Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl

On 12/27/2010 7:55 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl


Drawing and machining a prototype lower was one of the first major
projects I had in Solidworks. I've always wanted to go back and redraw
it because I know there are better ways to get-er-done now. We started
out with a solid block of material. iirc it was at least 12 ops to get
it all done. Well, almost all done.. had to leave a couple holes out
since the ATF wasn't here to serialize it.

On 12/27/2010 8:16 AM, tnik wrote:
On 12/27/2010 7:55 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl


Drawing and machining a prototype lower was one of the first major
projects I had in Solidworks. I've always wanted to go back and redraw
it because I know there are better ways to get-er-done now. We started
out with a solid block of material. iirc it was at least 12 ops to get
it all done. Well, almost all done.. had to leave a couple holes out
since the ATF wasn't here to serialize it.

Here's a pic of the model..

http://picasaweb.google.com/KortJest...54623707171330

On 2010-12-27, Karl Townsend wrote:
Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl, just curious what are you trying to accomplish, build a
particularly accurate or otherwise high performing rifle, or just make
something that is legal and does not require a 4473?

i

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 07:55:04 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl

As I understand it you can make one, but it is yours forever. You may
not legally sell it to anyone, ever. Cannot even be passed on to your
son/daughter. Or am I wrong?

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

On 2010-12-27, Randy wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 07:55:04 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl

As I understand it you can make one, but it is yours forever. You may
not legally sell it to anyone, ever. Cannot even be passed on to your
son/daughter. Or am I wrong?

I thought that the above is exactly correct.

i

Ignoramus7943 wrote:

On 2010-12-27, Randy wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 07:55:04 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl

As I understand it you can make one, but it is yours forever. You may
not legally sell it to anyone, ever. Cannot even be passed on to your
son/daughter. Or am I wrong?

I thought that the above is exactly correct.

i

I believe that is incorrect.

From the research I've done so far, it appears that you can build your
own firearms that are consistent with those you could legally purchase
at your local gun shop, are not required to put serial numbers on them
(though it's recommended), and can indeed sell or transfer them with
normal paperwork *occasionally*. If you were to sell or transfer too
often your transfer paperwork would be rejected and you'd be told to get
a manufacturer's license.

It is different if you want to produce an NFA firearm, which while the
paperwork still refers to "firearm" generically, excludes "normal"
firearms and only covers short barrel rifles, silencers and other
specific NFA arms. Even those can be transferred with more restrictions.

Of course if you plan to start one of these projects, you should do your
own research to both verify that information as well as be sure you
understand every quirk of the related laws and paperwork. Also if you
plan any of these projects you need to check local/state laws and
perhaps move to a more favorable state (hint Iggy).

"Pete C." wrote in news:4d18ae6c$0$15842
:


Ignoramus7943 wrote:

On 2010-12-27, Randy wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 07:55:04 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl

As I understand it you can make one, but it is yours forever. You
may
not legally sell it to anyone, ever. Cannot even be passed on to
your
son/daughter. Or am I wrong?

I thought that the above is exactly correct.

i

I believe that is incorrect.

From the research I've done so far, it appears that you can build your
own firearms that are consistent with those you could legally purchase
at your local gun shop, are not required to put serial numbers on them
(though it's recommended), and can indeed sell or transfer them with
normal paperwork *occasionally*. If you were to sell or transfer too
often your transfer paperwork would be rejected and you'd be told to
get
a manufacturer's license.

It is different if you want to produce an NFA firearm, which while the
paperwork still refers to "firearm" generically, excludes "normal"
firearms and only covers short barrel rifles, silencers and other
specific NFA arms. Even those can be transferred with more
restrictions.

Of course if you plan to start one of these projects, you should do
your
own research to both verify that information as well as be sure you
understand every quirk of the related laws and paperwork. Also if you
plan any of these projects you need to check local/state laws and
perhaps move to a more favorable state (hint Iggy).

My understanding is that the BATF has gotten extra cranky in recent
years. There are cases where they have nailed gunsmiths for restoring
old/dmamged firearms because they crossed some imaginary threshold of how
much can be original, and how much can be replaced before it is
considered "manufacturing". Presumably, these problems were for single
firearms, but they were also being sold, or at least the work was done
for someone else. I belong to the American Gunsmithing Association, and
their latest magazine had a warning in it to someone who was attempting
what sounded like a simple restoration job.

Doug White

Doug White wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in news:4d18ae6c$0$15842
:


Ignoramus7943 wrote:

On 2010-12-27, Randy wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 07:55:04 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl

As I understand it you can make one, but it is yours forever. You
may
not legally sell it to anyone, ever. Cannot even be passed on to
your
son/daughter. Or am I wrong?

I thought that the above is exactly correct.

i

I believe that is incorrect.

From the research I've done so far, it appears that you can build your
own firearms that are consistent with those you could legally purchase
at your local gun shop, are not required to put serial numbers on them
(though it's recommended), and can indeed sell or transfer them with
normal paperwork *occasionally*. If you were to sell or transfer too
often your transfer paperwork would be rejected and you'd be told to
get
a manufacturer's license.

It is different if you want to produce an NFA firearm, which while the
paperwork still refers to "firearm" generically, excludes "normal"
firearms and only covers short barrel rifles, silencers and other
specific NFA arms. Even those can be transferred with more
restrictions.

Of course if you plan to start one of these projects, you should do
your
own research to both verify that information as well as be sure you
understand every quirk of the related laws and paperwork. Also if you
plan any of these projects you need to check local/state laws and
perhaps move to a more favorable state (hint Iggy).

My understanding is that the BATF has gotten extra cranky in recent
years. There are cases where they have nailed gunsmiths for restoring
old/dmamged firearms because they crossed some imaginary threshold of how
much can be original, and how much can be replaced before it is
considered "manufacturing". Presumably, these problems were for single
firearms, but they were also being sold, or at least the work was done
for someone else. I belong to the American Gunsmithing Association, and
their latest magazine had a warning in it to someone who was attempting
what sounded like a simple restoration job.

Doug White

Yes, I believe there is a pretty solid line between doing gunsmithing as
a business and manufacturing a firearm, and building your own firearm
personally and then at some later date selling or otherwise transferring
it, perhaps to fund your next project.

On 2010-12-27, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus7943 wrote:

On 2010-12-27, Randy wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 07:55:04 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl

As I understand it you can make one, but it is yours forever. You may
not legally sell it to anyone, ever. Cannot even be passed on to your
son/daughter. Or am I wrong?

I thought that the above is exactly correct.

i

I believe that is incorrect.

From the research I've done so far, it appears that you can build your
own firearms that are consistent with those you could legally purchase
at your local gun shop, are not required to put serial numbers on them
(though it's recommended), and can indeed sell or transfer them with
normal paperwork *occasionally*. If you were to sell or transfer too
often your transfer paperwork would be rejected and you'd be told to get
a manufacturer's license.

It is different if you want to produce an NFA firearm, which while the
paperwork still refers to "firearm" generically, excludes "normal"
firearms and only covers short barrel rifles, silencers and other
specific NFA arms. Even those can be transferred with more restrictions.

Of course if you plan to start one of these projects, you should do your
own research to both verify that information as well as be sure you
understand every quirk of the related laws and paperwork. Also if you
plan any of these projects you need to check local/state laws and
perhaps move to a more favorable state (hint Iggy).

Illinois is not as gun friendly as Texas, but the laws concerning
homemade firearms are probably quite similar (mostly federal law that
applies).

I would personally like to know whether a homemade gun can ever be
transferred, which I thought was not the case. You may be right if
this thread is to be believed:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=408046


i

"Pete C." wrote in
ster.com:


Doug White wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in news:4d18ae6c$0$15842
:


Ignoramus7943 wrote:

On 2010-12-27, Randy wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 07:55:04 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for
the duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy
project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this?
Any heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan
on building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl

As I understand it you can make one, but it is yours forever.
You
may
not legally sell it to anyone, ever. Cannot even be passed on
to
your
son/daughter. Or am I wrong?

I thought that the above is exactly correct.

i

I believe that is incorrect.

From the research I've done so far, it appears that you can build
your own firearms that are consistent with those you could legally
purchase at your local gun shop, are not required to put serial
numbers on them (though it's recommended), and can indeed sell or
transfer them with normal paperwork *occasionally*. If you were to
sell or transfer too often your transfer paperwork would be
rejected and you'd be told to
get
a manufacturer's license.

It is different if you want to produce an NFA firearm, which while
the paperwork still refers to "firearm" generically, excludes
"normal" firearms and only covers short barrel rifles, silencers
and other specific NFA arms. Even those can be transferred with
more
restrictions.

Of course if you plan to start one of these projects, you should do
your
own research to both verify that information as well as be sure you
understand every quirk of the related laws and paperwork. Also if
you plan any of these projects you need to check local/state laws
and perhaps move to a more favorable state (hint Iggy).

My understanding is that the BATF has gotten extra cranky in recent
years. There are cases where they have nailed gunsmiths for
restoring old/dmamged firearms because they crossed some imaginary
threshold of how much can be original, and how much can be replaced
before it is considered "manufacturing". Presumably, these problems
were for single firearms, but they were also being sold, or at least
the work was done for someone else. I belong to the American
Gunsmithing Association, and their latest magazine had a warning in
it to someone who was attempting what sounded like a simple
restoration job.

Doug White

Yes, I believe there is a pretty solid line between doing gunsmithing
as a business and manufacturing a firearm, and building your own
firearm personally and then at some later date selling or otherwise
transferring it, perhaps to fund your next project.

I think the difficulty is that the line is not "solid". It is open to
interpretation of the BATFE agent who decides to make your life
miserable. I'm sure there are plenty of agents who are decent hard
working folks trying to stopp the bad guys. There are also plenty of
cases where agents have decided to make a name for themselves by going
after someone when common sense would say the case was totally bogus.
The resulting legal hassles (or worse) can ruin your day/month/year/life.

Doug White

On 12/27/2010 7:16 AM, tnik wrote:
On 12/27/2010 7:55 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl


Drawing and machining a prototype lower was one of the first major
projects I had in Solidworks. I've always wanted to go back and redraw
it because I know there are better ways to get-er-done now. We started
out with a solid block of material. iirc it was at least 12 ops to get
it all done. Well, almost all done.. had to leave a couple holes out
since the ATF wasn't here to serialize it.

Any special reason you left the bottom of the mag well parallel to the
top? Some current mags wouldn't fit.

ATF doesn't need to serialize it nor do you if you're building it for
your own use. You can't sell, give away or otherwise transfer it unless
you have a manufacturer's license, which is when the serial number
becomes necessary, which the manufacturer does, not the ATF.

David

On 12/27/2010 11:34 AM, David R. Birch wrote:
On 12/27/2010 7:16 AM, tnik wrote:
On 12/27/2010 7:55 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Record cold and snow in MN. I'll soon be locked in the shop for the
duration of winter and been casting about for a worthy project.

I came accross this:
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Is this a good forging to start with? Anybody else done this? Any
heads up for problems? Any fixturing suggestions? I'll plan on
building quality fixtures to knock 'em out on the CNC mill.

Karl


Drawing and machining a prototype lower was one of the first major
projects I had in Solidworks. I've always wanted to go back and redraw
it because I know there are better ways to get-er-done now. We started
out with a solid block of material. iirc it was at least 12 ops to get
it all done. Well, almost all done.. had to leave a couple holes out
since the ATF wasn't here to serialize it.

Any special reason you left the bottom of the mag well parallel to the
top? Some current mags wouldn't fit.

That was the way the customer wanted it. I had to reverse engineer one
that he brought us. I was lucky enough to find a dxf of an AR-15 so I
could get the proper hole placements and tolerances.


ATF doesn't need to serialize it nor do you if you're building it for
your own use. You can't sell, give away or otherwise transfer it unless
you have a manufacturer's license, which is when the serial number
becomes necessary, which the manufacturer does, not the ATF.

David




Exactly, this was an actual job we were looking at getting so if we went
into production of the parts (iirc) an ATF agent (or someone that could
do it) would have needed to be present during the final operation and
serialization.

In article ,
says..

As I understand it you can make one, but it is yours forever. You may
not legally sell it to anyone, ever. Cannot even be passed on to your
son/daughter. Or am I wrong?


From the BATF. This does not address the inheritance issue, but perhaps
the cited regulations touch on it:


Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee
provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from
possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a
non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported
parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment
and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be
approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is
being made for a Federal or State agency.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and
479.105]



--
DT

On Dec 27, 1:14*pm, DT wrote:
In article ,
says..

As I understand it you can make one, but it is yours forever. *You may
not legally sell it to anyone, ever. *Cannot even be passed on to your
son/daughter. * Or am I wrong?

From the BATF. This does not address the inheritance issue, but perhaps
the cited regulations touch on it:

Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?

* * With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee
provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from
possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a
non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported
parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment
and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be
approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is
being made for a Federal or State agency.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and
479.105]

This is normally interpreted as meaning you can build a firearm for
personal use as long as you do not build it to sell. If things change
later on, you could legally sell it or give it away, or pass it to
your heirs. The fine line is whether you build it with intent to sell
(or otherwise transfer) from the start. To me that means you can't
even machine an extra lower for your son, but you could make one for
yourself, then later give it to your son. How much later might be the
make or break.

I have several of those blank forgings. All I need is time and
talent

I have several of those blank forgings. All I need is time and
talent

I talked this project over with my son. He's concerned that the
forgings will vary a lot in size making fixturing hard/impossible.
Have you taken measurements on yours?

Karl

Karl, just curious what are you trying to accomplish, build a
particularly accurate or otherwise high performing rifle, or just make
something that is legal and does not require a 4473?

No particular reason. I just need a challenge. Saying, "I made it
myself" gives a bit of pride. certainly not doing this to save $.

Karl

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:04:37 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i
I had not seen this site, thanks.

You have a valid point, but you lose so much rigidity that your
machining speeds would be killed.

Most parts are manufactured with a real eye on fixturing. That is ways
to quickly remount the part for the next operation. With a good
fixture design, you can go from one op to the next in a few seconds.
















I had not seen this website, thanks for the link.

"David R. Birch" wrote:

ATF doesn't need to serialize it nor do you if you're building it for
your own use. You can't sell, give away or otherwise transfer it unless
you have a manufacturer's license, which is when the serial number
becomes necessary, which the manufacturer does, not the ATF.

So what happens when you die?

Wes

--


Beware speaking with a sharp tongue as you are apt to cut your own throat.

On 2010-12-28, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:04:37 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i
I had not seen this site, thanks.

You have a valid point, but you lose so much rigidity that your
machining speeds would be killed.

Most parts are manufactured with a real eye on fixturing. That is ways
to quickly remount the part for the next operation. With a good
fixture design, you can go from one op to the next in a few seconds.

I had not seen this website, thanks for the link.

Well, yes, but when I am making a one off receiver, I do not care as
much about machining time, as about how much time would it take me to
make one off fixtures, reclamp everything, touch off the tools, align
etc.

So, if it would take me 5 hours of machining time to make a receiver,
but only one personal hour, it is a better deal than 30 minutes of
machining, but 3 hours of making custom fixtures and clamping and
reclamping and dealing with mistakes.

Anyway, I admire your plan and am looking forward to seeing how you
make that receiver. I am getting an itch to make something like that
as well.

i
Not speaking from any actual knowledge, of course.

Wes wrote:

"David R. Birch" wrote:

ATF doesn't need to serialize it nor do you if you're building it for
your own use. You can't sell, give away or otherwise transfer it unless
you have a manufacturer's license, which is when the serial number
becomes necessary, which the manufacturer does, not the ATF.

So what happens when you die?

Whoever inherits it needs to do the paperwork for an NFA firearm.
Remember this applies to NFA firearms, not to "ordinary" firearms.

The paperwork is confusing since it generically refers to "firearm" in
the title, however further into the forms they specifically refer to NFA
firearms only. Look at ATF form 1 which is titled "Application to Make
and Register a Firearm", but further down on the instruction page it
specifically refers to NFA firearms only. It also has "Estate
Procedures: For procedures regarding the transfer of firearms in an
estate resulting from the death of the registrant identified in item 3,
the executor should contact the NFA Branch, Bureau of the ATF...". You
can download the forms from the BATFE site.

Karl Townsend wrote:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:04:37 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i
I had not seen this site, thanks.

You have a valid point, but you lose so much rigidity that your
machining speeds would be killed.

Most parts are manufactured with a real eye on fixturing. That is ways
to quickly remount the part for the next operation. With a good
fixture design, you can go from one op to the next in a few seconds.

I had not seen this website, thanks for the link.

Production fixtures would probably use hydraulic clamping, and be able
to flip the part around and reclamp in a matter of seconds and/or use
palletized fixtures holding a number of the parts at a time for quick
changes in the machine and off-line reclamping.

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:04:37 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could
be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i
I had not seen this site, thanks.

You have a valid point, but you lose so much rigidity that your
machining speeds would be killed.

Most parts are manufactured with a real eye on fixturing. That is ways
to quickly remount the part for the next operation. With a good
fixture design, you can go from one op to the next in a few seconds.

I had not seen this website, thanks for the link.

I have prints for various fixtures, do you want me to root them out? I had
wanted to do what you're contemplating but my mill is stuffed for the next
year. The company's projects are piled up, I have a machinist working 'till
9:00 PM every night...no room for personal stuff.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 08:46:35 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:04:37 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i
I had not seen this site, thanks.

You have a valid point, but you lose so much rigidity that your
machining speeds would be killed.

Most parts are manufactured with a real eye on fixturing. That is ways
to quickly remount the part for the next operation. With a good
fixture design, you can go from one op to the next in a few seconds.

I had not seen this website, thanks for the link.

Production fixtures would probably use hydraulic clamping, and be able
to flip the part around and reclamp in a matter of seconds and/or use
palletized fixtures holding a number of the parts at a time for quick
changes in the machine and off-line reclamping.

For the low volume us HSM types do, you can't beat 1/2" socket head
cap screws holding a part in a custom pocket. Use an impact wrench to
change parts in a few seconds. Often one screw will do. Two will hold
dang near anything. Another great device is a toggle clamp

Karl

On Dec 28, 7:43*am, "Pete C." wrote:
Wes wrote:

"David R. Birch" wrote:

ATF doesn't need to serialize it nor do you if you're building it for
your own use. You can't sell, give away or otherwise transfer it unless
you have a manufacturer's license, which is when the serial number
becomes necessary, which the manufacturer does, not the ATF.

So what happens when you die?

Whoever inherits it needs to do the paperwork for an NFA firearm.
Remember this applies to NFA firearms, not to "ordinary" firearms.

The paperwork is confusing since it generically refers to "firearm" in
the title, however further into the forms they specifically refer to NFA
firearms only. Look at ATF form 1 which is titled "Application to Make
and Register a Firearm", but further down on the instruction page it
specifically refers to NFA firearms only. It also has "Estate
Procedures: For procedures regarding the transfer of firearms in an
estate resulting from the death of the registrant identified in item 3,
the executor should contact the NFA Branch, Bureau of the ATF...". You
can download the forms from the BATFE site.


Bzzt-WRONG ANSWER. It is NOT an NFA firearm unless it's full-auto or
shorter than legal length(26") or has a short barrel(16" for a
rifle). Full-auto creation is prohibited as of 1986 for mere mortals,
you have to have the special ATF permit to do that or you go to jail,
do not pass go. No new full-autos for civilians. You CAN sell your
semi-auto creation, just don't make a habit of it. ATF regs are fuzzy
in this area, if they recover a number of home-made guns that can be
traced back to you, you WILL stand a good chance of seeing the inside
of the crossbar hotel. If it's sold, you should put a name and a
serial on the thing, ATF has the requirements for marking on their
website as far as depth and size of lettering. State and local laws
vary, but federally, it's legal to make your own pistol, rifle or
shotgun with no other paperwork. ATF doesn't even have to know about
it.

As far as the OP's desire to make an AR lower, knock yourself out.
You'll find that the tooling cost will go a long ways towards a
completed gun, so it's not really cost effective. I've seen lowers as
cheap as $60, stripped. A tap for the buffer tube will run at least
$100. Then you get the fun of trying to chop out a close fit on the
mag well without a broach. The only thing you gain by doing it
yourself is the experience and an off-paper lower. What's your time
worth?

Stan

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:54:44 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:04:37 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could
be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i
I had not seen this site, thanks.

You have a valid point, but you lose so much rigidity that your
machining speeds would be killed.

Most parts are manufactured with a real eye on fixturing. That is ways
to quickly remount the part for the next operation. With a good
fixture design, you can go from one op to the next in a few seconds.

I had not seen this website, thanks for the link.

I have prints for various fixtures, do you want me to root them out? I had
wanted to do what you're contemplating but my mill is stuffed for the next
year. The company's projects are piled up, I have a machinist working 'till
9:00 PM every night...no room for personal stuff.

Time for another mill..and perhaps someone to run it, even part time
would help.

Gunner

"I'm a lifelong devout atheist, and I'm very tolerant of other beliefs..."
Pete C.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:54:44 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:04:37 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could
be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i
I had not seen this site, thanks.

You have a valid point, but you lose so much rigidity that your
machining speeds would be killed.

Most parts are manufactured with a real eye on fixturing. That is ways
to quickly remount the part for the next operation. With a good
fixture design, you can go from one op to the next in a few seconds.

I had not seen this website, thanks for the link.

I have prints for various fixtures, do you want me to root them out? I had
wanted to do what you're contemplating but my mill is stuffed for the next
year. The company's projects are piled up, I have a machinist working 'till
9:00 PM every night...no room for personal stuff.

Most certainly, I'd appreciate it.

Creeping elegance is setting it, I was going to get an 80% lower, then
saw the forging. So, I asked the kid to program it. Now he wants to
build directly from billet and do both .223 and .308. He just called
over lunch and and wants the old wire EDM up and running to wire out
the mag pocket.

I sent him the site Iggy found for machine from billet and told him it
looked a bit much. The kid says that guy don't have production
experience and he can do better.

The only tooling we don't have is a 1 3/16 by 16 tap. Its $160 from
MSC, ouch.

Karl

On 2010-12-28, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:54:44 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:04:37 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could
be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i
I had not seen this site, thanks.

You have a valid point, but you lose so much rigidity that your
machining speeds would be killed.

Most parts are manufactured with a real eye on fixturing. That is ways
to quickly remount the part for the next operation. With a good
fixture design, you can go from one op to the next in a few seconds.

I had not seen this website, thanks for the link.

I have prints for various fixtures, do you want me to root them out? I had
wanted to do what you're contemplating but my mill is stuffed for the next
year. The company's projects are piled up, I have a machinist working 'till
9:00 PM every night...no room for personal stuff.

Most certainly, I'd appreciate it.

Creeping elegance is setting it, I was going to get an 80% lower, then
saw the forging. So, I asked the kid to program it. Now he wants to
build directly from billet and do both .223 and .308. He just called
over lunch and and wants the old wire EDM up and running to wire out
the mag pocket.

I sent him the site Iggy found for machine from billet and told him it
looked a bit much. The kid says that guy don't have production
experience and he can do better.

The only tooling we don't have is a 1 3/16 by 16 tap. Its $160 from
MSC, ouch.

Karl

Karl, how many hours of your or your son's labor it will take?

i

On 12/28/2010 2:39 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:

snip
The only tooling we don't have is a 1 3/16 by 16 tap. Its $160 from
MSC, ouch.

Karl

If you have CNC why not just thread mill it?

As far as the OP's desire to make an AR lower, knock yourself out.
You'll find that the tooling cost will go a long ways towards a
completed gun, so it's not really cost effective. I've seen lowers as
cheap as $60, stripped. A tap for the buffer tube will run at least
$100. Then you get the fun of trying to chop out a close fit on the
mag well without a broach. The only thing you gain by doing it
yourself is the experience and an off-paper lower. What's your time
worth?

Stan

I know exactly what my time is worth. the only job I've collected a
salary for in the last 25 years is Township Supervisor. It pays $600 a
year and I put in 150 hours to collect it. So $4 an hour is about
right.

I remember talking to another fella in my business. He said,"I don't
mind the minimum wage but i do wish I could earn that much"

Seriously, the goal here is to do something to be proud of this
winter. AND, do it in the heated shop.

Karl

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:48:52 -0500, tnik wrote:

On 12/28/2010 2:39 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:

snip
The only tooling we don't have is a 1 3/16 by 16 tap. Its $160 from
MSC, ouch.

Karl

If you have CNC why not just thread mill it?

I'll probably single point thread mill the first part, but i doubt i
can hold specs. this way. A 16 TPI insert thread mill will cost more
than the tap.

Karl

Karl, how many hours of your or your son's labor it will take?

I'll guess 100 - 150 hours to make the first good one, then 1/2 hour a
piece after that.

On 12/28/2010 8:43 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Wes wrote:

"David R. wrote:

ATF doesn't need to serialize it nor do you if you're building it for
your own use. You can't sell, give away or otherwise transfer it unless
you have a manufacturer's license, which is when the serial number
becomes necessary, which the manufacturer does, not the ATF.

So what happens when you die?

Whoever inherits it needs to do the paperwork for an NFA firearm.
Remember this applies to NFA firearms, not to "ordinary" firearms.

The paperwork is confusing since it generically refers to "firearm" in
the title, however further into the forms they specifically refer to NFA
firearms only. Look at ATF form 1 which is titled "Application to Make
and Register a Firearm", but further down on the instruction page it
specifically refers to NFA firearms only. It also has "Estate
Procedures: For procedures regarding the transfer of firearms in an
estate resulting from the death of the registrant identified in item 3,
the executor should contact the NFA Branch, Bureau of the ATF...". You
can download the forms from the BATFE site.

I must have missed the message that changed the issue from manufacturing
a receiver to making an NFA weapon. AFAIK, you can't make an NFA weapon
for your own use as of 1986.

David

"David R. Birch" wrote:

On 12/28/2010 8:43 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Wes wrote:

"David R. wrote:

ATF doesn't need to serialize it nor do you if you're building it for
your own use. You can't sell, give away or otherwise transfer it unless
you have a manufacturer's license, which is when the serial number
becomes necessary, which the manufacturer does, not the ATF.

So what happens when you die?

Whoever inherits it needs to do the paperwork for an NFA firearm.
Remember this applies to NFA firearms, not to "ordinary" firearms.

The paperwork is confusing since it generically refers to "firearm" in
the title, however further into the forms they specifically refer to NFA
firearms only. Look at ATF form 1 which is titled "Application to Make
and Register a Firearm", but further down on the instruction page it
specifically refers to NFA firearms only. It also has "Estate
Procedures: For procedures regarding the transfer of firearms in an
estate resulting from the death of the registrant identified in item 3,
the executor should contact the NFA Branch, Bureau of the ATF...". You
can download the forms from the BATFE site.

I must have missed the message that changed the issue from manufacturing
a receiver to making an NFA weapon. AFAIK, you can't make an NFA weapon
for your own use as of 1986.

Early on the thread discussed the legality of making your own AR lower.
There was a lot of confusion about restrictions with people confusing
NFA only restrictions as applying to non NFA firearms.

You also seem to be confused about NFA firearms, as the 1986 date you
refer to only applies to full-auto machine guns, and not to other NFA
firearms like short barreled rifles, silencers, etc.

I'm vaguely kicking around the idea of sending in the paperwork and $200
to get a tax stamp and paperwork to legally build a silencer, but I'm
not sure if I have enough ambition to do all the paperwork.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 13:47:42 -0600, Ignoramus24647
wrote:

On 2010-12-28, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:54:44 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:04:37 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

Karl, I wanted to ask a question about manufacturing methods for the
Ar-15 receiver.

Look at this:

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

He had to reclamp his piece numerous times to make it on a CNC mill. I
wonder, how much of that is due to lack of the 4th axis.

My feeling on this is that with a suitable 4th axis, this receiver could
be
done in 2-3 reclampings, or perhaps even one. With a 4th axis, clamp
once, and then turn various sides towards the spindle to be machined.

Am I making any sense?

i
I had not seen this site, thanks.

You have a valid point, but you lose so much rigidity that your
machining speeds would be killed.

Most parts are manufactured with a real eye on fixturing. That is ways
to quickly remount the part for the next operation. With a good
fixture design, you can go from one op to the next in a few seconds.

I had not seen this website, thanks for the link.

I have prints for various fixtures, do you want me to root them out? I had
wanted to do what you're contemplating but my mill is stuffed for the next
year. The company's projects are piled up, I have a machinist working 'till
9:00 PM every night...no room for personal stuff.

Most certainly, I'd appreciate it.

Creeping elegance is setting it, I was going to get an 80% lower, then
saw the forging. So, I asked the kid to program it. Now he wants to
build directly from billet and do both .223 and .308. He just called
over lunch and and wants the old wire EDM up and running to wire out
the mag pocket.

I sent him the site Iggy found for machine from billet and told him it
looked a bit much. The kid says that guy don't have production
experience and he can do better.

The only tooling we don't have is a 1 3/16 by 16 tap. Its $160 from
MSC, ouch.

Karl

Karl, how many hours of your or your son's labor it will take?

To make the receiver or the tap? Hell, he could make enough money to
pay for the entire rifle by making half a dozen taps, then keeping
one. Iggy, with your CNC and one of Gunner's ovens...

--
Make the best use of what is in your power,
and take the rest as it happens.
-- Epictetus

On 2010-12-29, Larry Jaques wrote:

To make the receiver or the tap? Hell, he could make enough money to
pay for the entire rifle by making half a dozen taps, then keeping
one. Iggy, with your CNC and one of Gunner's ovens...


Those taps are made by grinding.

i

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:45:44 -0600, Ignoramus24647
wrote:

On 2010-12-29, Larry Jaques wrote:

To make the receiver or the tap? Hell, he could make enough money to
pay for the entire rifle by making half a dozen taps, then keeping
one. Iggy, with your CNC and one of Gunner's ovens...

Those taps are made by grinding.

I didn't know that. Got a link to the procedure? Sounds interesting.

--
Make the best use of what is in your power,
and take the rest as it happens.
-- Epictetus

On 2010-12-29, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:45:44 -0600, Ignoramus24647
wrote:

On 2010-12-29, Larry Jaques wrote:

To make the receiver or the tap? Hell, he could make enough money to
pay for the entire rifle by making half a dozen taps, then keeping
one. Iggy, with your CNC and one of Gunner's ovens...

Those taps are made by grinding.

I didn't know that. Got a link to the procedure? Sounds interesting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccDduF80nuU

On 12/28/2010 10:54 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:


I have prints for various fixtures, do you want me to root them out? I had
wanted to do what you're contemplating but my mill is stuffed for the next
year. The company's projects are piled up, I have a machinist working 'till
9:00 PM every night...no room for personal stuff.


Hard copy prints or CAD files? If they're AutoCad compatible, I'd like
to take a look. We have a Fadal at work that sits for 95% of the time
and some suitable chunks of 6061-T6 left over from another job.

David