"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:12:20 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

snip
Since this thread started I pulled out a couple of my old ones, and it
looks
to me like the Chinese, if they're trying to cut costs on these things,
are
making a foolish mistake. Vise-Grips are so simple to manufacture that
shaving a few pennies on materials or tooling probably is more a result of
their "make it cheaper" mindset than good economics. But I have to admit
that I haven't looked closely at the Chinese-made models.

The ones that haven't held up well (foreign made) are bent.
I would guess that they used lower grade steel in the
stamped pieces (couldn't hold their shape) and rivets. The
holes for the rivets were sloppier which didn't help either.
The jaws become loose along with the frame parts, ie not in
true alignment when clamped down. These were older samples
probably from 15-20 years ago. From what I've seen just
picking up and handling the newer China versions they
addressed some of these short comings. I would have to abuse
some of the new ones a little to figure out if the steel is
any better or not.

I could probably get some pictures of the weak areas if you
are really curious.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Thanks, Leon, but don't do it for my sake. I've seen enough Chinese Junque
to satisfy my curiosity. g

They make lousy tooling and they shave pennies where it hurts. Left to their
own, they don't seem to know how to make good press tools. Most of their
good products come from plants that have Western or Japanese management.

--
Ed Huntress

I would expect the Chinese Vise-Grip version to look nearly identical to the
USA version.

They can definitely duplicate the overall appearance of nearly any goods, as
they've proven with their many counterfeit goods, but looks don't mean squat
when it comes to durable, reliable tools that last.

I can't think of a single item that I've seen, as far as tools or hardware
made in China, that are equal in quality to the USA's better quality
domestic products.

It's probably a reasonable expectation that breakage and bending of parts of
the Chinese version Vise-Grips will be higher than the USA products. I
expect that the thickness (and/or quality) of the metal will be reduced,
less braze applied, and other shortcuts taken as confidence in the products
fades.

One of the few cost-cutting advantages of having Vise-Grip products made in
China may be lower energy costs (steel making and production equipment
overhead), but I would expect that shipping costs would be equal to, or
greater than the savings.

I don't know, but I've long suspected that imported Chinese products are
essentially subsidized by the US taxpayers, who end up paying a significant
portion of the costs involved in shipping and importation, aside from, and
in addition to the cost of purchasing the goods.
There are too many people parroting the phrase "it's cheaper to make over
there", without considering other possibilities.

Putting most of the Chinese goods into landfill holes and piling dirt on top
may be the answer to rising ocean levels. As the landscape is raised 50-100
feet, rising oceans would be less of a threat.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

Since this thread started I pulled out a couple of my old ones, and it
looks to me like the Chinese, if they're trying to cut costs on these
things, are making a foolish mistake. Vise-Grips are so simple to
manufacture that shaving a few pennies on materials or tooling probably is
more a result of their "make it cheaper" mindset than good economics. But
I have to admit that I haven't looked closely at the Chinese-made models.

The whole thing is mostly blanked steel pieces bent over in a simple
forming die; one piece is a simple forging -- more likely a coining -- and
the jaws are brazed on. Maybe the jaws themselves are a vanadium alloy but
the rest is certainly plain high-carbon steel. The stamping that holds the
top jaw is probably ironed when it's bent.

It was things like this that the Japanese seized on when they started to
move up-market by making quality products. They could make things like
that just as good as Western-made ones, but they still had lower labor
costs and other cost advantages from export assistance and (mostly) bank
ownership that cut their capital costs. Maybe the Chinese are just getting
to that point now.

In any case, given their long life and the importance of their being
well-made, it's still worth it, IMO, to pay for the real thing.

--
Ed Huntress

"Randy" wrote in message
news
Looks like vise grips will be made in China now, the complete factory
is up for auction. I emailed Irwin to see what they say. Let's
see if they reply.

http://www.bidspotter.com/forms/event.php?event=8079

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.


speaking about vice grips...


http://thereifixedit.com/2009/08/30/...ge-1/#comments

(i'm guessing if the (chinese knock off) vice grips fell off the trailer
would come loose?)


further stuff...

http://thereifixedit.com/page/6/

(thought of iggy, the swingset 2/3rd's the way down the page.)



oh, and the rollercoaster... sheesh. (2/3rd's down)

http://thereifixedit.com/page/7/

I am of the opinion that when it comes to essentially simple stuff
such as Vise-Grips, that the Chinese are fully capable of meeting the
original quality specifications. Making vise grips is not rocket
science, all it involves is proper materials and proper tooling
running on automated machines. To say that the Chinese cannot make
same simple stampings as are done the US, is silly.

The reason why so many Chinese products are junk, is because the
American customers or retailers ask them to produce goods at the
bottom of the barrel price, with very lax quality specifications, just
so that the goods sell and last until the customer loses the store
receipt. Ultimately, if they are asked to produce junk all the time,
they might forget a little what it takes to make quality stuff, but it
should not be hard to recall.

In other words, blaming the Chinese for low quality of goods at Kmart
and Walmart, is not really fair, the determination of the quality to
be produced comes from those retailers.

I would expect the Chinese to have more difficulties reproducing the
quality of space shuttles, but not the quality of Vise Grips.

Despite that, I would not be willing to pay the "Irwin Premium".

i

Leon Fisk wrote:

I've worked with several people that didn't have any
Vise-Grip style tools. When they need to be in two places at
once they go find another person to help. I figure out how
to do things by myself, because there isn't anyone else
around and even it there was they have their own job to do.
Vise-Grip style tools allow you to be in two or more places
at the same time, allowing you to complete the job by
yourself.


Last week, I had a way lube system designed for a different machine in the plant held in
place with a pair of vise grips. Worked pretty fine for the two days it took to get the
repair parts to fix the OEM lube system.

Today I needed to draw an arc with a radius of about 12' centered on a square post with 4
tapered reinforcement ribs. I started thinking I could just loop some THHN wire around it
and stretch out the wire and put a pencil through a loop at the far end and draw the arc
on the floor so we could tape and paint. That didn't work, the wire rode up the taper and
changed the radius. So I grabbed 4 vise grips, 1 from Sears, 2 from Irwin, and 1 stamped
Petersen and clamped them to the ribs at the same height. I ran the wire above and below
alternating pliers so it would stay put and drew some nice arcs for the guy that had to
tape and paint.

Vise grips are an improvisational tool.

Wes

"Ignoramus13479" wrote in message
...
I am of the opinion that when it comes to essentially simple stuff
such as Vise-Grips, that the Chinese are fully capable of meeting the
original quality specifications. Making vise grips is not rocket
science, all it involves is proper materials and proper tooling
running on automated machines. To say that the Chinese cannot make
same simple stampings as are done the US, is silly.

The reason why so many Chinese products are junk, is because the
American customers or retailers ask them to produce goods at the
bottom of the barrel price, with very lax quality specifications, just
so that the goods sell and last until the customer loses the store
receipt. Ultimately, if they are asked to produce junk all the time,
they might forget a little what it takes to make quality stuff, but it
should not be hard to recall.

In other words, blaming the Chinese for low quality of goods at Kmart
and Walmart, is not really fair, the determination of the quality to
be produced comes from those retailers.

I would expect the Chinese to have more difficulties reproducing the
quality of space shuttles, but not the quality of Vise Grips.

Despite that, I would not be willing to pay the "Irwin Premium".

i

Have you ever see one of the injection molds they were selling to US
customers four or five years ago, for 1/3 of our price? They looked like
they were made by vo-tech school students who didn't have a teacher.

--
Ed Huntress

Don Foreman wrote:

Very true. Actually, the US excels at making vise grips, too, but not at a
competitive price.

Bingo. Genuine vise-grips by Petersen Mfg really do work
significantly better than any Chinese knockoffs I've found, so I'm
willing to pay more for them. I'm apparently in a lonely minority with
that opinion, but I probably have enough of them to outlast me.


Outside of a pair made by Sears likely 20 years ago that I have, nothing other than Vise
Grip brand pliers has passed my first inspection. The Chinese knockoffs just look cheap
to me.

Now I wonder, where are Channelock pliers made currently?

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Leon Fisk wrote:

A good education is required to navigate the current job situation. Weak minds and a
strong back get you no where. Especially when poor border control undermines those with a
good work ethic, strong back, and willingness to do the dirty jobs. Not every child is a
College candidate.

What I've seen is that a good education/resume gets you an
interview and possibly the job. What the business really
wants though is someone that doesn't call in sick, follows
instructions, can use a keyboard/computer and does little if
any problem solving on their own. Doesn't make any sense,
but that's the way it is...


I was with you up to the no problem solving part. The people that run the place like good
ideas, some times intermediaries don't like any change or questioning of the way things
are unless they thought it up themselves.

Of course I fix things, I guess most everyone would like me to solve problems


Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Have you ever see one of the injection molds they were selling to US
customers four or five years ago, for 1/3 of our price? They looked like
they were made by vo-tech school students who didn't have a teacher.

I keep in mind that they have a space program and have nuclear weapons. That took a
fairly high degree of technical ability.

They will get better.

Wes

Capability is the obscure unknown when considering Chinese goods. I wouldn't
be surprised that they are capable of producing better quality goods, but
there is no real reason why they should, at least for the American
consumers.

I'm not saying the Chinese are stupid or have no skills, instead, I'm saying
they realize that they don't need to make cheap products of any better
quality because the American consumers will repeatedly buy crap goods..
entire ship loads of crap that goes to landfills.
The Chinese won't waste time with quality control, but instead, print
Lifetime Warranty on crap goods that they probably wouldn't buy for their
own use.

It would be interesting to find out if a career auto mechanic, machinist or
industrial maintenance worker in China would use tools that are the same as
the cheap crap sold here.

I always open and inspect any low priced electrical/electronic item I get
(new or used), and I've found numerous examples of very poor hand soldering
of power leads and other connections (in new equipment).. I mean if you just
flex the wire, the soldered connection separates.
Other poor practices include folding the strands back over the vinyl
insulation before inserting the wire into the connectors before "tightening"
the screw. These examples are line voltage connections.
I found a power tool cord that had a 3-blade plug molded onto a cord with
only 2 conductors.

You may have read the post about the ball bearing that was substituted with
a solid steel bushing, for the output shaft of a 4" angle grinder.

We'll see.. I agree with Ed and you, that manufacturing a Vise-Grip plier is
a simple process. I'm expecting that the China version will be lower
quality, and that quality will continue to decrease until no one has any
real expectation of quality in the Vise-Grip product line (same quality as
generic stuff marked China, within about 5 years).

One characteristic that's common to almost all metal Chinese products is,
sharp edges and corners. Deburring isn't a worthwhile step, because it
doesn't really affect the appearance of the goods.
There are often nicely finished, surface ground surfaces on the areas that
are visible, but the hidden surfaces are horribly rough. See if you can find
any surface grinding on surfaces that don't show.

The China manufacturing expertise is making goods that looky-like real
goods. That looks like a normal-sized motor on that machine, but the rotor
is about the same size as a rotor from an old phonograph motor.
They could've saved material and manufacturing costs by making the motor
housing smaller, but then it would've been more obvious that the motor was a
piece of crap, with about enough power for a pencil sharpener.
There aren't many thermal protection devices in the motors of a
workshop-type machines from China.

Intentional deception is the exceptional Chinese engineering expertise.

It doesn't matter if the item is a kitchen appliance or a metalworking
machine, the same rules apply. Any production shortcut that can be imagined
becomes the new, lower standard of quality.

They're Communists. Maybe that partly explains the intentional
deceptiveness.

They don't buy our bibles, crosses, voting machines, beer, books about
independence, equality, freedom and democratic government, how to construct
a constitution (Constitutions for Dummies), Hustler magazine, Microsoft
products (they're not idiots), birth control drugs, war machines, etc.

Blaming the Chinese is not fair?
Are you ****ing kidding me?

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Ignoramus13479" wrote in message
...
I am of the opinion that when it comes to essentially simple stuff
such as Vise-Grips, that the Chinese are fully capable of meeting the
original quality specifications. Making vise grips is not rocket
science, all it involves is proper materials and proper tooling
running on automated machines. To say that the Chinese cannot make
same simple stampings as are done the US, is silly.

The reason why so many Chinese products are junk, is because the
American customers or retailers ask them to produce goods at the
bottom of the barrel price, with very lax quality specifications, just
so that the goods sell and last until the customer loses the store
receipt. Ultimately, if they are asked to produce junk all the time,
they might forget a little what it takes to make quality stuff, but it
should not be hard to recall.

In other words, blaming the Chinese for low quality of goods at Kmart
and Walmart, is not really fair, the determination of the quality to
be produced comes from those retailers.

I would expect the Chinese to have more difficulties reproducing the
quality of space shuttles, but not the quality of Vise Grips.

Despite that, I would not be willing to pay the "Irwin Premium".

i

In article ,
Wes wrote:



Now I wonder, where are Channelock pliers made currently?

Wes

Still in Meadville, PA, for now at least.

Wild_Bill wrote:
I would expect the Chinese Vise-Grip version to look nearly identical
to the USA version.

They can definitely duplicate the overall appearance of nearly any
goods, as they've proven with their many counterfeit goods, but looks
don't mean squat when it comes to durable, reliable tools that last.

I can't think of a single item that I've seen, as far as tools or
hardware made in China, that are equal in quality to the USA's better
quality domestic products.

You haven't seen their improved cell phone clones the n Bill.
I have a couple.
Damned things are absolutely terrific.
Half the price and more than twice the functionality. Twin Sims.
I'm runnning the latest hardware and didn't have to sign up for a two year
contract or a data plan I didn't want.

Beat that.


--
John R. Carroll

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Ignoramus13479" wrote in
message ...
I am of the opinion that when it comes to essentially simple stuff
such as Vise-Grips, that the Chinese are fully capable of meeting the
original quality specifications. Making vise grips is not rocket
science, all it involves is proper materials and proper tooling
running on automated machines. To say that the Chinese cannot make
same simple stampings as are done the US, is silly.

The reason why so many Chinese products are junk, is because the
American customers or retailers ask them to produce goods at the
bottom of the barrel price, with very lax quality specifications,
just so that the goods sell and last until the customer loses the
store receipt. Ultimately, if they are asked to produce junk all the
time, they might forget a little what it takes to make quality
stuff, but it should not be hard to recall.

In other words, blaming the Chinese for low quality of goods at Kmart
and Walmart, is not really fair, the determination of the quality to
be produced comes from those retailers.

I would expect the Chinese to have more difficulties reproducing the
quality of space shuttles, but not the quality of Vise Grips.

Despite that, I would not be willing to pay the "Irwin Premium".

i

Have you ever see one of the injection molds they were selling to US
customers four or five years ago, for 1/3 of our price? They looked
like they were made by vo-tech school students who didn't have a
teacher.

Ed,
Mattel was one of my customers during my injection molding/tooling career.
They'd have China build a mold and deliver it to my shop.
We'd fix it up T&M and send it to Mexico to be run.

I also had them send in Asian tools from Hong Kong.
We didn't even have to change the water fittings out when we press sampled
them.
Easiest five grand for a half day I ever made.
We charged $300.00 per hour to dry material and got a letter in a frame on
the wall saying thanks.

Imports aren't what is troubling the foundation of the US economy.
Balance of trade issues aren't either.
It's the overall math that doesn't work and you can slice it anyway you want
but if America is going to try and compete with the Chinese we are going to
be arguing about who has the newest bycicle.

I was raised by a generation that believed that the future of the next would
be better than the previous.
What we all did, including me, was hoard for ourselves the resources and
national effort to make that a reality.


--
John R. Carroll

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Have you ever see one of the injection molds they were selling to US
customers four or five years ago, for 1/3 of our price? They looked like
they were made by vo-tech school students who didn't have a teacher.

I keep in mind that they have a space program and have nuclear weapons.
That took a
fairly high degree of technical ability.

They will get better.

Wes

I doubt if they could have had a space program without a lot of help from
foreign machine tools; probably foreign-made parts; and a lot of foreign
engineering, bought or stolen.

As for their technical ability, it isn't in manufacturing, Wes. Almost
everything they've accomplished has been with foreign management and foreign
technology. They make engines for the Chevy Equinox...because GM essentially
packed a factory into shipping containers and sent it to Shanghai. And then
they sent their own management team over to manage it.

Everyone I talked to when I was writing my articles on foreign trade,
including Hamei, and executives from Caterpillar, VW, Charmilles, etc. said
that they can't do much without a lot of foreign input.

Of course, that will change over time. But the mountain they're climbing is
steeper than a lot of people realize.

--
Ed Huntress

John Husvar wrote:

Now I wonder, where are Channelock pliers made currently?

Wes

Still in Meadville, PA, for now at least.


I guess I'll add a few more to my collection. The parrot nose models are great for
running pipe btw.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Wild_Bill wrote:
Capability is the obscure unknown when considering Chinese goods. I
wouldn't be surprised that they are capable of producing better
quality goods, but there is no real reason why they should, at least
for the American consumers.

I'm not saying the Chinese are stupid or have no skills, instead, I'm
saying they realize that they don't need to make cheap products of
any better quality because the American consumers will repeatedly buy
crap goods.. entire ship loads of crap that goes to landfills.
The Chinese won't waste time with quality control, but instead, print
Lifetime Warranty on crap goods that they probably wouldn't buy for
their own use.



Bill,
You would have to grasp the Chinese cultural model of a manager to form an
opinion.
I've seen how this works at first hand.
You wouldn't sit still for it for even 30 seconds, let alone a minute.


--
John R. Carroll

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:12:20 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Since this thread started I pulled out a couple of my old ones, and it looks
to me like the Chinese, if they're trying to cut costs on these things, are
making a foolish mistake. Vise-Grips are so simple to manufacture that
shaving a few pennies on materials or tooling probably is more a result of
their "make it cheaper" mindset than good economics. But I have to admit
that I haven't looked closely at the Chinese-made models.

I bought some "jesse james" ugh signed vise grips from Costco.
About 2/3rds the cost of Irwin. Made by Stanley in China I believe.
Anyone familiar with the usual useless Chinese versions would be able
to tell right away that jesse's were far superior, and probably every
bit as good as a quality original. They've held up quite well to years
of abuse. The main reason that the usual Chinese ones are no good is
that the manufacturers believe that the market is for dollar-a-piece
models. They're probably right. How many young people have you met
lately who can even change a tire? I hate to think of the percentage.
There's little incentive for functionality when the vast majority of
this stuff probably ends up in the bottoms of never-used toolboxes
received as gifts.

It was things like this that the Japanese seized on when they started to
move up-market by making quality products. They could make things like that
just as good as Western-made ones, but they still had lower labor costs and
other cost advantages from export assistance and (mostly) bank ownership
that cut their capital costs. Maybe the Chinese are just getting to that
point now.

They've been making a wide variety of quality for quite a while. I
think that we see a preponderance of the worst stuff because it
appeals to a lot of vendors who like the high profit margins of buying
for a buck and selling for five. One of the local ones just gave up.
Too much of his stock was comprised of terrible picks, and yet he
tried to sell it for more than HF. I told him early on to make better
inventory choices, but he thought that his experience of carrying
glacially slow-selling over-priced Jet stuff was proof that customers
only want the absolute cheapest crap. I was sure he could do better,
but then I wasn't there every day to gauge his clientele.
Met-enemy-us, yada yada.

Wayne

Well, I did specify tools and hardware type items (simple mechanisms or
assemblies), not meaning to include circuit boards/computer hardware-type
hardware.
If there is no more effort put into quality and reliability of those phones,
than there is for their tools and other hardware items shipped to the USA,
then you were one of the buyers that was fortunate enough to get working
products.

I don't think I'd appreciate the additional phone features, since I only
need a phone to make calls or receive calls.
However, made in China doesn't definitely indicate designed in China.

I realize that the Chinese manufacture some high tech products for some
consciencious companies that still care about their own reputation, but the
majority of Chinese goods produced for consumers, as far as household items,
hardware such as hand and power tools, door hinges, plumbing fixtures, etc
are very low grade compared to previously domestically-produced goods.

When a recognized brand name is put on products made in China, particularly
for higher priced products and/or commercial products, they have very likely
been at least closely inspected and possibly tested before going to
distributors.
I believe some products undergo more scrutiny than most consumer goods,
which I suspect probably results in a considerable amount of product ending
up in the fail/reject/rework bin, instead of making it out the door.

I'm not confused about what the Chinese "can" do.. I wasn't saying their
capabilities are severely limited or crude, only that I haven't seen any
hardware examples that are anything other than very low quality.
Some examples would be loose fitting fasteners and fittings that are very
likely made on CNC equipment, yet fit too loosely to hold when tightened.
I don't think I've seen any threaded parts from China with any thread sizes
that are even reasonably close to normally acceptable tolerances.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Wild_Bill wrote:
I would expect the Chinese Vise-Grip version to look nearly identical
to the USA version.

They can definitely duplicate the overall appearance of nearly any
goods, as they've proven with their many counterfeit goods, but looks
don't mean squat when it comes to durable, reliable tools that last.

I can't think of a single item that I've seen, as far as tools or
hardware made in China, that are equal in quality to the USA's better
quality domestic products.

You haven't seen their improved cell phone clones the n Bill.
I have a couple.
Damned things are absolutely terrific.
Half the price and more than twice the functionality. Twin Sims.
I'm runnning the latest hardware and didn't have to sign up for a two year
contract or a data plan I didn't want.

Beat that.


--
John R. Carroll

Ed Huntress wrote:
Since this thread started I pulled out a couple of my old ones, and it looks
to me like the Chinese, if they're trying to cut costs on these things, are
making a foolish mistake. Vise-Grips are so simple to manufacture that
shaving a few pennies on materials or tooling probably is more a result of
their "make it cheaper" mindset than good economics. But I have to admit
that I haven't looked closely at the Chinese-made models.

The whole thing is mostly blanked steel pieces bent over in a simple forming
die; one piece is a simple forging -- more likely a coining -- and the jaws
are brazed on. Maybe the jaws themselves are a vanadium alloy but the rest
is certainly plain high-carbon steel. The stamping that holds the top jaw is
probably ironed when it's bent.

It was things like this that the Japanese seized on when they started to
move up-market by making quality products. They could make things like that
just as good as Western-made ones, but they still had lower labor costs and
other cost advantages from export assistance and (mostly) bank ownership
that cut their capital costs. Maybe the Chinese are just getting to that
point now.

In any case, given their long life and the importance of their being
well-made, it's still worth it, IMO, to pay for the real thing.


I wandered into a tool store today and looked at the current stock. They
had both US and China made Vise Grip models on hand.
Looked them over the the Chinese ones seemed to have a rougher finish,
the knurling on the adjuster was not as sharp and the stamping seemed
shallow.

--
Steve W.

I'd like to see a show of hands, indicating how many guys ever saw one of
the Jeeps that were made in China.. when was that, in the 80s?

An entire manufacturing facility was built in China, and failed to turn out
even one finished vehicle, IIRC. The entire project was a complete loss.

I wonder if the Chinese considered turning the plant into a weapons factory.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...


I doubt if they could have had a space program without a lot of help from
foreign machine tools; probably foreign-made parts; and a lot of foreign
engineering, bought or stolen.

As for their technical ability, it isn't in manufacturing, Wes. Almost
everything they've accomplished has been with foreign management and
foreign technology. They make engines for the Chevy Equinox...because GM
essentially packed a factory into shipping containers and sent it to
Shanghai. And then they sent their own management team over to manage it.

Everyone I talked to when I was writing my articles on foreign trade,
including Hamei, and executives from Caterpillar, VW, Charmilles, etc.
said that they can't do much without a lot of foreign input.

Of course, that will change over time. But the mountain they're climbing
is steeper than a lot of people realize.

--
Ed Huntress

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
I'd like to see a show of hands, indicating how many guys ever saw one of
the Jeeps that were made in China.. when was that, in the 80s?

An entire manufacturing facility was built in China, and failed to turn
out even one finished vehicle, IIRC. The entire project was a complete
loss.

I wonder if the Chinese considered turning the plant into a weapons
factory.

--
WB


huh. i was traveling in china in '86. seemed at the time they'd just put
in that jeep factory. i thought the jeeps i was seeing around shanghai were
manufactured at that factory... but actually now i can't remember, maybe it
was they were saying they WERE going to put in a jeep factory. at the time
there were volkswagen jettas (i think it was jettas? golfs?) driving
around. snazzy cars for china at the time, compared to those ubiquitous
single cylinder water cooled lister(?) farm vehicles (they look like rear
tine rototillers). i can't remember now if they were saying they were going
to be building jettas there or that they had already started building them
there. i'm forgetting the chronology. but, at the time, there were jeeps
and jettas driving around (but not a lot of 'em, there were only just "a
few" (was probably thousands of 'em but the shanghai area is pretty big) and
it was kinda a big deal for the chinese.

b.w.

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Ignoramus13479" wrote in
message ...
I am of the opinion that when it comes to essentially simple stuff
such as Vise-Grips, that the Chinese are fully capable of meeting the
original quality specifications. Making vise grips is not rocket
science, all it involves is proper materials and proper tooling
running on automated machines. To say that the Chinese cannot make
same simple stampings as are done the US, is silly.

The reason why so many Chinese products are junk, is because the
American customers or retailers ask them to produce goods at the
bottom of the barrel price, with very lax quality specifications,
just so that the goods sell and last until the customer loses the
store receipt. Ultimately, if they are asked to produce junk all the
time, they might forget a little what it takes to make quality
stuff, but it should not be hard to recall.

In other words, blaming the Chinese for low quality of goods at Kmart
and Walmart, is not really fair, the determination of the quality to
be produced comes from those retailers.

I would expect the Chinese to have more difficulties reproducing the
quality of space shuttles, but not the quality of Vise Grips.

Despite that, I would not be willing to pay the "Irwin Premium".

i

Have you ever see one of the injection molds they were selling to US
customers four or five years ago, for 1/3 of our price? They looked
like they were made by vo-tech school students who didn't have a
teacher.

Ed,
Mattel was one of my customers during my injection molding/tooling
career.
They'd have China build a mold and deliver it to my shop.
We'd fix it up T&M and send it to Mexico to be run.

I understand there was a pretty fair business in that work for a few years.
There hasn't been a lot of noise about molds from China lately. Did they get
better, or did the molders who were buying them give up on it?


I also had them send in Asian tools from Hong Kong.
We didn't even have to change the water fittings out when we press sampled
them.
Easiest five grand for a half day I ever made.
We charged $300.00 per hour to dry material and got a letter in a frame on
the wall saying thanks.

Hong Kong managers supposedly run some of the best shops in mainland China.


Imports aren't what is troubling the foundation of the US economy.
Balance of trade issues aren't either.
It's the overall math that doesn't work and you can slice it anyway you
want
but if America is going to try and compete with the Chinese we are going
to
be arguing about who has the newest bycicle.

We aren't going to "compete" with China for many years. You can't "compete"
with 80-cents/hour wages. And I don't mean that in terms of direct labor at
the final product manufacturer. It's their entire supply chain.

Our relationship could be a good one, but if it is, it will be driven by a
division of economic activity (comparative advantage) rather than
head-to-head competition (absolute advantage).


I was raised by a generation that believed that the future of the next
would
be better than the previous.
What we all did, including me, was hoard for ourselves the resources and
national effort to make that a reality.


--
John R. Carroll

"William Wixon" wrote in message
...

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
I'd like to see a show of hands, indicating how many guys ever saw one of
the Jeeps that were made in China.. when was that, in the 80s?

An entire manufacturing facility was built in China, and failed to turn
out even one finished vehicle, IIRC. The entire project was a complete
loss.

I wonder if the Chinese considered turning the plant into a weapons
factory.

--
WB


huh. i was traveling in china in '86. seemed at the time they'd just put
in that jeep factory. i thought the jeeps i was seeing around shanghai
were manufactured at that factory... but actually now i can't remember,
maybe it was they were saying they WERE going to put in a jeep factory.
at the time there were volkswagen jettas (i think it was jettas? golfs?)
driving around. snazzy cars for china at the time, compared to those
ubiquitous single cylinder water cooled lister(?) farm vehicles (they look
like rear tine rototillers). i can't remember now if they were saying
they were going to be building jettas there or that they had already
started building them there. i'm forgetting the chronology. but, at the
time, there were jeeps and jettas driving around (but not a lot of 'em,
there were only just "a few" (was probably thousands of 'em but the
shanghai area is pretty big) and it was kinda a big deal for the chinese.

b.w.

There were Jettas. VW was the first Western car manufacturer to build
substantial plants in China.

I talked to an exec with VW around six years ago and he said that their
quality was improving then, but still not up to Western standards. The same
word came from the Charmilles (EDMs) exec I interviewed for an article. As
far as I know, VW still isn't exporting cars from China -- at least, not to
the West.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:


Have you ever see one of the injection molds they were selling to US
customers four or five years ago, for 1/3 of our price? They looked
like they were made by vo-tech school students who didn't have a
teacher.

Ed,
Mattel was one of my customers during my injection molding/tooling
career.
They'd have China build a mold and deliver it to my shop.
We'd fix it up T&M and send it to Mexico to be run.

I understand there was a pretty fair business in that work for a few
years. There hasn't been a lot of noise about molds from China
lately. Did they get better, or did the molders who were buying them
give up on it?

Molders didn't buy tooling in this case Ed. Mattel, like GM and so many
others before them, learned that it was important to own their tools. What
happened in the end was they put up a big mold shop in Mexico and did all of
the rebuilds there.
They also began buying significant amounts of product directly from Chinese
sources.

Imports aren't what is troubling the foundation of the US economy.
Balance of trade issues aren't either.
It's the overall math that doesn't work and you can slice it anyway
you want
but if America is going to try and compete with the Chinese we are
going to
be arguing about who has the newest bycicle.

We aren't going to "compete" with China for many years. You can't
"compete" with 80-cents/hour wages. And I don't mean that in terms of
direct labor at the final product manufacturer. It's their entire
supply chain.

That was what I meant.


Our relationship could be a good one, but if it is, it will be driven
by a division of economic activity (comparative advantage) rather than
head-to-head competition (absolute advantage).

In the long run, America's best interests are served by a prosperous China.
The difficulty is that we have spent the last 30 years ceding the industrial
and technological field to everyone else around the globe.
There are, of course, exceptions.

GE, is one but if you look a little at America's GE's you see that they
aren't American companies at all anymore.
The technologies and products these companies are prospering with are world
market stuff.


--
John R. Carroll

According to the managers of various mold shops that I visited during
auctions, the mold business is moving to China.

i

"Ignoramus15187" wrote in message
...
According to the managers of various mold shops that I visited during
auctions, the mold business is moving to China.

i

Be wary of such claims, Iggy. I'm not up for checking imports on them right
now, but in the past I've found that the reality was something like this:

Moldmaking shops spring up like mushrooms during good economic times. We
soon have excess capacity. Then the downturn comes, and they drop like
flies -- not only the new ones, but also some of the older ones that didn't
keep up to date.

Then someone does a survey (AMBA, for example) that indicates that 30% of
the business is going to China. Only they don't know how to do a survey, so
it's screwed up beyond recognition because they're counting the same lost
contract three, four, or even five times. So then you check with Commerce
for their import data and you find that it's impossibly skewed, because they
counted a lot of molds as "materials."

So then you spend a month figuring out the reality on your own, and you
realize that there isn't nearly as much of that business coming from China
as imported molds. What's actually happening is that the business is coming
from China as imported *finished products.* They're getting their molds made
at home.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Ignoramus15187" wrote in
message ...
According to the managers of various mold shops that I visited during
auctions, the mold business is moving to China.

i

Be wary of such claims, Iggy. I'm not up for checking imports on them
right now, but in the past I've found that the reality was something
like this:

Moldmaking shops spring up like mushrooms during good economic times.
We soon have excess capacity. Then the downturn comes, and they drop
like flies -- not only the new ones, but also some of the older ones
that didn't keep up to date.

Then someone does a survey (AMBA, for example) that indicates that
30% of the business is going to China. Only they don't know how to do
a survey, so it's screwed up beyond recognition because they're
counting the same lost contract three, four, or even five times. So
then you check with Commerce for their import data and you find that
it's impossibly skewed, because they counted a lot of molds as
"materials."

So then you spend a month figuring out the reality on your own, and
you realize that there isn't nearly as much of that business coming
from China as imported molds. What's actually happening is that the
business is coming from China as imported *finished products.*
They're getting their molds made at home.

That's exactly right Ed.
The shlock shops can't survive modern technology here in the US and end up
out of bussiness because they aren't qualified in their chosen field. What
Iggy is hearing is sour grapes.

With the crash of the housing market you'll see fewer shops spring up.
Moldmaking is terrible when you look at the capital investment required to
compete in the US market.
You need a million dollars to fully open a real mold shop and operate to it
profitability these days. Maybe more.
Given the current climate in the financial services industry, a new guy has
to bring every dollar to the table on his own.

--
John R. Carroll

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:13:23 -0400, Wes
wrote:

I was with you up to the no problem solving part. The people that run the place like good
ideas, some times intermediaries don't like any change or questioning of the way things
are unless they thought it up themselves.

Of course I fix things, I guess most everyone would like me to solve problems

I can only speak for places I have worked and/or been privy
to peer inside for a bit. The problem solvers are treated
like loose cannons, management can't control them (which is
related to why they are problem solvers) and thus only puts
up with them to a point. If they were held in high regard
management wouldn't hire stupid contemporaries and keep them
around after numerous screw ups while punishing the actual
problem solver.

I quit passing on "good ideas" to upper management long
before leaving. It really ripped me up to see them ignored
and/or *******ized. I either figured out how to implement it
myself or lived without...

As Steve A. mentioned in a follow up post, read some of
Matthew B. Crawford's recent work. You don't have to get his
book, just listen/read some of the interviews he has done
promoting his book "Shop Class as Soulcraft". His tale is
much the same as I have personally seen (shrug).

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:00:14 -0400, Wes
wrote:

snip
Vise grips are an improvisational tool.

Yes, very well put. I only use them when there is no proper
tool for the job or it isn't readily available.

A neighbor stopped in not too long ago. Wonder if I could
help him hold/unscrew a large (4 inch?) plastic pipe fitting
in the bottom of a 55 gallon drum. He said it was only
finger tight but that he couldn't reach both sides at the
same time. I was busy at the time (lunch I think so I
loaned him a very large jawed and a chain Vise-Grip. Told
him one or both would probably be able to grip his pipe. If
not I would stop by after lunch. He was back a short time
later with a big grin, the large jaw version did the job
just fine. He had never seen either version before, but had
a sudden urge to buy one of the large jaw models

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:00:14 -0400, Wes wrote:

Vise grips are an improvisational tool.

Wes

They are indeed, and wonderfully so. Field expedient, about never
exactly the right tool but sometimes they're the only tool available
that works and often the most convenient -- as in clamping and
jigging stuff for welding.

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 21:15:35 -0400, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Well, I did specify tools and hardware type items (simple mechanisms or
assemblies), not meaning to include circuit boards/computer hardware-type
hardware.
If there is no more effort put into quality and reliability of those phones,
than there is for their tools and other hardware items shipped to the USA,
then you were one of the buyers that was fortunate enough to get working
products.

I don't think I'd appreciate the additional phone features, since I only
need a phone to make calls or receive calls.
However, made in China doesn't definitely indicate designed in China.

I realize that the Chinese manufacture some high tech products for some
consciencious companies that still care about their own reputation, but the
majority of Chinese goods produced for consumers, as far as household items,
hardware such as hand and power tools, door hinges, plumbing fixtures, etc
are very low grade compared to previously domestically-produced goods.

When a recognized brand name is put on products made in China, particularly
for higher priced products and/or commercial products, they have very likely
been at least closely inspected and possibly tested before going to
distributors.
I believe some products undergo more scrutiny than most consumer goods,
which I suspect probably results in a considerable amount of product ending
up in the fail/reject/rework bin, instead of making it out the door.

I'm not confused about what the Chinese "can" do.. I wasn't saying their
capabilities are severely limited or crude, only that I haven't seen any
hardware examples that are anything other than very low quality.
Some examples would be loose fitting fasteners and fittings that are very
likely made on CNC equipment, yet fit too loosely to hold when tightened.
I don't think I've seen any threaded parts from China with any thread sizes
that are even reasonably close to normally acceptable tolerances.


But the bottom line here is that *American* importer/distributors are
willing to bring in and sell crap, and that *we* Americans are willing
to buy crap. If *we* were better educated as to what constitutes
quality, no one would buy the junk, the importers would require better
quality from the Chinese, and (I believe) they would easily be up to
the task of manufacturing quality goods. Prices would go up, but still
lower than with stuff made with American wages. I doubt that most of
the cost-cutting shaves more than a small amount off the price.

If the 'Merkins are willing to buy junk, what is the incentive for the
Chinese to produce good stuff? The blame should probably start with
the Wal Mart Empire.

Joe

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 07:10:59 -0400, the infamous Joe
scrawled the following:

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 21:15:35 -0400, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Well, I did specify tools and hardware type items (simple mechanisms or
assemblies), not meaning to include circuit boards/computer hardware-type
hardware.
If there is no more effort put into quality and reliability of those phones,
than there is for their tools and other hardware items shipped to the USA,
then you were one of the buyers that was fortunate enough to get working
products.

I don't think I'd appreciate the additional phone features, since I only
need a phone to make calls or receive calls.
However, made in China doesn't definitely indicate designed in China.

I realize that the Chinese manufacture some high tech products for some
consciencious companies that still care about their own reputation, but the
majority of Chinese goods produced for consumers, as far as household items,
hardware such as hand and power tools, door hinges, plumbing fixtures, etc
are very low grade compared to previously domestically-produced goods.

When a recognized brand name is put on products made in China, particularly
for higher priced products and/or commercial products, they have very likely
been at least closely inspected and possibly tested before going to
distributors.
I believe some products undergo more scrutiny than most consumer goods,
which I suspect probably results in a considerable amount of product ending
up in the fail/reject/rework bin, instead of making it out the door.

I'm not confused about what the Chinese "can" do.. I wasn't saying their
capabilities are severely limited or crude, only that I haven't seen any
hardware examples that are anything other than very low quality.
Some examples would be loose fitting fasteners and fittings that are very
likely made on CNC equipment, yet fit too loosely to hold when tightened.
I don't think I've seen any threaded parts from China with any thread sizes
that are even reasonably close to normally acceptable tolerances.


But the bottom line here is that *American* importer/distributors are
willing to bring in and sell crap, and that *we* Americans are willing
to buy crap. If *we* were better educated as to what constitutes
quality, no one would buy the junk, the importers would require better
quality from the Chinese, and (I believe) they would easily be up to
the task of manufacturing quality goods. Prices would go up, but still
lower than with stuff made with American wages. I doubt that most of
the cost-cutting shaves more than a small amount off the price.

If the 'Merkins are willing to buy junk, what is the incentive for the
Chinese to produce good stuff?

You were fine up to here. And you're right up to a point. In the
quest of cheap, Americans, distributors, importers, and Chinese (other
than the original manufacturers the importers worked with) build and
accepted the cheaper crap each year. Overall, though, the cheap crap
from Chiwan is better now than it was 35 years ago when I I first
encountered it from Harbor Freight and Ben Franklin Dime stores.


The blame should probably start with the Wal Mart Empire.

Cheap crap from Japan and China were coming in LONG before Wally World
existed as a major entity, Joe. Don't blame Wally for that, though
they're now part of it.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 07:28:18 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 07:10:59 -0400, the infamous Joe
scrawled the following:


But the bottom line here is that *American* importer/distributors are
willing to bring in and sell crap, and that *we* Americans are willing
to buy crap. If *we* were better educated as to what constitutes
quality, no one would buy the junk, the importers would require better
quality from the Chinese, and (I believe) they would easily be up to
the task of manufacturing quality goods. Prices would go up, but still
lower than with stuff made with American wages. I doubt that most of
the cost-cutting shaves more than a small amount off the price.

If the 'Merkins are willing to buy junk, what is the incentive for the
Chinese to produce good stuff?

You were fine up to here. And you're right up to a point. In the
quest of cheap, Americans, distributors, importers, and Chinese (other
than the original manufacturers the importers worked with) build and
accepted the cheaper crap each year. Overall, though, the cheap crap
from Chiwan is better now than it was 35 years ago when I I first
encountered it from Harbor Freight and Ben Franklin Dime stores.

Well, that last part is definitely true, but it could be argued that
the increase in quality is due to "market forces" demanding (OK,
preferring) something better. Incremental improvement to find out
where the consumers' tolerance level lies. Other issues could come
into play as well; I'm really not much of a student of the
marketplace, except where my own wallet is involved.

And hey, I had forgotten all about good ole Ben Franklin stores.
Hadn't seen one since the mid-70s.

The blame should probably start with the Wal Mart Empire.

Cheap crap from Japan and China were coming in LONG before Wally World
existed as a major entity, Joe. Don't blame Wally for that, though
they're now part of it.

True, but I remember when Sam Walton was still alive, and Wally crowed
about their "buy American" philosophy. Soon after his demise,
American-made stuff disappeared from their shelves, and their
suppliers were told to "meet this price" or go to hell. Couldn't
happen if domestic manufacturers had to pay decent wages. As perhaps
the biggest player in the consumer game, they set the new standard. Of
course, the majority of this country were active participants, as we
happily bought the cheaper stuff to save a few bucks, and in the long
run drove much manufacturing away from our shores. I really saw that
happening with the mass closings of the cotton mills that were the
primary economy when I moved here in 1980 - now almost extinct.

This isn't all just a blame game, though. The cycle of who is on top
and who relinquishes that spot goes on inexorably. Right now Asia is
in the ascendancy. The US can't stop that, but by being innovative, we
can at least hold our own - the rising economies in Asia will happily
spend some of their new wealth on novel inventions that haven't yet
become common commodities. In the long run, we just need to adapt.

Joe

The root of the cheapening-of-consumer-goods problem, IMO, is that the
American consumer has had their expectation of quality lowered, and it isn't
new.

For several decades, the quality of goods has been aimed toward the
throw-away, disposable goods we see everywhere today.
The ratio of the number of repairable goods has probably never been as low
at any time since the industrial revolution.

A new realization needed to be accepted.. it will cost more to repair it
than to replace it.

Americans aren't just willing to buy the crap, they're actually happy to buy
it, content and satisfied/convinced that they are saving money.
Happy being stupid.

After WWII, when cheaply-made Japanese goods were being imported, the
American consumers understood that the toys and trinkets were cheaply-made
goods, and if they wanted better quality goods, there were countless stores
with better grades of merchandise. Junk stores were the minority.

Japan went on to become a world class producer of electronics, optics,
precision laboratory equipment, vehicles, and more.
Excelling is part of their culture, and it was reflected in their
manufacturing industry.

I sincerely doubt that China will ever be inclined to produce high quality
goods for export. I'm not aware of any goods they produce that are even as
good as the average quality of previously domestically-produced goods in
the USA.
They make a whole new level of cheap crap.. that's where they excel. Many
domestic American manufacturers would never have stooped to that level.. it
would have been embarrassing to make junk like that.

China has shown all manufacturers worldwide, that no one can produce goods
as cheap as they can (not just as cheaply). In many cases, most
manufacturers couldn't have imagined all the shortcuts that are common in
most Chinese products.

As the expectations of buyers continues to be lowered, the quality of goods
will continue to spiral downward, IMO.

It' too bad that landfills in China won't be filling up with the crap they
manufacture.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Joe" wrote in message
...

But the bottom line here is that *American* importer/distributors are
willing to bring in and sell crap, and that *we* Americans are willing
to buy crap. If *we* were better educated as to what constitutes
quality, no one would buy the junk, the importers would require better
quality from the Chinese, and (I believe) they would easily be up to
the task of manufacturing quality goods. Prices would go up, but still
lower than with stuff made with American wages. I doubt that most of
the cost-cutting shaves more than a small amount off the price.

If the 'Merkins are willing to buy junk, what is the incentive for the
Chinese to produce good stuff? The blame should probably start with
the Wal Mart Empire.

Joe

Checked out a set of Vice-Grips at the store and the card on which the
vice=grips are mounted and on the back in very small printing "made in
China" I also noted that the price was the same as before.

"Randy" wrote in message
news
Looks like vise grips will be made in China now, the complete factory
is up for auction. I emailed Irwin to see what they say. Let's
see if they reply.

http://www.bidspotter.com/forms/event.php?event=8079

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

On Oct 4, 3:42*pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
...
I sincerely doubt that China will ever be inclined to produce high quality
goods for export. I'm not aware of any goods they produce that are even as
good as the average quality of *previously domestically-produced goods in
the USA.
They make a whole new level of cheap crap.. that's where they excel. Many
domestic American manufacturers would never have stooped to that level.. it
would have been embarrassing to make junk like that.

China has shown all manufacturers worldwide, that no one can produce goods
as cheap as they can (not just as cheaply). In many cases, most
manufacturers couldn't have imagined all the shortcuts that are common in
most Chinese products.

WB

Don't bet your career on that notion.

Examine high-end Chinese antiques. When the European market demanded
quality China produced porcelain that Dresden could barely match.

I've worked with engineers and technicians from all over the world and
have seen much more variation between individuals than nationalities,
if they are really proficient there is no hint in their work of where
they came from. The less experienced ones do show cultural biases,
such as unwillingness to risk making a mistake in front of
foreigners.

European auto makers tried to break into the US market with low cost
products and little investment in overhead. The strategy worked for a
while, but how many Renaults and Fiats have you seen recently? VW,
Honda et.al. created solid repair organizations and a good reputation
before succeeding here.

So far China sells mostly lower-valued throw-away products to
consumers, and supplies considerably better custom subassemblies to
domestic OEMs who can negotiate directly for the level of cost &
quality they need. If you demand and pay them for quality they can
certainly provide it. They learn fast.

jsw

I had mentioned earlier that China appears to be capable of producing
better-quality goods, and that I suspect that Chinese tradesmen and
professionals don't use the low quality tools that are imported into the USA
for the consumer market.

I don't know squat about antiques, but my guess would be that you were
referring to artsy-type products for the elite european classes.
No doubt there are highly skilled professionals, craftsmen and artisans in
China, and I've never had the opinion that the Chinese are incapable or
lacking intelligence.

The career advice may be applicable to younger folks, Jim. I agree that
China (and India) workers will gain a substantial portion of the typical
production workforce type of employment in the near future, without having
to move to the USA or North America.

I also agree that the lowering of quality in goods comes from the people who
specify the level of quality and price (or just price).
I don't need any Vise-Grips, but when I do, I'll be surprised if the quality
will be as good as my older, and not-so-old models (I still have some that I
haven't used).

Many folks believe that the reason Chinese goods cost less, is that it costs
less to produce those goods "over there".
If that were the only factor, China could have been producing a superior
vise grip-type plier (or other common goods) for a considerably lower retail
price here in the USA.
Instead, the Chinese versions are substantially inferior in quality, and
despite the poor quality, they probably outsell the genuine quality product
by maybe 10 to 1, or higher (just a guess).

I've not seen any superior Chinese goods, only inferior quality looky-like
products (Vise-Grip and countless other inferior products).
I have seen better quality (low or average-priced) consumer goods products
from Korea and Taiwan.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

Don't bet your career on that notion.

Examine high-end Chinese antiques. When the European market demanded
quality China produced porcelain that Dresden could barely match.

I've worked with engineers and technicians from all over the world and
have seen much more variation between individuals than nationalities,
if they are really proficient there is no hint in their work of where
they came from. The less experienced ones do show cultural biases,
such as unwillingness to risk making a mistake in front of
foreigners.

European auto makers tried to break into the US market with low cost
products and little investment in overhead. The strategy worked for a
while, but how many Renaults and Fiats have you seen recently? VW,
Honda et.al. created solid repair organizations and a good reputation
before succeeding here.

So far China sells mostly lower-valued throw-away products to
consumers, and supplies considerably better custom subassemblies to
domestic OEMs who can negotiate directly for the level of cost &
quality they need. If you demand and pay them for quality they can
certainly provide it. They learn fast.

jsw