Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself a
Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?" on the
floor of the US House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o

--

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself a
Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?"
on the floor of the US House.

And the Q is, or should be, irrelevant. If there were total separation of
church and state, as there should be.

The real Q is, When did America become an effing irrational nation, with
media and "entertainment" that could scramble the brain of a dead person?

--

Mr. PV'd

Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
Hey, Big Boy, is that a wad (of cash) in yer pocket, or are you just
glad to see me??







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o

--

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself a
Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?"
on the floor of the US House.

And the Q is, or should be, irrelevant. If there were total separation of
church and state, as there should be.

The real Q is, When did America become an effing irrational nation, with
media and "entertainment" that could scramble the brain of a dead person?


I think that was about 1973...

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself
a Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?"
on the floor of the US House.

And the Q is, or should be, irrelevant. If there were total separation
of church and state, as there should be.

The real Q is, When did America become an effing irrational nation, with
media and "entertainment" that could scramble the brain of a dead person?


I think that was about 1973...

Naah, I think it was Woodstock.

CorPirate Merka took one look at these luded-out half-necked assholes
dancing in the mud, and correctly concluded that the establishment/status
quo had nary a thing to worry about, ever.

CorPirate Merka realized that since the Flower Generation was already
mind****ing itself, it would be cake to for CorPirate Merka to mind**** sed
generation more completely later on.

And that was without any hint of the internet.

--

Mr. PV'd

Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
Hey, Big Boy, is that a wad (of cash) in yer pocket, or are you just
glad to see me??

On Jun 18, 9:45*pm, cavelamb wrote:
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
"cavelamb" wrote in message
Congressman Forbes asks ...

The real Q is, When did America become an effing irrational nation, with
media and "entertainment" that could scramble the brain of a dead person?

I think that was about 1973...

In the 50's Playhouse 90 and Hallmark Hall of Fame presented some
excellent, literate material but few watched. By the early 60's the
most intellectually challenging program was Rocky and Bullwinkle.

jsw

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:

The real Q is, When did America become an effing irrational nation, with
media and "entertainment" that could scramble the brain of a dead person?


The year, month and day you were born?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:
The real Q is, When did America become an effing irrational nation, with
media and "entertainment" that could scramble the brain of a dead person?


The year, month and day you were born?


WAY long before that...

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself
a
Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?"
on the floor of the US House.

And the Q is, or should be, irrelevant. If there were total separation of
church and state, as there should be.

The real Q is, When did America become an effing irrational nation, with
media and "entertainment" that could scramble the brain of a dead person?


It started in the early 80s, when Reagan was elected and conservatives
started running the country. Except for a few years under Clinton the
country has been on a downhill slide ever since. Our downward spiral
coincides with the republican ascendancy and the domination by business
interests over everything else.

Hawke

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself a
Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?"
on the floor of the US House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o

--

Roughly half of what he said is historically incorrect.

The USA was founded on Enlightenment principles, not "Judeo-Christian"
principles. At the time of the Declaration's signing, there was no principle
of individual rights in Christianity. There was only obligation and
obedience. The individual got his just due and his individual recognition in
the afterlife. On Earth, he was a servant.

The Enlightenment, although its thinkers often couched their words in
religious terms (in Locke's case, to avoid threatened prosecution; in
Jefferson's case, for the sake of politics), was a contradiction of
religious doctrine and was based on the individual dignity of man. No such
concept was present in Christianity at the time the country was founded.

The truth is more the reverse, that religion adopted Enlightenment
principles, starting late in the 18th century. In the US, Enlightenment
principles were tossed into the blender with a revolutionary Christianity
that rejected the whole church structure in favor of a new idea of man's
role in the universe, which was mostly the same idea as that of Locke, Hume,
and the other primary thinkers of the English Enlightenment.

One curiosity is the use of the term "Creator" rather than "God" in the
Declaration of Independence. That fits well with the fact that roughly half
of the Founders were not really Christians at all, but Deists. Thus,
Jefferson "edited" the Bible to suit his beliefs by taking out all
references to Jesus's divinity, to the virgin birth, and to miracles. His
edited Bible was widely applauded at the time. To Jefferson, a Deist with a
Unitarian bent, the mysteries of Christianity were nothing but superstition:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme
being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable
of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that
the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do
away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive
and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human
errors." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

To Jefferson, Christianity was a set of ideals larded with absurd
superstitions. He admired Jesus but thought that Christians were absurd.
Likewise to many of the Deists of the time; the intellectuals of
late-Enlightenment Europe and America. And they were the ones who
incorporated the Enlightenment principles -- founded on an abstract idea of
"nature" and "natural rights," most definitely NOT Christian principles
until Christianity adopted them in the decades to follow -- into our
Constitution, our Declaration of Independence, and our Bill of Rights.

God was thrown in occasionally to keep the lid on. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:55:33 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself a
Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?"
on the floor of the US House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o

--

Roughly half of what he said is historically incorrect.

The USA was founded on Enlightenment principles, not "Judeo-Christian"
principles. At the time of the Declaration's signing, there was no principle
of individual rights in Christianity. There was only obligation and
obedience. The individual got his just due and his individual recognition in
the afterlife. On Earth, he was a servant.

The Enlightenment, although its thinkers often couched their words in
religious terms (in Locke's case, to avoid threatened prosecution; in
Jefferson's case, for the sake of politics), was a contradiction of
religious doctrine and was based on the individual dignity of man. No such
concept was present in Christianity at the time the country was founded.

The truth is more the reverse, that religion adopted Enlightenment
principles, starting late in the 18th century. In the US, Enlightenment
principles were tossed into the blender with a revolutionary Christianity
that rejected the whole church structure in favor of a new idea of man's
role in the universe, which was mostly the same idea as that of Locke, Hume,
and the other primary thinkers of the English Enlightenment.

One curiosity is the use of the term "Creator" rather than "God" in the
Declaration of Independence. That fits well with the fact that roughly half
of the Founders were not really Christians at all, but Deists. Thus,
Jefferson "edited" the Bible to suit his beliefs by taking out all
references to Jesus's divinity, to the virgin birth, and to miracles. His
edited Bible was widely applauded at the time. To Jefferson, a Deist with a
Unitarian bent, the mysteries of Christianity were nothing but superstition:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme
being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable
of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that
the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do
away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive
and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human
errors." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

To Jefferson, Christianity was a set of ideals larded with absurd
superstitions. He admired Jesus but thought that Christians were absurd.
Likewise to many of the Deists of the time; the intellectuals of
late-Enlightenment Europe and America. And they were the ones who
incorporated the Enlightenment principles -- founded on an abstract idea of
"nature" and "natural rights," most definitely NOT Christian principles
until Christianity adopted them in the decades to follow -- into our
Constitution, our Declaration of Independence, and our Bill of Rights.

God was thrown in occasionally to keep the lid on. g

Ed I think you've missed the boat there.
werent the founding fathers of america more attuned to freemason
principles than religious principles. (they're not the same)
have a look at the eye in the pyramid on your currency and many of the
other unexplained symbols. that's freemasonry.
Stealth Pilot

On Jun 19, 6:42*am, Stealth Pilot
wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:55:33 -0400, "Ed Huntress"


Ed I think you've missed the boat there.
werent the founding fathers of america more attuned to freemason
principles than religious principles. (they're not the same)
have a look at the eye in the pyramid on your currency and many of the
other unexplained symbols. that's freemasonry.
Stealth Pilot-

Sort of. FDR was a 32nd degree Mason yet he didn't recognize the
significance of the reverse of our Great Seal until Wallace explained
it to him.
Annuit coeptis: He favors / gives the nod to / [our] undertaking.
The all-seeing eye of God.
The unfinished 13-step pyramid is a solid beginning with more to come.
Novus ordo seclorum: literally a New Order of the Ages, fig. the new
form of US government.

jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Jun 19, 6:42 am, Stealth Pilot
wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:55:33 -0400, "Ed Huntress"


Ed I think you've missed the boat there.
werent the founding fathers of america more attuned to freemason
principles than religious principles. (they're not the same)
have a look at the eye in the pyramid on your currency and many of the
other unexplained symbols. that's freemasonry.
Stealth Pilot-

For some reason that post doesn't appear on my newsreader, so I don't know
the full context.

But my response is, no. Those principles were more a matter of individual
morality and relationships. There was no discussion of religion or politics
allowed in the lodges -- I think that's still true. The only religious
requirement is belief in a supreme being, the interpretation of which is
left up to the member. Thus, there are Seikh Masons, and Hindu Masons.
Deism, too, fits right into the requirement.

Aside from principles that are common to many sets of moral and religious
beliefs, there isn't much of a doctrine in freemasonry that could be called
a set of principles for organizing a society. That's the province of
religions and broad philosophical schools of thought, such as those of the
Enlightenment.

--
Ed Huntress

On Jun 19, 7:46*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

For some reason that post doesn't appear on my newsreader, so I don't know
the full context.

Rad it on Google Groups

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...e674c11810799a

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself a
Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?"
on the floor of the US House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o

--

Roughly half of what he said is historically incorrect.

The USA was founded on Enlightenment principles, not "Judeo-Christian"
principles. At the time of the Declaration's signing, there was no
principle of individual rights in Christianity. There was only obligation
and obedience. The individual got his just due and his individual
recognition in the afterlife. On Earth, he was a servant.

The Enlightenment, although its thinkers often couched their words in
religious terms (in Locke's case, to avoid threatened prosecution; in
Jefferson's case, for the sake of politics), was a contradiction of
religious doctrine and was based on the individual dignity of man. No such
concept was present in Christianity at the time the country was founded.

The truth is more the reverse, that religion adopted Enlightenment
principles, starting late in the 18th century. In the US, Enlightenment
principles were tossed into the blender with a revolutionary Christianity
that rejected the whole church structure in favor of a new idea of man's
role in the universe, which was mostly the same idea as that of Locke,
Hume, and the other primary thinkers of the English Enlightenment.

One curiosity is the use of the term "Creator" rather than "God" in the
Declaration of Independence. That fits well with the fact that roughly
half of the Founders were not really Christians at all, but Deists. Thus,
Jefferson "edited" the Bible to suit his beliefs by taking out all
references to Jesus's divinity, to the virgin birth, and to miracles. His
edited Bible was widely applauded at the time. To Jefferson, a Deist with
a Unitarian bent, the mysteries of Christianity were nothing but
superstition:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with
the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may
hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States
will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the
primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of
human errors." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

To Jefferson, Christianity was a set of ideals larded with absurd
superstitions. He admired Jesus but thought that Christians were absurd.
Likewise to many of the Deists of the time; the intellectuals of
late-Enlightenment Europe and America. And they were the ones who
incorporated the Enlightenment principles -- founded on an abstract idea
of "nature" and "natural rights," most definitely NOT Christian principles
until Christianity adopted them in the decades to follow -- into our
Constitution, our Declaration of Independence, and our Bill of Rights.

God was thrown in occasionally to keep the lid on. g

--
Ed Huntress

Jefferson, the man that wrote "separation of church and state" attended
church in Congress the following Sunday. He also gave government money to
missionaries. You're liberal mis-education isn't serving you well. There's
a book out about liberal lies you probably learned in school, may help.

Quotes of the founding fathers, I'll bet they didn't teach these in liberal
schools.

The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the
Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty
God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of
Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable
Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make
yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to
serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our
Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.

William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the
group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous
courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of
the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the
Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian
faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony
in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and
mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine
our selves together…”
__________________________________________________ ____________________

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were
the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now
believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and
immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn
acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was
approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human
passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or
gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale
goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious
people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October
11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened
means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is
the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the
libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in
polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19,
1817] |


Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness
obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American
Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in
Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their
endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the
importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the
minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study
and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4,
1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your
most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of
July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the
nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms
a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that
the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the
foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the
cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at
Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal
as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and
judge of the tree by its fruits.”

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of
Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they
therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so
sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best
security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on
November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the
ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without
His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord
build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I
also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this
political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional
Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of
danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our
prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine
we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June
28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in
Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the
Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was
dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the
Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian
Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which
Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of
the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on
the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am
a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which
without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon
by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional
Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I
was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my
verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition
ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians,
to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the
impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from
the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of
Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but
foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before
God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have
deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a
spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the
American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire
to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may
have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace
of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration
of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from
labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of
Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was
founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the
gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have
been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765
Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is
the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to
select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816.
The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed.,
(New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a
question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally
received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the
prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou
help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2]
affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John
Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons,
1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my
observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of
Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be
thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in
the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they
are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country
when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
(excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the
nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings,
(New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p.
289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be
elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who
are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian
religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high
office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian
religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place,
the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30,
1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with
all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the
power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our
political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to
the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of
Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor
of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and
manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments
and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the
unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates
in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this
way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided
the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of
the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved
February 2, 1813 by Congress

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and
charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal
monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in
the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to
make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to
divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model
of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the
power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive
power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the
power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the
judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the
judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same …
body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed
Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History:
The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy
Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the
punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of
divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone
secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and
constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain,
without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our
institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot
pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil
freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . .
Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present
republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must
fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he
preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time
of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this
was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full
view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that
beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental
army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for
recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia
Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General,
having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of
Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other
sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only;
whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being
who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine
origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only
discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching
natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in
the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of
creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge
they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied
ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter,
and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The
Existence of God--1810”

Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and
take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of
establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is,
the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by
means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the
soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures]
from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral
sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the
Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the
Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write
and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and
obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of
education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free
Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society.
One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that
Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period
in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its
foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of
credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to
it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not
the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive
encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the
private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments,
consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe
immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the
first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be
instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian
religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights
and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English
Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers
just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the
citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the
government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure
public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the
Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah
Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck,
1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition,
injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or
neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p.
339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian
Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your
national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than
any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of
difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and
experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in
exclusion of religious principle..."


“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of
Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory
to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at
Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the
Constitution but added several religious components to that official
ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to
take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath,
then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow
himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his
patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not
Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I
acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of
the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of
my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and
they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I
have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting
what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled
against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows
and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are
multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame
and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as
I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful
to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only
Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to
repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book
dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon
Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official
duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by
a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the
beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not
have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such
unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and
reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797
letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in
Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

__________________________________________________ ______________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof”
[Leviticus 25:10]

Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” –Ben Franklin

• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a
pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and
John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of
America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of
the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the
Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He
then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee
to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in
the Red Sea

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan
to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this
model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and
subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His
only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do
acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by
divine inspiration."

New York Spectator. August 23, 1831
“ The court of common pleas of Chester county, [New York] rejected a witness
who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge
remarked that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who
did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the
sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no
cause in a Christian country where a witness had been permitted to testify
without such belief.

New England Primer:
Used in public and private schools from 1690 to 1900 second only to the
Bible
Some of its contents:
A song of praise to God
Prayers in Jesus’ name
The famous Bible alphabet
Shorter Catechism of faith in Christ

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself
a Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?"
on the floor of the US House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o

--

Roughly half of what he said is historically incorrect.

The USA was founded on Enlightenment principles, not "Judeo-Christian"
principles. At the time of the Declaration's signing, there was no
principle of individual rights in Christianity. There was only obligation
and obedience. The individual got his just due and his individual
recognition in the afterlife. On Earth, he was a servant.

The Enlightenment, although its thinkers often couched their words in
religious terms (in Locke's case, to avoid threatened prosecution; in
Jefferson's case, for the sake of politics), was a contradiction of
religious doctrine and was based on the individual dignity of man. No
such concept was present in Christianity at the time the country was
founded.

The truth is more the reverse, that religion adopted Enlightenment
principles, starting late in the 18th century. In the US, Enlightenment
principles were tossed into the blender with a revolutionary Christianity
that rejected the whole church structure in favor of a new idea of man's
role in the universe, which was mostly the same idea as that of Locke,
Hume, and the other primary thinkers of the English Enlightenment.

One curiosity is the use of the term "Creator" rather than "God" in the
Declaration of Independence. That fits well with the fact that roughly
half of the Founders were not really Christians at all, but Deists. Thus,
Jefferson "edited" the Bible to suit his beliefs by taking out all
references to Jesus's divinity, to the virgin birth, and to miracles. His
edited Bible was widely applauded at the time. To Jefferson, a Deist with
a Unitarian bent, the mysteries of Christianity were nothing but
superstition:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with
the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we
may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United
States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to
us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated
reformer of human errors." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams,
April 11, 1823

To Jefferson, Christianity was a set of ideals larded with absurd
superstitions. He admired Jesus but thought that Christians were absurd.
Likewise to many of the Deists of the time; the intellectuals of
late-Enlightenment Europe and America. And they were the ones who
incorporated the Enlightenment principles -- founded on an abstract idea
of "nature" and "natural rights," most definitely NOT Christian
principles until Christianity adopted them in the decades to follow --
into our Constitution, our Declaration of Independence, and our Bill of
Rights.

God was thrown in occasionally to keep the lid on. g

--
Ed Huntress

Jefferson, the man that wrote "separation of church and state" attended
church in Congress the following Sunday. He also gave government money to
missionaries. You're liberal mis-education isn't serving you well.
There's a book out about liberal lies you probably learned in school, may
help.

Quotes of the founding fathers, I'll bet they didn't teach these in
liberal schools.

snip

The difference between my schools and yours, Roger, is the parts they
snipped out in yours. Much of what you quote, if you read the full context,
referred not to Christian religion but (in Jefferson's case, for example) to
Jesus's philosophy. As I said, half of them were Deists -- including
Jefferson.

Here are some of the things they apparently snipped out of the history they
taught you in Sunday school. You'll note that these mostly come from private
correspondence. As politicians, they were politically more diplomatic in
their public speeches. Then, as now, expressing disbelief in Christian
principles could really rile up some segments of society:

===============================================

Regarding what the Founders thought, Adams as President signed a treaty with
Tripoli in 1797, which had been written when Washington was President and
Adams presided over the Senate, which says: "The government of the United
States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Jefferson, in a letter to William Short:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt,
tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion?
To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support
roguery and error all over the earth."

(Gee, I guess *he* didn't write his parts based on Christian principles, eh?
g)

Jefferson, as I said, was a Deist who admired Jesus's philosophy. As for
Christianity and Christian principles...well, the letter to Short lays it
out pretty well. Jefferson considered himself a "true" Christian in the
sense that he believed deeply in the teachings of Jesus, although not in his
divinity or his ability to perform miracles. And he thought that the idea
that Jesus was the son of God was nonsense. He considered Jesus to be our
greatest philosopher, and all of the trappings that had been attached to his
life, which became the religion Christianity and which fills much of the New
Testament, Jefferson called "a dunghill." Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on
man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the
first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

That wouldn't stop him from attending church, however. He loved the parts
about Jesus's actual life. And the church was the major social gathering
place. He just had very low regard for the religion itself.

How about James Madison? He authored most of the Constitution, more than a
third of the Federalist Papers, and almost all of the Bill of Rights. He's a
good example of using caution in public statement. In his "A Memorial and
Remonstrance", written in 1785, he mostly attacks the clergy. Blame it all
on the leaders. g But in private, in a letter to William Bradford in 1774,
he didn't pull punches: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind
and unfits it for every noble enterprise," he said.

In an 1803 letter objecting to the use of government land for churches,
Madison wrote: "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep
forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of
Europe in blood for centuries."

Madison, like Jefferson, had a very low regard for the Christian religions.
Washington hardly mentioned them, and never mentioned Jesus, or hardly ever
Christianity, in his writings. According to his biographers, he was a
hard-nosed Deist.

Franklin? Maybe this made it through your Sunday school education filter, or
maybe not:

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that
they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them;
for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared
to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough
Deist."

He grew quite adamant about it in later years: "In the affairs of the world,
men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

"The affairs of men" was what they were dealing with in constructing our
form of government, and they went to great pains to keep it separate from
religion. All in all, Roger, your quotes paint a very misleading picture,
partly because they don't acknowledge the many contrary writings of the
Founders, and partly because they give the impression that the "God" they
talk about is always the personal God of Christianity. More often it is the
Creator, the God as Deism sees it. And the God of Deism is a very impersonal
God.

Maybe they filtered out Deism in Sunday school, too. Or perhaps they lumped
it with witchcraft and Satanism. If so, you can fill out some of the
truncated fable you've been fed by looking into it. Wikipedia does a pretty
good job of it, in a sort of Reader's Digest version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Maybe, like Franklin, it will convert you, too. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

"RogerN" wrote in message

You're liberal mis-education isn't serving you well.
LOL

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself
a Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to
be?" on the floor of the US House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o

--



Here's some other info on Thomas Jefferson you didn't mention. I realize he
wasn't a real Christian, but he certainly did much that would upset the ACLU
based on "separation of church and state".
a.. "Thomas Jefferson was raised in an Anglican family.
b.. He went to a Christian school and was taught by Christian pastors.

c.. Jefferson attended church regularly his whole life.
d.. As an adult he served on the Vestry of the Anglican church.
e.. He attended the Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist churches.
f.. Jefferson regularly tithed to the church.
g.. While Washington & Adams ended their Presidential Papers with "In the
Year of our Lord", Jefferson ended his Presidential Papers with "In the year
of our Lord Christ 18__".
h.. As President he attended the largest church in the nation which held
their services in the House Chambers of the Capitol Building in Washington
D.C.
i.. Jefferson was not pleased with the music, so he ordered the Marine
Band to come to church on Sundays.
Some of Jefferson's actions as president.

a.. Promoted legislative and military chaplains.
b.. Established a national seal using a biblical symbol.
c.. Included the word "God" in our national motto.
d.. Established official days of fasting and prayer at the state level.
e.. Punished Sabbath breakers.
f.. Punished marriages contrary to biblical law.
g.. Punished irreverent soldiers.
h.. Protected the property of churches.
i.. Required that oaths be phrased by the words "So help me God" and be
sworn on the Bible.
j.. Granted land to Christian schools.
k.. Allowed government property and facilities to be used for worship.
l.. Used the Bible and nondenominational religious instruction in the
public schools. He was involved in three different school districts, and the
plan in each required that the Bible be taught in our public schools.
m.. Allowed and encouraged clergymen to hold public office.
n.. Funded religious books for public libraries.
o.. Funded salaries for missionaries.
p.. Exempted churches from taxation.
q.. Established professional schools of theology.
r.. Wrote treaties requiring other nations to guarantee religious freedom,
including religious speeches and prayer in official ceremonies.
You will notice that in many cases Federal Treasury money was used to
support churches.

Engraved on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in Washington D.C. are the
words of our third President: "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the
liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these
liberties are the gift of God?"

Jefferson wrote this warning on September 6, 1819: "The Constitution . . .
is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist
and shape into any form they please."

It is very evident from the record that Thomas Jefferson believed in God and
felt that religion should play an important role in the government, and that
government could and should support churches. Would Jefferson who added the
word "God" to the National Motto, agree with the 9th Circuit Court, who
stated that the word "God" in the Pledge of Alegance is Unconstitutional?
The War that the Supreme Court has launched on people of faith, Jefferson
would be totally against."

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider
itself a Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to
be?" on the floor of the US House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o

--



Here's some other info on Thomas Jefferson you didn't mention.

No, this isn't "info." It's mostly "misinfo," taken out of context, clipped
to give incorrect impressions, and undocumented. It's doubtful that you have
any idea where it came from or which parts are true and untrue, because you
don't check your sources. If the advocates cram it down your throat, you
just swallow it whole.

This would be very tedious to track down all of it, but I'll give a few
examples, documented from legitimate sources:

I realize he wasn't a real Christian, but he certainly did much that would
upset the ACLU based on "separation of church and state".

snip

Some of Jefferson's actions as president.

a.. Promoted legislative and military chaplains.
b.. Established a national seal using a biblical symbol.

Show us where in the Bible the "all-seeing eye" is used. It's an Egyptian
symbol, adopted by the Freemasons and associated with the Deistic creator.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible.

c.. Included the word "God" in our national motto.

The de facto national motto, established in the 1780s, was "E Pluribus
Unum." ("From many, one.") "In God We Trust" was established as the national
motto in 1956.

More crap from your unreliable sources, Roger.

d.. Established official days of fasting and prayer at the state level.

[Jefferson] "refused to appoint days of fasting or thanksgiving, on the
ground that to do so would be indirectly to assume an authority over
religious exercises, which the Constitution had expressly forbidden." [_Life
of Thomas Jefferson_, James Parton, Osgood, 1874]

Still more crap.

e.. Punished Sabbath breakers.

Read the law, co-authored by Madison. You'll be surprised at what it was
about.

f.. Punished marriages contrary to biblical law.

"A Bill Annulling Marriages Prohibited by the Levitical Law...". Leviticus
18. You can't marry your mother, your sister, your brother's sister, your
dead wife's sister, or animals, clean or unclean. It could have been written
by the CDC. g

g.. Punished irreverent soldiers.
h.. Protected the property of churches.
i.. Required that oaths be phrased by the words "So help me God" and be
sworn on the Bible.

Nope. You're referring to the Judiciary Act of 1789, which contains the
words "Which words, so help me God, shall be omitted in all cases where an
affirmation is admitted instead of an oath." It neither required a Bible,
nor required that it be sworn. A non-believer could simply "affirm."

That's what religious freedom does for you.

I think you can see the pattern, Roger. Jefferson was a Deist who believed
in religious freedom. So were most of the Founders. Several of them openly
disparaged the Christianity of the day, including its "principles." I've
quoted some words about it for you, from Jefferson, Franklin, and Madison.
I've been merciful in leaving out the words of Thomas Paine. g And they
said in several instances that our Constitution is not based on them.

Jefferson also said that the common law had no relation to Christianity. You
probably haven't looked, but you can spend a lot of time trying to connect
biblical Christian "principles" to the idea that men are equal before the
law (each age and type of man, and woman, was worth a different number of
shekels, as explained in Leviticus); you won't find free speech or freedom
of religion in there; you'll look long and hard to find the idea that men
are endowed with an inalienable right to pursue happiness.

It just isn't there. But you'll have no trouble at all finding those ideas
in the writings of the Enlightenment philosophers.

As I said, the whole process really was reversed from what the Christian
apologists would have you believe. The Enlightenment was essentially a
Deistic system, in which a Creator set the clockwork running, established
"natural laws" (which are antithetical to much of Christian belief), and
then got out of the way, leaving it up to men to decide their own individual
fate. After they die, they get a new lease with much more favorable terms.
g

Don't swallow that crap they're feeding you. There is an entire historical
society at the Univ. of Virginia and Monticello that has documented
Jefferson's writings. Go for the originals, not the interpretations by those
people that Jefferson most despised -- the ministers of the church.

--
Ed Huntress

Roughly half of what he said is historically incorrect.

The USA was founded on Enlightenment principles, not "Judeo-Christian"
principles. At the time of the Declaration's signing, there was no
principle of individual rights in Christianity. There was only
obligation
and obedience. The individual got his just due and his individual
recognition in the afterlife. On Earth, he was a servant.

The Enlightenment, although its thinkers often couched their words in
religious terms (in Locke's case, to avoid threatened prosecution; in
Jefferson's case, for the sake of politics), was a contradiction of
religious doctrine and was based on the individual dignity of man. No
such concept was present in Christianity at the time the country was
founded.

The truth is more the reverse, that religion adopted Enlightenment
principles, starting late in the 18th century. In the US, Enlightenment
principles were tossed into the blender with a revolutionary
Christianity
that rejected the whole church structure in favor of a new idea of
man's
role in the universe, which was mostly the same idea as that of Locke,
Hume, and the other primary thinkers of the English Enlightenment.

One curiosity is the use of the term "Creator" rather than "God" in the
Declaration of Independence. That fits well with the fact that roughly
half of the Founders were not really Christians at all, but Deists.
Thus,
Jefferson "edited" the Bible to suit his beliefs by taking out all
references to Jesus's divinity, to the virgin birth, and to miracles.
His
edited Bible was widely applauded at the time. To Jefferson, a Deist
with
a Unitarian bent, the mysteries of Christianity were nothing but
superstition:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed
with
the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we
may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United
States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore
to
us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated
reformer of human errors." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams,
April 11, 1823

To Jefferson, Christianity was a set of ideals larded with absurd
superstitions. He admired Jesus but thought that Christians were
absurd.
Likewise to many of the Deists of the time; the intellectuals of
late-Enlightenment Europe and America. And they were the ones who
incorporated the Enlightenment principles -- founded on an abstract
idea
of "nature" and "natural rights," most definitely NOT Christian
principles until Christianity adopted them in the decades to follow --
into our Constitution, our Declaration of Independence, and our Bill of
Rights.

God was thrown in occasionally to keep the lid on. g

--
Ed Huntress

Jefferson, the man that wrote "separation of church and state" attended
church in Congress the following Sunday. He also gave government money
to
missionaries. You're liberal mis-education isn't serving you well.
There's a book out about liberal lies you probably learned in school,
may
help.

Quotes of the founding fathers, I'll bet they didn't teach these in
liberal schools.

snip

The difference between my schools and yours, Roger, is the parts they
snipped out in yours. Much of what you quote, if you read the full
context,
referred not to Christian religion but (in Jefferson's case, for example)
to
Jesus's philosophy. As I said, half of them were Deists -- including
Jefferson.

Here are some of the things they apparently snipped out of the history
they
taught you in Sunday school. You'll note that these mostly come from
private
correspondence. As politicians, they were politically more diplomatic in
their public speeches. Then, as now, expressing disbelief in Christian
principles could really rile up some segments of society:

===============================================

Regarding what the Founders thought, Adams as President signed a treaty
with
Tripoli in 1797, which had been written when Washington was President and
Adams presided over the Senate, which says: "The government of the United
States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Jefferson, in a letter to William Short:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not
find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt,
tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion?
To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support
roguery and error all over the earth."

(Gee, I guess *he* didn't write his parts based on Christian principles,
eh?
g)

Jefferson, as I said, was a Deist who admired Jesus's philosophy. As for
Christianity and Christian principles...well, the letter to Short lays it
out pretty well. Jefferson considered himself a "true" Christian in the
sense that he believed deeply in the teachings of Jesus, although not in
his
divinity or his ability to perform miracles. And he thought that the idea
that Jesus was the son of God was nonsense. He considered Jesus to be our
greatest philosopher, and all of the trappings that had been attached to
his
life, which became the religion Christianity and which fills much of the
New
Testament, Jefferson called "a dunghill." Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on
man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the
first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

That wouldn't stop him from attending church, however. He loved the parts
about Jesus's actual life. And the church was the major social gathering
place. He just had very low regard for the religion itself.

How about James Madison? He authored most of the Constitution, more than a
third of the Federalist Papers, and almost all of the Bill of Rights. He's
a
good example of using caution in public statement. In his "A Memorial and
Remonstrance", written in 1785, he mostly attacks the clergy. Blame it all
on the leaders. g But in private, in a letter to William Bradford in
1774,
he didn't pull punches: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the
mind
and unfits it for every noble enterprise," he said.

In an 1803 letter objecting to the use of government land for churches,
Madison wrote: "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep
forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of
Europe in blood for centuries."

Madison, like Jefferson, had a very low regard for the Christian
religions.
Washington hardly mentioned them, and never mentioned Jesus, or hardly
ever
Christianity, in his writings. According to his biographers, he was a
hard-nosed Deist.

Franklin? Maybe this made it through your Sunday school education filter,
or
maybe not:

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that
they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them;
for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared
to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a
thorough
Deist."

He grew quite adamant about it in later years: "In the affairs of the
world,
men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

"The affairs of men" was what they were dealing with in constructing our
form of government, and they went to great pains to keep it separate from
religion. All in all, Roger, your quotes paint a very misleading picture,
partly because they don't acknowledge the many contrary writings of the
Founders, and partly because they give the impression that the "God" they
talk about is always the personal God of Christianity. More often it is
the
Creator, the God as Deism sees it. And the God of Deism is a very
impersonal
God.

Maybe they filtered out Deism in Sunday school, too. Or perhaps they
lumped
it with witchcraft and Satanism. If so, you can fill out some of the
truncated fable you've been fed by looking into it. Wikipedia does a
pretty
good job of it, in a sort of Reader's Digest version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Maybe, like Franklin, it will convert you, too. d8-)


See, even back then the smart people knew how stupid the devout Christians
were. The only difference between then and now is that deep down most
people, especially smart people, understand how stupid it is to believe in
religion (superstition). You can't help but wonder how many hypocrites are
pretending to believe in the Bible just to get ahead or along.

Hawke

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

snip

Jefferson, as I said, was a Deist who admired Jesus's philosophy.

What does Jefferson say (though I'm sure he doesn't know himself as well as
modern liberals do)

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the
genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian..."
To Dr. Benjamin Rush, with a Syllabus
Washington, Apr. 21, 1803
"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a
document in proof that I am a real Christian..."

Thomas Jefferson to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816

So shall we believe Ed on Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Jefferson himself?
What about his writings against Christianity? Could it be he was referring
to the "corruptions of Christianity" that he wrote about above? If you
interpert his writing in light of his other writings, it makes sense that
either he was two people or he was for real Christianity but against
corrupted Christianity, just as all real Christians are. But I have heard
that he was one of the least religious of the founding fathers. Perhaps the
reason Jesus isn't mentioned in the Constitution is because they didn't want
to hear the leftards grumbling about it. :-)

As for Christianity and Christian principles...well, the letter to Short
lays it out pretty well. Jefferson considered himself a "true" Christian
in the sense that he believed deeply in the teachings of Jesus, although
not in his divinity or his ability to perform miracles. And he thought
that the idea that Jesus was the son of God was nonsense. He considered
Jesus to be our greatest philosopher, and all of the trappings that had
been attached to his life, which became the religion Christianity and
which fills much of the New Testament, Jefferson called "a dunghill."
Jefferson again:

--
Ed Huntress

What makes Jesus different than just another philosopher is that God
"signed" his teachings with the "signs and wonders". This is more than a
2000 year old story because these "signs and wonders" (the same miracles
that Jesus did and even greater miracles) are not to stop until we are "face
to face" with Jesus. So, why don't we see many of these "signs and wonders"
today? Jesus seemed to have a tough time finding people to "believe and not
doubt". After Jesus' disciples healed sick and cast out demons, they had
one they couldn't cast out and they brought him to Jesus, Jesus cast out the
demon. The disciples ask why they couldn't cast it out, Jesus said it was
because of their unbelief and that faith like that comes from prayer and
fasting. Notice Jesus ministry and miracles didn't start until after his 40
days of fasting and temptation, also note that Jesus often retreated into
the mountains, I'm guessing it was for prayer and fasting.

So, if someone wants to follow Jesus and be able to do the miracles that
Jesus did, they could start by giving every part of their life to Jesus.
Retreat from the world, pray and fast, seek God with all your being, read
Jesus' teachings in the gospels and do what he says. Then go, heal the
sick, raise the dead, and preach the good news! The reason we don't see
this is because doing this isn't easy.

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

snip

Jefferson, as I said, was a Deist who admired Jesus's philosophy.

What does Jefferson say (though I'm sure he doesn't know himself as well
as
modern liberals do)

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the
genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian..."
To Dr. Benjamin Rush, with a Syllabus
Washington, Apr. 21, 1803
"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a
document in proof that I am a real Christian..."

Thomas Jefferson to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816

So shall we believe Ed on Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Jefferson himself?
What about his writings against Christianity? Could it be he was
referring
to the "corruptions of Christianity" that he wrote about above? If you
interpert his writing in light of his other writings, it makes sense that
either he was two people or he was for real Christianity but against
corrupted Christianity, just as all real Christians are. But I have heard
that he was one of the least religious of the founding fathers. Perhaps
the
reason Jesus isn't mentioned in the Constitution is because they didn't
want
to hear the leftards grumbling about it. :-)

As for Christianity and Christian principles...well, the letter to Short
lays it out pretty well. Jefferson considered himself a "true" Christian
in the sense that he believed deeply in the teachings of Jesus, although
not in his divinity or his ability to perform miracles. And he thought
that the idea that Jesus was the son of God was nonsense. He considered
Jesus to be our greatest philosopher, and all of the trappings that had
been attached to his life, which became the religion Christianity and
which fills much of the New Testament, Jefferson called "a dunghill."
Jefferson again:

--
Ed Huntress

What makes Jesus different than just another philosopher is that God
"signed" his teachings with the "signs and wonders". This is more than a
2000 year old story because these "signs and wonders" (the same miracles
that Jesus did and even greater miracles) are not to stop until we are
"face
to face" with Jesus. So, why don't we see many of these "signs and
wonders"
today? Jesus seemed to have a tough time finding people to "believe and
not
doubt". After Jesus' disciples healed sick and cast out demons, they had
one they couldn't cast out and they brought him to Jesus, Jesus cast out
the
demon. The disciples ask why they couldn't cast it out, Jesus said it was
because of their unbelief and that faith like that comes from prayer and
fasting. Notice Jesus ministry and miracles didn't start until after his
40
days of fasting and temptation, also note that Jesus often retreated into
the mountains, I'm guessing it was for prayer and fasting.

So, if someone wants to follow Jesus and be able to do the miracles that
Jesus did, they could start by giving every part of their life to Jesus.
Retreat from the world, pray and fast, seek God with all your being, read
Jesus' teachings in the gospels and do what he says. Then go, heal the
sick, raise the dead, and preach the good news! The reason we don't see
this is because doing this isn't easy.


And maybe it's because nobody actually really did it. A reasonable person
would question the truthfulness and accuracy of something written a hundred
years ago. For something written thousands of years ago a reasonable person
would accept little or nothing as being completely accurate. Not you though.
Same with the Muslims. You and them think what was written thousands of
years ago is perfect. A reasonable person knows it's not. But you can't even
see how similar your behavior is to the Sunnis and Shiites. I can. Two peas
in a pod, just a different book is all that's different.

Hawke

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Congressman Forbes asks the questions "Did America ever consider itself a
Judeo-Christian nation?"
and
"If America was once a Judeo-Christian nation, when did it cease to be?"
on the floor of the US House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o

--

If you want some facts that liberals don't like, the library of congress has
a couple of pages online.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

RogerN

On Jun 19, 10:31*pm, "RogerN" wrote:

If you want some facts that liberals don't like, the library of congress has
a couple of pages online.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

What exactly from those pages do you contend that "liberals don't
like" ?

Perhaps the most obvious questionable issue would be the services held
in the house chamber, however it's not clear to me that this could not
be done in a way that would pass constitutional muster today. The
apparent variety of services held then might not be enough today -
today you would probably have to provide equal access not just to
deistic unitarians and their sacred coffee urn, but to non-religious
groups as well.

Generally, what you seem to have found is evidence of a growing nation
experimenting with the balance between a controversial subject such as
religion in general, in specific, in public, and in private. In
other words, doing exactly what "liberals" would hope it would.