On Jun 26, 6:22 pm, "Hawke" wrote:

do. But a good zealot never quits. How about you?

Religion has no corner on zealots. We learn more every day about the
enormous complexity of DNA and the microscopic machinery that
manipulates it. We discover the fact that a single malfunction of any
part of a cell's complicated reproductive capability will render it
useless. We examine the eyeball and its millions of parts. And then we
go on believing and teaching that it all somehow just fell into place,
in spite of rapidly mounting evidence that there's absolutely no
chance it could do any such thing. That's zealotry, too.

Dan

RogerN wrote:
"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
RogerN wrote:
"Hawke" wrote in message
...
"RogerN" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
Don't swallow that crap they're feeding you. There is an entire
historical
society at the Univ. of Virginia and Monticello that has documented
Jefferson's writings. Go for the originals, not the interpretations by
those people that Jefferson most despised -- the ministers of the
church.
--
Ed Huntress
So all the pro Christian quotes from the founding fathers was not the
true
beliefs of the founding fathers, just something to sound good to the
people
of the nation? Sounds like they must have been speaking to a Christian
Nation, just like Obama quoted from the "Holy Koran" when in the middle
East
speaking to Islamic nations.

RogerN
You ought to be thanking Ed for setting you straight, correcting your
misinterpretations, and informing you with the facts. But I know you
won't.
You'll just go back to your Bible for comfort and will be silently
cursing
Ed for not agreeing with you.

Hawke


Ed had some quotes that with his explanation contradict the actions of
the
founding fathers. I pasted many quotes that were backed up by the
actions
of the founding fathers. Ed thinks his understanding is correct, there
is
no point in arguing with him. He could also claim the Earth is flat, no
use
in arguing that either. I pasted quotes and actions, he pasted quotes
with
spin, believe what you want.

RogerN


You would think that if we were a Christian nation, the name of Jesus
Christ would appear prominently in our founding documents. Yet in the
Articles of Confederation, the Declaration of Independence, and the
Constitution and Bill of Rights, there is NO mention of Jesus, and only
a small nod to a Creator.

Have you ever been to a Christian gathering where Christ is never
mentioned? Have you ever read the founding documents of a Christian
sect that does not mention Jesus?

America never was and never will be a "Christian" nation.

Here's what the founding fathers said, sorry but they did mention Jesus.


Snip 4000 lines of non-responsive text.

So, do you have any citations of Christ mentioned in the Founding documents?

Have you ever been a member of a Christian group that never mentions Christ?

Guess not, so you throw bull**** and spin, spin, spin.


Better start spinning the truth to fit what you believe!



RogerN

wrote:
On Jun 26, 6:22 pm, "Hawke" wrote:

do. But a good zealot never quits. How about you?

Religion has no corner on zealots. We learn more every day about the
enormous complexity of DNA and the microscopic machinery that
manipulates it. We discover the fact that a single malfunction of any
part of a cell's complicated reproductive capability will render it
useless.

Patently false, there, but you never actually studied upper level
Biology did you...

We examine the eyeball and its millions of parts.

And if you set out to design one, you couldn't have done it more poorly.

And then we
go on believing and teaching that it all somehow just fell into place,

No, we know that over millions of years, a very simple light sensitive
spot was able to mutate, with billions of dead-end versions, into
something that works for us as an eye.

in spite of rapidly mounting evidence that there's absolutely no
chance it could do any such thing. That's zealotry, too.

Not really up to date on the whole field of modern Developmental
Biology, are you?

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip

In Christianity from the beginning their has been different denominations
with different ideas on many details. The Bible doesn't approve of false
religions of worshipping false God's but I find zero examples of Jesus
cramming his teachings down anyone's throats or trying to force them to
his "religion".

It's a far reach from that claim to Jefferson's statement in _Notes on the
State of Virginia_, "The legitimate powers of government extend to such
acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my
neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my
pocket nor breaks my leg." Neither the old nor the new testament shows
much tolerance for 20 gods, at least 19 of which must be "false Gods." We
won't complicate this with the trinity-versus-unitarian argument. Say,
then, there were at least 17 false Gods. g

He said "it does me no injury", I could also say it did Jesus (or Billy
Graham for that matter) no injury if his next door neighbor believed in no
god or 20 gods. That has zero reflection on what Jesus believed in. It
does me no injury if my neighbor paints their house pink with purple
pokadots, but that doesn't mean I like it or approve of it, it just means
that it doesn't injure me. I work with people of different beliefs
including atheism and "it does me no injury" for what they believe.

In the New Testament the Apostles went about spreading the Gospel and
encountered people that worshipped false Gods, but that in itself did the
Apostles no injury. What did Jesus injury were the religious leaders of the
day that believed in the same God as he did.

If that's all you can say, what does it have to do with the idea that the
US Constitution was founded on "Christian principles"? It seems to have
nothing to do with it. Rather, it seems to be what cs_posting was talking
about when he said, very accurately, IMO:

That has nothing to do with the founding of the Constitution but has
everything to do with the redefining of the first amendment as is
demonstrated today. The ACLU has a lawsuit because there is a veterans
memorial cross, an 8ft cross made from pipe, in the Mojave dessert and they
want it removed because they claim it violates the "separation of church and
state".

We're talking about the "principles" upon which our government was
founded. You still haven't shown us any principles drawn from Christianity
that support equality under the law, democratic government, civilian
control of the military, free speech, and freedom of religion.

--
Ed Huntress

Well, there's the thing about all men being _Created_ equal. But today some
believe that all men evolved unequal from primates. So, since we are a
product of evolution, and it's important that the strongest survive and the
weakest die, which races and people are the weakest and should be destroyed?

RogerN

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

snip

Jefferson, as I said, was a Deist who admired Jesus's philosophy.

What does Jefferson say (though I'm sure he doesn't know himself as well as
modern liberals do)

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the
genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian..."
To Dr. Benjamin Rush, with a Syllabus
Washington, Apr. 21, 1803
"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a
document in proof that I am a real Christian..."

Thomas Jefferson to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816

So shall we believe Ed on Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Jefferson himself?
What about his writings against Christianity? Could it be he was referring
to the "corruptions of Christianity" that he wrote about above? If you
interpert his writing in light of his other writings, it makes sense that
either he was two people or he was for real Christianity but against
corrupted Christianity, just as all real Christians are. But I have heard
that he was one of the least religious of the founding fathers. Perhaps the
reason Jesus isn't mentioned in the Constitution is because they didn't want
to hear the leftards grumbling about it. :-)

As for Christianity and Christian principles...well, the letter to Short
lays it out pretty well. Jefferson considered himself a "true" Christian
in the sense that he believed deeply in the teachings of Jesus, although
not in his divinity or his ability to perform miracles. And he thought
that the idea that Jesus was the son of God was nonsense. He considered
Jesus to be our greatest philosopher, and all of the trappings that had
been attached to his life, which became the religion Christianity and
which fills much of the New Testament, Jefferson called "a dunghill."
Jefferson again:

--
Ed Huntress

What makes Jesus different than just another philosopher is that God
"signed" his teachings with the "signs and wonders". This is more than a
2000 year old story because these "signs and wonders" (the same miracles
that Jesus did and even greater miracles) are not to stop until we are "face
to face" with Jesus. So, why don't we see many of these "signs and wonders"
today? Jesus seemed to have a tough time finding people to "believe and not
doubt". After Jesus' disciples healed sick and cast out demons, they had
one they couldn't cast out and they brought him to Jesus, Jesus cast out the
demon. The disciples ask why they couldn't cast it out, Jesus said it was
because of their unbelief and that faith like that comes from prayer and
fasting. Notice Jesus ministry and miracles didn't start until after his 40
days of fasting and temptation, also note that Jesus often retreated into
the mountains, I'm guessing it was for prayer and fasting.

So, if someone wants to follow Jesus and be able to do the miracles that
Jesus did, they could start by giving every part of their life to Jesus.
Retreat from the world, pray and fast, seek God with all your being, read
Jesus' teachings in the gospels and do what he says. Then go, heal the
sick, raise the dead, and preach the good news! The reason we don't see
this is because doing this isn't easy.

RogerN

Roger,

Matthew 7:6

On Jun 27, 8:23*am, "RogerN" wrote:
...and it's important that the strongest survive and the
weakest die, which races and people are the weakest and should be destroyed?

RogerN

You can find as much variation among the children in one family as
between people from opposite sides of the planet.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 15:43:18 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Jun 27, 8:23*am, "RogerN" wrote:
...and it's important that the strongest survive and the
weakest die, which races and people are the weakest and should be destroyed?

RogerN

You can find as much variation among the children in one family as
between people from opposite sides of the planet.

Almost 100% true.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

snip

Jefferson, as I said, was a Deist who admired Jesus's philosophy.

What does Jefferson say (though I'm sure he doesn't know himself as well
as
modern liberals do)

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the
genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian..."
To Dr. Benjamin Rush, with a Syllabus
Washington, Apr. 21, 1803
"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a
document in proof that I am a real Christian..."

Thomas Jefferson to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816

So shall we believe Ed on Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Jefferson himself?
What about his writings against Christianity? Could it be he was
referring
to the "corruptions of Christianity" that he wrote about above? If you
interpert his writing in light of his other writings, it makes sense that
either he was two people or he was for real Christianity but against
corrupted Christianity, just as all real Christians are. But I have heard
that he was one of the least religious of the founding fathers. Perhaps
the
reason Jesus isn't mentioned in the Constitution is because they didn't
want
to hear the leftards grumbling about it. :-)

As for Christianity and Christian principles...well, the letter to Short
lays it out pretty well. Jefferson considered himself a "true" Christian
in the sense that he believed deeply in the teachings of Jesus, although
not in his divinity or his ability to perform miracles. And he thought
that the idea that Jesus was the son of God was nonsense. He considered
Jesus to be our greatest philosopher, and all of the trappings that had
been attached to his life, which became the religion Christianity and
which fills much of the New Testament, Jefferson called "a dunghill."
Jefferson again:

--
Ed Huntress

What makes Jesus different than just another philosopher is that God
"signed" his teachings with the "signs and wonders". This is more than a
2000 year old story because these "signs and wonders" (the same miracles
that Jesus did and even greater miracles) are not to stop until we are
"face
to face" with Jesus. So, why don't we see many of these "signs and
wonders"
today? Jesus seemed to have a tough time finding people to "believe and
not
doubt". After Jesus' disciples healed sick and cast out demons, they had
one they couldn't cast out and they brought him to Jesus, Jesus cast out
the
demon. The disciples ask why they couldn't cast it out, Jesus said it was
because of their unbelief and that faith like that comes from prayer and
fasting. Notice Jesus ministry and miracles didn't start until after his
40
days of fasting and temptation, also note that Jesus often retreated into
the mountains, I'm guessing it was for prayer and fasting.

So, if someone wants to follow Jesus and be able to do the miracles that
Jesus did, they could start by giving every part of their life to Jesus.
Retreat from the world, pray and fast, seek God with all your being, read
Jesus' teachings in the gospels and do what he says. Then go, heal the
sick, raise the dead, and preach the good news! The reason we don't see
this is because doing this isn't easy.


And maybe it's because nobody actually really did it. A reasonable person
would question the truthfulness and accuracy of something written a hundred
years ago. For something written thousands of years ago a reasonable person
would accept little or nothing as being completely accurate. Not you though.
Same with the Muslims. You and them think what was written thousands of
years ago is perfect. A reasonable person knows it's not. But you can't even
see how similar your behavior is to the Sunnis and Shiites. I can. Two peas
in a pod, just a different book is all that's different.

Hawke