Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 -- so
feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60 mil
aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and T6
(harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 09:47:17 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 -- so
feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60 mil
aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and T6
(harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

Can't help you with I.D.s but "the Kid" raced super modified for a
couple years. The skin he used was AL, easy enough to bend on our hand
brake, cut on our foot stomp shear and it had to be hardened. I could
ask him the grade if this is what you're after.

Karl

On 10/08/2010 10:47 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 09:47:17 -0700, Tim
wrote:

Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 -- so
feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60 mil
aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and T6
(harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

Can't help you with I.D.s but "the Kid" raced super modified for a
couple years. The skin he used was AL, easy enough to bend on our hand
brake, cut on our foot stomp shear and it had to be hardened. I could
ask him the grade if this is what you're after.

Where I'm coming from is more this:

I've brushed up against the need -- mine, or acquaintances -- to bend up
aluminum landing gear for model airplanes. If you use the usual 3003
"nice and soft" aluminum for this it bends each and every time you land,
if it doesn't do so the first time you set the plane on it.

But you can buy nice aluminum landing gear, some of which is advertised
as being heat treated to T6 condition. It's nice stuff -- you really
have to thump it to make it bend, and it's at least ductile enough that
you can generally bend it back and go flying again after a hard landing.

So I'm wondering -- before I go pay money for something wrong -- if this
is something that I can just get and use, or if I'd have to mess around
with hardening.

To date I've always been able to make up my LG from wire -- but there
are times when a nice sheet aluminum gear would work out better.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 11:14:21 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 10/08/2010 10:47 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 09:47:17 -0700, Tim
wrote:

Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 -- so
feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60 mil
aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and T6
(harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

Can't help you with I.D.s but "the Kid" raced super modified for a
couple years. The skin he used was AL, easy enough to bend on our hand
brake, cut on our foot stomp shear and it had to be hardened. I could
ask him the grade if this is what you're after.

Where I'm coming from is more this:

I've brushed up against the need -- mine, or acquaintances -- to bend up
aluminum landing gear for model airplanes. If you use the usual 3003
"nice and soft" aluminum for this it bends each and every time you land,
if it doesn't do so the first time you set the plane on it.

But you can buy nice aluminum landing gear, some of which is advertised
as being heat treated to T6 condition. It's nice stuff -- you really
have to thump it to make it bend, and it's at least ductile enough that
you can generally bend it back and go flying again after a hard landing.

So I'm wondering -- before I go pay money for something wrong -- if this
is something that I can just get and use, or if I'd have to mess around
with hardening.

To date I've always been able to make up my LG from wire -- but there
are times when a nice sheet aluminum gear would work out better.
Get 6061t6 or 6061t650 and cold bend it - minimum bending radius is
3X the thickness? Something like that. Actually I looked it up - 2X
thickness is minimum radius 3x preferred.
Or you can anneal it, bend it, and let it sit for about 6 months and
it will be age-hardened back to something like a T3.

Tim Wescott wrote:
Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 --
so feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60
mil aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and
T6 (harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

I don't know what the minimum recommended bend radius is with that
material so would go with what Clare has mentioned in another post. My
experience is with 2" wide by 3/8" thick 6082 (IIRC) T6 and I was
bending it 90 degrees at about a 5" radius former to end up with a 6"
radius. I had to bend it to about 120 - 130 degrees to end up with a 90
degree bend due to the spring back. I had a section of 2" x 2" x 16swg
steel box section about 5' long clamped to it for mechanical advantage.
I would say your landing gear shouldn't be a problem to bend in T6
providing you use a sensible radius for the bends.

On Oct 8, 12:47*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 -- so
feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60 mil
aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and T6
(harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? *60
degree? *90? *Bend radius? *Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? *Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?
...
Tim Wescott

Usually 1/16"6061-T6 was the only material available when I fabricated
electronics enclosures. It cracks somewhat if bent sharp so I padded
the brake with another prebent strip.

0.050" material is considerably easier to work on a 3-in-1 combo
machine.

The fuselage of a B-17 was made from 0.040" - 0.063" sheet. It should
be good enough for a model.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuselage
The stringers are bulb angle instead of hat sections . I measured only
worn exposed edges so not to scratch the paint.

jsw

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 09:47:17 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 -- so
feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60 mil
aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and T6
(harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

T-6 is an aluminum designation for heat treated and age hardened. I
may be mistaken but it may be possible to heat treat the part, bend it
fairly quickly and then let it age harden. Certainly there were "ice
box" rivets used on aircraft that were heat treated, kept on dry ice,
until driven and which were T-6 after being the driving and age
hardening process.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 11:14:21 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 10/08/2010 10:47 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 09:47:17 -0700, Tim
wrote:

Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 -- so
feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60 mil
aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and T6
(harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

Can't help you with I.D.s but "the Kid" raced super modified for a
couple years. The skin he used was AL, easy enough to bend on our hand
brake, cut on our foot stomp shear and it had to be hardened. I could
ask him the grade if this is what you're after.

Where I'm coming from is more this:

I've brushed up against the need -- mine, or acquaintances -- to bend up
aluminum landing gear for model airplanes. If you use the usual 3003
"nice and soft" aluminum for this it bends each and every time you land,
if it doesn't do so the first time you set the plane on it.

But you can buy nice aluminum landing gear, some of which is advertised
as being heat treated to T6 condition. It's nice stuff -- you really
have to thump it to make it bend, and it's at least ductile enough that
you can generally bend it back and go flying again after a hard landing.

So I'm wondering -- before I go pay money for something wrong -- if this
is something that I can just get and use, or if I'd have to mess around
with hardening.

To date I've always been able to make up my LG from wire -- but there
are times when a nice sheet aluminum gear would work out better.


Read up on the details of heat treating 6061 aluminum. If I remember
correctly it is doable in the kitchen oven.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On 2010-10-08, Jim Wilkins wrote:

[ ... ]

Usually 1/16"6061-T6 was the only material available when I fabricated
electronics enclosures. It cracks somewhat if bent sharp so I padded
the brake with another prebent strip.

Bend it with the "grain" of the aluminum (from rolling, I think)
parallel to the bend seam and it *will* crack unless you go to a rather
large bend radius.

Bend it with the grain at 90 degrees to the bend seam and you
can get away with less cracking for the same bend radius.

It seems to open up along the grain lines when it is being bent
-- on the outside of the bend where the metal is being stretched.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Tim Wescott wrote:
Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 --
so feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60
mil aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and
T6 (harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

You can probably get by with 6061-T6, especially if you don't set the
brake for a sharp bend. No way on earth
with 2024, it will snap almost like glass. With the 6061, you can heat
it along the bend line with a torch until
a soap streak turns brown, then immediately hold under running water.
This will anneal it so it can be easily
bent, even 1/8" thickness. It will re-harden over time. (Heat treat
can be hurried with an oven, of course.)

Jon

Jon Elson wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote:
Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 --
so feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60
mil aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and
T6 (harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

You can probably get by with 6061-T6, especially if you don't set the
brake for a sharp bend. No way on earth
with 2024, it will snap almost like glass. With the 6061, you can heat
it along the bend line with a torch until
a soap streak turns brown, then immediately hold under running water.
This will anneal it so it can be easily
bent, even 1/8" thickness. It will re-harden over time. (Heat treat
can be hurried with an oven, of course.)

Jon


I've never heard of the running water part before.

What I did was mark the bend area with a marks-a-lot and burn it off
with a PROPANE torch. OA will burn it off - along with the metal -
if you are not really really careful.



--

Richard Lamb

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 11:14:21 -0700, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 10/08/2010 10:47 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 09:47:17 -0700, Tim
wrote:

Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 -- so
feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60
mil aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and
T6 (harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

Can't help you with I.D.s but "the Kid" raced super modified for a
couple years. The skin he used was AL, easy enough to bend on our hand
brake, cut on our foot stomp shear and it had to be hardened. I could
ask him the grade if this is what you're after.

Where I'm coming from is more this:

I've brushed up against the need -- mine, or acquaintances -- to bend up
aluminum landing gear for model airplanes. If you use the usual 3003
"nice and soft" aluminum for this it bends each and every time you land,
if it doesn't do so the first time you set the plane on it.

But you can buy nice aluminum landing gear, some of which is advertised as
being heat treated to T6 condition. It's nice stuff -- you really have to
thump it to make it bend, and it's at least ductile enough that you can
generally bend it back and go flying again after a hard landing.

So I'm wondering -- before I go pay money for something wrong -- if this
is something that I can just get and use, or if I'd have to mess around
with hardening.

To date I've always been able to make up my LG from wire -- but there are
times when a nice sheet aluminum gear would work out better.

I don't know very much about metal - are you talking about the wheel
struts themselves made out of sheet, and not just "pants" with piano
wire struts/axles?

When I envision something like this, something in my mind screams
"spring steel!" but that's just something that popped up, and I
don't really know the configuration of your LG, so what do I know?

Thanks,
Rich

On 10/09/2010 12:53 AM, Rich Grise wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 11:14:21 -0700, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 10/08/2010 10:47 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 09:47:17 -0700, Tim
wrote:

Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 -- so
feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60
mil aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and
T6 (harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

Can't help you with I.D.s but "the Kid" raced super modified for a
couple years. The skin he used was AL, easy enough to bend on our hand
brake, cut on our foot stomp shear and it had to be hardened. I could
ask him the grade if this is what you're after.

Where I'm coming from is more this:

I've brushed up against the need -- mine, or acquaintances -- to bend up
aluminum landing gear for model airplanes. If you use the usual 3003
"nice and soft" aluminum for this it bends each and every time you land,
if it doesn't do so the first time you set the plane on it.

But you can buy nice aluminum landing gear, some of which is advertised as
being heat treated to T6 condition. It's nice stuff -- you really have to
thump it to make it bend, and it's at least ductile enough that you can
generally bend it back and go flying again after a hard landing.

So I'm wondering -- before I go pay money for something wrong -- if this
is something that I can just get and use, or if I'd have to mess around
with hardening.

To date I've always been able to make up my LG from wire -- but there are
times when a nice sheet aluminum gear would work out better.

I don't know very much about metal - are you talking about the wheel
struts themselves made out of sheet, and not just "pants" with piano
wire struts/axles?

Yes. It's done all the time.

When I envision something like this, something in my mind screams
"spring steel!" but that's just something that popped up, and I
don't really know the configuration of your LG, so what do I know?

With enough width, you can think "spring aluminum!"

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Sat, 09 Oct 2010 07:24:01 -0700, Ralph E Lindberg
wrote:

In article ,
David Billington wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:
Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 --
so feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60
mil aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3 and
T6 (harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it? 60
degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just have
to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up, and
figure out how to bake it?

I don't know what the minimum recommended bend radius is with that
material so would go with what Clare has mentioned in another post. My
experience is with 2" wide by 3/8" thick 6082 (IIRC) T6 and I was
bending it 90 degrees at about a 5" radius former to end up with a 6"
radius. I had to bend it to about 120 - 130 degrees to end up with a 90
degree bend due to the spring back. I had a section of 2" x 2" x 16swg
steel box section about 5' long clamped to it for mechanical advantage.
I would say your landing gear shouldn't be a problem to bend in T6
providing you use a sensible radius for the bends.

I've also had real issues with spring-back on 6061-T6, or why I stopped
using it
A friend has made quite a few lanring gears for Zenith 701 aircraft -
cold-bending 6061T6 in a 40 ton hydraulic press. 3/4 inch iirc.

CaveLamb wrote:
Jon Elson wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote:
Yes, there's a lot of different alloys that can be tempered to T6 --
so feel free to educate me.

Is it at all a sensible thing to think that I could get some 40 - 60
mil aluminum sheet that's already tempered to somewhere between T3
and T6 (harder is better), and be able to put 45 degree bends in it?
60 degree? 90? Bend radius? Is this something that could be done on a
normal brake? Clearly springback would be an issue, but is it just a
pain, or a real @#$% pain?

Or did I accidentally smoke something this morning, and do I just
have to get some decent alloy in an annealed condition, bend it up,
and figure out how to bake it?

You can probably get by with 6061-T6, especially if you don't set the
brake for a sharp bend. No way on earth
with 2024, it will snap almost like glass. With the 6061, you can heat
it along the bend line with a torch until
a soap streak turns brown, then immediately hold under running water.
This will anneal it so it can be easily
bent, even 1/8" thickness. It will re-harden over time. (Heat treat
can be hurried with an oven, of course.)

Jon


I've never heard of the running water part before.

What I did was mark the bend area with a marks-a-lot and burn it off
with a PROPANE torch. OA will burn it off - along with the metal -
if you are not really really careful.





A propane torch is hot enough for most applications. The cold water
does a better quench to soften the aluminum. You can bend 2024 is your
are careful and don't try for a square corner. two backup strips of the
same gauge will usually keep it from cracking especially if you anneal
it. When I was doing STC's for autopilot servo installations I would
order the metal in the annealed condition T0 and then after it was
bent it would be sent to an approved heat treat company but that would
probably be too expensive for your application.

John

John wrote:


I've never heard of the running water part before.

What I did was mark the bend area with a marks-a-lot and burn it off
with a PROPANE torch. OA will burn it off - along with the metal -
if you are not really really careful.





A propane torch is hot enough for most applications. The cold water
does a better quench to soften the aluminum. You can bend 2024 is your
are careful and don't try for a square corner. two backup strips of the
same gauge will usually keep it from cracking especially if you anneal
it. When I was doing STC's for autopilot servo installations I would
order the metal in the annealed condition T0 and then after it was
bent it would be sent to an approved heat treat company but that would
probably be too expensive for your application.

John


You may be right about the propane - if the part is more than .125 thick
or too large to pick up...

My experience was hammer forming fairing strips around windshields and
tail feathers.

Propane is plenty hot enough for small parts.

--

Richard Lamb