"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?



Karl

On Sun, 17 May 2009 17:36:54 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?


..125 minimum thickness. 1/8th inch. Frankly..Id go to 3/16th inch. or
even .250...1/4"

Shrug...your choice.

If it was only 8" deep..Id say 1/8", with some cross members.

But you are asking Sheet Metal to hold 200 gallons of water.

Shrug

Gunner



Karl


"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates

Karl Townsend wrote:
... We're building a water tank 16" high by ...

Why so deep? It's just to catch molten "swarf", right? My intuition is
that an inch or 2 of water would be plenty. Bob

Why so deep? It's just to catch molten "swarf", right? My intuition is
that an inch or 2 of water would be plenty. Bob

Want to be able to go 1" over grates, grates are 3", 3" under grates to
easily scrape swarf out. then a captive air/water tank (let air out water
drops below - air up water goes to grate level) - 8", then 1" slope to drain
easily. 1+3+3+8+1=16

Karl

On Sun, 17 May 2009 17:36:54 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough.

I agree with him. I think you'll need reinforcement along the top rim
as well of course.

I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Fine if you don't mind the extra cost and weight.

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?

I welded a tank out of thinnish (don't remember exactly) steel, about
2'X2'X4' tall. TIG tacked the seams every 6" or so, then TIGed the
seams solid. Lots of heat but only very slight warping. When the steel
wouldn't hold up with 160F water, I built a second version out of
stainless. I'd don't think warping will be an issue with yours.

10X6X say, 1 foot of water plus the tank will weigh about 2 tons. Does
it really need to be so deep?

Wayne

On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:51:06 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

Why so deep? It's just to catch molten "swarf", right? My intuition is
that an inch or 2 of water would be plenty. Bob

Want to be able to go 1" over grates, grates are 3", 3" under grates to
easily scrape swarf out. then a captive air/water tank (let air out water
drops below - air up water goes to grate level) - 8", then 1" slope to drain
easily. 1+3+3+8+1=16

Karl


I have shop space in a bigger shop that has a ESAB plasma table. 20'x
10'

And the tank is about 5" deep. And its 3/16" tank steel

Gunner



"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:51:06 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

Why so deep? It's just to catch molten "swarf", right? My intuition is
that an inch or 2 of water would be plenty. Bob

Want to be able to go 1" over grates, grates are 3", 3" under grates to
easily scrape swarf out. then a captive air/water tank (let air out water
drops below - air up water goes to grate level) - 8", then 1" slope to
drain
easily. 1+3+3+8+1=16

Karl


I have shop space in a bigger shop that has a ESAB plasma table. 20'x
10'

And the tank is about 5" deep. And its 3/16" tank steel

Gunner

Good to know. Mine will have weeks at a time unused so I want to drop the
water off the grids and into an enclosed tank. Seen the idea I'm using on
another plasma table. Does this shop have a method to do this? I know the
shop my son works at doesn't. They just drain once per week and cleanup.
This lets you wash it out, mine can't do that unless I drain.

You've got me thinking 1/8 with angle reinforce on the bottom. 0.100
elsewhere. I got to watch my costs, this much steel is expensive.

Karl

On Sun, 17 May 2009 17:36:54 -0500, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
scrawled the following:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

With 16" of water to push on it, you'd have (6x10x1.333' = 78 x
64.5lbs/cu.ft.) 5,013 pounds of water in the tank. I vote with your
guess, or heavier, depending upon the amount of stiffeners you put in
the sides to keep it from oil-canning. I'm too lazy to get the Audel
Millwright's book from the bedroom. (It's late; G'night, Karl.)


Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?

Shirley, ewe jest!

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

1/8" with no reinforcement will probably rip along the edges :-). 16" deep
x 6' x 10' of pure water weighs 4992 lbs, and that load uniformly applied to
a 6x10' sheet of 1/8" steel results in a bending stress of 91 ksi and a
calculated deflection of 6.8". I'm no engineer but just doodling with a
cross support every 2', 6' long, supported at the ends, each taking 1/5 of
the 5000 lbs, using 3" square tubing (makes it possible to get forklift
forks under it) would result in a deflection in the middle of each tube of
..056" and a maximum stress of 4.6 ksi for a safety margin of at least 10.
So that's the kind of supports I'd be thinking of. For comparison 3x3x1/4"
angle is about 1/3 the stiffness and 3" tall x 2" wide x 1/4" tube is 2/3
the stiffness. A very useful program for this kind of stuff is Engineering
Power Tools from www.pwr-tools.com. The free version works but is missing
some advanced beam deflection features, among others, and it's only about
$50 for the full version and well worth it IMHO. Oh, and of course my
estimate completely ignored the weight of your grid structure.

Couldn't you weld it by stitching 2" then moving a couple of feet away and
doing another 2", etc, to keep the local heat buildup under control?

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication
on my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6'
by 10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course,
the bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron
every two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for
sure. I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of
sealer/filler to prevent leaks. What would work here?



Karl

On Sun, 17 May 2009 16:13:39 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Sun, 17 May 2009 17:36:54 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?


.125 minimum thickness. 1/8th inch. Frankly..Id go to 3/16th inch. or
even .250...1/4"

Shrug...your choice.

If it was only 8" deep..Id say 1/8", with some cross members.

But you are asking Sheet Metal to hold 200 gallons of water.

Doublecheck your figures. Water's 8.3lbs/gal and 64.5lbs/cu.ft.
That's 7.5 gallons per cu.ft. x 78, or 585 gallons if filled to the
top.

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

On Sun, 17 May 2009 19:29:53 -0400, the infamous Bob Engelhardt
scrawled the following:

Karl Townsend wrote:
... We're building a water tank 16" high by ...

Why so deep? It's just to catch molten "swarf", right? My intuition is
that an inch or 2 of water would be plenty. Bob

I wanna see them move the tank out from under the plasma cutter with
2.5 tons of water and triple that amount of cutoff steel plate in it,
don't you? g

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Sun, 17 May 2009 16:13:39 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 17:36:54 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?


.125 minimum thickness. 1/8th inch. Frankly..Id go to 3/16th inch. or
even .250...1/4"

Shrug...your choice.

If it was only 8" deep..Id say 1/8", with some cross members.

But you are asking Sheet Metal to hold 200 gallons of water.

"A pints a pound the world around" - water is approximately 8
pounds to the gallon. 200 gallons is three quarters of a ton.

As an engineering guy I knew once wrote "Overstressed systems will
eventually become unstressed. But wouldn't you rather do it in a
controlled manner?"


-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Sun, 17 May 2009 22:03:10 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 17 May 2009 16:13:39 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Sun, 17 May 2009 17:36:54 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?


.125 minimum thickness. 1/8th inch. Frankly..Id go to 3/16th inch. or
even .250...1/4"

Shrug...your choice.

If it was only 8" deep..Id say 1/8", with some cross members.

But you are asking Sheet Metal to hold 200 gallons of water.

Doublecheck your figures. Water's 8.3lbs/gal and 64.5lbs/cu.ft.
That's 7.5 gallons per cu.ft. x 78, or 585 gallons if filled to the
top.


Very good indeed. I was simply pondering without resorting to a
calculator.

Thanks!

Gunner

"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates

pyotr filipivich wrote:

"A pints a pound the world around" - water is approximately 8
pounds to the gallon. 200 gallons is three quarters of a ton.


Not in UK it isn't. A UK pint is 1.200949 USA pints, so a UK gallon is
about 10lbs.
In both languages, 1 cubic foot of water weighs about 62.43lbs, so the
proposed (80 cu.ft) tank would hold about 4994.4 lbs (2.23 tons) of water


--
Regards, Gary Wooding
(To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address)

I see this as a pressure issue as you mentioned, not a weight or volume
issue. Sixteen inches of water head isn't very much - not even 1 psi.

Jordan

Karl Townsend wrote:
how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank.

Let the Record show that lemelman on or about
Mon, 18 May 2009 09:32:28 +0100 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
pyotr filipivich wrote:

"A pints a pound the world around" - water is approximately 8
pounds to the gallon. 200 gallons is three quarters of a ton.


Not in UK it isn't. A UK pint is 1.200949 USA pints, so a UK gallon is
about 10lbs.

Well,I did say "approximately". Now I'm going to have to go dig
the reference out and check. (As to the "pints a pound" bit - my
response on first hearing that was "Man, beer is expensive!")
Hmm.. 8 pints to the gallon, 8.345 pounds of water to the US
gallon, or .133 cubic foot to the gallon US, so ... whip out ye old
calculator, punch, punch, punch, ... well, dang, he's right.

In both languages, 1 cubic foot of water weighs about 62.43lbs, so the
proposed (80 cu.ft) tank would hold about 4994.4 lbs (2.23 tons) of water

I got 2.5 tons of water, "close enough". Still more than I first
estimated, and still enough to over stress a system 8-)

tschus
pyotr

"I am always willing to learn. I am not always willing to be taught."
WSC


-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On May 18, 12:59*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
...I'm too lazy to get the Audel
Millwright's book from the bedroom. (It's late; G'night, Karl.)

[Next morning, as the coffee slowly takes effect]
The 1981 edition has only simple algebra such as figuring rafter
lengths. I don't see any structural calculations at all.

It's still a useful book that describes a wide range of general
handyman skills such as how to frame a house, plus ones more specific
to metalworking like the right and wrong ways to install a bearing
with a hammer.

jsw

On May 17, 6:36*pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom *and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?

Karl

Just something to think about... Livestock water tanks are only made
of 20 gauge steel even the 10' round ones. Granted they are corragated
somewhat and have a metal pipe around the top for reinforcement but
still it should give you an idea on what will work. Jesse

On May 18, 8:45*am, Jesse wrote:
On May 17, 6:36*pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom *and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?

Karl

Just something to think about... Livestock water tanks are only made
of 20 gauge steel even the 10' round ones. Granted they are corragated
somewhat and have a metal pipe around the top for reinforcement but
still it should give you an idea on what will work. * Jesse

BTW the livestock water tanks are 24" high.

On May 18, 8:45*am, Jesse wrote:
On May 17, 6:36*pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom *and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?

Karl

Just something to think about... Livestock water tanks are only made
of 20 gauge steel even the 10' round ones. Granted they are corragated
somewhat and have a metal pipe around the top for reinforcement but
still it should give you an idea on what will work. * Jesse

Here is a link to a livestock tank manufacturer:
http://www.behlencountry.com/products/galvanized

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication
on my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6'
by 10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course,
the bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron
every two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for
sure. I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of
sealer/filler to prevent leaks. What would work here?



Karl


I built my water tank out of 14 ga hot rolled and it held fine till I got
tired of that black water mess. I started exhausting the dust from my
machine into a chamber where most of the dust fell out of suspension and
then into the great outdoors.
Steve

Karl Townsend wrote:
"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?



Karl


As long as you use a support frame around it 10 gauge would work just fine.
The portable ponds we use in the fire service are nothing but a canvas
tarp with a lightweight support frame. 1500 gallon units are 10'2" per
side and 28" deep. A typical support frame will bow 4" in the center of
a 10 foot side. Those are 1/2" tube with 1/8" strap bracing every 2 feet
or so. Replace the canvas with steel and make the support frame out of
2X2 box and you shouldn't have a problem.
Your looking at almost 600 gallons of water at that size.

--
Steve W.

On Mon, 18 May 2009 00:41:54 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Sun, 17 May 2009 22:03:10 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 17 May 2009 16:13:39 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Sun, 17 May 2009 17:36:54 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?


.125 minimum thickness. 1/8th inch. Frankly..Id go to 3/16th inch. or
even .250...1/4"

Shrug...your choice.

If it was only 8" deep..Id say 1/8", with some cross members.

But you are asking Sheet Metal to hold 200 gallons of water.

Doublecheck your figures. Water's 8.3lbs/gal and 64.5lbs/cu.ft.
That's 7.5 gallons per cu.ft. x 78, or 585 gallons if filled to the
top.


Very good indeed. I was simply pondering without resorting to a
calculator.

Thanks!

Jewelcome. I resorted to the calc because it was in front of me. The
formulae were in the other room, thus escaping me.

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Doublecheck your figures. Water's 8.3lbs/gal and 64.5lbs/cu.ft.
That's 7.5 gallons per cu.ft. x 78, or 585 gallons if filled to the
top

I find 62.43lb/cu.ft. in my water constants reference....??


LLoyd

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Doublecheck your figures. Water's 8.3lbs/gal and 64.5lbs/cu.ft.
That's 7.5 gallons per cu.ft. x 78, or 585 gallons if filled to the
top

I find 62.43lb/cu.ft. in my water constants reference....??


LLoyd



Pure water - 62.4 lb./cu.ft.
Sea water - 64.1 lb./cu.ft.

The water in this area is high mineral and dissolved solids and weighs
in at 63.05lb./cu.ft. (actually weighed it for a pump ops class!)



--
Steve W.

On Sun, 17 May 2009 17:36:54 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication on
my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Second question, if we weld every inch of every seam it will warp for sure.
I'd like to just stitch weld it and then use some sort of sealer/filler to
prevent leaks. What would work here?



Karl

It depends on your structural design. You have two requirements: one
is a water-impervious "skin" that will contain water, the other is a
structure that supports the weight of the water at desired height from
ground. Both of these requirements can be accomplished by one entity,
but they don't necessarily have to be. Example: a structure made of
lumber and plywood with a thin water-impervious rubber skin.

16" deep water weighs 83.2 lb per square foot. That will be the
pressure at the bottom of the tank, both on the bottom and on the
sides.

If it is to be at some height above floor or ground, then the bottom
structure needs to be a platform capable of supporting 83.2 lb per
square foot. The sides will be in tension due to water pressure, but
even very thin steel could handle this. A PET (plastic) soda bottle
can handle over 100 PSI which is 14,400 lb/ft^2.

For structural ideas, look at some trailers. A 4' x 8' trailer rated
for (and loaded with) 2662 lb would have 83.2 lb per square ft, and
so on.

pyotr filipivich wrote:

Well,I did say "approximately". Now I'm going to have to go dig
the reference out and check. (As to the "pints a pound" bit - my
response on first hearing that was "Man, beer is expensive!")
Hmm.. 8 pints to the gallon, 8.345 pounds of water to the US
gallon, or .133 cubic foot to the gallon US, so ... whip out ye old
calculator, punch, punch, punch, ... well, dang, he's right.

In both languages, 1 cubic foot of water weighs about 62.43lbs, so the
proposed (80 cu.ft) tank would hold about 4994.4 lbs (2.23 tons) of water

I got 2.5 tons of water, "close enough". Still more than I first
estimated, and still enough to over stress a system 8-)

tschus
pyotr

"I am always willing to learn. I am not always willing to be taught."
WSC


-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!


So, in other words, about a queen sized water bed?

Karl Townsend wrote:

"The Kid" is on a rolling layoff, so I'm hiring him to do the fabrication
on my 6' by 10' plasma cutter. We're building a water tank 16" high by 6'
by 10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course,
the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron
every two feet.

"The Kid" thinks 0.070" or 14 gauge should be enough. I'm leaning toward
0.100" or 11guage to be sure. Any way to know?

Not exactly my area of expertise, but (when has that ever stopped
anyone ;-)):

I've helped a couple of friends with a small winery. They have 1000 liter
stainless steel fermentation tanks (about 40" diam x 60" high, IIRC). My
impression of the tanks' construction is that they were nowhere near 0.10"
thick. I can lift one (empty) pretty easily. When filled, they sit on some
4x4s, about 2' apart. So at 16" deep, I don't think you'll need anything
too thick as long as you support the tank bottom.


These tanks have all welded and ground seams (food grade requirements not to
have any place for crud to hide). I don't know how they were welded at the
factory, but it must be possible to keep things from warping somehow.

--
Paul Hovnanian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

On May 17, 3:36*pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom *and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

The total weight of water bears on the bottom of the tank; you need to
support
that bottom, probably every foot or so, to keep it from warping. Any
thickness
that has been suggested is 'enough' with suitable support. If you
set it
on level ground, it can be a kid's vinyl playpool.

Your more significant problem is the 10' long straight sidewall, which
will
be bowed outward by water pressure; at 16", that pressure is
rho * g * h = 62*(12**-3) *16 = 0.54 pounds/square inch
The bottom of the sidewall, of course, is welded to a stressed sheet,
and that will take about half of the force, the other half is

10 ft * 12 in/ft * 16 in * 0.25 * 0.54 psi = 259 lbs

None of the suggested sheet thicknesses will hold 259 lbs distributed
load without deflecting on a 10' length. You need to put a rigid
brace (something
like a 2x6 or so) at maybe 8" from the bottom, to keep the sides
straight.

On Mon, 18 May 2009 11:59:48 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On May 17, 3:36*pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom *and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.

The total weight of water bears on the bottom of the tank; you need to
support
that bottom, probably every foot or so, to keep it from warping. Any
thickness
that has been suggested is 'enough' with suitable support. If you
set it
on level ground, it can be a kid's vinyl playpool.

Your more significant problem is the 10' long straight sidewall, which
will
be bowed outward by water pressure; at 16", that pressure is
rho * g * h = 62*(12**-3) *16 = 0.54 pounds/square inch
The bottom of the sidewall, of course, is welded to a stressed sheet,
and that will take about half of the force, the other half is

10 ft * 12 in/ft * 16 in * 0.25 * 0.54 psi = 259 lbs

None of the suggested sheet thicknesses will hold 259 lbs distributed
load without deflecting on a 10' length. You need to put a rigid
brace (something
like a 2x6 or so) at maybe 8" from the bottom, to keep the sides
straight.

Indeed. Id suggest one at the top as well.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

Don Foreman wrote:

16" deep water weighs 83.2 lb per square foot.

---------------

And that's less than 0.6 psi folks (83.2/144).

A 16" can of diameter 1 foot, say, needs just as much strength to
contain its contents as 16" x football field area, say.

Jordan

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Doublecheck your figures. Water's 8.3lbs/gal and 64.5lbs/cu.ft.
That's 7.5 gallons per cu.ft. x 78, or 585 gallons if filled to the
top

I find 62.43lb/cu.ft. in my water constants reference....??


LLoyd

At what temperature is that? When we get down to the .0x lbs.
we better specify the temp and the value of G. :-)
...lew...

Lew Hartswick fired this volley in
m:

At what temperature is that? When we get down to the .0x lbs.
we better specify the temp and the value of G. :-)
...lew...


I'll look it up again, but I seem to remember that was at 20C.

In any case, a difference of two pounds per cubic foot isn't accounted
for by a few degrees C.

LLoyd

On Mon, 18 May 2009 16:37:26 -0600, the infamous Lew Hartswick
scrawled the following:

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Doublecheck your figures. Water's 8.3lbs/gal and 64.5lbs/cu.ft.
That's 7.5 gallons per cu.ft. x 78, or 585 gallons if filled to the
top

I find 62.43lb/cu.ft. in my water constants reference....??


LLoyd

At what temperature is that? When we get down to the .0x lbs.
we better specify the temp and the value of G. :-)
...lew...

Egad, we missed the RH and sea level coefficients, too! Egg all over
our faces, wot?

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

On May 18, 9:10*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2009 16:37:26 -0600, the infamous Lew Hartswick
scrawled the following:





Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
m:

Doublecheck your figures. Water's 8.3lbs/gal and 64.5lbs/cu.ft.
That's 7.5 gallons per cu.ft. x 78, or 585 gallons if filled to the
top

I find 62.43lb/cu.ft. in my water constants reference....??

LLoyd

At what temperature is that? *When we get down to the .0x lbs.
we better specify the temp and the value of G. :-)
* *...lew...

Egad, we missed the RH and sea level coefficients, too! *Egg all over
our faces, wot?

Then we have to adjust for the temperature rise from all the hot steel
falling in.

jsw

Had heavy water numbers maybe ?

Martin :-)

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Doublecheck your figures. Water's 8.3lbs/gal and 64.5lbs/cu.ft.
That's 7.5 gallons per cu.ft. x 78, or 585 gallons if filled to the
top

I find 62.43lb/cu.ft. in my water constants reference....??


LLoyd

Put a 1/4" bead down the line - with a bead bender. It will strengthen
the side very well.

Martin

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2009 11:59:48 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On May 17, 3:36 pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.
The total weight of water bears on the bottom of the tank; you need to
support
that bottom, probably every foot or so, to keep it from warping. Any
thickness
that has been suggested is 'enough' with suitable support. If you
set it
on level ground, it can be a kid's vinyl playpool.

Your more significant problem is the 10' long straight sidewall, which
will
be bowed outward by water pressure; at 16", that pressure is
rho * g * h = 62*(12**-3) *16 = 0.54 pounds/square inch
The bottom of the sidewall, of course, is welded to a stressed sheet,
and that will take about half of the force, the other half is

10 ft * 12 in/ft * 16 in * 0.25 * 0.54 psi = 259 lbs

None of the suggested sheet thicknesses will hold 259 lbs distributed
load without deflecting on a 10' length. You need to put a rigid
brace (something
like a 2x6 or so) at maybe 8" from the bottom, to keep the sides
straight.

Indeed. Id suggest one at the top as well.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

On Mon, 18 May 2009 22:10:23 GMT, Jordan
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

16" deep water weighs 83.2 lb per square foot.

---------------

And that's less than 0.6 psi folks (83.2/144).

A 16" can of diameter 1 foot, say, needs just as much strength to
contain its contents as 16" x football field area, say.

Jordan

Right, but the platform load is about double that expected for
residential floors. A vinyl above-ground pool could handle the water
pressure.

On Mon, 18 May 2009 22:13:38 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Put a 1/4" bead down the line - with a bead bender. It will strengthen
the side very well.

Martin

Indeed it will. However if the bead gets flattened out...

Gunner


Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2009 11:59:48 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On May 17, 3:36 pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
We're building a water tank 16" high by 6' by
10'. Our question, how thick a steel do we need to prevent the water
pressure from severely deforming the tank. The main issue is, of course, the
bottom and it would be no big deal to put in a reinforcing angle iron every
two feet.
The total weight of water bears on the bottom of the tank; you need to
support
that bottom, probably every foot or so, to keep it from warping. Any
thickness
that has been suggested is 'enough' with suitable support. If you
set it
on level ground, it can be a kid's vinyl playpool.

Your more significant problem is the 10' long straight sidewall, which
will
be bowed outward by water pressure; at 16", that pressure is
rho * g * h = 62*(12**-3) *16 = 0.54 pounds/square inch
The bottom of the sidewall, of course, is welded to a stressed sheet,
and that will take about half of the force, the other half is

10 ft * 12 in/ft * 16 in * 0.25 * 0.54 psi = 259 lbs

None of the suggested sheet thicknesses will hold 259 lbs distributed
load without deflecting on a 10' length. You need to put a rigid
brace (something
like a 2x6 or so) at maybe 8" from the bottom, to keep the sides
straight.

Indeed. Id suggest one at the top as well.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

Let the Record show that cavelamb on or about
Mon, 18 May 2009 13:26:03 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
pyotr filipivich wrote:

Well,I did say "approximately". Now I'm going to have to go dig
the reference out and check. (As to the "pints a pound" bit - my
response on first hearing that was "Man, beer is expensive!")
Hmm.. 8 pints to the gallon, 8.345 pounds of water to the US
gallon, or .133 cubic foot to the gallon US, so ... whip out ye old
calculator, punch, punch, punch, ... well, dang, he's right.

In both languages, 1 cubic foot of water weighs about 62.43lbs, so the
proposed (80 cu.ft) tank would hold about 4994.4 lbs (2.23 tons) of water

I got 2.5 tons of water, "close enough". Still more than I first
estimated, and still enough to over stress a system 8-)

tschus
pyotr

"I am always willing to learn. I am not always willing to be taught."
WSC

So, in other words, about a queen sized water bed?

Ummm, yeah, seems about that much, if you say so.


Say, if I put a one of them queen size water beds in the other
corner of the house (catty whampus from the part which is sagging, you
recon I might be able to raise the sagging end enough to rebuild the
supports under there?

tschus
pyotr

-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!