I've been interested for a long time in auto body work and painting but
never had a clunker to play with. Since buying my Ford Ranger, my F-350
will be going up for sale, I hope to sell it within maybe 6 months or so,
maybe the 4wd will sell good around snow time. The F-350 I have isn't a
show truck but has a good engine and drive train so it's an opportunity for
me to try some body work and touch up.

I need to know what kind of sheet metal to get to patch some holes, it needs
to be formable, weldable, and close to the thickness of auto body steel. I
wouldn't mind having a little extra, I'd like to try forming with hammers,
sand bags, and perhaps make an English Wheel.

Also, years back some were claiming to have real good results with the
Harbor Freight HVLP paint guns, they liked them better than some of the name
brand guns IIRC. Any recommended model of HF paint gun?

Any other good tool recommendations that would be useful in auto body?
Power sanders/ power wet sander? I have a Porter-Cable random orbit sander
for wood, I guess it would work for auto body. Will probably get a slide
hammer type puller.

Any recommendations on paint? I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.

So maybe I get to play with making my old truck look better, learning some
skills along the way, and it will hopefully help the truck sell better and
give the buyer a nicer looking truck. I'm sure I'll spend more than it will
help the value but I get to learn something and keep the tools.

RogerN

Roger,
To do this right, you need to make a significant investment in sheet metal tools, which should include a sheer, a brake, rolls, a
shrinker, sheet metal hammers, dollies planishing pillows and hammers, as well as several other less significant items. Most of
the cost of these can be avoided if you use preformed replacement panels. Of course, this will not help you achieve the skill set
of hand forming custom panels, but it does make economic sense. Please also note, that back yard repairs done incorrectly will
devalue the vehicle. Please also note that the investment required is not just money, but significant time and very hard work.
There are very few people with these old fashioned skill sets still alive today. You will not achieve these with just the
experience from one vehicle. Another, not well understood fact is that the sheet metal used in vehicles today is much thinner than
what used to be used. Consequently, almost all panel damage results in stretched metal, making panel repair impractical.
Additionally, the odds of you achieving the skill set you wish to have is about "0" without instruction from a master. I don't
mean to rain on your parade, but you should go into this with your eyes open.
Steve

"RogerN" wrote in message news

I've been interested for a long time in auto body work and painting but never had a clunker to play with. Since buying my Ford
Ranger, my F-350 will be going up for sale, I hope to sell it within maybe 6 months or so, maybe the 4wd will sell good around
snow time. The F-350 I have isn't a show truck but has a good engine and drive train so it's an opportunity for me to try some
body work and touch up.

I need to know what kind of sheet metal to get to patch some holes, it needs to be formable, weldable, and close to the
thickness of auto body steel. I wouldn't mind having a little extra, I'd like to try forming with hammers, sand bags, and
perhaps make an English Wheel.

Also, years back some were claiming to have real good results with the Harbor Freight HVLP paint guns, they liked them better
than some of the name brand guns IIRC. Any recommended model of HF paint gun?

Any other good tool recommendations that would be useful in auto body? Power sanders/ power wet sander? I have a Porter-Cable
random orbit sander for wood, I guess it would work for auto body. Will probably get a slide hammer type puller.

Any recommendations on paint? I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear,
just plain white paint. That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable competitive price.

So maybe I get to play with making my old truck look better, learning some skills along the way, and it will hopefully help the
truck sell better and give the buyer a nicer looking truck. I'm sure I'll spend more than it will help the value but I get to
learn something and keep the tools.

RogerN

one comment on steve's suggestions below (which are pretty good) - if the
truck has no collector value, a quick tack on of metal over rusted areas and
some properly applied body filler and paint may add $$ to the truck, a
little hammer and dolly experience is good, and if you can use a gas welder,
you can shrink panels if you really want to, though it is a PITA.

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Roger,
To do this right, you need to make a significant investment in sheet metal
tools, which should include a sheer, a brake, rolls, a shrinker, sheet
metal hammers, dollies planishing pillows and hammers, as well as several
other less significant items. Most of the cost of these can be avoided if
you use preformed replacement panels. Of course, this will not help you
achieve the skill set of hand forming custom panels, but it does make
economic sense. Please also note, that back yard repairs done incorrectly
will devalue the vehicle. Please also note that the investment required is
not just money, but significant time and very hard work. There are very
few people with these old fashioned skill sets still alive today. You will
not achieve these with just the experience from one vehicle. Another, not
well understood fact is that the sheet metal used in vehicles today is
much thinner than what used to be used. Consequently, almost all panel
damage results in stretched metal, making panel repair impractical.
Additionally, the odds of you achieving the skill set you wish to have is
about "0" without instruction from a master. I don't mean to rain on your
parade, but you should go into this with your eyes open.
Steve

"RogerN" wrote in message
news

I've been interested for a long time in auto body work and painting but
never had a clunker to play with. Since buying my Ford Ranger, my F-350
will be going up for sale, I hope to sell it within maybe 6 months or so,
maybe the 4wd will sell good around snow time. The F-350 I have isn't a
show truck but has a good engine and drive train so it's an opportunity
for me to try some body work and touch up.

I need to know what kind of sheet metal to get to patch some holes, it
needs to be formable, weldable, and close to the thickness of auto body
steel. I wouldn't mind having a little extra, I'd like to try forming
with hammers, sand bags, and perhaps make an English Wheel.

Also, years back some were claiming to have real good results with the
Harbor Freight HVLP paint guns, they liked them better than some of the
name brand guns IIRC. Any recommended model of HF paint gun?

Any other good tool recommendations that would be useful in auto body?
Power sanders/ power wet sander? I have a Porter-Cable random orbit
sander for wood, I guess it would work for auto body. Will probably get
a slide hammer type puller.

Any recommendations on paint? I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.

So maybe I get to play with making my old truck look better, learning
some skills along the way, and it will hopefully help the truck sell
better and give the buyer a nicer looking truck. I'm sure I'll spend
more than it will help the value but I get to learn something and keep
the tools.

RogerN

On Jun 2, 4:19*pm, "RogerN" wrote:
I've been interested for a long time in auto body work and painting but
never had a clunker to play with. *Since buying my Ford Ranger, my F-350
will be going up for sale, I hope to sell it within maybe 6 months or so,
maybe the 4wd will sell good around snow time. *The F-350 I have isn't a
show truck but has a good engine and drive train so it's an opportunity for
me to try some body work and touch up.

I need to know what kind of sheet metal to get to patch some holes, it needs
to be formable, weldable, and close to the thickness of auto body steel. *I
wouldn't mind having a little extra, I'd like to try forming with hammers,
sand bags, and perhaps make an English Wheel.

Also, years back some were claiming to have real good results with the
Harbor Freight HVLP paint guns, they liked them better than some of the name
brand guns IIRC. *Any recommended model of HF paint gun?

Any other good tool recommendations that would be useful in auto body?
Power sanders/ power wet sander? *I have a Porter-Cable random orbit sander
for wood, I guess it would work for auto body. *Will probably get a slide
hammer type puller.

Any recommendations on paint? *I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. *That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.

So maybe I get to play with making my old truck look better, learning some
skills along the way, and it will hopefully help the truck sell better and
give the buyer a nicer looking truck. *I'm sure I'll spend more than it will
help the value but I get to learn something and keep the tools.

RogerN

Many people go to Eastwood.
http://www.eastwood.com/?srccode=ga2...FSCjiQodVEsbFw
I've never used them myself so I can't give a personal recommendation.
Karl

"RogerN" wrote in message
...

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Roger,
To do this right, you need to make a significant investment in sheet
metal tools, which should include a sheer, a brake, rolls, a shrinker,
sheet metal hammers, dollies planishing pillows and hammers, as well as
several other less significant items. Most of the cost of these can be
avoided if you use preformed replacement panels. Of course, this will not
help you achieve the skill set of hand forming custom panels, but it does
make economic sense. Please also note, that back yard repairs done
incorrectly will devalue the vehicle. Please also note that the
investment required is not just money, but significant time and very hard
work. There are very few people with these old fashioned skill sets still
alive today. You will not achieve these with just the experience from one
vehicle. Another, not well understood fact is that the sheet metal used
in vehicles today is much thinner than what used to be used.
Consequently, almost all panel damage results in stretched metal, making
panel repair impractical. Additionally, the odds of you achieving the
skill set you wish to have is about "0" without instruction from a
master. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you should go into this
with your eyes open.
Steve

"RogerN" wrote in message
news

The part I want to do the metal work from raw sheet is a hole in the door
probably done by Bobcat, the guy I purchased from used it to pull his
Bobcat around in his landscaping business. So, that part is sort of in
the middle of the door where the metal is fairly flat and it doesn't look
rusted, looks like someone put house paint over it. I don't think I want
to try to re-skin the door for the hole. The other metal shaping toys are
just for fun, I'd like to play with sheet metal and try to learn to shape
it like they do on the Chopper TV programs. For the rusted thru above the
wheel fenders I plan to try ready made replacement panels. Other than
that there are many places where it is scratched or banged up a little,
this truck was used to do work and shows is.

RogerN

Take a look at the Tinman's site:

http://www.tinmantech.com/

You've gotten good advice from others about the frustration of working with
today's thin body sheet metal, which is often a HSLA (high-strength
low-alloy) that is particularly nasty. It work-hardens if you look at it
cross-eyed.

However, you can have a heck of a lot of fun learning to shape other kinds
of sheet metal. I've tried it, with the sandbag and stump methods. I produce
something that looks like waves in a stormy sea. g Better luck to you. It
requires persistence.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:19:55 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:


I've been interested for a long time in auto body work and painting but
never had a clunker to play with. Since buying my Ford Ranger, my F-350
will be going up for sale, I hope to sell it within maybe 6 months or so,
maybe the 4wd will sell good around snow time. The F-350 I have isn't a
show truck but has a good engine and drive train so it's an opportunity for
me to try some body work and touch up.

I need to know what kind of sheet metal to get to patch some holes, it needs
to be formable, weldable, and close to the thickness of auto body steel. I
wouldn't mind having a little extra, I'd like to try forming with hammers,
sand bags, and perhaps make an English Wheel.

Also, years back some were claiming to have real good results with the
Harbor Freight HVLP paint guns, they liked them better than some of the name
brand guns IIRC. Any recommended model of HF paint gun?

Any other good tool recommendations that would be useful in auto body?
Power sanders/ power wet sander? I have a Porter-Cable random orbit sander
for wood, I guess it would work for auto body. Will probably get a slide
hammer type puller.

Any recommendations on paint? I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.

So maybe I get to play with making my old truck look better, learning some
skills along the way, and it will hopefully help the truck sell better and
give the buyer a nicer looking truck. I'm sure I'll spend more than it will
help the value but I get to learn something and keep the tools.

RogerN

A small MIG welder is very useful. The Lincoln SP135+ is excellent
because heat is continuously variable.

Good auto paint is pricey, and well worth it.

Use a respirator OSHA-rated for auto paint. They're about 25 bux.

Modern cars use very thin high-strength steel that is about
unworkable, but older trucks are made of more tractiable stuff. I've
even made patches from the skin of an old water heater.

This is a very useful tool:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...ct_14322_14322
Harbor Freight offers the same tool. It makes a flange in one part
and punches holes in the other. You then place the repair part, hold
it with cleco's or sheetmetal screws, and fill the holes with the MIG.

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:19:55 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

Any recommendations on paint? I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.

That sounds a trifle steep. I bought a pint of metallic beige to
match a Toyota Corolla, it was about $40 at O'Reilly's. My
understanding from them was that it would have cost only a little more
for a quart. You may want to check around at other auto parts stores.
--
Terry

On Jun 2, 8:19*pm, "RogerN" wrote:
I've been interested for a long time in auto body work and painting but
never had a clunker to play with. *Since buying my Ford Ranger, my F-350
will be going up for sale, I hope to sell it within maybe 6 months or so,
maybe the 4wd will sell good around snow time. *The F-350 I have isn't a
show truck but has a good engine and drive train so it's an opportunity for
me to try some body work and touch up.

I need to know what kind of sheet metal to get to patch some holes, it needs
to be formable, weldable, and close to the thickness of auto body steel. *I
wouldn't mind having a little extra, I'd like to try forming with hammers,
sand bags, and perhaps make an English Wheel.

Also, years back some were claiming to have real good results with the
Harbor Freight HVLP paint guns, they liked them better than some of the name
brand guns IIRC. *Any recommended model of HF paint gun?

Any other good tool recommendations that would be useful in auto body?
Power sanders/ power wet sander? *I have a Porter-Cable random orbit sander
for wood, I guess it would work for auto body. *Will probably get a slide
hammer type puller.

Any recommendations on paint? *I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. *That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.

So maybe I get to play with making my old truck look better, learning some
skills along the way, and it will hopefully help the truck sell better and
give the buyer a nicer looking truck. *I'm sure I'll spend more than it will
help the value but I get to learn something and keep the tools.

RogerN

If the paint is urethane, $100/qt probably isn't out of line. Depends
on whether you get the hardener included or not. It gets diluted, the
stuff I was using was 1 to 4 paint to diluent. Last paint I bought
years back was about $80/qt made up, had to buy hardener, diluent,
clear coat, hardener for that, diluent for that, primer for the works
and thinner for cleanup, plus various grades of sandpaper, masking
material and tape, etc. Had about $250 in materials without even
starting the tools up. You will need a mask, urethane is nothing you
want to be breathing. If you head down to a body shop supply, they'll
have everything you'll need. You might get a break on supply prices,
never on paint. NAPA is probably the worst place to buy paint. Note
that you have to buy all your paint supplies within the same "family",
usually there's at least two grades that a manufacturer puts out.
Can't use the cheaper grade primer behind the more expensive paint or
vice-versa. These days it all has to match or you'll have a nasty
mess.

You also have to break down and clean the gun immediately before the
stuff hardens up, unless you really like poking out dinky holes in the
gun with various-sized wires. HF guns aren't too bad for taking
apart, not too many small bits to lose, either.

Find a body shop supply and get their literature before buying paint.
It'll have all the stuff on recommended temps, dilutions, how long to
wait before second coat and clear coat, what primers and paints match,
ditto clear coat.

Unless you really like sanding fuzz off, you'll need a place that you
can tarp up to keep the dust off until the paint hardens up. The
stuff isn't like lacquer that hardens up really fast. I've found that
about 85 degrees is about optimum for painting in these parts. Too
much cooler and the stuff runs, too much warmer and you get orange
peel from the paint losing diluent before it hits. YMMV. If you can
arrange for some heat lamps, that'll speed things up after spraying.

Stan

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
...

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Roger,
To do this right, you need to make a significant investment in sheet
metal tools, which should include a sheer, a brake, rolls, a shrinker,
sheet metal hammers, dollies planishing pillows and hammers, as well as
several other less significant items. Most of the cost of these can be
avoided if you use preformed replacement panels. Of course, this will
not help you achieve the skill set of hand forming custom panels, but it
does make economic sense. Please also note, that back yard repairs done
incorrectly will devalue the vehicle. Please also note that the
investment required is not just money, but significant time and very
hard work. There are very few people with these old fashioned skill sets
still alive today. You will not achieve these with just the experience
from one vehicle. Another, not well understood fact is that the sheet
metal used in vehicles today is much thinner than what used to be used.
Consequently, almost all panel damage results in stretched metal, making
panel repair impractical. Additionally, the odds of you achieving the
skill set you wish to have is about "0" without instruction from a
master. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you should go into this
with your eyes open.
Steve

"RogerN" wrote in message
news

The part I want to do the metal work from raw sheet is a hole in the door
probably done by Bobcat, the guy I purchased from used it to pull his
Bobcat around in his landscaping business. So, that part is sort of in
the middle of the door where the metal is fairly flat and it doesn't look
rusted, looks like someone put house paint over it. I don't think I want
to try to re-skin the door for the hole. The other metal shaping toys
are just for fun, I'd like to play with sheet metal and try to learn to
shape it like they do on the Chopper TV programs. For the rusted thru
above the wheel fenders I plan to try ready made replacement panels.
Other than that there are many places where it is scratched or banged up
a little, this truck was used to do work and shows is.

RogerN

Take a look at the Tinman's site:

http://www.tinmantech.com/

You've gotten good advice from others about the frustration of working
with today's thin body sheet metal, which is often a HSLA (high-strength
low-alloy) that is particularly nasty. It work-hardens if you look at it
cross-eyed.

However, you can have a heck of a lot of fun learning to shape other kinds
of sheet metal. I've tried it, with the sandbag and stump methods. I
produce something that looks like waves in a stormy sea. g Better luck
to you. It requires persistence.

--
Ed Huntress

I guess you weren't trying to make waves in a stormy sea? You can always
sell your failures as modern art!

RogerN

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:19:55 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:


I've been interested for a long time in auto body work and painting but
never had a clunker to play with. Since buying my Ford Ranger, my F-350
will be going up for sale, I hope to sell it within maybe 6 months or so,
maybe the 4wd will sell good around snow time. The F-350 I have isn't a
show truck but has a good engine and drive train so it's an opportunity for
me to try some body work and touch up.

I need to know what kind of sheet metal to get to patch some holes, it needs
to be formable, weldable, and close to the thickness of auto body steel. I
wouldn't mind having a little extra, I'd like to try forming with hammers,
sand bags, and perhaps make an English Wheel.

Also, years back some were claiming to have real good results with the
Harbor Freight HVLP paint guns, they liked them better than some of the name
brand guns IIRC. Any recommended model of HF paint gun?

Any other good tool recommendations that would be useful in auto body?
Power sanders/ power wet sander? I have a Porter-Cable random orbit sander
for wood, I guess it would work for auto body. Will probably get a slide
hammer type puller.

Any recommendations on paint? I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.

Here in Kitchener Ontario there is a place called KW Surplus ( we call
it KW Surprise) and they had about 25 gallons of white automotive
enamel (Dupli-Color brand, I think) for $31 Canadian per (american)
Gallon.
So maybe I get to play with making my old truck look better, learning some
skills along the way, and it will hopefully help the truck sell better and
give the buyer a nicer looking truck. I'm sure I'll spend more than it will
help the value but I get to learn something and keep the tools.

RogerN

On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:14:19 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"RogerN" wrote in message
...

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Roger,
To do this right, you need to make a significant investment in sheet
metal tools, which should include a sheer, a brake, rolls, a shrinker,
sheet metal hammers, dollies planishing pillows and hammers, as well as
several other less significant items. Most of the cost of these can be
avoided if you use preformed replacement panels. Of course, this will not
help you achieve the skill set of hand forming custom panels, but it does
make economic sense. Please also note, that back yard repairs done
incorrectly will devalue the vehicle. Please also note that the
investment required is not just money, but significant time and very hard
work. There are very few people with these old fashioned skill sets still
alive today. You will not achieve these with just the experience from one
vehicle. Another, not well understood fact is that the sheet metal used
in vehicles today is much thinner than what used to be used.
Consequently, almost all panel damage results in stretched metal, making
panel repair impractical. Additionally, the odds of you achieving the
skill set you wish to have is about "0" without instruction from a
master. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you should go into this
with your eyes open.
Steve

"RogerN" wrote in message
news

The part I want to do the metal work from raw sheet is a hole in the door
probably done by Bobcat, the guy I purchased from used it to pull his
Bobcat around in his landscaping business. So, that part is sort of in
the middle of the door where the metal is fairly flat and it doesn't look
rusted, looks like someone put house paint over it. I don't think I want
to try to re-skin the door for the hole. The other metal shaping toys are
just for fun, I'd like to play with sheet metal and try to learn to shape
it like they do on the Chopper TV programs. For the rusted thru above the
wheel fenders I plan to try ready made replacement panels. Other than
that there are many places where it is scratched or banged up a little,
this truck was used to do work and shows is.

RogerN

Take a look at the Tinman's site:

http://www.tinmantech.com/

You've gotten good advice from others about the frustration of working with
today's thin body sheet metal, which is often a HSLA (high-strength
low-alloy) that is particularly nasty. It work-hardens if you look at it
cross-eyed.

However, you can have a heck of a lot of fun learning to shape other kinds
of sheet metal. I've tried it, with the sandbag and stump methods. I produce
something that looks like waves in a stormy sea. g Better luck to you. It
requires persistence.
For rust repair and damage repair it's best to cut out the damaged
area to solid metal and using a "flanger" form a recessed rim around
the hole. Then you cut and shape standard body metal (mild steel, not
the high strength garbage) to fit into the recess. a couple rivits or
sheet metal screws will hold it in place 'till you get it welded -
then weld the holes shut (or use what the pros use - "clecos". You can
hammer and dolly the seam flat, or just fill the seam with bondo and
feather it out. Putting new metal over old rested metal just
guarantees the job won't last. - and it makes it REAL hard to make a
nice job.

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
...

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Roger,
To do this right, you need to make a significant investment in sheet
metal tools, which should include a sheer, a brake, rolls, a shrinker,
sheet metal hammers, dollies planishing pillows and hammers, as well as
several other less significant items. Most of the cost of these can be
avoided if you use preformed replacement panels. Of course, this will
not help you achieve the skill set of hand forming custom panels, but
it does make economic sense. Please also note, that back yard repairs
done incorrectly will devalue the vehicle. Please also note that the
investment required is not just money, but significant time and very
hard work. There are very few people with these old fashioned skill
sets still alive today. You will not achieve these with just the
experience from one vehicle. Another, not well understood fact is that
the sheet metal used in vehicles today is much thinner than what used
to be used. Consequently, almost all panel damage results in stretched
metal, making panel repair impractical. Additionally, the odds of you
achieving the skill set you wish to have is about "0" without
instruction from a master. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you
should go into this with your eyes open.
Steve

"RogerN" wrote in message
news
The part I want to do the metal work from raw sheet is a hole in the
door probably done by Bobcat, the guy I purchased from used it to pull
his Bobcat around in his landscaping business. So, that part is sort of
in the middle of the door where the metal is fairly flat and it doesn't
look rusted, looks like someone put house paint over it. I don't think
I want to try to re-skin the door for the hole. The other metal shaping
toys are just for fun, I'd like to play with sheet metal and try to
learn to shape it like they do on the Chopper TV programs. For the
rusted thru above the wheel fenders I plan to try ready made replacement
panels. Other than that there are many places where it is scratched or
banged up a little, this truck was used to do work and shows is.

RogerN

Take a look at the Tinman's site:

http://www.tinmantech.com/

You've gotten good advice from others about the frustration of working
with today's thin body sheet metal, which is often a HSLA (high-strength
low-alloy) that is particularly nasty. It work-hardens if you look at it
cross-eyed.

However, you can have a heck of a lot of fun learning to shape other
kinds of sheet metal. I've tried it, with the sandbag and stump methods.
I produce something that looks like waves in a stormy sea. g Better
luck to you. It requires persistence.

--
Ed Huntress

I guess you weren't trying to make waves in a stormy sea? You can always
sell your failures as modern art!

RogerN

What failures? They were successful experiments. g

I was working 3003 aluminum, and it's tricky to shrink it with hand tools.
It can be done; you just need to develop some expertise.

Like a lot of metalworking pursuits, you have a few choices. If you want to
build replica bodies or something, you'll need all the tools or a lifetime
of learning and practice. (You'll still need a lot of both, even with all
the tools.) Or you can confine yourself to making simple patch panels
without much crown, and do it all with hand tools (and the flanger that a
couple of folks have mentioned) -- and patience.

I had no interest in making a lifetime hobby out of it, so I just tried the
hand methods. I made my own wooden hammers and sand bag; I hollowed out a
stump with my disc sander; and I made my own slappers. My total investment,
including the dollies and metal hammers that I bought, was less than $150.

It was fun to play with it and to get an idea of what's involved. And I
could see how some people get a lot of pleasure out of it. Doing it well is
a real art.

If you look at the Tinman's pages, you'll see some of the art at its highest
level.

--
Ed Huntress

RogerN wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"RogerN" wrote in message
...
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Roger,
To do this right, you need to make a significant investment in sheet
metal tools, which should include a sheer, a brake, rolls, a shrinker,
sheet metal hammers, dollies planishing pillows and hammers, as well as
several other less significant items. Most of the cost of these can be
avoided if you use preformed replacement panels. Of course, this will
not help you achieve the skill set of hand forming custom panels, but it
does make economic sense. Please also note, that back yard repairs done
incorrectly will devalue the vehicle. Please also note that the
investment required is not just money, but significant time and very
hard work. There are very few people with these old fashioned skill sets
still alive today. You will not achieve these with just the experience
from one vehicle. Another, not well understood fact is that the sheet
metal used in vehicles today is much thinner than what used to be used.
Consequently, almost all panel damage results in stretched metal, making
panel repair impractical. Additionally, the odds of you achieving the
skill set you wish to have is about "0" without instruction from a
master. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you should go into this
with your eyes open.
Steve

"RogerN" wrote in message
news The part I want to do the metal work from raw sheet is a hole in the door
probably done by Bobcat, the guy I purchased from used it to pull his
Bobcat around in his landscaping business. So, that part is sort of in
the middle of the door where the metal is fairly flat and it doesn't look
rusted, looks like someone put house paint over it. I don't think I want
to try to re-skin the door for the hole. The other metal shaping toys
are just for fun, I'd like to play with sheet metal and try to learn to
shape it like they do on the Chopper TV programs. For the rusted thru
above the wheel fenders I plan to try ready made replacement panels.
Other than that there are many places where it is scratched or banged up
a little, this truck was used to do work and shows is.

RogerN
Take a look at the Tinman's site:

http://www.tinmantech.com/

You've gotten good advice from others about the frustration of working
with today's thin body sheet metal, which is often a HSLA (high-strength
low-alloy) that is particularly nasty. It work-hardens if you look at it
cross-eyed.

However, you can have a heck of a lot of fun learning to shape other kinds
of sheet metal. I've tried it, with the sandbag and stump methods. I
produce something that looks like waves in a stormy sea. g Better luck
to you. It requires persistence.

--
Ed Huntress

I guess you weren't trying to make waves in a stormy sea? You can always
sell your failures as modern art!

RogerN



Most of the complex parts can be found as patch panels. You basically
cut out the old. Leave a small lip, flange the lip so the panel sets
flush and MIG or TIG them in. Grind the welds smooth, then apply a THIN
layer of filler and board sand it flat. Then use a good primer and
finish coat it. Unless you have a nice temperature controlled storage
place and don't plan on moving the vehicle while your working on it you
may want to shoot the panel with paint as soon as you get each panel
done. Doesn't have to be a perfect coat but primer on it's own have a
nasty habit of being hygroscopic.

--
Steve W.
(\___/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Jun 3, 7:45*pm, "Steve W." wrote:

Most of the complex parts can be found as patch panels. You basically
cut out the old. Leave a small lip, flange the lip so the panel sets
flush and MIG or TIG them in. Grind the welds smooth, then apply a THIN
layer of filler and board sand it flat. Then use a good primer and
finish coat it. Unless you have a nice temperature controlled storage
place and don't plan on moving the vehicle while your working on it you
may want to shoot the panel with paint as soon as you get each panel
done. Doesn't have to be a perfect coat but primer on it's own have a
nasty habit of being hygroscopic.

--
Steve W.
(\___/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Get a current copy of Hot Rod Magazine. Nice article on patching floor
pans.

Paul

Many people go to Eastwood.
http://www.eastwood.com/?srccode=ga2...FSCjiQodVEsbFw
I've never used them myself so I can't give a personal recommendation.
Karl

I have used Eastwood for several years, I find them to be just what they say
they are fair priced and quick.

Roger Paskell

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip

I guess you weren't trying to make waves in a stormy sea? You can always
sell your failures as modern art!

RogerN

What failures? They were successful experiments. g

I was working 3003 aluminum, and it's tricky to shrink it with hand tools.
It can be done; you just need to develop some expertise.

Like a lot of metalworking pursuits, you have a few choices. If you want
to build replica bodies or something, you'll need all the tools or a
lifetime of learning and practice. (You'll still need a lot of both, even
with all the tools.) Or you can confine yourself to making simple patch
panels without much crown, and do it all with hand tools (and the flanger
that a couple of folks have mentioned) -- and patience.

I had no interest in making a lifetime hobby out of it, so I just tried
the hand methods. I made my own wooden hammers and sand bag; I hollowed
out a stump with my disc sander; and I made my own slappers. My total
investment, including the dollies and metal hammers that I bought, was
less than $150.

It was fun to play with it and to get an idea of what's involved. And I
could see how some people get a lot of pleasure out of it. Doing it well
is a real art.

If you look at the Tinman's pages, you'll see some of the art at its
highest level.

--
Ed Huntress

I'm not wanting to spend the time and money to do auto body professionally
or anything like that. The part I would like to form is almost flat, I need
to patch a hole in the side of a door, not much shaping to it. One idea I
have for rust repair, not sure if it's any good, is to make a male mold by
building up a panel with bondo and shaping. Then use that bondo patch to
make a mold to lay up fiber glass repair panels. Trim the sheet metal back,
knock out the temporary bondo plug used for the mold, and glue the
fiberglass patch to the metal. The idea being that the fiberglass wouldn't
rust in a place where the metal did.

RogerN

"JR North" wrote in message
...
http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth/paint1.html
http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth/acc2.html

BTDT. The HF guns are excellent. You need a good DA sander, an inline
sander, and a good sanding block for finishing. Also good quality
sandpaper. The cheap stuff will makethe job much harder.

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/
see sander.txt and the accociated jpgs.

JC Whitney sells a lot of replacement body repair panels for trucks
http://www.jcwhitney.com/
sure to find what you need there.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Thanks for all the info and links!

RogerN

One thing I'm wanting to find out about is feathering paint. For example,
if I have a spot to repair, I would sand down the spot and feather the edges
to the good paint surface. Then in spraying first coat on the spot, 2nd
coat covers a little larger area, and the 3rd coat covers a larger area
still. Then after that I guess you use rubbing compound to smooth it all
out? If I understand this correctly you are applying the most paint where
it's been sanded down the most and getting the new spray thinner as the
original paint is thicker (sanded less). If I were capable of doing this
perfect the paint would be the same thickness in the touch up area as the
factory paint is in other parts of the body.

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip

I guess you weren't trying to make waves in a stormy sea? You can
always sell your failures as modern art!

RogerN

What failures? They were successful experiments. g

I was working 3003 aluminum, and it's tricky to shrink it with hand
tools. It can be done; you just need to develop some expertise.

Like a lot of metalworking pursuits, you have a few choices. If you want
to build replica bodies or something, you'll need all the tools or a
lifetime of learning and practice. (You'll still need a lot of both, even
with all the tools.) Or you can confine yourself to making simple patch
panels without much crown, and do it all with hand tools (and the flanger
that a couple of folks have mentioned) -- and patience.

I had no interest in making a lifetime hobby out of it, so I just tried
the hand methods. I made my own wooden hammers and sand bag; I hollowed
out a stump with my disc sander; and I made my own slappers. My total
investment, including the dollies and metal hammers that I bought, was
less than $150.

It was fun to play with it and to get an idea of what's involved. And I
could see how some people get a lot of pleasure out of it. Doing it well
is a real art.

If you look at the Tinman's pages, you'll see some of the art at its
highest level.

--
Ed Huntress

I'm not wanting to spend the time and money to do auto body professionally
or anything like that. The part I would like to form is almost flat, I
need to patch a hole in the side of a door, not much shaping to it. One
idea I have for rust repair, not sure if it's any good, is to make a male
mold by building up a panel with bondo and shaping. Then use that bondo
patch to make a mold to lay up fiber glass repair panels. Trim the sheet
metal back, knock out the temporary bondo plug used for the mold, and glue
the fiberglass patch to the metal. The idea being that the fiberglass
wouldn't rust in a place where the metal did.

RogerN

Interesting thought. I would anticipate trouble. I made extensive fiberglass
rust-repair patches on my mother's '69 T-bird, in the '70s. I was pretty
good with fiberglass then because I had been a bonder at Ranger Yachts. I
used Plaster of Paris to make a male mold over the rusted-out areas, and
then to pull the female mold from that. That, too, is a material I had a lot
of experience with at the time.

We could write a book about this but here are some basic issues: Although
Bondo is filled polyester, and it works as a body filler, it doesn't get a
very good bond to steel. The chemical bond is almost nonexistent; most of
what you get is a mechanical, cogging bond with freshly ground and roughened
metal. I realize it isn't Bondo that you're talking about for the final
patch, but you should be aware that polyester in general makes a lousy
adhesive, compared to epoxy.

I actually used epoxy on the fiberglass cloth to make my first patches,
because it gets a much better bond to steel. It's very difficult to work
with on vertical surfaces and with fiberglass cloth (you *must* use cloth
and mat made for use with epoxy if you're going to use that stuff for your
resin). Polyester is much easier. You can consider making patches out of
polyester and fiberglass and then bonding them to the steel with epoxy, but
polyester and epoxy, too, get only a weak bond. The bond between them is
almost all mechanical, too, because epoxy doesn't bond to styrene, which
makes up a fair amount of the polyester resin. You also have to be super
careful to remove the amine blush if you're bonding *to* hardened epoxy, and
the wax if you're bonding *to* hardened polyester. Soap and water remove the
blush. Sanding is useless to remove amine; it just spreads the amine around.
Use acetone to remove the wax from polyester. It will pull off some of the
surface styrene, too, which will help.

Then you have issues with different coefficients of thermal expansion for
steel and fiberglass-reinforced resin. I had one patch pop off at one end on
a hot day. I'm not certain why, but I think the differential expansion put a
lot of stress on the bond.

Anyway, you may find it works perfectly for you, or it may be a mess. One
thing I can tell you for su it's a lot harder than you would think, to
get the patch level with the steel and smooth. You could cheat with Bondo,
but then you have more weakness.

Maybe it will be no problem. But I doubt it.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
...
On Jun 2, 4:19 pm, "RogerN" wrote:


Any recommendations on paint? I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.

I get my auto paint at Finishmaster - sometimes you can get good deals on
ebay too - don't expect to pay $5 per gallon

On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 23:50:44 -0400
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

big snip
Then you have issues with different coefficients of thermal expansion for
steel and fiberglass-reinforced resin. I had one patch pop off at one end on
a hot day. I'm not certain why, but I think the differential expansion put a
lot of stress on the bond.

My tutor liked fiberglass, has worked well for me, takes some learning
though...

I've had the best luck with mat (see no use for cloth in body repair),
resin and sometimes adding some gel for a thicker consistency. Try to
have some fiberglass/resin behind, metal and fiberglass/resin on top. In
other words sandwich the metal a bit in between. Some holes drilled
through the metal, with some fiber & resin oozing through seems to work
too. Make sure you lay enough fiberglass (thick enough) to be able to
sand it off smooth/flush with the original surface. On a hot, dry day
you can keep working & playing with the patch till it starts to set,
can be helpful in vertical applications. Can get you in a lot of
trouble too if it sets too fast and you aren't quite ready for it
Rough up any low spots and fill with bondo/filler. Prime, paint.

Fiberglass has the advantage of not burning off the backside of the
metal panel which may be hard to get at afterwards to rustproof.

If I was just doing some touch up on a truck like you describe, I would
see how well a rattle can Rustoleum type white paint matched. Learned a
long time ago it isn't worth the hassle of trying for a super-duper
paint job in ones driveway or dirty garage. I've had rust reappear
overnight, didn't allow myself enough time to get a paint gun loaded up
and shoot it after rust cleanup...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Jun 3, 9:29*pm, "RogerN" wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message

...







"RogerN" wrote in message
om...
snip

I guess you weren't trying to make waves in a stormy sea? *You can always
sell your failures as modern art!

RogerN

What failures? They were successful experiments. g

I was working 3003 aluminum, and it's tricky to shrink it with hand tools.
It can be done; you just need to develop some expertise.

Like a lot of metalworking pursuits, you have a few choices. If you want
to build replica bodies or something, you'll need all the tools or a
lifetime of learning and practice. (You'll still need a lot of both, even
with all the tools.) Or you can confine yourself to making simple patch
panels without much crown, and do it all with hand tools (and the flanger
that a couple of folks have mentioned) -- and patience.

I had no interest in making a lifetime hobby out of it, so I just tried
the hand methods. I made my own wooden hammers and sand bag; I hollowed
out a stump with my disc sander; and I made my own slappers. My total
investment, including the dollies and metal hammers that I bought, was
less than $150.

It was fun to play with it and to get an idea of what's involved. And I
could see how some people get a lot of pleasure out of it. Doing it well
is a real art.

If you look at the Tinman's pages, you'll see some of the art at its
highest level.

--
Ed Huntress

I'm not wanting to spend the time and money to do auto body professionally
or anything like that. *The part I would like to form is almost flat, I need
to patch a hole in the side of a door, not much shaping to it. *One idea I
have for rust repair, not sure if it's any good, is to make a male mold by
building up a panel with bondo and shaping. *Then use that bondo patch to
make a mold to lay up fiber glass repair panels. *Trim the sheet metal back,
knock out the temporary bondo plug used for the mold, and glue the
fiberglass patch to the metal. *The idea being that the fiberglass wouldn't
rust in a place where the metal did.

RogerN- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Before I had welding equipment, I did a bunch of that on the VW. Some
held, some didn't. The stuff that held was done with fiberglass mat
and repair gel from one of the local chain parts places. The approach
was to cut the hole back to solid metal, ding the edges in slightly,
remove rust and paint to bare metal, hit everything with a phosphate
rust-converter wash, then clean everything off to squeakiness with
acetone(was cheap when I did it). I cut a chunk of mat for the back
side, one for the front side and then made up a holder from thin
welding filler rod. This had an L hook bent into it, the purpose was
to hold the back in place while plastering the front piece on. The
idea was to sandwich the existing metal at the edges, approximate the
contours of the surface and hold things together while the gel set,
about 5-10 minutes in the summer. I had a poly board made for mixing
bondo that I used for the gel and a bunch of scraper/spatula
applicators of various sizes intended for bondo. They worked well for
impregnating the mat and anything stuck on just popped off
afterwards. After the stuff set up, I left it for a day and went at
it with body files, sander and block. Looked OK after it was primed
and painted, the places where I filled in the rocker panel holes don't
even show 10 years later. Was not so lucky on inner fender holes, had
to be redone about 5 years later. Probably too much flexing and
impacts from road trash and rocks. Now I'd just weld patches on. So
it CAN be done. If the damage is in an area where fuel lines run and
you'd rather not drop the tank and flush things out, fiberglass
repairs might be the answer. Need absolutely clean metal for it to
stick. I really liked the gel for this, regular resin would just run
away.

Stan

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:45:43 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:


Most of the complex parts can be found as patch panels. You basically
cut out the old. Leave a small lip, flange the lip so the panel sets
flush and MIG or TIG them in.

Or even braze (or solder) them
Grind the welds smooth, then apply a THIN
layer of filler and board sand it flat. Then use a good primer and
finish coat it. Unless you have a nice temperature controlled storage
place and don't plan on moving the vehicle while your working on it you
may want to shoot the panel with paint as soon as you get each panel
done. Doesn't have to be a perfect coat but primer on it's own have a
nasty habit of being hygroscopic.

On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 22:40:56 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

One thing I'm wanting to find out about is feathering paint. For example,
if I have a spot to repair, I would sand down the spot and feather the edges
to the good paint surface. Then in spraying first coat on the spot, 2nd
coat covers a little larger area, and the 3rd coat covers a larger area
still. Then after that I guess you use rubbing compound to smooth it all
out? If I understand this correctly you are applying the most paint where
it's been sanded down the most and getting the new spray thinner as the
original paint is thicker (sanded less). If I were capable of doing this
perfect the paint would be the same thickness in the touch up area as the
factory paint is in other parts of the body.

RogerN

Much simpler to just use a fast-build primer - feather that, and paint
the whole panel (door)

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...


Interesting thought. I would anticipate trouble. I made extensive
fiberglass rust-repair patches on my mother's '69 T-bird, in the '70s. I
was pretty good with fiberglass then because I had been a bonder at Ranger
Yachts. I used Plaster of Paris to make a male mold over the rusted-out
areas, and then to pull the female mold from that. That, too, is a
material I had a lot of experience with at the time.

We could write a book about this but here are some basic issues: Although
Bondo is filled polyester, and it works as a body filler, it doesn't get a
very good bond to steel. The chemical bond is almost nonexistent; most of
what you get is a mechanical, cogging bond with freshly ground and
roughened metal. I realize it isn't Bondo that you're talking about for
the final patch, but you should be aware that polyester in general makes a
lousy adhesive, compared to epoxy.

I actually used epoxy on the fiberglass cloth to make my first patches,
because it gets a much better bond to steel. It's very difficult to work
with on vertical surfaces and with fiberglass cloth (you *must* use cloth
and mat made for use with epoxy if you're going to use that stuff for your
resin). Polyester is much easier. You can consider making patches out of
polyester and fiberglass and then bonding them to the steel with epoxy,
but polyester and epoxy, too, get only a weak bond. The bond between them
is almost all mechanical, too, because epoxy doesn't bond to styrene,
which makes up a fair amount of the polyester resin. You also have to be
super careful to remove the amine blush if you're bonding *to* hardened
epoxy, and the wax if you're bonding *to* hardened polyester. Soap and
water remove the blush. Sanding is useless to remove amine; it just
spreads the amine around. Use acetone to remove the wax from polyester. It
will pull off some of the surface styrene, too, which will help.

Then you have issues with different coefficients of thermal expansion for
steel and fiberglass-reinforced resin. I had one patch pop off at one end
on a hot day. I'm not certain why, but I think the differential expansion
put a lot of stress on the bond.

Anyway, you may find it works perfectly for you, or it may be a mess. One
thing I can tell you for su it's a lot harder than you would think, to
get the patch level with the steel and smooth. You could cheat with Bondo,
but then you have more weakness.

Maybe it will be no problem. But I doubt it.

--
Ed Huntress


My fiberglass experience is limited to once making a fiberglass part for an
R/C helicopter and making a couple of R/C boats by making a foam hull shape
and glassing it. Also put glass cloth over a wooden model R/C hydroplane.
I've always used epoxy with glass cloth, most of my glass cloth came from
Wal-Mart, some from hobby suppliers. I also have a fiberglass kit for
training to build homebuilt aircraft with the glass over foam method, but I
never used the stuff yet.

So my fiberglass experience is limited but varied. I thought maybe cut out
the rusted area, treat the metal remaining, and epoxy (or better) the glass
part into place.

RogerN

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 22:40:56 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

One thing I'm wanting to find out about is feathering paint. For example,
if I have a spot to repair, I would sand down the spot and feather the
edges
to the good paint surface. Then in spraying first coat on the spot, 2nd
coat covers a little larger area, and the 3rd coat covers a larger area
still. Then after that I guess you use rubbing compound to smooth it all
out? If I understand this correctly you are applying the most paint where
it's been sanded down the most and getting the new spray thinner as the
original paint is thicker (sanded less). If I were capable of doing this
perfect the paint would be the same thickness in the touch up area as the
factory paint is in other parts of the body.

RogerN

Much simpler to just use a fast-build primer - feather that, and paint
the whole panel (door)


What about for just a paint chip area (front of hood perhaps)? Would it be
better to repaint the whole hood for a few chips or sand, paint, and
compound?

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
news

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...


Interesting thought. I would anticipate trouble. I made extensive
fiberglass rust-repair patches on my mother's '69 T-bird, in the '70s. I
was pretty good with fiberglass then because I had been a bonder at
Ranger Yachts. I used Plaster of Paris to make a male mold over the
rusted-out areas, and then to pull the female mold from that. That, too,
is a material I had a lot of experience with at the time.

We could write a book about this but here are some basic issues: Although
Bondo is filled polyester, and it works as a body filler, it doesn't get
a very good bond to steel. The chemical bond is almost nonexistent; most
of what you get is a mechanical, cogging bond with freshly ground and
roughened metal. I realize it isn't Bondo that you're talking about for
the final patch, but you should be aware that polyester in general makes
a lousy adhesive, compared to epoxy.

I actually used epoxy on the fiberglass cloth to make my first patches,
because it gets a much better bond to steel. It's very difficult to work
with on vertical surfaces and with fiberglass cloth (you *must* use cloth
and mat made for use with epoxy if you're going to use that stuff for
your resin). Polyester is much easier. You can consider making patches
out of polyester and fiberglass and then bonding them to the steel with
epoxy, but polyester and epoxy, too, get only a weak bond. The bond
between them is almost all mechanical, too, because epoxy doesn't bond to
styrene, which makes up a fair amount of the polyester resin. You also
have to be super careful to remove the amine blush if you're bonding *to*
hardened epoxy, and the wax if you're bonding *to* hardened polyester.
Soap and water remove the blush. Sanding is useless to remove amine; it
just spreads the amine around. Use acetone to remove the wax from
polyester. It will pull off some of the surface styrene, too, which will
help.

Then you have issues with different coefficients of thermal expansion for
steel and fiberglass-reinforced resin. I had one patch pop off at one end
on a hot day. I'm not certain why, but I think the differential expansion
put a lot of stress on the bond.

Anyway, you may find it works perfectly for you, or it may be a mess. One
thing I can tell you for su it's a lot harder than you would think, to
get the patch level with the steel and smooth. You could cheat with
Bondo, but then you have more weakness.

Maybe it will be no problem. But I doubt it.

--
Ed Huntress


My fiberglass experience is limited to once making a fiberglass part for
an R/C helicopter and making a couple of R/C boats by making a foam hull
shape and glassing it. Also put glass cloth over a wooden model R/C
hydroplane. I've always used epoxy with glass cloth, most of my glass
cloth came from Wal-Mart, some from hobby suppliers. I also have a
fiberglass kit for training to build homebuilt aircraft with the glass
over foam method, but I never used the stuff yet.

So my fiberglass experience is limited but varied. I thought maybe cut
out the rusted area, treat the metal remaining, and epoxy (or better) the
glass part into place.

RogerN

I've used a lot of fiberglass, with both epoxy and polyester (and some
dabbling with vinylester), and what I tell people who want to try things
like you're suggesting is to do it, and see what works for you. You can
always cut it out and start over. There are standardized methods like the
mat patches discussed by others in this thread, and they work as well as
anything, but if you're talking about making a male and female mold, that
ain't a standard method for vehicle body patches. You'll have to work it out
on your own. As I said, I tried much the same thing, with mixed results,
over 30 years ago.

I went through 50 gallons of polyester every two or three days when I worked
at Ranger Yachts. I'd just as soon forget it, to tell you the truth. But
working in shirts covered with globs of polyester and fiberglass needles
every day, and leaving the seat of my car bloody as I drove home, from the
rips in my butt that came from rubbing up against raw edges of hull layups
before they were trimmed, did give me material for an essay that landed me a
writing job at McGraw-Hill. d8-)

We could talk about this forever but you really have to just do it and see.
The few basics we've discussed, such as the inter-bonding capabilities of
steel, polyester, and epoxy, and treating the hardened resin for further
bonds, may save you some heartbreak. But making shapes with the material
itself really requires hands-on experience.

Regarding the cloth and mat: The binder in regular mat is made to dissolve
in polyester resin (actually, I think it's the styrene that dissolves the
binder). It will not dissolve in epoxy. If you use epoxy with common mat,
you will have one hell of a mess and you probably won't be able to wet it
thoroughly. I suppose you know that you can't use polyester with styrofoam.
The foam will dissolve. It works fine with epoxy, but use polyurethane foam
if you're going to use polyester resin.

Cloth is less of a problem, but the "chrome" finish on boat repair cloth,
and most cloth you can buy through ordinary retail channels, is made to get
a good bond with polyester. I'm told it doesn't bond properly with epoxy. My
experience with it is inconclusive -- I can wet it out with epoxy, but I
don't know how good the bonds are, compared to layups made with the proper
cloth. Commercial users of epoxy/cloth layups use cloth made specifically
for use with epoxy resin. If you want an expert answer, call the guys at
WEST System. They're very helpful, in my experience. And they really know
their stuff.

Treat it as a learning experience and you may well enjoy it. But expect
things to go some way you didn't expect. It's very hard to anticipate how
that material will behave until you've had some experience with the specific
kind of application.

And remember, epoxy drools. g It's anti-thixotropic, and thickening it up
only makes the situation a little better. Adding fumed silica will make it
slightly thixotropic and it does help. Polyester is much easier to work
with. They use it as the basis of Bondo for some very good reasons, even
though it's a lot weaker than epoxy, and it doesn't bond to steel nearly as
well.

--
Ed Huntress

"JR North" wrote in message
...
Nope. You can't use paint to fill an area. It should already be
uniform before shooting. Not even a good idea to load an area up with
primer. It shrinks over time, and the repair will start to show after
a few months. Use body filler, and feather that to the best uniform
surface you can. Prime, finish sand to 320 THEN paint.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

If the body filler is level with the existing paint, then the new paint
would be above that level, wouldn't you want your body filler to be 1 paint
thickness below the surface of the old paint? For example, if you sand off
0.004" of paint, fill that with body filler, then shoot it with 0.004" of
new paint, the final surface is 0.004 above the old surface. However it
would seem that if you removed 0.004" paint, then repainted with 0.004" of
paint, the surface should be even. Even if your paint shrunk 25% you would
have paint 0.001" low instead of 0.003" high.

But like someone mentioned earlier, it's probably easier to spray an entire
panel than it is to spray a spot and try to blend, not sure though.

RogerN

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:45:43 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:


Most of the complex parts can be found as patch panels. You basically
cut out the old. Leave a small lip, flange the lip so the panel sets
flush and MIG or TIG them in.

Or even braze (or solder) them

The traditional 1930s method was to soft-solder the patch to the panel, using
excess solder, and then to file and then wet sand everything smooth and
well-faired for painting.

http://www.automedia.com/Getting_the_Lead_On/res20041001ld/1

Real automotive Body Solder is 70% lead 30% tin, but for something this simple
ordinary plumbers solder (50-50) may do.

Anyway, one could tack weld the pre-cleaned patch into the pre-cleaned recess,
and then do the soldering. This will be very strong, and will not have any
mismatch of temperature coefficient of linear expansion.

Joe Gwinn

"JR North" wrote in message
...
You are focused too much on the thickness thing. Paint layer is
acually very thin. Depending on the quality of the factory
application, you may find the sealer/base coat/ paint layer to be
several thou thick. You can't make this up with just paint, and as I
said, not good to load it up with primer. Unless your truck is gloss
black, it *doesn't matter* if the new paint is a thou high, what
matters more is the feathering/ transition area, and, of course, color
match.
Pointless to spot repair a lot of small areas to color-it's going to
end up looking like Hell. DA the whole thing after you do the metal
work , and let Maaco shoot it.
revisit
http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth/paint1.html

JR
Dweller in the cellar


Ok, I can see how it would be difficult to rebuild the surface precision
enough, though someday I may try just for the learning. I was thinking of
sanding down original primer, paint and clear and trying to replace with
near equal thickness of primer, base, and clear (My 1992 truck doesn't use
clear though, saves a step).

I guess an interesting thing would be to see if any of the local colleges
would like to repair my truck body for a reasonable price, I've heard of
some doing this for about the price of materials. But my goal is not so
much to have a perfect truck body as it is to learn some bodywork and
painting skills I can apply on other vehicles. Kind of like when you make a
hammer in High School metal shop class, the hammer is of little value but
what you learn by making it can be valuable.

Anyway, after I get my experimenting and practicing done to my satisfaction,
I may take it and have the whole thing sprayed. I figure my home compressor
will be sufficient for touch up and detail but I don't think I could paint a
car with that small of a compressor (though I could hook up 2 of my
compressors and probably have enough air).

RogerN

On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 21:19:01 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 22:40:56 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

One thing I'm wanting to find out about is feathering paint. For example,
if I have a spot to repair, I would sand down the spot and feather the
edges
to the good paint surface. Then in spraying first coat on the spot, 2nd
coat covers a little larger area, and the 3rd coat covers a larger area
still. Then after that I guess you use rubbing compound to smooth it all
out? If I understand this correctly you are applying the most paint where
it's been sanded down the most and getting the new spray thinner as the
original paint is thicker (sanded less). If I were capable of doing this
perfect the paint would be the same thickness in the touch up area as the
factory paint is in other parts of the body.

RogerN

Much simpler to just use a fast-build primer - feather that, and paint
the whole panel (door)


What about for just a paint chip area (front of hood perhaps)? Would it be
better to repaint the whole hood for a few chips or sand, paint, and
compound?

RogerN

If you want the repair to "disappear" do the whole hood. Most paints
today are spec'ed as whole panel, and don't blend well.
Sand the whole hood through the clear-cote to colour, clean out the
chips, acid treat them, fill them, feather them, and repaint the whole
hood.

On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 05:45:15 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:


"JR North" wrote in message
.. .
Nope. You can't use paint to fill an area. It should already be
uniform before shooting. Not even a good idea to load an area up with
primer. It shrinks over time, and the repair will start to show after
a few months. Use body filler, and feather that to the best uniform
surface you can. Prime, finish sand to 320 THEN paint.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

If the body filler is level with the existing paint, then the new paint
would be above that level, wouldn't you want your body filler to be 1 paint
thickness below the surface of the old paint? For example, if you sand off
0.004" of paint, fill that with body filler, then shoot it with 0.004" of
new paint, the final surface is 0.004 above the old surface. However it
would seem that if you removed 0.004" paint, then repainted with 0.004" of
paint, the surface should be even. Even if your paint shrunk 25% you would
have paint 0.001" low instead of 0.003" high.

But like someone mentioned earlier, it's probably easier to spray an entire
panel than it is to spray a spot and try to blend, not sure though.

RogerN

A pro body man will do the whole panel.. A lot of "so-called" body men
will try to "blend" the paint - and the clear-coat will peel off in
less than 2 years.

I won't let even an insurance job "blend in" a panel on any of my
vehicles any more.

Kid brother used to be one of the best auto-body men (and painters)
around until he got sensitized to isocyanates. Really nasty stuff.

On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 23:10:15 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


Regarding the cloth and mat: The binder in regular mat is made to dissolve
in polyester resin (actually, I think it's the styrene that dissolves the
binder). It will not dissolve in epoxy. If you use epoxy with common mat,
you will have one hell of a mess and you probably won't be able to wet it
thoroughly. I suppose you know that you can't use polyester with styrofoam.
The foam will dissolve. It works fine with epoxy, but use polyurethane foam
if you're going to use polyester resin.

Cloth is less of a problem, but the "chrome" finish on boat repair cloth,
and most cloth you can buy through ordinary retail channels, is made to get
a good bond with polyester. I'm told it doesn't bond properly with epoxy. My
experience with it is inconclusive -- I can wet it out with epoxy, but I
don't know how good the bonds are, compared to layups made with the proper
cloth. Commercial users of epoxy/cloth layups use cloth made specifically
for use with epoxy resin. If you want an expert answer, call the guys at
WEST System. They're very helpful, in my experience. And they really know
their stuff.

Hello Ed,

My understanding is that fiberglass *mat* is made specifically to work
with polyester resin, as you've said. But fiberglass *cloth* seems to
work well with either epoxy or polyester. I have not yet seen a
vendor who sells different kinds of cloth for epoxy and for
polyester---though I'm certainly willing to be proved wrong... :-)

I've been told that there are certain surface active agents (soaps, if
you will) that may be added to epoxy resin; they displace water and
enhance bonding of the epoxy to the glass. Most users I know do not
use these agents, though.

The rocketry bunch at www.rocketryonline.com and
www.rocketryplanet.com does a lot of work with fiberglass---literally
thousands of large rockets have been built this way--- and it's almost
exclusively with epoxy as the binder. A lot of these guys do some
work indoors and I'm pretty sure that most would be divorced or kilt
or worse if they used polyester resin. :-)
--
Best -- Terry

On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:01:37 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

Anyway, after I get my experimenting and practicing done to my satisfaction,
I may take it and have the whole thing sprayed. I figure my home compressor
will be sufficient for touch up and detail but I don't think I could paint a
car with that small of a compressor (though I could hook up 2 of my
compressors and probably have enough air).

Roger,

I painted the right front fender of my Corolla with an ersatz HVLP
paint gun and my home compressor. The compressor is 110 v 14 amp (I
think) so it's definitely not a monster. It's a rollabout job with
two tires. The paint gun was an el-cheapo HF HVLP gun, about $15. I
had to thin the paint rather a lot but it still worked well.

The compressor was originally purchased to "paint" the tile and
bathtub in the girls' bathroom, using a similar but larger gun. (For
various reasons we couldn't easily replace the tub during renovation,
and 1960's Vomitous Beige-Pink was considered an unsatisfactory color
by the wife). Worked beautifully, and no one who has seen the job has
ever guessed that it was a re-coat except the guy who noticed the one
spot where it ran a bit.
--
Best -- Terry

On Jun 2, 10:19*pm, "RogerN" wrote:

Any recommendations on paint? *I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. *That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.


RogerN

Not a recommendation, but a question. Has anyone tried the water
based automotive paints from Du Pont? I have not been able to find
any cost data on them, or comments by users.

Dan

"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 23:10:15 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


Regarding the cloth and mat: The binder in regular mat is made to dissolve
in polyester resin (actually, I think it's the styrene that dissolves the
binder). It will not dissolve in epoxy. If you use epoxy with common mat,
you will have one hell of a mess and you probably won't be able to wet it
thoroughly. I suppose you know that you can't use polyester with
styrofoam.
The foam will dissolve. It works fine with epoxy, but use polyurethane
foam
if you're going to use polyester resin.

Cloth is less of a problem, but the "chrome" finish on boat repair cloth,
and most cloth you can buy through ordinary retail channels, is made to
get
a good bond with polyester. I'm told it doesn't bond properly with epoxy.
My
experience with it is inconclusive -- I can wet it out with epoxy, but I
don't know how good the bonds are, compared to layups made with the proper
cloth. Commercial users of epoxy/cloth layups use cloth made specifically
for use with epoxy resin. If you want an expert answer, call the guys at
WEST System. They're very helpful, in my experience. And they really know
their stuff.

Hello Ed,

My understanding is that fiberglass *mat* is made specifically to work
with polyester resin, as you've said. But fiberglass *cloth* seems to
work well with either epoxy or polyester. I have not yet seen a
vendor who sells different kinds of cloth for epoxy and for
polyester---though I'm certainly willing to be proved wrong... :-)

It may be, Terry. When I was working with lots of the material, some source
I read said that large-scale users of epoxy for layups used a grade of glass
cloth that didn't have the "chrome" finish used on cloth made for polyester,
because the chrome finish wasn't compatible with epoxy. As I said, I don't
know, because I've not used that much of it and never ran any tests.

However, at the time, S-glass was available with and without the finish. I
bought some for a project, without the finish, for use with epoxy. Again, I
never ran any comparative tests to see how it worked out. My tests are kind
of crude, anyway. g


I've been told that there are certain surface active agents (soaps, if
you will) that may be added to epoxy resin; they displace water and
enhance bonding of the epoxy to the glass. Most users I know do not
use these agents, though.

It's become very sophisticated in recent years. I'd have to spend some time
catching up to see what's available today. BTW, I was using pre-preg at the
end of that time, which I grew to really like. If you refrigerate it just
right, you can handle it like a sheet of rubber. It's really good for some
home projects but you need to know someone in the business, because you have
to buy pretty large quantities of it at a time. I was getting mine from
Zeston Corp. until they sold out to Johns-Manville. They'd let me cut off as
much as I wanted. What a deal! Most of that stuff is A-B cure, but Zeston
had some with an amine hardener, or some other RTC hardener, that let you
cure it at room temperature.


The rocketry bunch at www.rocketryonline.com and
www.rocketryplanet.com does a lot of work with fiberglass---literally
thousands of large rockets have been built this way--- and it's almost
exclusively with epoxy as the binder. A lot of these guys do some
work indoors and I'm pretty sure that most would be divorced or kilt
or worse if they used polyester resin. :-)
--
Best -- Terry

Their rockets would droop, anyway. g I'll bet they know the latest. I'll
have to save those links. Thanks.

BTW, what's the latest word on vinylester? I haven't seen much about it
recently. R.Q. Riley uses it for his carbon-fiber recumbent bicycle,
because, he says, you can use it with carbon fiber without the need to
vacuum-bag it. Do the rocket guys use vinylester for anything?

--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
...
On Jun 2, 10:19 pm, "RogerN" wrote:

Any recommendations on paint? I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.


RogerN

Not a recommendation, but a question. Has anyone tried the water
based automotive paints from Du Pont? I have not been able to find
any cost data on them, or comments by users.

Dan


Has to be good. Is all that is allowed for color coat in at least one
state. California.

"JR North" wrote in message
...
You are focused too much on the thickness thing. Paint layer is
acually very thin. Depending on the quality of the factory
application, you may find the sealer/base coat/ paint layer to be
several thou thick. You can't make this up with just paint, and as I
said, not good to load it up with primer. Unless your truck is gloss
black, it *doesn't matter* if the new paint is a thou high, what
matters more is the feathering/ transition area, and, of course, color
match.
Pointless to spot repair a lot of small areas to color-it's going to
end up looking like Hell. DA the whole thing after you do the metal
work , and let Maaco shoot it.
revisit
http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth/paint1.html

JR
Dweller in the cellar

I got a chance to do a little playing this weekend. A trip to the auto
supply turned up a Dupli-Color spray can in Oxford white for something to
play with. I took my Porter Cable random orbit sander with 220 grit
paper(the finest I could find for it) and sanded down some areas that needed
touched up. The sand paper was quite aggressive right at first but after a
little wear it seemed OK. After sanding and feathering I wet sanded with
320, then dried and cleaned everything. I shot some self etching primer on
the areas that got to bare metal. Cleaned off everything with wax remover
and sprayed a few coats of paint.

After drying there was a dry area around the area I sprayed, I wet sanded
that area with 1500 until it felt smooth. Then I used rubbing compound with
a wool bonnet on a DeWalt 849 polisher/buffer and polished it all smooth and
glossy. It's difficult to tell what is new paint and what is old paint as
far as transition but the area with new paint has no chips or other
imperfections.

I guess the bottom line would be that it would be better to fix it all and
spray it all, just like JR said. But I was wanting to learn about blending
in an area by sanding and polishing and it seemed to work well enough. That
would be useful for a chip or scratch in a vehicle that doesn't need a paint
job. My truck that I'm practicing on is a 92 F-350 Diesel that started as
an FS truck and was then used in a landscape business, so it's scratched and
dinged all over, except the couple of places I touched it up :-) The truck
seems to have been kept up mechanically and drive train but the body has
been somewhat neglected.

I'm wanting to get a little bondo practice with it, a little more touch up,
and then I'll start trying to sell it. Then I may attempt to touch up
scratches in my Ranger, it has metallic paint and clear coat and I'm sure
will be somewhat more difficult to make a touch up look right.


RogerN

On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:28:17 -0700, "Califbill"
wrote:



wrote in message
...
On Jun 2, 10:19 pm, "RogerN" wrote:

Any recommendations on paint? I went to Napa and they want $98.XX for a
quart of Oxford White, no metallic, no pearl, no clear, just plain white
paint. That's OK if that is what it should cost, just want a reasonable
competitive price.


RogerN

Not a recommendation, but a question. Has anyone tried the water
based automotive paints from Du Pont? I have not been able to find
any cost data on them, or comments by users.

Dan


Has to be good. Is all that is allowed for color coat in at least one
state. California.


Used almost exclusively by american manufacturers - and very
extensively in automotive refinishing shops across North America and
Europe.

Here's a weird idea, could you use a computer scanner for paint matching?
Scan some of the original paint, get an average CYMK or similar reading on
an area, get some readings scanning base colors and figure out how much of
what to mix, try a sample, read with scanner, adjust for better match...
May have a lot of trouble with metalics or candy colors though.