 2011-03-16, F George McDuffee wrote:

http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy...to-catch-fire/

Everyone should read that article!

i

Might be time to move some spent fuel from "re-racked" (overstuffed)
pools into dry cask storage at a lot of other plants.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Ignoramus19837 wrote:
On 2011-03-16, F George McDuffee wrote:

http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy...to-catch-fire/

Everyone should read that article!

"firedoglake" is a credible news source? It may be, but not to my
limited knowledge. And the author is a psychiatrist. You gotta' be
careful about what you read. Bob

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 23:29:16 -0500, Ignoramus11979
On 2011-03-16, Artemus wrote:
"Ignoramus11979" wrote in message

The plant is completely abandoned.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the
facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000 Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

And displace 10,000,000 illegal aliens already here????

We have a lot of room for hard working people.

Your company is not that large to hire them, sir.

Yeah - not too long ago, I actually saw a white guy operating a leaf blower
on a lawn crew.

Cheers!
Rich

Ecnerwal wrote:

Might be time to move some spent fuel from "re-racked" (overstuffed)
pools into dry cask storage at a lot of other plants.

We should be reprocessing it into new fuel and high-value isotopes used
in research and medicine, but the NIMBYs seem to be all obsessed with
the "Oh, my God! The TERRORISTS will make BOMBS!" mentality.

Can't they see that that ship has sailed decades ago?

Why don't we ask the US Navy what they're doing with the spent fuel from
the reactors on all those warships and submarines?

For heaven's sakes, let's put the reactors on oceangoing barges - didn't
we learn how to build undersea cables about a century or so ago?

Thanks,
Rich

Oh, come now! You don't expect us to believe that? White guy
on a leaf blower?

The left coast used to have a large population of Japanese
descendants. Sadly, they were "interned" during World War
II. From what I know of history, the Japanese Americans were
a lot less trouble than the illegals we have at present,
from Mexico. We should reconsider the immigration levels and
numbers of Japanese.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...

The plant is completely abandoned.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Radiat...html?x=0&.v=91

``FUKUSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Japan suspended operations
to prevent a
stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday
after a surge in
radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain
at the
facility.''

Anyway, I would personally vote for taking 10,000,000
Japanese here,
demographically representative, as immigrants. The
pluses is that they
are hard working and law abiding and eat relatively
little. The
challenge is that we will need to educate them about
the duty of the
free people to keep and bear arms.

And displace 10,000,000 illegal aliens already here????

We have a lot of room for hard working people.

Your company is not that large to hire them, sir.

Yeah - not too long ago, I actually saw a white guy
operating a leaf blower
on a lawn crew.

Cheers!
Rich

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Ecnerwal wrote:

Might be time to move some spent fuel from "re-racked" (overstuffed)
pools into dry cask storage at a lot of other plants.

We should be reprocessing it into new fuel and high-value isotopes used
in research and medicine, but the NIMBYs seem to be all obsessed with
the "Oh, my God! The TERRORISTS will make BOMBS!" mentality.

Can't they see that that ship has sailed decades ago?

Why don't we ask the US Navy what they're doing with the spent fuel from
the reactors on all those warships and submarines?

They turn it into HLW (liquid waste; mostly unfissioned uranium and
plutonium) and make that into replacement warhead pits or into mox-type fuel
to go back into the reactors. The balance of it is stored in liquid form, in
stainless tanks, on various DOD sites. The plan is to "solidify" this waste
(presumably in glass or ceramic) for deposit in the national waste facility,
should one be found that isn't on top of a geological fault -- like Yucca
Mountain.

HLW is hot stuff. 99% of it in the US comes from defense reactors, and we
have quite a load of it. Our naval reactors are the primary users of
plutonium-loaded fuel for power generation.


For heaven's sakes, let's put the reactors on oceangoing barges - didn't
we learn how to build undersea cables about a century or so ago?

Can you say, "tsunami"? d8-)

--
Ed Huntress


Thanks,
Rich

Ignoramus19837 wrote:
On 2011-03-16, F George wrote:

http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy...to-catch-fire/

Everyone should read that article!

i


What I haven't seen is that when they catch fire it is a Metal fire.
The fire is so hot that it will break down water to grab the oxygen and
release free hydrogen that is where the free hydrogen is coming from
and with all the free hydrogen coming out of the reactors you can be
sure the rods are on fire. The same thing will happen with any metal
fire, Titanium, magnesium, and a bunch of other metals.


John

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Ecnerwal wrote:

Might be time to move some spent fuel from "re-racked" (overstuffed)
pools into dry cask storage at a lot of other plants.

We should be reprocessing it into new fuel and high-value isotopes used
in research and medicine, but the NIMBYs seem to be all obsessed with
the "Oh, my God! The TERRORISTS will make BOMBS!" mentality.

Can't they see that that ship has sailed decades ago?

Why don't we ask the US Navy what they're doing with the spent fuel from
the reactors on all those warships and submarines?

They turn it into HLW (liquid waste; mostly unfissioned uranium and
plutonium) and make that into replacement warhead pits or into mox-type
fuel to go back into the reactors. The balance of it is stored in liquid
form, in stainless tanks, on various DOD sites. The plan is to "solidify"
this waste (presumably in glass or ceramic) for deposit in the national
waste facility, should one be found that isn't on top of a geological
fault -- like Yucca Mountain.

HLW is hot stuff. 99% of it in the US comes from defense reactors, and we
have quite a load of it.

Of the *reported* defense-related waste, in total, we have around 300,000
cubic meters of it. Hoo-HA!

http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/docs/rad...1-snf_hlw.html

snip

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:48:49 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Ignoramus19837 wrote:
On 2011-03-16, F George McDuffee wrote:

http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy...to-catch-fire/

Everyone should read that article!

"firedoglake" is a credible news source? It may be, but not to my
limited knowledge. And the author is a psychiatrist. You gotta' be
careful about what you read. Bob

It appeared to have the identical info as the blog site. Hmmm...

--
Small opportunities are often the beginning of great enterprises.
-- Demosthenes

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:26:32 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Ecnerwal wrote:

Might be time to move some spent fuel from "re-racked" (overstuffed)
pools into dry cask storage at a lot of other plants.

We should be reprocessing it into new fuel and high-value isotopes used
in research and medicine, but the NIMBYs seem to be all obsessed with
the "Oh, my God! The TERRORISTS will make BOMBS!" mentality.

Can't they see that that ship has sailed decades ago?

Why don't we ask the US Navy what they're doing with the spent fuel from
the reactors on all those warships and submarines?

They turn it into HLW (liquid waste; mostly unfissioned uranium and
plutonium) and make that into replacement warhead pits or into mox-type fuel
to go back into the reactors. The balance of it is stored in liquid form, in
stainless tanks, on various DOD sites. The plan is to "solidify" this waste
(presumably in glass or ceramic) for deposit in the national waste facility,
should one be found that isn't on top of a geological fault -- like Yucca
Mountain.
Why trash a valuable resource and concentrated source of
energy?

HLW is hot stuff. 99% of it in the US comes from defense reactors, and we
have quite a load of it. Our naval reactors are the primary users of
plutonium-loaded fuel for power generation.

One of the huge advantages of a molten salt thorium reactor
is that it can use much of the current nuclear waste and
plutonium as fuel, and much of the thorium cycle waste can
be [re] processed on site with a little planning and
investment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor
http://energyfromthorium.com/essay3rs/
{see section on how a fuel rod with 98% of its fissile
material can be "spent."}
snip
Thorium and the fluoride reactor present an entirely
different approach to fuel management that makes repeated
recycling not only easy but economically advantageous. That
is because nuclear fuel in the liquid fluoride form rather
than in the solid oxide form has distinct advantages. It is
already in a chemically stable form as a fluoride. There is
no reagent to treat the fuel that will be favored over its
current state. Thus it is protected from chemical attack,
combustion, burning, or corrosion. But more importantly, as
a fluid is it in a form where chemical processes can be
employed directly to remove fission products or to add new
fuel to compensate for burnup. Additionally, the ionic
nature of liquid-fluoride salt renders the fuel essentially
impervious to radiation damage. Despite the passage of large
amounts of gamma radiation, neutron radiation, alpha
radiation, etc. the fuel remains chemically unaltered and
with a complete retention of its physical properties.

Gaseous fission products, including the important fission
product poison xenon-135, are effortlessly easy to remove
from liquid-fluoride salt. They simply come out of solution
in the pump bowl during the pumping of the fluid through the
loop. This has the additional benefit of keeping pressures
low and allowing the reactor to change power states rapidly
without concern for the effect of xenon on power changes.
snip

==It is well to remember that a typical "spent" fuel rod
has in reality used up only about 2% of the fissile material
[energy] it contains, thus simply storing or discarding this
material is throwing away 98% of the energy and the
investment in mining/refining the uranium.==


For heaven's sakes, let's put the reactors on oceangoing barges - didn't
we learn how to build undersea cables about a century or so ago?

Hard to do if you are inland. Another suggestion is to site
these far underground or deep inside a mountain high enough
up to be above any possible flood or tsunami.

Can you say, "tsunami"? d8-)

AFAIK one of the safer places to be in a tsunami is in deep
water as the "tidal wave" is barely noticeable as it sweeps
by. Its when these reach shallow water that the wave rears
up. Thus if the power barges were say 10 miles off shore in
reasonably deep water no problem and no problem with cooling
water either. Another product could be desalted sea water
to help keep the reactor power output level, [simply run a
pipe line beside the power cables] and the brine that is
generated should also have some commercial value.


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

For those of you who have been educated and trained in the conventional wisdom
of reactor behavior, you are in for a real surprise, and perhaps a shock or two.

http://www.pipeline.com/~rstater/nuke1.html

Chronological listing:
http://www.pipeline.com/~rstater/nuke1chron.html

Long and detailed pdf of power point presentation on
thorium/uranium reactor history. 98 pages with lots of
graphics so no dial-ups.

FWIW -- the thorium reactor was originally developed for the
atomic powered bomber.

http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/...oogle_LFTR.pdf


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

Some long reads for those who may be interested...

Documentation Army's SL-1 Reactor project (that worked a little TOO well)
Periodical List:
http://www.atomicinsights.com/AEI_period.html


The Article Files:
http://www.atomicinsights.com/AEI_Article.html


Also interesting...

The Myth of a Reactor Explosion:
http://library.thinkquest.org/17940/...disasters.html

It is impossible for any PWR or LWR nuclear reactor to explode like an atomic
bomb. This is because in order for an uncontrolled chain reaction to occur that
is similar to an atom bomb, the uranium fuel must be extremely enriched, much
more than the 4% 235U that is present in regular, commercial nuclear reactor
fuel. So, if it can't explode, what does happen in a nuclear reactor? The answer
is what is called a meltdown. When a meltdown occurs in a reactor, the reactor
"melts". That is, the temperature rises in the core so much that the fuel rods
actually turn to liquid, like ice turns into water when heated. If the core
continued to heat, the reactor would get so hot that the steel walls of the core
would also melt.

_In a complete reactor meltdown, the extremely hot (about 2700� Celsius)
molten uranium fuel rods would melt through the bottom of the reactor and
actually sink about 50 feet into the earth beneath the power plant. The molten
uranium would react with groundwater, producing large explosions of radioactive
steam and debris that would affect nearby towns and population centers._

In general a nuclear meltdown would occur if the reactor loses its coolant. This
is what occurred in the two disasters that we will discuss. Without coolant, the
core's temperature would rise, resulting in the meltdown scenario we explained
above.

You may be wondering, "Why can't they just drop the control rods in the reactor
if it starts to get out of control?". The answer is that they can. The problem
is that, even if the control rods are completely dropped in and the nuclear
chain reaction stops, the reactor is still extremely hot and will not cool down
unless coolant is put back in. The residual heat and the heat produced from the
decay of the fission products are enough to drive the core's temperature up even
if the nuclear chain reaction stops.


Three Mile Island:

On an island 10 miles from Harrisburg Pennsylvania resides the Three Mile Island
Nuclear Power Station. There are two reactors at the plant, dubbed Unit 1 and
Unit 2. One of them is inoperable. Unit 2 experienced a partial reactor meltdown
on March 28, 1979. A partial nuclear meltdown is when the uranium fuel rods
start to liquefy, but they do not fall through the reactor floor and breach the
containment systems. The accident which occurred at Unit 2 is considered to be
the worst nuclear disaster in US history. Why did it happen? There are many
reasons for the accident, but the two main ones are simple human error and the
failure of a rather minor valve in the reactor. In the following paragraphs, we
will explain how it was possible for the accident to happen and both its
psychological and physical effects on the American people.

The accident at TMI (Three Mile Island) began at about four in the morning with
the failure of one of the valves that controlled coolant flow into the reactor.
Because of this, the amount of cool water entering the reactor decreased, and
the core temperature rose. When this happened, automatic computerized systems
engaged, and the reactor was automatically SCRAMmed. The nuclear chain reaction
then stopped. This only slowed the rate at which the core temperature was
increasing, however. The temperature was still rising because of residual heat
in the reactor and energy released from the decaying fission products in the
fuel rods.

Because the pumps removing water from the core were still active, and a valve
that controlled the cool water entering the core failed, water was leaving the
core, but not coming in. This reduced the amount of coolant in the core. There
wasn't enough coolant in the core, so the Emergency Core Cooling System
automatically turned on. This should have provided enough extra coolant to make
up for the stuck valve, except that the reactor operator, thinking that enough
coolant was already in the core, shut it off too early.

There still wasn't enough coolant, so the core's temperature kept increasing. A
valve at the top of the core automatically opened to vent some of the steam in
the core. This should have helped matters by removing the hot steam, but the
valve didn't close properly. Because it didn't close, steam continued to vent
from the reactor, further reducing the coolant level. The reactor operators
should have known the valve didn't close, but the indicator in the control room
was covered by a maintenance tag attached to a nearby switch. Because the
operators didn't know that the valve had failed to close, they assumed that the
situation was under control, as the core temperature had stopped rising with the
first venting of steam from the core. They also thought that the coolant had
been replaced in the core, because they didn't know that the pump outlets were
closed. A few minutes later the core temperature began to rise again, and the
Emergency Core Cooling System automatically switched on. Once again, an operator
de-activated it, thinking the situation was under control. In reality, it was not.

Soon, because of the coolant lost through the open valve at the top of the
reactor, the core temperature began to rise again. At this point the fuel rods
started to collapse from the intense heat inside the core. The operators knew
something was wrong, but didn't understand what it was. This was about 5 minutes
after the initial valve failure. It took almost 2 hours for someone to figure
out that the valve releasing steam at the top of reactor hadn't closed properly.
During those 2 hours, precious coolant continued to be released from the reactor
a meltdown was underway. At approximately 6AM, an operator discovered the valve
at the top of the core was open and closed it.

During the day hydrogen gas began to accumulate inside the reactor and caused an
explosion later in the afternoon. This explosion did not damage the containment
systems, however. Two days later, the core was still not under operator control.
A group of nuclear experts were asked to help evaluate the situation. They
figured out that a lot of hydrogen gas had accumulated at the top of the core.
This gas could have exploded, like the explosion on the first day of the
accident, or it could have displaced the remaining coolant in the reactor,
causing a complete nuclear reactor meltdown. No one really knew what to do about
the hydrogen build-up. A hydrogen recombiner was used to remove some of the
hydrogen, but it was not very effective. However, hydrogen also dissolves in
water, which is what the coolant was composed of. Thus, over time the hydrogen
that had collected at the top of the core completely dissolved in the coolant.
Two weeks later the reactor was brought to a cold shutdown and the accident was
over.

No one was directly injured as a result of the accident. However, some
radioactive gas and water were vented to the environment around the reactor. At
one point, radioactive water was released into the Susquehanna river, which is a
source of drinking water for nearby communities. No one is really sure what
effects these radioactive releases might have had on people living near the
power plant.



Chernobyl:

About 80 miles (130 km) north of Kiev, in what is now the Ukraine, is located
the Chernobyl nuclear power plant. At this plant the worst reactor disaster to
ever occur took place on April 26, 1986. It happened largely because normal
reactor operations were suspended; an experiment was to take place in the
reactor. As a result, normal safety guidelines were disregarded, and the
accident occurred. However, as with most accidents of this type, it was a result
of many small mistakes adding up to create a catastrophe. In the following
paragraphs, we will outline just how the event transpired:

Early in the day, before the test, the power output of the reactor was dropped
in preparation for the upcoming test. Unexpectedly, the reactor's power output
dropped way too much, almost to zero. Because of this drop, some control rods
were removed to bring the power back up. (As you recall from the fission power
text, the more control rods there are in a reactor, the more free neutrons are
absorbed and the less fissioning that goes on. So, more control rods means less
energy and power output.) The reactor's power output raised up, and all appeared
to be normal.

More preparation for the test began later when two pumps were switched on in the
cooling system. They increased water flow out of the reactor, and thus removed
heat more quickly. They also caused the water level to lower in a component of
the reactor called the steam separator. Because of the low level of water in the
steam separator, the operator increased the amount of feed water coming into it,
in the hopes that the water level would rise. Also, more control rods were taken
out of the reactor to raise internal reactor temperature and pressure, also in
the hopes that it would cause the water level in the steam separator to rise.
The water level in the steam separator began to rise, so the operator adjusted
again the flow of feed water by lowering it. This decreased the amount of heat
being removed from the reactor core.

Because many control rods had been removed and the amount of heat being taken
from the core by the coolant had been reduced, it began to get very hot. Also,
there was relatively low pressure in the core because the amount of incoming
water had been decreased. Because of the heat and the low pressure, coolant
inside the core began to boil to form steam.

The actual test began with the closing of the turbine feed valves. This should
have caused an increase in pressure in the cooling system, which in turn would
have caused a decrease in steam in the core. This should have lowered the
reactivity in the core. Thus, the normal next step when closing the turbine feed
valves was to retract more control rods, increasing reactivity in the core. This
is what the operator at Chernobyl did. The only problem was that in this case
there was no increase in pressure in the cooling system because of the earlier
feed water reduction. This meant that there was already a normal amount of steam
in the core, even with the turbine feed valves closed. Thus, by retracting more
control rods to make up for a reduction in steam that didn't happen, the
operator caused too much steam to be produced in the core.

With the surplus of steam, the reactor's power output increased. Soon, even more
steam was being produced. The operator realized there was a problem and SCRAMmed
the reactor, completely disabling all fission reactions. However, it was too
late. The temperature and pressure inside the reactor had already risen
dramatically, and the fuel rods had begun to shatter.

After the fuel rods shattered, two explosions occurred as a result of liquid
uranium reacting with steam and from fuel vapor expansion (caused by the intense
heat). The reactor containment was broken, and the top of the reactor lifted
off. With the containment broken, outside air began to enter the reactor. In
this particular Soviet reactor, graphite was used as a moderator instead of
water. (water was the coolant) As air entered the core, it reacted with the
graphite. Graphite is essentially just carbon, so oxygen from the air chemically
combined with the carbon to form CO (carbon monoxide). Carbon monoxide is
flammable and soon caught fire. The fire emitted extremely radioactive smoke
into the area surrounding the reactor. Additionally, the explosion ejected a
portion of the reactor fuel into the surrounding atmosphere and countryside.
This fuel contained both fission products and transuranic wastes.

During the days following the accident, hundreds of people worked to quell the
reactor fire and the escape of radioactive materials. Liquid nitrogen was pumped
into the reactor core to cool it down. Helicopters dumped neutron-absorbing
materials into the exposed core to prevent it from going critical. Sand and
other fire-fighting materials were also dropped into the core to help stop the
graphite fire. All in all, over 5000(metric) tons of material were dropped into
the core. After the fires were brought under control, construction of what is
called "the sarcophagus" began. The word "sarcophagus" is usually used to
describe the elaborate coffins the ancient Egyptians used to entomb their dead.
In this case, the sarcophagus is a structure erected from about 300,000 metric
tons of concrete that surrounds the reactor. It was designed to contain the
radioactive waste inside. It has served its purpose well, but, now, ten years
after the accident, several flaws have been found in it. Holes have begun to
appear in the roof, allowing rainwater to accumulate inside. This water can
corrode the structure, further weakening it. Also, birds and other animals have
been seen making homes in the sarcophagus. If they should ingest radioactive
material, they could spread it around the countryside. Additionally, with time
the sarcophagus has become worn down. It is conceivable that an intense event
like an earthquake, tornado, or plane crash directly on the sarcophagus could
lead to its collapse. This would be catastrophic, as radioactive dust would once
again rain down on the surrounding areas. Scientists and engineers are working
on ways to repair or replace the structure.

One of the great tragedies of the accident was that the Soviet government tried
to cover it up. Clouds of fallout were traveling towards major population
centers such as Minsk, and no one was warned. No one outside the Soviet Union
knew about the accident until two days later, when scientists in Sweden detected
massive amount of radiation being blown from the east.

The effects of the disaster at Chernobyl were very widespread. The World Health
Organization (WHO) found that the radiation release from the Chernobyl accident
was 200 times that of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombs combined. The
fallout was also far-reaching. For a time, radiation levels in a Scotland were
10,000 times the norm. 30 lives were directly lost during the accident or within
a few months after it. Many of these lives were those of the workers trying to
put out the graphite fire and were lost from radiation poisoning. The radiation
released has also had long-term effects on the cancer incidence rate of the
surrounding population. According to the Ukrainian Radiological Institute over
2500 deaths resulted from the Chernobyl incident. The WHO has found a
significant increase in cancer in the surrounding area. For example, in 1986
(the year of the accident), 2 cases of childhood thyroid cancer occurred in the
Gomel administrative district of the Ukraine (this is the region around the
plant). In 1993 there were 42 cases, which is 21 times the rate in 1986. The
rate of thyroid cancer is particularly high after the Chernobyl accident because
much of the radiation was emitted in the form iodine-131, which collects in the
thyroid gland, especially in young children. Other cancer incidence rates didn't
seem to be affected. For example, leukemia was no more prevalent after the
accident than before.

What caused the accident? This is a very hard question to answer. The obvious
one is operator error. The operator was not very familiar with the reactor and
hadn't been trained enough. Additionally, when the accident occurred, normal
safety rules were not being followed because they were running a test. For
example, regulations required that at least 15 control rods always remain in the
reactor. When the explosion occurred, less than 10 were present. This happened
because many of the rods were removed to raise power output. This was one of the
direct causes of the accident. Also, the reactor itself was not designed well
and was prone to abrupt and massive power surges.

A few more historical accidents.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ne/nucacc.html

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Rich Grise" wrote in message

For heaven's sakes, let's put the reactors on oceangoing barges - didn't
we learn how to build undersea cables about a century or so ago?

Can you say, "tsunami"? d8-)

Yeah, that's why it makes sense to put them out on the high seas. When
we got the tsunami warnings, the boats that put out to see simply rode
it out - it's just a big, fast, longwave wave until it hits shore and
starts to break. On the open ocean, they're almost imperceptible:
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/T...n_tsunami.html

Hope This Helps!
Rich

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Rich Grise" wrote in message

For heaven's sakes, let's put the reactors on oceangoing barges - didn't
we learn how to build undersea cables about a century or so ago?

Can you say, "tsunami"? d8-)

Yeah, that's why it makes sense to put them out on the high seas. When
we got the tsunami warnings, the boats that put out to see simply rode
it out - it's just a big, fast, longwave wave until it hits shore and
starts to break. On the open ocean, they're almost imperceptible:
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/T...n_tsunami.html

Hope This Helps!
Rich

Ok. "Oceangoing barges" sound like a possibility -- well out in the ocean.
Around here, the edge of the mid-Atlantic Continental Shelf it pretty far
out, and the waters of the shelf are pretty shallow. I don't know *how*
shallow they have to be to build up those big waves.

--
Ed Huntress