Someone told me that any machine oil will do as long as there is no
detergent.
Can't use motor oil.
Can't use way oil.

Something about anti foaming.

What are the requirements on that oil?

I have a new PM1236 lathe, and I will need to change the oil after 10
or 20 hours.

Someone told me that any machine oil will do as long as there is no
detergent.
Can't use motor oil.
Can't use way oil.

Order from Mcmaster Carr page 2136 has there machine oils for $15/gal. You
have a few weights to choose from. I'd order 3025K29 for my machine.

Karl

On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 07:35:40 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Someone told me that any machine oil will do as long as there is no
detergent.
Can't use motor oil.
Can't use way oil.

Something about anti foaming.

What are the requirements on that oil?

I have a new PM1236 lathe, and I will need to change the oil after 10
or 20 hours.

A turbine oil like Mobil DTE "named series" is a safe bet and a good
general purpose non-detergent oil. McMaster carries gallon jugs.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub..._DTE_Named.asp

Hydraulic oil is probably OK as well as long as you can get the
viscosity you need, and may be easier to find locally.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...bil_DTE_20.asp

Note that Mobil uses the same first name for different products, for
example, DTE for turbine oils and hydraulic oils, and Vactra for both
way oil and gear oil, so don't assume all DTE is the same stuff.

--
Ned Simmons

A pretty good rule is to use a machine oil of 150 saybolt or 10w for
spindles and 250 to 350 saybolt or 30w for ways and gear boxes. Automotive
oils are NOT suitable because of additives to keep particulate in suspension
for removal by the oil filter. Machine oils allow particulates to settle in
the sump.
Steve

wrote in message
...
Someone told me that any machine oil will do as long as there is no
detergent.
Can't use motor oil.
Can't use way oil.

Something about anti foaming.

What are the requirements on that oil?

I have a new PM1236 lathe, and I will need to change the oil after 10
or 20 hours.

Ask the manufacturer. On my Clausing lathe, the manufacturer said use
DTE 24 hydraulic oil. It visually looks and flows like canola oil.

Since that oil will last you essentially forever, cost does not
matter. You can buy it at McMaster-Carr.

If you are close to Lisle, IL, I have two buckets of unknown hydraulic
oil, and I want to get rid of at least one, so stop by and help
yuorself if you are nearby.

i

" wrote:

Someone told me that any machine oil will do as long as there is no
detergent.
Can't use motor oil.
Can't use way oil.

Something about anti foaming.

What are the requirements on that oil?

I have a new PM1236 lathe, and I will need to change the oil after 10
or 20 hours.

The Leblond at work uses 20wt non detergent motor oil.

I was told to use DTE 68 for my Clausing. Hydraulic oil is available at your local
tractor supply http://www.tractorsupply.com

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

In article ,
"Steve Lusardi" wrote:

A pretty good rule is to use a machine oil of 150 saybolt or 10w for
spindles and 250 to 350 saybolt or 30w for ways and gear boxes. Automotive
oils are NOT suitable because of additives to keep particulate in suspension
for removal by the oil filter. Machine oils allow particulates to settle in
the sump.

So do non-detergent motor oils. You do have to read the package, but
it's not hard to come by, since people still rebuild engines
occasionally.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

wrote:
Someone told me that any machine oil will do as long as there is no
detergent.

What does the manual for your new PM 1236 say under the section about
lubrication?
I have a similar lathe, but not the same make, the manual calls for the
equivalent of Shell Tellus 32, which translates to an ISO viscosity
grade 32 antiwear (32AW) machine/hydraulic oil. I buy mine at the local
autoparts store.

Russ

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 01:28:26 GMT, R wrote:

wrote:
Someone told me that any machine oil will do as long as there is no
detergent.

What does the manual for your new PM 1236 say under the section about
lubrication?
I have a similar lathe, but not the same make, the manual calls for the
equivalent of Shell Tellus 32, which translates to an ISO viscosity
grade 32 antiwear (32AW) machine/hydraulic oil. I buy mine at the local
autoparts store.

Russ


Tellus 32 is a (if not THE) standard for use in hydraulic elevators as
the power transmitter. I doubt it is available retail in smaller
quantities, but is readily available in 20 litre (about 5 US gallon)
at anyplace from a Shell Distributor to a tractor supply or a good
hardware store. For a quart or two, ask any elevator company.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

I got 68 and 30 from my local Gas and oil supply company.
The one that takes tankers to gas stations and oil to the airport and....

Lots of oil there - they had over a 100 grades for so many uses.
Martin

Wes wrote:
" wrote:

Someone told me that any machine oil will do as long as there is no
detergent.
Can't use motor oil.
Can't use way oil.

Something about anti foaming.

What are the requirements on that oil?

I have a new PM1236 lathe, and I will need to change the oil after 10
or 20 hours.

The Leblond at work uses 20wt non detergent motor oil.

I was told to use DTE 68 for my Clausing. Hydraulic oil is available at your local
tractor supply http://www.tractorsupply.com

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Brian Lawson wrote:

Tellus 32 is a (if not THE) standard for use in hydraulic elevators as
the power transmitter. I doubt it is available retail in smaller
quantities, but is readily available in 20 litre (about 5 US gallon)
at anyplace from a Shell Distributor to a tractor supply or a good
hardware store. For a quart or two, ask any elevator company.


I have followed this thread for its educational value and potential
relevance to me in the future. I have also found a few discussions on the
topic on several different fora. I was kind of surprised that the whole
issue is akin to black magic.

I had a look at a manual of one of the potential acquisitions (a gear-head
lathe) made in China. The instructions were to fill the gear box with "10#
or 20# machine oil". A Google search reveals no such beast. I took it to
mean SAE 10 or 20. From the various discussions it became clear that this
oil must:
1) Not have detergent
2) Not foam
3) Not have additives that attack copper/brass/bronze

A trip around town quickly established that such oil is apparently hard to
find in auto shops or tool shops. An enquiry about presence of detergent
leads to the shop staff's eyes glazing over. An internet search revealed
some helpful comparison charts like the one in this thread:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=27108

Further searches for *Canadian* sources of such industry standards as Mobil
Vactra suggested that this stuff is simply not available here (if you wish
further information from Mobil you can either read and accept a yard-long
disclaimer before e-mailing them or phone the 1-800 number which has a modem
on the other end!) The high end tool supplier (KBC Tools) sells EEZ way oil
but nothing specifically for gears. I did find a Shell dealer in town with
extremely helpful staff but the minimum quantities of their Tellus
(hydraulic) and Tonna (way oil) they sell were 20 litres.

I was wondering:
1) What are the usual quantities of oil needed to fill a gear box in a
lathe?
2) How often do you need to change the oil?
3) What is wrong with just grabbing a bottle of 75W-90 or higher gear oil
off the automotive shelf? Do any of those have detergents? I could find no
evidence that this is the case. Most product informations sheet contain
results of the copper strip test.
4) What is the downside of using a single type of oil for both ways and the
gearbox.

There is some anecdotal evidence that some of the Chinese machinery that
actually comes pre-filled with oil contains inferior product that needs to
be got rid of more or less right away. Thus it would seem to me that
provided the above principles are adhered to one should get a good result
with almost anything commonly available.

BTW I noticed one of the manuals recommending calcium-based grease (for
greasing, not in the gear box). Does anyone use that anymore?

--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC

On 2009-07-08, Michael Koblic wrote:
Brian Lawson wrote:

Tellus 32 is a (if not THE) standard for use in hydraulic elevators as
the power transmitter. I doubt it is available retail in smaller
quantities, but is readily available in 20 litre (about 5 US gallon)
at anyplace from a Shell Distributor to a tractor supply or a good
hardware store. For a quart or two, ask any elevator company.


I have followed this thread for its educational value and potential
relevance to me in the future. I have also found a few discussions on the
topic on several different fora. I was kind of surprised that the whole
issue is akin to black magic.

Not quite that bad.

I had a look at a manual of one of the potential acquisitions (a gear-head
lathe) made in China. The instructions were to fill the gear box with "10#
or 20# machine oil". A Google search reveals no such beast. I took it to
mean SAE 10 or 20. From the various discussions it became clear that this
oil must:
1) Not have detergent
2) Not foam
3) Not have additives that attack copper/brass/bronze

If you look for a SAE 10 or SAE 20 single-weight motor oil which
is marked "ND" it *will* be non-detergent, will not have additives to
worry about, and should not foam.

The worries come with multi-grade motor oils, which *will* have
detergents, and will be made to pass through a filter (which is not
present in the oil circulation path in a lathe headstock, even assuming
that you got a gearhead lathe -- a much more serious one than the ones
with belt drive to the spindle such as mine.

A trip around town quickly established that such oil is apparently hard to
find in auto shops or tool shops. An enquiry about presence of detergent
leads to the shop staff's eyes glazing over.

Again -- look for the letters "ND" on a single-weight motor oil.

An internet search revealed
some helpful comparison charts like the one in this thread:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=27108

Further searches for *Canadian* sources of such industry standards as Mobil
Vactra suggested that this stuff is simply not available here (if you wish
further information from Mobil you can either read and accept a yard-long
disclaimer before e-mailing them or phone the 1-800 number which has a modem
on the other end!) The high end tool supplier (KBC Tools) sells EEZ way oil
but nothing specifically for gears. I did find a Shell dealer in town with
extremely helpful staff but the minimum quantities of their Tellus
(hydraulic) and Tonna (way oil) they sell were 20 litres.

Ask them who their customers are, and ask a customer whether you
can buy a couple of liters from them. Come supplied with a box of
donuts or something similar and they are more likely to be helpful. :-)

I was wondering:
1) What are the usual quantities of oil needed to fill a gear box in a
lathe?

I don't have a lathe which has a gearbox, so I don't know, but I
would suggest probably four or five litres.

2) How often do you need to change the oil?

Very seldom, once you change it once to replace the stuff the
manufacturer supplied.

3) What is wrong with just grabbing a bottle of 75W-90 or higher gear oil
off the automotive shelf? Do any of those have detergents?

If the gear assembly does not have a filter in the oil path
(unlikely in a differential or a manual transmission -- not sure in an
automatic transmission), then the oil should be non-detergent. But I
don't know how thick the oil might be. What is proper for the
differential on a car (much slower rotational speeds, and the oil is
designed for the sliding friction of the hypoid gears common in the
differential) is too thick for the higher speeds in a lathe headstock
gearbox. The oil used in the apron of my belt-drive Clausing is much
thicker and would be a very poor choice in a geared headstock.

I could find no
evidence that this is the case. Most product informations sheet contain
results of the copper strip test.

So -- you need to learn how to interpret the information
provided. (No -- I've never seen the information sheets so I don't
know.)

4) What is the downside of using a single type of oil for both ways and the
gearbox.

Waylube is *way* too thick for the headstock gearbox.

The lube for the gearbox is *way* too thin to hold its place on
the ways. And you want to frequently clean and re-lube the ways --
after each use, ideally. Among other things, this keeps water from
condensing on them.

There is some anecdotal evidence that some of the Chinese machinery that
actually comes pre-filled with oil contains inferior product that needs to
be got rid of more or less right away. Thus it would seem to me that
provided the above principles are adhered to one should get a good result
with almost anything commonly available.

Something of the right weight which is non-detergent, yes.

BTW I noticed one of the manuals recommending calcium-based grease (for
greasing, not in the gear box). Does anyone use that anymore?

Calcium-based? Not lithium based like Lubriplate (which you can
get from MSC among other places.) For that matter, you can get Vactra
and other oils in relatively small containers. However, I have gone
most of the way through a 20-gallon drum of Vacra No. 2 -- used on
several lathes, the milling machines, and the shaper.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Michael Koblic" wrote in
:

I had a look at a manual of one of the potential acquisitions (a
gear-head lathe) made in China. The instructions were to fill the gear
box with "10# or 20# machine oil". A Google search reveals no such
beast. I took it to mean SAE 10 or 20. From the various discussions it
became clear that this oil must:
1) Not have detergent
2) Not foam
3) Not have additives that attack copper/brass/bronze

A trip around town quickly established that such oil is apparently
hard to find in auto shops or tool shops. An enquiry about presence of
detergent leads to the shop staff's eyes glazing over.
snip

ISO 32, 46, 68 hydraulic oil can be purchased in gallon quantities at the
local Wally World and Can Tire, IIRC.

My lathe calls for an obsolete Esso oil. The factory support engineer
cross referenced it to their current turbine oil product for me. $50 for a
20 liter pail seemed reasonable for a lifetime supply given what a pack of
carbide inserts goes for. The bulk oil place had it for me in a couple
days.


I was wondering:
1) What are the usual quantities of oil needed to fill a gear box in a
lathe?

About a gallon or two for an average home sized machine.


2) How often do you need to change the oil?

New machine, home use, change it after a few hours use in every speed
range. After that once a decade or so, sooner if the oil in the sight glass
becomes discolored.

3) What is wrong with just grabbing a bottle of 75W-90 or higher gear
oil off the automotive shelf? Do any of those have detergents? I could
find no evidence that this is the case. Most product informations
sheet contain results of the copper strip test.

Don't go higher, ISO 68 or SAE 80 is about as viscous as you should ever
need for a larger lathe. Probably lower if it's a smaller machine capable
of higher RPM.
I use ISO 32 in my 14" lathe.


4) What is the downside of using a single type of oil for both ways
and the gearbox.

Way oil has additives to give it tacky properties, it clings to the ways
instead of sliding off. Dirt clings to the oil between and during use so
any old machine oil applied at the start of work would be better than
runnning the machine over old way oil. Plain oil on ways is great for home
use, just apply a little nore frequently.


There is some anecdotal evidence that some of the Chinese machinery
that actually comes pre-filled with oil contains inferior product that
needs to be got rid of more or less right away. Thus it would seem to
me that provided the above principles are adhered to one should get a
good result with almost anything commonly available.

Probably wise to ditch the Chinese oil to wash out the remaining casting
sand and leftover swarf.....

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2009-07-08, Michael Koblic wrote:
Brian Lawson wrote:

Tellus 32 is a (if not THE) standard for use in hydraulic elevators as
the power transmitter. I doubt it is available retail in smaller
quantities, but is readily available in 20 litre (about 5 US gallon)
at anyplace from a Shell Distributor to a tractor supply or a good
hardware store. For a quart or two, ask any elevator company.


I have followed this thread for its educational value and potential
relevance to me in the future. I have also found a few discussions on the
topic on several different fora. I was kind of surprised that the whole
issue is akin to black magic.

Not quite that bad.

I had a look at a manual of one of the potential acquisitions (a
gear-head
lathe) made in China. The instructions were to fill the gear box with
"10#
or 20# machine oil". A Google search reveals no such beast. I took it to
mean SAE 10 or 20. From the various discussions it became clear that this
oil must:
1) Not have detergent
2) Not foam
3) Not have additives that attack copper/brass/bronze

If you look for a SAE 10 or SAE 20 single-weight motor oil which
is marked "ND" it *will* be non-detergent, will not have additives to
worry about, and should not foam.

The worries come with multi-grade motor oils, which *will* have
detergents, and will be made to pass through a filter (which is not
present in the oil circulation path in a lathe headstock, even assuming
that you got a gearhead lathe -- a much more serious one than the ones
with belt drive to the spindle such as mine.

A trip around town quickly established that such oil is apparently hard
to
find in auto shops or tool shops. An enquiry about presence of detergent
leads to the shop staff's eyes glazing over.

Again -- look for the letters "ND" on a single-weight motor oil.

An internet search revealed
some helpful comparison charts like the one in this thread:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=27108

Further searches for *Canadian* sources of such industry standards as
Mobil
Vactra suggested that this stuff is simply not available here (if you
wish
further information from Mobil you can either read and accept a yard-long
disclaimer before e-mailing them or phone the 1-800 number which has a
modem
on the other end!) The high end tool supplier (KBC Tools) sells EEZ way
oil
but nothing specifically for gears. I did find a Shell dealer in town
with
extremely helpful staff but the minimum quantities of their Tellus
(hydraulic) and Tonna (way oil) they sell were 20 litres.

Ask them who their customers are, and ask a customer whether you
can buy a couple of liters from them. Come supplied with a box of
donuts or something similar and they are more likely to be helpful. :-)

I was wondering:
1) What are the usual quantities of oil needed to fill a gear box in a
lathe?

I don't have a lathe which has a gearbox, so I don't know, but I
would suggest probably four or five litres.

2) How often do you need to change the oil?

Very seldom, once you change it once to replace the stuff the
manufacturer supplied.

3) What is wrong with just grabbing a bottle of 75W-90 or higher gear oil
off the automotive shelf? Do any of those have detergents?

If the gear assembly does not have a filter in the oil path
(unlikely in a differential or a manual transmission -- not sure in an
automatic transmission), then the oil should be non-detergent. But I
don't know how thick the oil might be. What is proper for the
differential on a car (much slower rotational speeds, and the oil is
designed for the sliding friction of the hypoid gears common in the
differential) is too thick for the higher speeds in a lathe headstock
gearbox. The oil used in the apron of my belt-drive Clausing is much
thicker and would be a very poor choice in a geared headstock.

I could find
no
evidence that this is the case. Most product informations sheet contain
results of the copper strip test.

So -- you need to learn how to interpret the information
provided. (No -- I've never seen the information sheets so I don't
know.)

4) What is the downside of using a single type of oil for both ways and
the
gearbox.

Waylube is *way* too thick for the headstock gearbox.

The lube for the gearbox is *way* too thin to hold its place on
the ways. And you want to frequently clean and re-lube the ways --
after each use, ideally. Among other things, this keeps water from
condensing on them.

There is some anecdotal evidence that some of the Chinese machinery that
actually comes pre-filled with oil contains inferior product that needs
to
be got rid of more or less right away. Thus it would seem to me that
provided the above principles are adhered to one should get a good result
with almost anything commonly available.

Something of the right weight which is non-detergent, yes.

BTW I noticed one of the manuals recommending calcium-based grease (for
greasing, not in the gear box). Does anyone use that anymore?

Calcium-based? Not lithium based like Lubriplate (which you can
get from MSC among other places.) For that matter, you can get Vactra
and other oils in relatively small containers. However, I have gone
most of the way through a 20-gallon drum of Vacra No. 2 -- used on
several lathes, the milling machines, and the shaper.

Enjoy,
DoN.

Calcium-based greases (calcium-sulfonate greases) are a bit more expensive
and have a higher "dropping" point (the temperature at which the oil
separates from the metallic soap). It's a good extreme-pressure grease. If
you have a machine that specifies its use, it would be a good idea to use it
because pressure may be an issue. But there aren't a lot of such
applications outside of food machinery or machines exposed to salt water.

Detergent oils don't foam; at least, if they foam, it's not because they're
detergent oils. It's probably because the oil has water or acid in it. The
detergent is nothing like detergents used with water. The main function of a
detergent oil is to suspend contaminants. In a total-loss oiling system (the
headstock of a South Bend plain-bearing lathe, for example), it actually
makes no difference if it's detergent or not. In a recirculating system
without filtration, it could be a problem. Some big old motors and such that
have ring-type oilers running in a bath would at least need to have their
oil changed more frequently. If you have an old motor (or an old lathe with
a plain-bearing headstock, for that matter) using detergent oil in it could
loosen up some old crud and cause problems. But it's really unlikely to do
so.

I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years. Maybe
for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent oil I've
seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill supply stores.

The quantities of oil we use for lathe headstocks, if the subject line is
still relevant (I didn't read the whole thread) is so small that it's worth
getting the right stuff. Jim Rozen, if you remember him, has convinced me
that an old South Bend runs better with synthetic oil. I haven't changed
mine over yet, but five or six years ago I had a talk with a VP at Mobil Oil
and it was clear that their synthetic machine oil would be great, if you
could buy a small enough quantity. She (a tribology engineer) said that
using Mobil 1 automotive engine oil, as Jim is doing, is just as good in a
total-loss system. I think he's using 0W-10W in his South Bend.

--
Ed Huntress

On Jul 8, 5:36*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years. Maybe
for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent oil I've
seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill supply stores..


Ed Huntress

You just have not been looking. Walmart sells ND motor oil. Not sure
why other people buy it, but it is generally recommended for use in
lawn mowers and similar gas engines that have no oil filter.

Dan

wrote in message
...
On Jul 8, 5:36 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years.
Maybe
for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent oil I've
seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill supply stores.


Ed Huntress

You just have not been looking. Walmart sells ND motor oil. Not sure
why other people buy it, but it is generally recommended for use in
lawn mowers and similar gas engines that have no oil filter.

I can see that, but my lawnmower gets whatever is left over from the last
time I changed the oil in the car. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:39:02 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

BIG BIG SNIP
3) What is wrong with just grabbing a bottle of 75W-90 or higher gear oil
off the automotive shelf? Do any of those have detergents? I could find no
evidence that this is the case. Most product informations sheet contain
results of the copper strip test.
MORE SNIP

Hey Michael,

About this point 3) only..... Some smaller or entry level geared-head
lathes that have no pressure oiler component are "lubed" by the
lighter weight oil "slinging" (like the big end of an auto engine
splashing in the pan). They won't have designed slingers per se, but
merely by running some gear component in the bath throws oil
EVERYWHERE (that's why they leak so bad). That won't happen with the
hypoid gear lube products.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps...Don't forget my suggestion to ask any elevator guy for a gallon
of Tellus 32 (or Rando, or Harmony, or or or). Another posters idea
about donuts sounds good!! Park at any downtown Timmy's about 9:30
and look for a van with a company logo.

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 00:36:38 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrawled the following:


Calcium-based greases (calcium-sulfonate greases) are a bit more expensive
and have a higher "dropping" point (the temperature at which the oil
separates from the metallic soap). It's a good extreme-pressure grease. If
you have a machine that specifies its use, it would be a good idea to use it
because pressure may be an issue. But there aren't a lot of such
applications outside of food machinery or machines exposed to salt water.

Wouldn't one of the newer moly (or other high-tech) greases work even
better, Ed?


-snip-

I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years. Maybe
for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent oil I've
seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill supply stores.

I've been using detergent 30wt oil (Castrol GTX) in my mowers for that
long with no ill effects.

--
After silence, that which comes nearest
to expressing the inexpressible is music.
-- Aldous Huxley

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 00:36:38 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrawled the following:


Calcium-based greases (calcium-sulfonate greases) are a bit more expensive
and have a higher "dropping" point (the temperature at which the oil
separates from the metallic soap). It's a good extreme-pressure grease. If
you have a machine that specifies its use, it would be a good idea to use
it
because pressure may be an issue. But there aren't a lot of such
applications outside of food machinery or machines exposed to salt water.

Wouldn't one of the newer moly (or other high-tech) greases work even
better, Ed?

I don't know. Besides the pressure, there is the dropping point, and
contaminant issues for several environments and applications. Unless you
study the subject a bit, it's a good idea to go with the manufacturer's
recommendations. If you don't know what they are, then it's worth studying
the subject a bit.



-snip-

I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years.
Maybe
for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent oil I've
seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill supply stores.

I've been using detergent 30wt oil (Castrol GTX) in my mowers for that
long with no ill effects.

Mine gets mostly 10W-30...or whatever else is laying around. I figure the
old Honda will outlast me.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 00:36:38 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

big snip
I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years. Maybe
for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent oil I've
seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill supply stores.

It is still around, but you have to LOOK for it. NAPA sells
SAE 30 I believe (too lazy to go read the bottle).

Some other substitutes you might be able to find; Chainsaw
bar oil is sticky and could be used on the ways. Air
compressor oil (used in the compressor case) is usually
non-detergent and around SAE 20 weight. Hydraulic oil is
normally around SAE 10 weight, non-detergent and can be used
for general purpose lube.

Some files/reference you may find of interest:

http://metalworking.com/DropBox/_200...icants2001.pdf

This has some specs for different weight designations among
lots of other info:

http://www.metalwebnews.org/ftp/lube.pdf

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 00:36:38 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

big snip
I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years.
Maybe
for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent oil I've
seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill supply stores.

It is still around, but you have to LOOK for it. NAPA sells
SAE 30 I believe (too lazy to go read the bottle).

Some other substitutes you might be able to find; Chainsaw
bar oil is sticky and could be used on the ways. Air
compressor oil (used in the compressor case) is usually
non-detergent and around SAE 20 weight. Hydraulic oil is
normally around SAE 10 weight, non-detergent and can be used
for general purpose lube.

Some files/reference you may find of interest:

http://metalworking.com/DropBox/_200...icants2001.pdf

This has some specs for different weight designations among
lots of other info:

http://www.metalwebnews.org/ftp/lube.pdf

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Hey, thanks, Leon. That's useful stuff.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:58:41 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrawled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 00:36:38 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrawled the following:


Calcium-based greases (calcium-sulfonate greases) are a bit more expensive
and have a higher "dropping" point (the temperature at which the oil
separates from the metallic soap). It's a good extreme-pressure grease. If
you have a machine that specifies its use, it would be a good idea to use
it
because pressure may be an issue. But there aren't a lot of such
applications outside of food machinery or machines exposed to salt water.

Wouldn't one of the newer moly (or other high-tech) greases work even
better, Ed?

I don't know. Besides the pressure, there is the dropping point, and
contaminant issues for several environments and applications. Unless you
study the subject a bit, it's a good idea to go with the manufacturer's
recommendations. If you don't know what they are, then it's worth studying
the subject a bit.

That sounds like good advice.


-snip-

I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years.
Maybe
for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent oil I've
seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill supply stores.

I've been using detergent 30wt oil (Castrol GTX) in my mowers for that
long with no ill effects.

Mine gets mostly 10W-30...or whatever else is laying around. I figure the
old Honda will outlast me.

Hondas are well made, fer sher.

--
After silence, that which comes nearest
to expressing the inexpressible is music.
-- Aldous Huxley

Ed Huntress wrote:


I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years. Maybe
for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent oil I've
seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill supply stores.

There I was, ready to hop in and say I bought it by the case to run in
the outboard. And that was only... um.....40 years ago.

Anyway, Google says Ace Hardware carries it, and there are Ace Hardware
stores in Canada.

I run Mobil 1 in my SB9, at Jim's suggestion. Works for me.

Kevin Gallimore

"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:


I haven't seen motor oil that was non-detergent for at least 40 years.
Maybe for farm machinery or something similar. All of the non-detergent
oil I've seen is sold as machine oil and I've seen it mostly in mill
supply stores.

There I was, ready to hop in and say I bought it by the case to run in the
outboard. And that was only... um.....40 years ago.

Anyway, Google says Ace Hardware carries it, and there are Ace Hardware
stores in Canada.

I run Mobil 1 in my SB9, at Jim's suggestion. Works for me.

Kevin Gallimore

Have you noticed any difference since you started using Mobil 1?

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

Have you noticed any difference since you started using Mobil 1?


Not on the SB, as I put Mobil 1 in it as soon as I brought it home. I
did switch to synthetic on my plain bearing Stark, and noticed a
significant reduction in the headstock temperature.

Kevin Gallimore

"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Have you noticed any difference since you started using Mobil 1?


Not on the SB, as I put Mobil 1 in it as soon as I brought it home. I did
switch to synthetic on my plain bearing Stark, and noticed a significant
reduction in the headstock temperature.

Kevin Gallimore

Yeah, that's what Jim reported on the SB10L he was running at work. As soon
as I get some more time in the shop I plan to clean out the cups and the
saddle reservoir, and switch to synthetic all the way.

--
Ed Huntress

DoN. Nichols wrote:

[big snip]

I could
find no evidence that this is the case. Most product informations
sheet contain results of the copper strip test.

So -- you need to learn how to interpret the information
provided. (No -- I've never seen the information sheets so I don't
know.)

What? Don't they teach the ASTM D 130 in high schools any more?

4) What is the downside of using a single type of oil for both ways
and the gearbox.

Waylube is *way* too thick for the headstock gearbox.
[...]

There is a lot of info to summarize and comment on. I shall do so later.

Calcium-based? Not lithium based like Lubriplate (which you can
get from MSC among other places.) For that matter, you can get Vactra
and other oils in relatively small containers.

No, *you* can get Vactra...:-)

--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC

Brian Lawson wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:39:02 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

BIG BIG SNIP

About this point 3) only..... Some smaller or entry level geared-head
lathes that have no pressure oiler component are "lubed" by the
lighter weight oil "slinging" (like the big end of an auto engine
splashing in the pan). They won't have designed slingers per se, but
merely by running some gear component in the bath throws oil
EVERYWHERE (that's why they leak so bad). That won't happen with the
hypoid gear lube products.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps...Don't forget my suggestion to ask any elevator guy for a gallon
of Tellus 32 (or Rando, or Harmony, or or or). Another posters idea
about donuts sounds good!! Park at any downtown Timmy's about 9:30
and look for a van with a company logo.

I tried to make sense from the wealth of responses that have been posted :-)

The viscosity recommendations for gearboxes seem to stretch from SAE 0-10W
(Mobil 1 in a total-loss system) to ISO 68. Now to know if the Chinese
wonderproduct is a total-loss system or if it slings oil. Or both.

There is some diversity of opinion regarding using the same oil for the ways
and the gearbox. I interpret the consensus that way oil cannot be used in a
gearbox but gearbox oil *might* be OK on the ways for home use with more
frequent application (I was interested to see that KBC sell the way oil in
weights between 10 and 50 - i.e. starting pretty thin).

Today I wandered into the neighbouring town and there in Wallmart I saw 20 l
buckets of their own brand hydraulic oil - ISO46 and 68. Cost was about $40.
If I understood correctly the expected use would be about 10 l in the first
fortnight so this is quite a good deal.

BTW there is AFAIK only one ACE Hardware in Canada - Mission, BC.

I was interested in reading Ed H's opinion on the Calcium based grease. My
own reading suggested that it was obsolete but I cannot vouch for the
source. I simply thought that the Chinese have not yet discovered lithium.
Or molybdenum.

I still think that a suitable incantation accompanied by a sacrifice of a
cockerel or a virgin will achieve the desired results...

--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC

PS Sat at Timmies for a long time. Policemen seem to know little about
engine oil...

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
Brian Lawson wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:39:02 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

BIG BIG SNIP

About this point 3) only..... Some smaller or entry level geared-head
lathes that have no pressure oiler component are "lubed" by the
lighter weight oil "slinging" (like the big end of an auto engine
splashing in the pan). They won't have designed slingers per se, but
merely by running some gear component in the bath throws oil
EVERYWHERE (that's why they leak so bad). That won't happen with the
hypoid gear lube products.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps...Don't forget my suggestion to ask any elevator guy for a gallon
of Tellus 32 (or Rando, or Harmony, or or or). Another posters idea
about donuts sounds good!! Park at any downtown Timmy's about 9:30
and look for a van with a company logo.

I tried to make sense from the wealth of responses that have been posted
:-)

The viscosity recommendations for gearboxes seem to stretch from SAE 0-10W
(Mobil 1 in a total-loss system) to ISO 68. Now to know if the Chinese
wonderproduct is a total-loss system or if it slings oil. Or both.

There is some diversity of opinion regarding using the same oil for the
ways and the gearbox. I interpret the consensus that way oil cannot be
used in a gearbox but gearbox oil *might* be OK on the ways for home use
with more frequent application (I was interested to see that KBC sell the
way oil in weights between 10 and 50 - i.e. starting pretty thin).

Today I wandered into the neighbouring town and there in Wallmart I saw 20
l buckets of their own brand hydraulic oil - ISO46 and 68. Cost was about
$40. If I understood correctly the expected use would be about 10 l in the
first fortnight so this is quite a good deal.

BTW there is AFAIK only one ACE Hardware in Canada - Mission, BC.

I was interested in reading Ed H's opinion on the Calcium based grease. My
own reading suggested that it was obsolete but I cannot vouch for the
source. I simply thought that the Chinese have not yet discovered lithium.
Or molybdenum.

I still think that a suitable incantation accompanied by a sacrifice of a
cockerel or a virgin will achieve the desired results...

Ha! Two of my responsibilities, when I was an editor at _American Machinist_
(the old version) were gearmaking and tribology. I read several heavy
engineering books on each subject. Gear design was like being locked in a
room with a mad German scientist. Tribology was a lot like witchcraft. d8-)

The science of lubrication has made a lot of progress since "tribology"
became an accepted term in the mid-'60s. Old information often is of
practical value, but it's also likely to be scientifically, factually wrong.
Most of what I learned then is probably recognized as being wrong now.

So I can't offer any info with real confidence, except to say that the specs
for high-performance applications, especially aerospace, are generally
science-based. Automotive lubrication today is highly science-based. Specs
for machine tools and such tend to be empirical, except where oil-company
recommendations are being followed. They're generally science-based, too.

But, FWIW, I'm one of those who hoards his stock of white lead for
lubricating the dead-center on my lathe. d8-) I tend to go with what worked
50 years ago, unless I have real confidence in the source of newer
information. A lot of the promotional literature on lubrication is full of
baloney.

For example, do you remember Amalie (sp?) motor oil? It was highly touted
for use in air-cooled motorcycles, because it had a high paraffin content.
That was in the early to mid-'60s. By 1970, the science of it had gotten
around the motorcycle community and it was recognized that paraffin is the
*last* thing you want in an oil for a motorcycle engine.

That's the way a lot of it goes. There is good scientific information
available on these lubricants, but don't count on learning it from the
suppliers -- except for the major oil companies. It's one thing they do
well.

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 02:54:12 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

snip
For example, do you remember Amalie (sp?) motor oil? It was highly touted
for use in air-cooled motorcycles, because it had a high paraffin content.
That was in the early to mid-'60s. By 1970, the science of it had gotten
around the motorcycle community and it was recognized that paraffin is the
*last* thing you want in an oil for a motorcycle engine.

Not trying to slam anyone, but Pennzoil cost me a wet clutch
in my 1976 Honda 550-4 years ago. I've been really cautious
ever since, always getting oil spec'd for 4-cycle
motorcycles and wet clutches. Live and learn...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On 2009-07-09, Michael Koblic wrote:
Brian Lawson wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:39:02 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

BIG BIG SNIP

About this point 3) only..... Some smaller or entry level geared-head
lathes that have no pressure oiler component are "lubed" by the
lighter weight oil "slinging" (like the big end of an auto engine
splashing in the pan). They won't have designed slingers per se, but
merely by running some gear component in the bath throws oil
EVERYWHERE (that's why they leak so bad). That won't happen with the
hypoid gear lube products.

[ ... ]

The viscosity recommendations for gearboxes seem to stretch from SAE 0-10W
(Mobil 1 in a total-loss system) to ISO 68. Now to know if the Chinese
wonderproduct is a total-loss system or if it slings oil. Or both.

The first question is whether it has levers on the front of the
headstock for shifting gears. If so, it probably slings oil (a Chinese
one is not likely to have pressurized oil feed). If it has a belt drive
in which you either change belts to different pulley steps, or has a
variable-speed pulley arrangement, or a variable speed DC motor, but the
last is not likely to be found on a 12" swing machine.) The levers on
the front move gears in a sealed gear compartment, and those gears sling
the oil. The others have belts driving the spindle directly, perhaps
through two sets of belts, and there is no sealed area for the oil to be
slung around. Instead, there are oil cups which feed oil to the
bearings, an oil point in the pulley cone on the spindle for use with
the back gear, oil points on the threading gearing, and oil points on
the quick-change threading gearbox -- all of which drip away over time
instead of being recirculated, thus they are total-loss systems.

So -- look at the lathe you get and it will be pretty easy to
tell which is which. Note that a gearhead lathe (recirculating oil)
will be much heavier than a belt driven one (total loss).

There is some diversity of opinion regarding using the same oil for the ways
and the gearbox. I interpret the consensus that way oil cannot be used in a
gearbox but gearbox oil *might* be OK on the ways for home use with more
frequent application

*Much* more frequent application. Perhaps several times during
an evening's turning for the lighter oils.

(I was interested to see that KBC sell the way oil in
weights between 10 and 50 - i.e. starting pretty thin).

Note that the weights of oils can be quite misleading. *All* way
lubes, even the lightest, will be much thicker than the oils for the
headstock. Compare hypoid gear oil and say 30 weight motor oil, and at
room temperature you may find a lot less difference between them than
you would expect from the difference in numbers.

Today I wandered into the neighbouring town and there in Wallmart I saw 20 l
buckets of their own brand hydraulic oil - ISO46 and 68. Cost was about $40.
If I understood correctly the expected use would be about 10 l in the first
fortnight so this is quite a good deal.

Great!

BTW there is AFAIK only one ACE Hardware in Canada - Mission, BC.

Hmm ... I don't know where the nearest Ace Hardware is around
here, FWIW.

I was interested in reading Ed H's opinion on the Calcium based grease. My
own reading suggested that it was obsolete but I cannot vouch for the
source. I simply thought that the Chinese have not yet discovered lithium.
Or molybdenum.

I would trust what Ed says. It will be well researched.

I still think that a suitable incantation accompanied by a sacrifice of a
cockerel or a virgin will achieve the desired results...

No -- a virgin cockerel, which is more difficult to find. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Ed Huntress wrote:

I still think that a suitable incantation accompanied by a sacrifice
of a cockerel or a virgin will achieve the desired results...

Ha! Two of my responsibilities, when I was an editor at _American
Machinist_ (the old version) were gearmaking and tribology. I read
several heavy engineering books on each subject. Gear design was like
being locked in a room with a mad German scientist. Tribology was a
lot like witchcraft. d8-)

Where I was born they still burn tribologists at the stake I think...

The science of lubrication has made a lot of progress since
"tribology" became an accepted term in the mid-'60s. Old information
often is of practical value, but it's also likely to be
scientifically, factually wrong. Most of what I learned then is
probably recognized as being wrong now.
So I can't offer any info with real confidence, except to say that
the specs for high-performance applications, especially aerospace,
are generally science-based. Automotive lubrication today is highly
science-based. Specs for machine tools and such tend to be empirical,
except where oil-company recommendations are being followed. They're
generally science-based, too.

Chinese machine manuals are based on feng shui and i-ching.

[...]

That's the way a lot of it goes. There is good scientific information
available on these lubricants, but don't count on learning it from the
suppliers -- except for the major oil companies. It's one thing they
do well.

Lot of the time it is half the battle to find what is the reliable source of
information on a subject.

--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC

DoN. Nichols wrote:
..

[ ... ]

The viscosity recommendations for gearboxes seem to stretch from SAE
0-10W (Mobil 1 in a total-loss system) to ISO 68. Now to know if the
Chinese wonderproduct is a total-loss system or if it slings oil. Or
both.

The first question is whether it has levers on the front of the
headstock for shifting gears. If so, it probably slings oil (a
Chinese one is not likely to have pressurized oil feed). If it has a
belt drive in which you either change belts to different pulley
steps, or has a variable-speed pulley arrangement, or a variable
speed DC motor, but the last is not likely to be found on a 12" swing
machine.) The levers on the front move gears in a sealed gear
compartment, and those gears sling the oil. The others have belts
driving the spindle directly, perhaps through two sets of belts, and
there is no sealed area for the oil to be slung around. Instead,
there are oil cups which feed oil to the bearings, an oil point in
the pulley cone on the spindle for use with the back gear, oil points
on the threading gearing, and oil points on the quick-change
threading gearbox -- all of which drip away over time instead of
being recirculated, thus they are total-loss systems.

OK, that is useful.

So -- look at the lathe you get and it will be pretty easy to
tell which is which. Note that a gearhead lathe (recirculating oil)
will be much heavier than a belt driven one (total loss).

There is some diversity of opinion regarding using the same oil for
the ways and the gearbox. I interpret the consensus that way oil
cannot be used in a gearbox but gearbox oil *might* be OK on the
ways for home use with more frequent application

*Much* more frequent application. Perhaps several times during
an evening's turning for the lighter oils.

Yes. I thought the cross-over point is somewhere near ISO 68. However, I
read a horror story of a person who bought one of these lathes, filled it
with the "recommended" oil and had difficulty starting it up in winter.

(I was interested to see that KBC sell the way
oil in weights between 10 and 50 - i.e. starting pretty thin).

Note that the weights of oils can be quite misleading. *All* way
lubes, even the lightest, will be much thicker than the oils for the
headstock. Compare hypoid gear oil and say 30 weight motor oil, and
at room temperature you may find a lot less difference between them
than you would expect from the difference in numbers.

30-weight motor oil should be comparable thickness to 85W gear oil - that is
pretty thick, isn't it?

Today I wandered into the neighbouring town and there in Wallmart I
saw 20 l buckets of their own brand hydraulic oil - ISO46 and 68.
Cost was about $40. If I understood correctly the expected use would
be about 10 l in the first fortnight so this is quite a good deal.

Great!

Particularly if you can slather the rest on the ways...:-)

BTW there is AFAIK only one ACE Hardware in Canada - Mission, BC.

Hmm ... I don't know where the nearest Ace Hardware is around
here, FWIW.

I know where there is on in Atlanta - but that is a long story.

I was interested in reading Ed H's opinion on the Calcium based
grease. My own reading suggested that it was obsolete but I cannot
vouch for the source. I simply thought that the Chinese have not yet
discovered lithium. Or molybdenum.

I would trust what Ed says. It will be well researched.

I still think that a suitable incantation accompanied by a sacrifice
of a cockerel or a virgin will achieve the desired results...

No -- a virgin cockerel, which is more difficult to find. :-)

Well, it is pretty hard to find a virgin around these parts. Or three wise
men for that matter.

--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

I still think that a suitable incantation accompanied by a sacrifice
of a cockerel or a virgin will achieve the desired results...

Ha! Two of my responsibilities, when I was an editor at _American
Machinist_ (the old version) were gearmaking and tribology. I read
several heavy engineering books on each subject. Gear design was like
being locked in a room with a mad German scientist. Tribology was a
lot like witchcraft. d8-)

Where I was born they still burn tribologists at the stake I think...

The science of lubrication has made a lot of progress since
"tribology" became an accepted term in the mid-'60s. Old information
often is of practical value, but it's also likely to be
scientifically, factually wrong. Most of what I learned then is
probably recognized as being wrong now.
So I can't offer any info with real confidence, except to say that
the specs for high-performance applications, especially aerospace,
are generally science-based. Automotive lubrication today is highly
science-based. Specs for machine tools and such tend to be empirical,
except where oil-company recommendations are being followed. They're
generally science-based, too.

Chinese machine manuals are based on feng shui and i-ching.

[...]

That's the way a lot of it goes. There is good scientific information
available on these lubricants, but don't count on learning it from the
suppliers -- except for the major oil companies. It's one thing they
do well.

Lot of the time it is half the battle to find what is the reliable source
of information on a subject.

Oh, yeah. That was a very big issue when I was writing for metalworking
magazines, because you really need experts to get your facts straight...or
someone will write a letter to the editor and let you know that the one you
quoted, wasn't. g

--
Ed Huntress

On 2009-07-10, Michael Koblic wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
.

[ ... ]

The viscosity recommendations for gearboxes seem to stretch from SAE
0-10W (Mobil 1 in a total-loss system) to ISO 68. Now to know if the
Chinese wonderproduct is a total-loss system or if it slings oil. Or
both.

The first question is whether it has levers on the front of the
headstock for shifting gears. If so, it probably slings oil (a

[ ... distinguishing features snipped ... ]

OK, that is useful.

So -- look at the lathe you get and it will be pretty easy to
tell which is which. Note that a gearhead lathe (recirculating oil)
will be much heavier than a belt driven one (total loss).

There is some diversity of opinion regarding using the same oil for
the ways and the gearbox. I interpret the consensus that way oil
cannot be used in a gearbox but gearbox oil *might* be OK on the
ways for home use with more frequent application

*Much* more frequent application. Perhaps several times during
an evening's turning for the lighter oils.

Yes. I thought the cross-over point is somewhere near ISO 68. However, I
read a horror story of a person who bought one of these lathes, filled it
with the "recommended" oil and had difficulty starting it up in winter.

The recommendations may have been for a more tropical climate. :-)

(I was interested to see that KBC sell the way
oil in weights between 10 and 50 - i.e. starting pretty thin).

Note that the weights of oils can be quite misleading. *All* way
lubes, even the lightest, will be much thicker than the oils for the
headstock. Compare hypoid gear oil and say 30 weight motor oil, and
at room temperature you may find a lot less difference between them
than you would expect from the difference in numbers.

30-weight motor oil should be comparable thickness to 85W gear oil - that is
pretty thick, isn't it?

Depends on the temperature. At comfortable shop temperatures,
it is still fairly thin -- especially compared to Vactra No. 2 Waylube.

Today I wandered into the neighbouring town and there in Wallmart I
saw 20 l buckets of their own brand hydraulic oil - ISO46 and 68.
Cost was about $40. If I understood correctly the expected use would
be about 10 l in the first fortnight so this is quite a good deal.

Great!

Particularly if you can slather the rest on the ways...:-)

I would really suggest finding Vactra No. 2 or an equivalent.
Find a professional machine shop somewhere in your area, take them some
donuts, and ask were they get their waylube and whether they will sell a
small amount to you, if you can't find a vendor who will sell small
containers. IIRC, MSC will sell as small a container as a single
gallon. It is amazing the change in the feel of the carriage handwheel
moving the carriage along the ways when you have put on Vactra after
using a thin oil. The *gears* in a gearhead want thin. The ways want
stuff which will stick to the ways and float the carriage. And the
gears under the end cover of my Clausing's headstock I lubricate with a
lithium based grease -- thick enough so it won't be flung off in
operation, thin enough so it doesn't make the lathe work harder.

[ ... ]

I was interested in reading Ed H's opinion on the Calcium based
grease. My own reading suggested that it was obsolete but I cannot
vouch for the source. I simply thought that the Chinese have not yet
discovered lithium. Or molybdenum.

I would trust what Ed says. It will be well researched.

I still think that a suitable incantation accompanied by a sacrifice
of a cockerel or a virgin will achieve the desired results...

No -- a virgin cockerel, which is more difficult to find. :-)

Well, it is pretty hard to find a virgin around these parts. Or three wise
men for that matter.

:-)

BTW If you are buying new, you might want to go for the belt driven
instead of the gearhead design. I've heard that the vibration
from the meshing of the gears introduces a pattern to the turned
surface, while belt makes a smoother finish, and what you are
making is aiming for appearance more than the heavy metal cutting
needs served by a gearhead lathe.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Ed Huntress wrote:
[...]

Lot of the time it is half the battle to find what is the reliable
source of information on a subject.

Oh, yeah. That was a very big issue when I was writing for
metalworking magazines, because you really need experts to get your
facts straight...or someone will write a letter to the editor and let
you know that the one you quoted, wasn't. g

Not just metalworking magazines :-)

I am more impressed by an article where the author uses cogent arguments
supported by literature even if I do not know his/her name than by an author
of renown who simply states his opinion.

Then there are the experts who are widely admired for their publications or
presentations at symposia but you happen to know how they actually work...

Aaargh! You nearly got me ranting!

--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC

DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

I would really suggest finding Vactra No. 2 or an equivalent.
Find a professional machine shop somewhere in your area, take them
some donuts,

What is it about engine oil and doughnuts???

and ask were they get their waylube and whether they
will sell a small amount to you, if you can't find a vendor who will
sell small containers. IIRC, MSC will sell as small a container as a
single gallon. It is amazing the change in the feel of the carriage
handwheel moving the carriage along the ways when you have put on
Vactra after using a thin oil. The *gears* in a gearhead want thin.
The ways want stuff which will stick to the ways and float the
carriage. And the gears under the end cover of my Clausing's
headstock I lubricate with a lithium based grease -- thick enough so
it won't be flung off in operation, thin enough so it doesn't make
the lathe work harder.

NLGI #2 ?

[ ... ]

BTW If you are buying new, you might want to go for the belt driven
instead of the gearhead design. I've heard that the vibration
from the meshing of the gears introduces a pattern to the turned
surface, while belt makes a smoother finish, and what you are
making is aiming for appearance more than the heavy metal cutting
needs served by a gearhead lathe.

If (and it is a pretty big if) it comes down to that I suspect that is the
way I am going. Example:

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=B2227L

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=CT039

The latter is more expensive but comes with more accessories including a
stand *and* is a belt operated.

Meanwhile I keep my eyes glued to the Craigslist.

--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC

On 2009-07-11, Michael Koblic wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

I would really suggest finding Vactra No. 2 or an equivalent.
Find a professional machine shop somewhere in your area, take them
some donuts,

What is it about engine oil and doughnuts???

Vacra No. 2 is *not* an engine oil.

and ask were they get their waylube and whether they
will sell a small amount to you, if you can't find a vendor who will
sell small containers. IIRC, MSC will sell as small a container as a
single gallon. It is amazing the change in the feel of the carriage
handwheel moving the carriage along the ways when you have put on
Vactra after using a thin oil. The *gears* in a gearhead want thin.
The ways want stuff which will stick to the ways and float the
carriage. And the gears under the end cover of my Clausing's
headstock I lubricate with a lithium based grease -- thick enough so
it won't be flung off in operation, thin enough so it doesn't make
the lathe work harder.

NLGI #2 ?

Not familiar with that.

[ ... ]

BTW If you are buying new, you might want to go for the belt driven
instead of the gearhead design. I've heard that the vibration
from the meshing of the gears introduces a pattern to the turned
surface, while belt makes a smoother finish, and what you are
making is aiming for appearance more than the heavy metal cutting
needs served by a gearhead lathe.

If (and it is a pretty big if) it comes down to that I suspect that is the
way I am going. Example:

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=B2227L

O.K. Observations:

1) It does not have a floor stand, so you will need to mount
it on a heavy duty table (say 1-1/2" thick hardwood or so.

2) Speeds: 115 - 1626 (A bit better for coarse threading, though
slower would be better -- especially at first.)

3) 1" spindle bore, so it won't accept 5C collets. (Also the
same conclusion from the MT-4 spindle taper.

4) Inch threads down to 8 TPI and up to 56 TPI. This may be
sufficient for your needs.

Metric threads as well. So which one works with the threading
dial -- if it exists?

5) 4-1/2" cross slide travel -- which limits you to facing a
workpiece no larger than 9", even though it is a 10" swing
lathe. Of course, for facing your dials, you can reset the tool
to work over the diameter range which you need, because there is
no center to the dial.

6) 170 kg.

7) 3 jaw chuck (with internal and external jaws)

8) Turret toolpost -- to be replaced with a QCTP. It will take
up to 1/2" square tool shanks -- a bit more rigid than the other
machine.

9) 4-jaw chuck is *optional* -- and you want one for maximum
precision of centering a workpiece for continuing to work on the
other end.

Backplate for the 4-jaw chuck is separate, so you will have to
fit it properly.

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=CT039

Observations:

1) Comes with floor mount pedestal, and backsplash shield, but
the shield does not come all the way down to the chip tray.

2) Spindle speeds from 130 to 2000 RPM. A bit faster at both ends
of the range. Good for some kinds of turning, bad for coarse
threading.

3) Smaller swing over bed -- 8-3/4" instead of 10".

4) 3/4" spindle bore -- even smaller, and no chance of a 5C collet
through the spindle.

5) Same range of thread pitches -- both inch and metric. Same
question as to which is native. And no listing of the
intermediate pitches -- just the extremes. Bet on neither
machine being able to cut 27 TPI threads (in case you need
those). Even some South Bend machines can't cut 27 TPI from the
quick change gearbox.

6) longitudinal feeds are about the same, and look like the
threading pitches, which means that the half nuts and leadscrew
are used for the carriage feed -- in both. Normal power feed to
the carriage is finer than the threading pitches if it is
fitted.

7) 4-jaw chuck only -- no 3-jaw for quick chucking, but you get
more precision from the 4-jaw if you take the time to tune it
properly.

8) Turret toolpost only will take up to 3/8" square tool shanks,
not as rigid as the other.

Both offer a two-year warranty -- but who knows how good the
warranty is?

The latter is more expensive but comes with more accessories including a
stand *and* is a belt operated.

And is smaller so you can't make as large a dial on it.

Meanwhile I keep my eyes glued to the Craigslist.

I'm sure that I've missed some things, and I don't notice either
specifying the spindle thread (assuming that it is a threaded spindle
nose instead of a bolt-on chuck), so we don't know whether the existing
threading capabilities can thread new backplates to adapt other chucks to
the machines.

I would suggest that you ask for experiences with both machines
from those who have used them here.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:19:39 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

snip
http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=CT039

The latter is more expensive but comes with more accessories including a
stand *and* is a belt operated.

This is one of the many 9x20 flavors offered. Similar to
HF-44996, Grizzly G4000... See:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44996

http://www.grizzly.com/products/9-x-...ch-Lathe/G4000

Mine didn't come with the 4-jaw chuck and that may be a good
thing. Most of the comments concerning it consider it
light-weight, flimsy, suitable for maybe woodworking?

The belt drive is flimsy too. It uses a special, hard to
find 5mm belt. Part number either 5M710 or 5M730. Plan on
having to fool around and align the motor, belt and driven
pulley upon assembly and clean-up. Otherwise you will be
replacing said belt all too soon.

There are many, many web pages discussing its strengths,
shortcomings and modifications. For the cost they are okay
machines after fixing the shortcomings.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Leon Fisk wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:19:39 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

snip
http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=CT039

The latter is more expensive but comes with more accessories
including a stand *and* is a belt operated.

This is one of the many 9x20 flavors offered. Similar to
HF-44996, Grizzly G4000... See:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44996

This one seems to be 14x40.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/9-x-...ch-Lathe/G4000

Mine didn't come with the 4-jaw chuck and that may be a good
thing. Most of the comments concerning it consider it
light-weight, flimsy, suitable for maybe woodworking?

The belt drive is flimsy too. It uses a special, hard to
find 5mm belt. Part number either 5M710 or 5M730. Plan on
having to fool around and align the motor, belt and driven
pulley upon assembly and clean-up. Otherwise you will be
replacing said belt all too soon.

The M belts that come in Chinese machines are supposed to be identical to 3L
but it depends on whose data you read:

http://www.sxrpcl.com/en-proview.asp?P_ID=1366

http://www.durabelt.com/crosssectioncalcinfo.php

They could be in fact K-profile belts. Now those are real bugger to get as
my numerous posts on the subject here testify.

Or it could be a real Gates belt:

http://www.catalogds.com/db/service?...y=vb elt_belt

I shall try and look inside the machine next week. The manual just says
v-belt.

There are many, many web pages discussing its strengths,
shortcomings and modifications. For the cost they are okay
machines after fixing the shortcomings.

The operative words being "for the cost" :-)

--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC