Hello Steamers,

Can anyone suggest a way to supply a small model steam plant with
propane to fire it? The 3/16"-dia copper inlet tube for the gas to
the boiler has both an on/off valve, and a proportioning valve to
control the flow. My question relates to how to best feed the propane
from a small Bernzomatic-type cylinder to the tube. Will i need a gas
regulator? Can I adapt a Bernzomatic torch head in some way? How have
you seen it done?

This is for a small model steam plant that includes a horizontal
boiler and a 4-cylinder steam engine that i inherited from my Father
who made it in the 1970's and I want to get it running again. I have
it currently running on compressed air up to 80psi with no problems or
leaks, yet.

Thanks for any help.

PaulS

On Mar 9, 2:05*pm, PaulS wrote:
Hello Steamers,

Can anyone suggest a way to supply a small model steam plant with
propane to fire it? *The 3/16"-dia copper inlet tube for the gas to
the boiler has both an on/off valve, and a proportioning valve to
control the flow. *My question relates to how to best feed the propane
from a small Bernzomatic-type cylinder to the tube. *Will i need a gas
regulator? Can I adapt a Bernzomatic torch head in some way? *How have
you seen it done?

This is for a small model steam plant that includes a horizontal
boiler and a 4-cylinder steam engine that i inherited from my Father
who made it in the 1970's and I want to get it running again. *I have
it currently running on compressed air up to 80psi with no problems or
leaks, yet.

Thanks for any help.

PaulS

Check out Live Steam magazine, I'm sure those folks do this all the
time. The British magazine Model Engineer also has had propane firing
in the past, some of the larger US libraries subscribed and have back
issues. Big on live steam locomotives and tractors. One approach
I've seen for moving models was to cut down the regular Bernzomatic-
style tanks to half-size or less. Burners were more or less home-made
affairs, you'd have to see the articles.

Stan

wrote in message
...
On Mar 9, 2:05 pm, PaulS wrote:
Hello Steamers,

Can anyone suggest a way to supply a small model steam plant with
propane to fire it? The 3/16"-dia copper inlet tube for the gas to
the boiler has both an on/off valve, and a proportioning valve to
control the flow. My question relates to how to best feed the propane
from a small Bernzomatic-type cylinder to the tube. Will i need a gas
regulator? Can I adapt a Bernzomatic torch head in some way? How have
you seen it done?

This is for a small model steam plant that includes a horizontal
boiler and a 4-cylinder steam engine that i inherited from my Father
who made it in the 1970's and I want to get it running again. I have
it currently running on compressed air up to 80psi with no problems or
leaks, yet.

Thanks for any help.

PaulS

Check out Live Steam magazine, I'm sure those folks do this all the
time. The British magazine Model Engineer also has had propane firing
in the past, some of the larger US libraries subscribed and have back
issues. Big on live steam locomotives and tractors. One approach
I've seen for moving models was to cut down the regular Bernzomatic-
style tanks to half-size or less. Burners were more or less home-made
affairs, you'd have to see the articles.

Stan

for a regulator, just look around. Lots of scrap barbeques go to the dumps.

On Mar 9, 5:14*pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Mar 9, 2:05 pm, PaulS wrote:



Hello Steamers,

Can anyone suggest a way to supply a small model steam plant with
propane to fire it? The 3/16"-dia copper inlet tube for the gas to
the boiler has both an on/off valve, and a proportioning valve to
control the flow. My question relates to how to best feed the propane
from a small Bernzomatic-type cylinder to the tube. Will i need a gas
regulator? Can I adapt a Bernzomatic torch head in some way? How have
you seen it done?

This is for a small model steam plant that includes a horizontal
boiler and a 4-cylinder steam engine that i inherited from my Father
who made it in the 1970's and I want to get it running again. I have
it currently running on compressed air up to 80psi with no problems or
leaks, yet.

Thanks for any help.

PaulS

Check out Live Steam magazine, I'm sure those folks do this all the
time. *The British magazine Model Engineer also has had propane firing
in the past, some of the larger US libraries subscribed and have back
issues. *Big on live steam locomotives and tractors. *One approach
I've seen for moving models was to cut down the regular Bernzomatic-
style tanks to half-size or less. *Burners were more or less home-made
affairs, you'd have to see the articles.

Stan

for a regulator, just look around. *Lots of scrap barbeques go to the dumps.

OK, so this is where I am confused. I need to somehow connect to the
propane cylinder's top , like how a torch head screws on it. Then I
need to pipe that connection to a gas regulator, say from a gas BBQ,
then a simple rubber tube will go from the regulator output to the
burner infeed tube.

It's the cylinder connection/regulator set-up I can't figure out how
to do yet.

I have an old Bernzomatic torch head. I suppose I can cut off the
torch's top at the brass tube after the screw cap/valve assembly part/
but before the torch metering jet. Now I'll have a cut-off piece of
brass pipe that screws on to a cylinder, but it will put out full
bottle pressure when I open the valve. Then I suppose I can fit a
compression fitting, or even solder a brass pipe connection fitting,
to transition that to a pipe thread size that will feed into a gas
regulator's input. output side is easy I suppose, just a pipe reducer
to a rubber tube that slips onto the burner infeed tube.

Every BBQ regulator the same? How many PSI we talking in a typical
small torch propane cylinder?

Thanks for your input.

PaulS

Propane camping stoves, e.g., Coleman, use the 14 oz propane cylinders.
The same as torches. These stoves have a regulator built in to the
propane "head". And a nipple on the output to attach a hose to.

Propane is stored as a liquid. The vapor pressure at room temperature
is around 100psi. With a built in regulator, the tank psi would be a
non issue. The output pressure is a few inches of water. I.e.,
insignificant.

Bob

On Mar 9, 4:33�pm, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Propane camping stoves, e.g., Coleman, use the 14 oz propane cylinders.
� The same as torches. �These stoves have a regulator built in to the
propane "head". �And a nipple on the output to attach a hose to.

Propane is stored as a liquid. �The vapor pressure at room temperature
is around 100psi. �With a built in regulator, the tank psi would be a
non issue. �The output pressure is a few inches of water. �I.e.,
insignificant.

Bob

If you draw propane from the tank for any length of time it will cool
off from evaporation and the pressure will drop down to nil.
I would put the tank in a container of warm water.
Engineman

What's that Lassie? You say that PaulS fell down the old
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Mon, 9 Mar 2009 15:02:34 -0700 (PDT):

It's the cylinder connection/regulator set-up I can't figure out how
to do yet.


Some torch heads are a regulator. Others are just a needle valve.
One of the torches I have has the regulator, and the burner tube is
threaded 1/8npt. I once added some tubing between the head and burner
tube to get into a tight spot.

Look for a torch head that has the knob on the top of the brass head,
not on the side. And if you can open the package and rotate the knob,
it will rise up going in the off direction and go down in the on
direction. And if you are lucky, it will have a standard thread on
the burner tube connection.

--

Dan H.

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:14:03 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Mar 9, 2:05 pm, PaulS wrote:
Hello Steamers,

Can anyone suggest a way to supply a small model steam plant with
propane to fire it? The 3/16"-dia copper inlet tube for the gas to
the boiler has both an on/off valve, and a proportioning valve to
control the flow. My question relates to how to best feed the propane
from a small Bernzomatic-type cylinder to the tube. Will i need a gas
regulator? Can I adapt a Bernzomatic torch head in some way? How have
you seen it done?

This is for a small model steam plant that includes a horizontal
boiler and a 4-cylinder steam engine that i inherited from my Father
who made it in the 1970's and I want to get it running again. I have
it currently running on compressed air up to 80psi with no problems or
leaks, yet.

Thanks for any help.

PaulS

Check out Live Steam magazine, I'm sure those folks do this all the
time. The British magazine Model Engineer also has had propane firing
in the past, some of the larger US libraries subscribed and have back
issues. Big on live steam locomotives and tractors. One approach
I've seen for moving models was to cut down the regular Bernzomatic-
style tanks to half-size or less. Burners were more or less home-made
affairs, you'd have to see the articles.

Stan

for a regulator, just look around. Lots of scrap barbeques go to the dumps.

Think table top BBQ
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On 2009-03-09, PaulS wrote:
On Mar 9, 5:14*pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Mar 9, 2:05 pm, PaulS wrote:



Hello Steamers,

Can anyone suggest a way to supply a small model steam plant with
propane to fire it? The 3/16"-dia copper inlet tube for the gas to
the boiler has both an on/off valve, and a proportioning valve to
control the flow. My question relates to how to best feed the propane
from a small Bernzomatic-type cylinder to the tube. Will i need a gas
regulator? Can I adapt a Bernzomatic torch head in some way? How have
you seen it done?
for a regulator, just look around. *Lots of scrap barbeques go to the dumps.

OK, so this is where I am confused. I need to somehow connect to the
propane cylinder's top , like how a torch head screws on it. Then I
need to pipe that connection to a gas regulator, say from a gas BBQ,
then a simple rubber tube will go from the regulator output to the
burner infeed tube.

It's the cylinder connection/regulator set-up I can't figure out how
to do yet.

I have an old Bernzomatic torch head. I suppose I can cut off the
torch's top at the brass tube after the screw cap/valve assembly part/
but before the torch metering jet. Now I'll have a cut-off piece of
brass pipe that screws on to a cylinder, but it will put out full
bottle pressure when I open the valve.

The pressure from a Bernzomatic bottle is quite low, and I,
personally, would keep the needle valve and simply unscrew the pipe from
the burner or from the head and screw in an adaptor to the hose.

The only reason for a regulator would be to keep the flow closer
to constant as you run low in the bottle. The needle valve should be
all you need for most things.

Then I suppose I can fit a
compression fitting, or even solder a brass pipe connection fitting,
to transition that to a pipe thread size that will feed into a gas
regulator's input.

Most regulators are going to require too much pressure
differential requirement to work well at propane pressures. Have you
ever wondered why the gas regulator on the entrance to your house is so
large in diameter? That is so it can be sensitive enough to regulate
the very low pressures in a natural gas line.

output side is easy I suppose, just a pipe reducer
to a rubber tube that slips onto the burner infeed tube.

Just do that after the needle valve and let the flow be set by
the needle valve -- into a burner which is always open.

Every BBQ regulator the same? How many PSI we talking in a typical
small torch propane cylinder?

A quick google search found this -- in the summary without even
following the link.

================================================== ====================
VAPORIZATION RATE - 100 lb. Propane Cylinder (Approx) ... Vapor
Pressure at 0°F. 28 PSI. Vapor Pressure at 70° F. 122 PSI. Vapor
Pressure at 100° F. 190 PSI ...
================================================== ====================

So -- you can see that the pressure is very sensitive to the
temperature, and at the boiling point of water it won't go over 190 PSI.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2009-03-09, PaulS wrote:

On Mar 9, 5:14 pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:

wrote in message

...
On Mar 9, 2:05 pm, PaulS wrote:




Hello Steamers,

Can anyone suggest a way to supply a small model steam plant with
propane to fire it? The 3/16"-dia copper inlet tube for the gas to
the boiler has both an on/off valve, and a proportioning valve to
control the flow. My question relates to how to best feed the propane
from a small Bernzomatic-type cylinder to the tube. Will i need a gas
regulator? Can I adapt a Bernzomatic torch head in some way? How have
you seen it done?

for a regulator, just look around. Lots of scrap barbeques go to the dumps.

OK, so this is where I am confused. I need to somehow connect to the
propane cylinder's top , like how a torch head screws on it. Then I
need to pipe that connection to a gas regulator, say from a gas BBQ,
then a simple rubber tube will go from the regulator output to the
burner infeed tube.

It's the cylinder connection/regulator set-up I can't figure out how
to do yet.

I have an old Bernzomatic torch head. I suppose I can cut off the
torch's top at the brass tube after the screw cap/valve assembly part/
but before the torch metering jet. Now I'll have a cut-off piece of
brass pipe that screws on to a cylinder, but it will put out full
bottle pressure when I open the valve.


The pressure from a Bernzomatic bottle is quite low, and I,
personally, would keep the needle valve and simply unscrew the pipe from
the burner or from the head and screw in an adaptor to the hose.

The only reason for a regulator would be to keep the flow closer
to constant as you run low in the bottle. The needle valve should be
all you need for most things.


Then I suppose I can fit a
compression fitting, or even solder a brass pipe connection fitting,
to transition that to a pipe thread size that will feed into a gas
regulator's input.


Most regulators are going to require too much pressure
differential requirement to work well at propane pressures. Have you
ever wondered why the gas regulator on the entrance to your house is so
large in diameter? That is so it can be sensitive enough to regulate
the very low pressures in a natural gas line.


output side is easy I suppose, just a pipe reducer
to a rubber tube that slips onto the burner infeed tube.


Just do that after the needle valve and let the flow be set by
the needle valve -- into a burner which is always open.


Every BBQ regulator the same? How many PSI we talking in a typical
small torch propane cylinder?


A quick google search found this -- in the summary without even
following the link.

================================================== ====================
VAPORIZATION RATE - 100 lb. Propane Cylinder (Approx) ... Vapor
Pressure at 0°F. 28 PSI. Vapor Pressure at 70° F. 122 PSI. Vapor
Pressure at 100° F. 190 PSI ...
================================================== ====================

So -- you can see that the pressure is very sensitive to the
temperature, and at the boiling point of water it won't go over 190 PSI.

Enjoy,
DoN.


IIRC the boiling point of water is 212F or 100C and the figures above
are given in F so no where near the boiling point of water..

I have an old bernzomatic torch tip that screws onto the disposable propane
tank (must be 30 years old, at least). I unscrew the tip and remove the
metering jet and then push on a section of surgical latex tubing (any kind
of hose would probably wor, not even a clamp on the hose). Now I connect to
an equally old bunsen burner and control the flame with the torch's needle
valve. Works for making wax patterns to cast gold crowns!

Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea

Thank you everyone, I've learned a lot!

From the inputs here, and my own research, I now have a simple plan.

I will not use a regulator. The brass touch heads are already
regulated it seems.
The torch head on the old type I've got unscrew at the air holes, so
I'll just hook up a rubber tube directly to that somehow. I mic'ed
the threads there, they look like a 7/16 - 28 UNEF, or even a 32?
Whatever, I'll be able to make some type of connection there, even if
it's just a hose clamp.

With luck I'll be fireing the old hand-grenade up this weekend. Will
report back here if it works or not. Will also take some pics if there
is any interest.

Thanks again,
PaulS

On 2009-03-09, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Propane camping stoves, e.g., Coleman, use the 14 oz propane cylinders.
The same as torches. These stoves have a regulator built in to the
propane "head". And a nipple on the output to attach a hose to.

The camping stove which I have only has the needle valve in the
"head" -- no real regulator. But yes, a camping stove would be a good
source for the head.

Propane is stored as a liquid. The vapor pressure at room temperature
is around 100psi. With a built in regulator, the tank psi would be a
non issue. The output pressure is a few inches of water. I.e.,
insignificant.

Just as in natural gas feed inside the home.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2009-03-10, PaulS wrote:
Thank you everyone, I've learned a lot!

From the inputs here, and my own research, I now have a simple plan.

I will not use a regulator. The brass touch heads are already
regulated it seems.
The torch head on the old type I've got unscrew at the air holes, so
I'll just hook up a rubber tube directly to that somehow. I mic'ed
the threads there, they look like a 7/16 - 28 UNEF, or even a 32?
Whatever, I'll be able to make some type of connection there, even if
it's just a hose clamp.

With luck I'll be fireing the old hand-grenade up this weekend. Will
report back here if it works or not. Will also take some pics if there
is any interest.

Speaking of a "hand grenade" -- have you hydro tested the boiler
to make sure that it can handle the pressure after all those years of
sitting unused? A hydro test involves filling it *totally* with water,
no trapped air, sealing it, and pumping in just a bit more water while
watching the pressure gauge. Take it up to 1.5 times the working
pressure (determined by the safety relief valve prior to locking it
down or replacing with a plug), and looking for any leaks anywhere. If
there is a failure in the boiler tank under these conditions, it may be
a split seam or a squirt of water. If filled with steam, or filled with
compressed air to the same pressure, you *do* have a hand grenade which
could do significant damage.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2009-03-10, David Billington wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

A quick google search found this -- in the summary without even
following the link.

================================================== ====================
VAPORIZATION RATE - 100 lb. Propane Cylinder (Approx) ... Vapor
Pressure at 0°F. 28 PSI. Vapor Pressure at 70° F. 122 PSI. Vapor
Pressure at 100° F. 190 PSI ...
================================================== ====================

So -- you can see that the pressure is very sensitive to the
temperature, and at the boiling point of water it won't go over 190 PSI.

[ ... ]

IIRC the boiling point of water is 212F or 100C and the figures above
are given in F so no where near the boiling point of water..

You're right. I was confused by the way the degrees symbol was
printing, seeing it as 100\260F in the editor, and interpreting it as
something like 100C/260F (and assuming that there was a mistake in the
conversion.

The degrees symbol show up properly in the web page, and in my
newsreader, but not in the editor -- another of those extended ASCII
characters which don't show the same on all systems.

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---