Discussion with a Christian about the Christian doctrine of
redemption



Question:

Why do Muslims persist in denying that the Messiah came to redeem
us?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

The doctrine of redemption, and the basis of this doctrine which is
their belief that the Messiah (peace be upon him) was crucified, is
one of the basic doctrines of Christianity, so much so that they would
gamble the entire religion on this doctrine. The English cardinal
Manning says in his book "Eternal Priesthood": "The importance of this
confusing topic is obvious, for if the death of Christ on the cross is
not real, then the basis of the church's doctrine will crumble from
its foundations, because if Christ did not die on the cross, then
there is no sacrifice, no salvation, and no trinity... Paul, the
Apostles and all the churches say that, i.e., if Christ did not die
then there was no resurrection either."

This is what Paul said:

"And if Christ has not been raised, then preaching is useless and so
is your faith."

I Corinthians 15:14 - New International Version (NIV)

Just as they struggle with their belief in trinity and what it means,
and how they can reconcile it with the belief in monotheism which is
affirmed in the Old Testament (See the question: 12682), and just as
they also struggle with everything that has to do with the crucifixion
and its details, which is the basis of their belief in redemption
which they believe is the reason for the crucifixion (see also no.
12615), we say: as confusion is inevitable for everyone who turns away
from the light of revelation that came down from Allaah, similarly
they are confused about the doctrine of redemption.

Does redemption mean saving all of mankind, as John says:

"...Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but
also for the sins of the whole world"

I John 2:1-2 (NIV)?

Or is it only for those who believe and are baptized:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not
believe will be condemned"

Mark 16:16 (NIV)?

The one who studies the life and sayings of the Messiah will see
clearly that the call of the Messiah was addressed to the Children of
Israel, and that throughout his mission he forbade his disciples to
call anyone else. So salvation must have been only for them. This is
what we see in the story of the Canaanite woman who said to him:

"... 'Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering
terribly from demon-possession.'

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged
him, 'Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.'

He answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.'

The woman came and knelt before him. 'Lord, help me!' she said.

He replied, 'It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it
to their dogs.'"

Matthew 15:22-26 - NIV

The Messiah did not heal the daughter of the Canaanite woman, although
he was able to do so, so how could he redeem all of mankind?

Was this salvation from the "original sin" of Adam only, or does it
include all of our sins?

But no one can bear the sin of anyone else, or redeem him with his own
self, as Allaah tells us in His Holy Book (interpretation of the
meaning):

"And no bearer of burdens shall bear another's burden; and if one
heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be
lifted even though he be near of kin. You (O Muhammad) can warn only
those who fear their Lord unseen and perform As-Salaah
(Iqaamat-as-Salaah). And he who purifies himself (from all kinds of
sins), then he purifies only for the benefit of his ownself. And to
Allaah is the (final) Return (of all)"

[Faatir 35:18]

This is what the texts of their Bible also say:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the
guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and
the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him"

Ezekiel 18:20-21-- NIV

There is no inherited sin ("original sin"):

"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of
sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

He who hates me hates my Father as well.

If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be
guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they
have hated both me and my Father"

John 15:22-24 - NIV

When there is sin - whether a person has committed it himself or
inherited it from Adam or from another of his forefathers - can this
sin not be erased through repentance?

The people of heaven rejoice over the one who repents like the
shepherd rejoices when he finds his lost sheep, and the women rejoices
over her lost penny when she finds it, and a father rejoices over his
prodigal son when he returns:

"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in
heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous
persons who do not need to repent."

Luke 15:7

God promises those who repent that their repentance will be accepted:

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and
keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely
live; he will not die.

None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.
Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live."

Ezekiel 18:21-23 - NIV. See also Isaiah 55:7

Putting one's trust in one's lineage without repenting or doing
righteous deeds is a kind of madness; if a person's deeds slow him
down, his lineage will not help him to speed up, as our Prophet (peace
and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said. (Saheeh Muslim, 2699)

John the Baptist (Yahya - peace be upon him) taught you the same
things:

"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our
father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children
for Abraham.

The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does
not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire"

Matthew 3:7-10 - NIV

Forgiveness of sins through the sinner's repentance is what befits the
kind and merciful God - not sacrifice and crucifixion and the shedding
of blood. This is what the Bible says:

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the
righteous, but sinners (to repentance)"

Matthew 9:13 - NIV
(the words "to repentance" do not appear in the NIV but are present in
the "King James" or "Authorized" translation of the Bible).

Hence Paul says:

"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are
covered.

Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Romans 4:7-8 - NIV

We believe that if Allaah had commanded some of His slaves to kill
themselves in repentance from their sins, that would not be too much
for them to do, and that would not contradict His being kind and
merciful. He commanded the Children of Israel to do that when they
asked to see God directly, but even then no one was to be killed for
anyone else, rather a person was to be killed for his own sins, not
for the sins of another. That was the heavy burden and fetters that
were upon them (cf. al-A'raaf 7:157), from which Allaah has spared
this ummah.

Another matter that disproves the belief in original sin is the texts
which mean that each person is responsible for his own actions, as
Allaah says in His holy Book (interpretation of the meaning):

"Whosoever does righteous good deed, it is for (the benefit of) his
ownself; and whosoever does evil, it is against his ownself. And your
Lord is not at all unjust to (His) slaves"

[Fussilat 41:46]

"Every person is a pledge for what he has earned"

[al-Muddaththir 74:38]

Similarly it says in your Bible:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the
measure you use, it will be measured to you"

Matthew 7:1-2 - NIV

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his
angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has
done"

Matthew 16:27 - NIV



The Messiah affirmed the importance of righteous deeds, and said to
his disciples:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you
evildoers!'"

Matthew 7:21-22 - NIV

Similarly, he said:

"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of
his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth

Matthew 13:41-42 - NIV

He did not tell them of redemption by which they would be saved from
the reckoning.

Those who do righteous deeds are the only ones who will be saved on
the Day of Resurrection from the reckoning, whilst those who did evil
deeds will be carried off to Hell, with no salvation by the Messiah or
by anyone else:

"... for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his
voice

and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those
who have done evil will rise to be condemned

John 5:28-29 - NIV

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,
he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory...

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are
cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'"

Matthew 25:31-42 - NIV

The Messiah said to them:

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned
to hell?"

Matthew 23:33 - NIV

Adolf Hernck noted that the epistles of the Apostles did not include
the idea of salvation by redemption, rather they suggested that
salvation is attained by good deeds, as it says in the Epistle of
James:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has
no deeds? Can such faith save him?

.... faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

.... faith without deeds is useless (or dead)."

James 2:14 - NIV

And Peter says:

"I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right"

Acts 10:34-35

There are many similar examples in the words of the Messiah and the
disciples.

Allaah the Almighty has spoken the truth (interpretation of the
meaning):

"O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you
into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the
most honourable of you with Allaah is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa
[i.e. he is one of the Muttaqoon (the pious)]. Verily, Allaah is
All-Knowing, All-Aware"

[al-Hujuraat 49:13]

What is strange is that Paul himself, who abolished this teaching and
said that deeds were to no avail, and that salvation is only by faith,
affirmed the importance of righteous deeds on other occasions, such as
when he said:

"A man reaps what he sows

.... Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we
will reap a harvest if we do not give up"

Galatians 6:7 - NIV

"and each will be rewarded according to his own labour"

I Corinthians 3:8 - NIV

(For more information on this matter see: Dr Mundhir al-Saqqaar: Hal
aftadaana al-Maseeh 'ala al-Saleeb)

So you have no way of resolving this contradiction unless you ignore
your common sense and reasoning, and delude yourself with false
wishes, as you do in the case of the doctrine of trinity and unity,
which is what John R Stott advises you to do in his book Basic
Christianity: I do not dare to deal with this subject, before I admit
frankly that a great deal of it must remain a hidden mystery... I wonder
how our weak minds cannot comprehend it fully, but there will
inevitably come a day when the veil will be lifted and all mysteries
will be resolved, and we will see the Messiah as he really is!

.... How is it possible that God was incarnated in Christ, whilst making
Christ a sacrifice for our sin? I cannot answer this, but the Apostle
himself places these two truths side by side and I accept the idea
completely, just as I accept that Jesus the Nazarene is human and
divine in one person... If we cannot resolve this contradiction or solve
this mystery, we should accept the truth as proclaimed by Christ and
his disciples, that he bore our sins."

Basic Christianity, p. 110, 121, quoting from Dr Sa'ood al-Khalaf, al-
Yahoodiyyah wa'l-Nasraaniyyah, p. 238.

Yes, you and we will see the Messiah as he really is, one of the
slaves of Allaah who are close to Him, and one of His Prophets who
were sent, on that Day when the veil will be lifted and he will
disavow himself of all those who took him as a god besides Allaah, or
who attributed to him words that he did not say. At that time there
were no mysteries or puzzles:

"And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): 'O
'Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: Worship me
and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?' He will say: 'Glory be to
You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said
such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my
inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only
You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).

117. 'Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allaah) did
command me to say: Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a
witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up,
You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things.
(This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole
world).

118. 'If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive
them, verily, You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.'

119. Allaah will say: 'This is a Day on which the truthful will profit
from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in
Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allaah is pleased with
them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allaah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and
all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things

[al-Maa'idah 5:116-120]

Will you think about it before it is too late?

"Say (O Muhammad): 'O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians):
Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none
but Allaah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and
that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.' Then, if
they turn away, say: 'Bear witness that we are Muslims'"

[Aal 'Imraan 3:64].
Islam Q&A

On Feb 21, 8:53 am, "faisal1624" wrote:
Discussion with a Christian about the Christian doctrine of
redemption

Question:

Why do Muslims persist in denying that the Messiah came to redeem
us?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

The doctrine of redemption, and the basis of this doctrine which is
their belief that the Messiah (peace be upon him) was crucified, is
one of the basic doctrines of Christianity, so much so that they would
gamble the entire religion on this doctrine. The English cardinal
Manning says in his book "Eternal Priesthood": "The importance of this
confusing topic is obvious, for if the death of Christ on the cross is
not real, then the basis of the church's doctrine will crumble from
its foundations, because if Christ did not die on the cross, then
there is no sacrifice, no salvation, and no trinity... Paul, the
Apostles and all the churches say that, i.e., if Christ did not die
then there was no resurrection either."

This is what Paul said:

"And if Christ has not been raised, then preaching is useless and so
is your faith."

I Corinthians 15:14 - New International Version (NIV)

Just as they struggle with their belief in trinity and what it means,
and how they can reconcile it with the belief in monotheism which is
affirmed in the Old Testament (See the question: 12682), and just as
they also struggle with everything that has to do with the crucifixion
and its details, which is the basis of their belief in redemption
which they believe is the reason for the crucifixion (see also no.
12615), we say: as confusion is inevitable for everyone who turns away
from the light of revelation that came down from Allaah, similarly
they are confused about the doctrine of redemption.

Does redemption mean saving all of mankind, as John says:

"...Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but
also for the sins of the whole world"

I John 2:1-2 (NIV)?

Or is it only for those who believe and are baptized:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not
believe will be condemned"

Mark 16:16 (NIV)?

The one who studies the life and sayings of the Messiah will see
clearly that the call of the Messiah was addressed to the Children of
Israel, and that throughout his mission he forbade his disciples to
call anyone else. So salvation must have been only for them. This is
what we see in the story of the Canaanite woman who said to him:

"... 'Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering
terribly from demon-possession.'

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged
him, 'Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.'

He answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.'

The woman came and knelt before him. 'Lord, help me!' she said.

He replied, 'It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it
to their dogs.'"

Matthew 15:22-26 - NIV

The Messiah did not heal the daughter of the Canaanite woman, although
he was able to do so, so how could he redeem all of mankind?

Was this salvation from the "original sin" of Adam only, or does it
include all of our sins?

But no one can bear the sin of anyone else, or redeem him with his own
self, as Allaah tells us in His Holy Book (interpretation of the
meaning):

"And no bearer of burdens shall bear another's burden; and if one
heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be
lifted even though he be near of kin. You (O Muhammad) can warn only
those who fear their Lord unseen and perform As-Salaah
(Iqaamat-as-Salaah). And he who purifies himself (from all kinds of
sins), then he purifies only for the benefit of his ownself. And to
Allaah is the (final) Return (of all)"

[Faatir 35:18]

This is what the texts of their Bible also say:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the
guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and
the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him"

Ezekiel 18:20-21-- NIV

There is no inherited sin ("original sin"):

"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of
sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

He who hates me hates my Father as well.

If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be
guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they
have hated both me and my Father"

John 15:22-24 - NIV

When there is sin - whether a person has committed it himself or
inherited it from Adam or from another of his forefathers - can this
sin not be erased through repentance?

The people of heaven rejoice over the one who repents like the
shepherd rejoices when he finds his lost sheep, and the women rejoices
over her lost penny when she finds it, and a father rejoices over his
prodigal son when he returns:

"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in
heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous
persons who do not need to repent."

Luke 15:7

God promises those who repent that their repentance will be accepted:

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and
keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely
live; he will not die.

None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.
Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live."

Ezekiel 18:21-23 - NIV. See also Isaiah 55:7

Putting one's trust in one's lineage without repenting or doing
righteous deeds is a kind of madness; if a person's deeds slow him
down, his lineage will not help him to speed up, as our Prophet (peace
and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said. (Saheeh Muslim, 2699)

John the Baptist (Yahya - peace be upon him) taught you the same
things:

"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our
father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children
for Abraham.

The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does
not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire"

Matthew 3:7-10 - NIV

Forgiveness of sins through the sinner's repentance is what befits the
kind and merciful God - not sacrifice and crucifixion and the shedding
of blood. This is what the Bible says:

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the
righteous, but sinners (to repentance)"

Matthew 9:13 - NIV
(the words "to repentance" do not appear in the NIV but are present in
the "King James" or "Authorized" translation of the Bible).

Hence Paul says:

"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are
covered.

Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Romans 4:7-8 - NIV

We believe that if Allaah had commanded some of His slaves to kill
themselves in repentance from their sins, that would not be too much
for them to do, and that would not contradict His being kind and
merciful. He commanded the Children of Israel to do that when they
asked to see God directly, but even then no one was to be killed for
anyone else, rather a person was to be killed for his own sins, not
for the sins of another. That was the heavy burden and fetters that
were upon them (cf. al-A'raaf 7:157), from which Allaah has spared
this ummah.

Another matter that disproves the belief in original sin is the texts
which mean that each person is responsible for his own actions, as
Allaah says in His holy Book (interpretation of the meaning):

"Whosoever does righteous good deed, it is for (the benefit of) his
ownself; and whosoever does evil, it is against his ownself. And your
Lord is not at all unjust to (His) slaves"

[Fussilat 41:46]

"Every person is a pledge for what he has earned"

[al-Muddaththir 74:38]

Similarly it says in your Bible:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the
measure you use, it will be measured to you"

Matthew 7:1-2 - NIV

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his
angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has
done"

Matthew 16:27 - NIV

The Messiah affirmed the importance of righteous deeds, and said to
his disciples:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you
evildoers!'"

Matthew 7:21-22 - NIV

Similarly, he said:

"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of
his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth

Matthew 13:41-42 - NIV

He did not tell them of redemption by which they would be saved from
the reckoning.

Those who do righteous deeds are the only ones who will be saved on
the Day of Resurrection from the reckoning, whilst those who did evil
deeds will be carried off to Hell, with no salvation by the Messiah or
by anyone else:

"... for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his
voice

and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those
who have done evil will rise to be condemned

John 5:28-29 - NIV

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,
he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory...

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are
cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'"

Matthew 25:31-42 - NIV

The Messiah said to them:

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned
to hell?"

Matthew 23:33 - NIV

Adolf Hernck noted that the epistles of the Apostles did not include
the idea of salvation by redemption, rather they suggested that
salvation is attained by good deeds, as it says in the Epistle of
James:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has
no deeds? Can such faith save him?

... faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

... faith without deeds is useless (or dead)."

James 2:14 - NIV

And Peter says:

"I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right"

Acts 10:34-35

There are many similar examples in the words of the Messiah and the
disciples.

Allaah the Almighty has spoken the truth (interpretation of the
meaning):

"O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you
into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the
most honourable of you with Allaah is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa
[i.e. he is one of the Muttaqoon (the pious)]. Verily, Allaah is
All-Knowing, All-Aware"

[al-Hujuraat 49:13]

What is strange is that Paul himself, who abolished this teaching and
said that deeds were to no avail, and that salvation is only by faith,
affirmed the importance of righteous deeds on other occasions, such as
when he said:

"A man reaps what he sows

... Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we
will reap a harvest if we do not give up"

Galatians 6:7 - NIV

"and each will be rewarded according to his own labour"

I Corinthians 3:8 - NIV

(For more information on this matter see: Dr Mundhir al-Saqqaar: Hal
aftadaana al-Maseeh 'ala al-Saleeb)

So you have no way of resolving this contradiction unless you ignore
your common sense and reasoning, and delude yourself with false
wishes, as you do in the case of the doctrine of trinity and unity,
which is what John R Stott advises you to do in his book Basic
Christianity: I do not dare to deal with this subject, before I admit
frankly that a great deal of it must remain a hidden mystery... I wonder
how our weak minds cannot comprehend it fully, but there will
inevitably come a day when the veil will be lifted and all mysteries
will be resolved, and we will see the Messiah as he really is!

... How is it possible that God was incarnated in Christ, whilst making
Christ a sacrifice for our sin? I cannot answer this, but the Apostle
himself places these two truths side by side and I accept the idea
completely, just as I accept that Jesus the Nazarene is human and
divine in one person... If we cannot resolve this contradiction or solve
this mystery, we should accept the truth as proclaimed by Christ and
his disciples, that he bore our sins."

Basic Christianity, p. 110, 121, quoting from Dr Sa'ood al-Khalaf, al-
Yahoodiyyah wa'l-Nasraaniyyah, p. 238.

Yes, you and we will see the Messiah as he really is, one of the
slaves of Allaah who are close to Him, and one of His Prophets who
were sent, on that Day when the veil will be lifted and he will
disavow himself of all those who took him as a god besides Allaah, or
who attributed to him words that he did not say. At that time there
were no mysteries or puzzles:

"And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): 'O
'Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: Worship me
and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?' He will say: 'Glory be to
You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said
such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my
inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only
You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).

117. 'Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allaah) did
command me to say: Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a
witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up,
You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things.
(This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole
world).

118. 'If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive
them, verily, You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.'

119. Allaah will say: 'This is a Day on which the truthful will profit
from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in
Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allaah is pleased with
them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allaah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and
all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things

[al-Maa'idah 5:116-120]

Will you think about it before it is too late?

"Say (O Muhammad): 'O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians):
Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none
but Allaah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and
that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.' Then, if
they turn away, say: 'Bear witness that we are Muslims'"

[Aal 'Imraan 3:64].
Islam Q&A


And this is causing what kind of problem in your house that needs
repaired?

faisal1624 wrote:
Discussion with a Christian about the Christian doctrine of
redemption


Wrong place for this, try a religious NG.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

On 21 Feb 2007 05:57:49 -0800, wrote:


Islam Q&A


And this is causing what kind of problem in your house that needs
repaired?

Greg, please. This is the third OT post in one morning, 3rd time in 6
threads, where you repost the entire 250 lines or more just to be
sarcastic. It's a waste to reply at all, but if you don't respect the
post, why do you repost the whole thing? Don't you know where the
delete key is?

"mm" wrote in message
...
On 21 Feb 2007 05:57:49 -0800, wrote:


Islam Q&A


And this is causing what kind of problem in your house that needs
repaired?

Greg, please. This is the third OT post in one morning, 3rd time in 6
threads, where you repost the entire 250 lines or more just to be
sarcastic. It's a waste to reply at all, but if you don't respect the
post, why do you repost the whole thing? Don't you know where the
delete key is?

You could set up a rule to delete any posts over 50 or so lines. I find most
posts over 50 lines are unnecessary reposts,trolls or spam.

On Feb 21, 10:27 am, mm wrote:
On 21 Feb 2007 05:57:49 -0800, wrote:



Islam Q&A

And this is causing what kind of problem in your house that needs
repaired?

Greg, please. This is the third OT post in one morning, 3rd time in 6
threads, where you repost the entire 250 lines or more just to be
sarcastic. It's a waste to reply at all, but if you don't respect the
post, why do you repost the whole thing? Don't you know where the
delete key is?


Don't blame him. That's what Google makes me do.
Praise be to whatever
Frank

On Feb 21, 12:05 pm, "Frank" wrote:
On Feb 21, 10:27 am, mm wrote:

On 21 Feb 2007 05:57:49 -0800, wrote:

....
...why do you repost the whole thing? Don't you know where the
delete key is?

Don't blame him. That's what Google makes me do.
....

As bad as google groups is (and I've been using it waiting for my ISP
to eventually get the newsserver back ), you _can_ edit the text
(although it appears it requires selecting and cutting afaict)...

On 21 Feb 2007 05:57:49 -0800, wrote:

On Feb 21, 8:53 am, "faisal1624" wrote:
Discussion with a Christian about the Christian doctrine of
redemption

Question:

Why do Muslims persist in denying that the Messiah came to redeem

[snip garbage]

they turn away, say: 'Bear witness that we are Muslims'"

[Aal 'Imraan 3:64].
Islam Q&A


And this is causing what kind of problem in your house that needs
repaired?


The contractor who came to fix the leaky gas pipes can't stand all the
constant bull**** :-)