Aquired a free 6cft fridge/freezer. Nice one, black with SS door. It
ran, but the thermal cutout tripped after 10 sec. Low charge
indicated. I have an R12 guage set I used to retro some R12 cars to
134. Also, some cut R12 hose pieces.
I cut off the charge pipe crimp on the compressor, and hose clamped
the cut open end of an R12 hose to it. pumped it down to 29". It held.
The compressor spec says 2.3 OZ R134. No way to measure the added
charge. I found it was extremely sensitive to charge level. Slightly
low, and the thermal would trip after about 5 min. Slightly high, same
thing. I resolved it by overcharging slightly, and bleeding off a
little at a time until the compressor ran constantly with the door
open, and the condenser stopped gurgling.. About 1-2 psi in the charge
pipe while running. Crimped the pipe ahead of the hose connection,
removed the hose and soldered the end.
Works like new.
JR
Dweller in the cellar
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 18:08:40 -0800, JR North
wrote:

I resolved it by overcharging slightly, and bleeding off a
little at a time until the compressor ran constantly with the door


You doomed the entire planet with your release of CFCs!!!!


at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

JR North wrote:

Slightly
low, and the thermal would trip after about 5 min. Slightly high, same
thing. I resolved it by overcharging slightly, and bleeding off a
little at a time until the compressor ran constantly with the door
open, and the condenser stopped gurgling.

Please turn yourself in at your local office of the ELF. Ecoterrorist!

Wes

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 01:31:43 -0500, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

JR North wrote:

Slightly
low, and the thermal would trip after about 5 min. Slightly high, same
thing. I resolved it by overcharging slightly, and bleeding off a
little at a time until the compressor ran constantly with the door
open, and the condenser stopped gurgling.

Please turn yourself in at your local office of the ELF. Ecoterrorist!

Electron Liberation Front?

================================================== ==========
Help Save the Endangered Plumb Bobs From Becoming Extinct!

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 01:31:43 -0500, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

JR North wrote:

Slightly
low, and the thermal would trip after about 5 min. Slightly high, same
thing. I resolved it by overcharging slightly, and bleeding off a
little at a time until the compressor ran constantly with the door
open, and the condenser stopped gurgling.

Please turn yourself in at your local office of the ELF. Ecoterrorist!

Electron Liberation Front?

Nah, Earth Liberation Front, the arseclowns that burn down ski resorts to save the
enviroment.


Wes

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 21:40:25 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 18:08:40 -0800, JR North
wrote:

I resolved it by overcharging slightly, and bleeding off a
little at a time until the compressor ran constantly with the door


You doomed the entire planet with your release of CFCs!!!!

No he didn't - R-134 is not R-12.

But if you are going to all the trouble of grabbing a torch, you
braze in permanent access fittings so you can do it again in a few
years. If it's got a slow leak you'll probably have to do it again
every 5 to 10 years.

Then you go over it really carefully with a leak sniffer to see if
you can find the super slow leak that caused it to come up empty on
you. If it's a less than perfect joint you can rebraze...

-- Bruce --

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 08:49:09 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 21:40:25 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 18:08:40 -0800, JR North
wrote:

I resolved it by overcharging slightly, and bleeding off a
little at a time until the compressor ran constantly with the door


You doomed the entire planet with your release of CFCs!!!!

No he didn't - R-134 is not R-12.

But its a CFC!! SCREEEECH!!

But if you are going to all the trouble of grabbing a torch, you
braze in permanent access fittings so you can do it again in a few
years. If it's got a slow leak you'll probably have to do it again
every 5 to 10 years.

Then you go over it really carefully with a leak sniffer to see if
you can find the super slow leak that caused it to come up empty on
you. If it's a less than perfect joint you can rebraze...

-- Bruce --

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

You doomed the entire planet with your release of CFCs!!!!

No he didn't - R-134 is not R-12.

But its a CFC!! SCREEEECH!!

No, it's an HFC, no chlorine, zero ozone depletion potential but substantial
global warming potential so it too will eventually be phased out (Europe is
working on selecting a replacement now). Course the R12 that leaked out
from the original fill is a CFC but we were ignoring what happened before
his repair, right?

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames

JR didn't say he used R12, and he didn't say the freezer had R12 in it
originally.

He said he had an R12 guage set, and stated that the data plate on the
freezer specified 2.3 oz (of) R134.

He saved one from the landfill, or being scrapped, then recycled into cheap
products from China.

Congrats, keep up the good work.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"JR North" wrote in message
...
Aquired a free 6cft fridge/freezer. Nice one, black with SS door. It
ran, but the thermal cutout tripped after 10 sec. Low charge
indicated. I have an R12 guage set I used to retro some R12 cars to
134. Also, some cut R12 hose pieces.
I cut off the charge pipe crimp on the compressor, and hose clamped
the cut open end of an R12 hose to it. pumped it down to 29". It held.
The compressor spec says 2.3 OZ R134. No way to measure the added
charge. I found it was extremely sensitive to charge level. Slightly
low, and the thermal would trip after about 5 min. Slightly high, same
thing. I resolved it by overcharging slightly, and bleeding off a
little at a time until the compressor ran constantly with the door
open, and the condenser stopped gurgling.. About 1-2 psi in the charge
pipe while running. Crimped the pipe ahead of the hose connection,
removed the hose and soldered the end.
Works like new.
JR
Dweller in the cellar
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

"Wild_Bill" wrote:

He saved one from the landfill, or being scrapped, then recycled into cheap
products from China.

Congrats, keep up the good work.

We were just tweeking him. Venting R134a is subject to a $25,000 maximum fine per day. A
bit draconian since R134a was supposed to save us from the horible dangers of R12.

JR, you do know I was funning ya? Bravo Zulu on the diy repair.

Wes

Right. Thank you. Not much comprehension from the others. Gee, a whole
1/8 OZ. I should prolly get in the bathtub and open my wrists. BTW,
ecoevangelists, how much CFCs or HFCs did you release the last time
you or SWMBO wrecked your car?
JR
Dweller in the cellar

On Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:47:49 -0400, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

JR didn't say he used R12, and he didn't say the freezer had R12 in it
originally.

He said he had an R12 guage set, and stated that the data plate on the
freezer specified 2.3 oz (of) R134.

He saved one from the landfill, or being scrapped, then recycled into cheap
products from China.

Congrats, keep up the good work.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:55:12 -0800, JR North
wrote:

Right. Thank you. Not much comprehension from the others. Gee, a whole
1/8 OZ. I should prolly get in the bathtub and open my wrists. BTW,
ecoevangelists, how much CFCs or HFCs did you release the last time
you or SWMBO wrecked your car?
JR
Dweller in the cellar


None, bloody thing didn't have AC :-(

Makes you wonder about all of the piles of Fridges one sees at the
tip/recycling center though...


Mark Rand
RTFM

I wasn't aware of fines for releasing R134a, Wes, but I'd read about the
fines for R12 before.

I've been somewhat outraged by the discontinued/removal of R12, but then
allow the sale of R134a to anyone with $4-6 in their hand.
I doubt that a customer even needs to be at least 18. The crap is sold
almost everywhere.

It's gotta make me wonder how many million cans of R134a are sold every year
just in the US, to consumers that will misuse the stuff, possibly many
times, to try to avoid having their car systems properly repaired/serviced
by a qualified AC tech.

It's as if those in charge are implying that R134a is actually good for the
atmosphere.. maybe it cleans the air and actually makes trees greener!

FWIW
I had some cans of Memorex AirDuster duster gas that state on the label:
Chemical Components: Difluoroethane

Propellant made in China
Assembled in USA

These duster products are a very popular retail product, too. They're sold
at many places that sell office supplies, but also at that Shack store, and
a large number of general retailers.

Lip service: we are very committed to "saving the earth". But then, we won't
sacrifice the instant gratification, push-button miracle aerosol produts
that make our lazy lives richer by not having to do any actual work
(cleaning a keyboard with a brush or vacuum cleaner).

I like the convenience of air dusters for small delicate assemblies, but I
might only use 1 or 2 cans per year.

It seems to me that there hasn't been any reduction in the overall numbers
of, or different varieties of aerosol products in recent years, and I
wouldn't be surprised if the numbers have actually increased (butane and
propane have become common propellants, but there seem to be many others).

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Wild_Bill" wrote:

He saved one from the landfill, or being scrapped, then recycled into
cheap
products from China.

Congrats, keep up the good work.

We were just tweeking him. Venting R134a is subject to a $25,000 maximum
fine per day. A
bit draconian since R134a was supposed to save us from the horible dangers
of R12.

JR, you do know I was funning ya? Bravo Zulu on the diy repair.

Wes

"Wild_Bill" wrote:

I wasn't aware of fines for releasing R134a, Wes, but I'd read about the
fines for R12 before.

I was a bit shocked when I read about them myself. I thought all the pain of changing was
for a environmentally safe substitute.

I've been somewhat outraged by the discontinued/removal of R12, but then
allow the sale of R134a to anyone with $4-6 in their hand.
I doubt that a customer even needs to be at least 18. The crap is sold
almost everywhere.

I've got a 30# tank of R134a, only thing the retailer cared about was if my debit card
would clear.


It's gotta make me wonder how many million cans of R134a are sold every year
just in the US, to consumers that will misuse the stuff, possibly many
times, to try to avoid having their car systems properly repaired/serviced
by a qualified AC tech.

Generally they put some in and see if the a/c works. If it works long enough, they put
more in periodically.


It's as if those in charge are implying that R134a is actually good for the
atmosphere.. maybe it cleans the air and actually makes trees greener!

Right. Likely Dow Corning had a patent and the right pockets were lined.

FWIW
I had some cans of Memorex AirDuster duster gas that state on the label:
Chemical Components: Difluoroethane

Propellant made in China
Assembled in USA

These duster products are a very popular retail product, too. They're sold
at many places that sell office supplies, but also at that Shack store, and
a large number of general retailers.

Lip service: we are very committed to "saving the earth". But then, we won't
sacrifice the instant gratification, push-button miracle aerosol produts
that make our lazy lives richer by not having to do any actual work
(cleaning a keyboard with a brush or vacuum cleaner).

I like the convenience of air dusters for small delicate assemblies, but I
might only use 1 or 2 cans per year.

It seems to me that there hasn't been any reduction in the overall numbers
of, or different varieties of aerosol products in recent years, and I
wouldn't be surprised if the numbers have actually increased (butane and
propane have become common propellants, but there seem to be many others).

I know they changed out the mix in areosols a long time back. Can't remember what it was
or what is is now. CO2 seems like it would good for air dusters, I think it goes liquid at
75 psi.

Wes




--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Wild_Bill" wrote:

I wasn't aware of fines for releasing R134a, Wes, but I'd read about the
fines for R12 before.

I was a bit shocked when I read about them myself. I thought all the pain
of changing was
for a environmentally safe substitute.

I've been somewhat outraged by the discontinued/removal of R12, but then
allow the sale of R134a to anyone with $4-6 in their hand.
I doubt that a customer even needs to be at least 18. The crap is sold
almost everywhere.

I've got a 30# tank of R134a, only thing the retailer cared about was if
my debit card
would clear.


It's gotta make me wonder how many million cans of R134a are sold every
year
just in the US, to consumers that will misuse the stuff, possibly many
times, to try to avoid having their car systems properly repaired/serviced
by a qualified AC tech.

Generally they put some in and see if the a/c works. If it works long
enough, they put
more in periodically.


It's as if those in charge are implying that R134a is actually good for
the
atmosphere.. maybe it cleans the air and actually makes trees greener!

Right. Likely Dow Corning had a patent and the right pockets were lined.

g Such a cynic.

R12 knocked holes in the ozone. They've gotten smaller since the stuff was
outlawed in '92 or so.

R134a is benign to ozone. However, it's a greenhouse gas -- something like
12,000 times more powerful in that regard than CO2. It is outlawed in the EU
starting, IIRC, in 2011.

There's another replacement that's supposed to be problem-free. We'll be
hearing about it soon.

Meantime, expect Stirling refrigeration engines to come on the market in a
few years for consumer applications. They use air or helium.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress writes:

R12 knocked holes in the ozone. They've gotten smaller since the stuff
was outlawed in '92 or so.

I guess you haven't been around the third world where they produce and vent
far more R12 today than we ever did.

I was stunned on a plant trip to Belize. R12 is dirt cheap. They were
casually using it in ways that are literally felony crimes here in the USA.

Environmentalism: expensive, shoddy, deadly [Schwartz].

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
.. .
Ed Huntress writes:

R12 knocked holes in the ozone. They've gotten smaller since the stuff
was outlawed in '92 or so.

I guess you haven't been around the third world where they produce and
vent
far more R12 today than we ever did.

Nope, I haven't. It's a violation of law in about 130 countries to fill a
refrigeration system with it, and its production has been banned or nearly
so in most of those countries. So it's hard to judge how much actually is
being "produced and vented" in third-world countries.


I was stunned on a plant trip to Belize. R12 is dirt cheap. They were
casually using it in ways that are literally felony crimes here in the
USA.

Environmentalism: expensive, shoddy, deadly [Schwartz].

Well, again, it's hard to put a number on it. Some international agencies
that research it say that it's a fraction of what it once was. Keep in mind
that it was being put into cars (and leaking out) to the tune of something
like 10 million units per year, not to mention the other legal uses before
1994.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress writes:

It's a violation of law in about 130 countries ...

Some 130 that don't matter, perhaps. Still legal and widely used in China,
India, Mexico, and Russia, which is to say, most of the world. Any
assertion that usage has declined is against supposition and utterly
unknowable.

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:32:22 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Ed Huntress writes:

It's a violation of law in about 130 countries ...

Some 130 that don't matter, perhaps. Still legal and widely used in China,
India, Mexico, and Russia, which is to say, most of the world. Any
assertion that usage has declined is against supposition and utterly
unknowable.

Which is frustrating to those of us who had to stop using it. All
we've accomplished so far is to free up more for the third world.

Not a real good way to get us to accept their next round of cutbacks
and taxes and price hikes.

-- Bruce --

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Ed Huntress writes:

It's a violation of law in about 130 countries ...

Some 130 that don't matter, perhaps. Still legal and widely used in
China,
India, Mexico, and Russia, which is to say, most of the world. Any
assertion that usage has declined is against supposition and utterly
unknowable.

Yeah, the 130 matter. NOAA's measurements show that CFC12 in the atmosphere
stopped its rise beginning in 1994, and actually started to reverse in 2005.

Assuming that volume is tied to usage, then your "supposition" appears to
have come out wrong.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress writes:

Assuming that volume is tied to usage, then your "supposition" appears
to have come out wrong.

I would say it proves that the "ban" served to cost the 1st world while
being ignored in the 3rd, since wide R12 usage obviously continued if
rising levels only recently abated, given that R134a has long been
displacing R12 for economic rather than political reasons. As does the
"ozone hole" malarkey, which even if admitted doesn't correlate as the
government diktat asserted.

The R12 ban was very effective at stopping R12 use in the 1st world. It
had no effect on the 3rd, except derivately and in delay, due to the
disappearance of R12-using machines imported by the 3rd from the 1st.

Same deal with tobacco: uncool and declining in the 1st world, gaining in
the 3rd.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Ed Huntress writes:

Assuming that volume is tied to usage, then your "supposition" appears
to have come out wrong.

I would say it proves that the "ban" served to cost the 1st world while
being ignored in the 3rd, since wide R12 usage obviously continued if
rising levels only recently abated, given that R134a has long been
displacing R12 for economic rather than political reasons. As does the
"ozone hole" malarkey, which even if admitted doesn't correlate as the
government diktat asserted.

The R12 ban was very effective at stopping R12 use in the 1st world. It
had no effect on the 3rd, except derivately and in delay, due to the
disappearance of R12-using machines imported by the 3rd from the 1st.

Same deal with tobacco: uncool and declining in the 1st world, gaining in
the 3rd.

My God, Richard, you really are over the top.

Enjoy your fantasies.

plonk

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress writes:

Enjoy your fantasies.

I do.

Your liberal religion amounts to faith in the goodness of human nature and
in the government as a forceful actor of that humanity. When the opposite
reality results, a true believer counts it as "fantasy".

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
.. .
Ed Huntress writes:

R12 knocked holes in the ozone. They've gotten smaller since the stuff
was outlawed in '92 or so.

I guess you haven't been around the third world where they produce and
vent
far more R12 today than we ever did.

Nope, I haven't. It's a violation of law in about 130 countries to fill a
refrigeration system with it, and its production has been banned or nearly
so in most of those countries. So it's hard to judge how much actually is
being "produced and vented" in third-world countries.


I was stunned on a plant trip to Belize. R12 is dirt cheap. They were
casually using it in ways that are literally felony crimes here in the
USA.

Environmentalism: expensive, shoddy, deadly [Schwartz].

Well, again, it's hard to put a number on it. Some international agencies
that research it say that it's a fraction of what it once was. Keep in
mind that it was being put into cars (and leaking out) to the tune of
something like 10 million units per year, not to mention the other legal
uses before 1994.

--
Ed Huntress


Until the Montreal Convention came into effect most of the aerosols in the
world were powered by Freon 12 or a Freon 12/22 mixture.
I was the engineering manager of one small plant that used about 10 tonnes
of the stuff every week. When a spray pack was empty it was thrown away.
Eventually it would be crushed or corrode and the propellant would enter the
atmosphere. The small amount that ordinary domestic refrigeration units use
must be insignificant by comarison.
Another company that I worked for in the 1970 had a large refrigeration
plant. One Monday morning we had a complaint that the target temperature
wasn't being reached. Investigation showed that we had lost 15 tonnes of
Freon 22. At that time it cost about $3.50 a kilo! At the same time ammonia
refrigerant cost about $.50 a kilo. After that, I became a devout believer
in installing only ammonia based refrigeration plant for anything but small
packaged refigeration.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Ed Huntress writes:

It's a violation of law in about 130 countries ...

Some 130 that don't matter, perhaps. Still legal and widely used in
China,
India, Mexico, and Russia, which is to say, most of the world. Any
assertion that usage has declined is against supposition and utterly
unknowable.

Yeah, the 130 matter. NOAA's measurements show that CFC12 in the
atmosphere stopped its rise beginning in 1994, and actually started to
reverse in 2005.

Assuming that volume is tied to usage, then your "supposition" appears to
have come out wrong.

--
Ed Huntress

Most of he third world inhabitants can't afford anything that uses CFC's
and it's illegal to use in the rest of the world so it does matter.

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:01:40 +1100, "Grumpy"
wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
.. .
Ed Huntress wrote:

R12 knocked holes in the ozone. They've gotten smaller since the stuff
was outlawed in '92 or so.

I guess you haven't been around the third world where they produce and
vent
far more R12 today than we ever did.

Nope, I haven't. It's a violation of law in about 130 countries to fill a
refrigeration system with it, and its production has been banned or nearly
so in most of those countries. So it's hard to judge how much actually is
being "produced and vented" in third-world countries.


I was stunned on a plant trip to Belize. R12 is dirt cheap. They were
casually using it in ways that are literally felony crimes here in the
USA.

Environmentalism: expensive, shoddy, deadly [Schwartz].

Well, again, it's hard to put a number on it. Some international agencies
that research it say that it's a fraction of what it once was. Keep in
mind that it was being put into cars (and leaking out) to the tune of
something like 10 million units per year, not to mention the other legal
uses before 1994.

Until the Montreal Convention came into effect most of the aerosols in the
world were powered by Freon 12 or a Freon 12/22 mixture.
I was the engineering manager of one small plant that used about 10 tonnes
of the stuff every week. When a spray pack was empty it was thrown away.
Eventually it would be crushed or corrode and the propellant would enter the
atmosphere. The small amount that ordinary domestic refrigeration units use
must be insignificant by comarison.

Substitiuting other things for a CFC propellant is a lot easier than
retrofitting refrigeration equipment. And most propellants are
intented to be a total atmospheric loss, so they add up fast in the
'tons released to atmosphere' column.

Another company that I worked for in the 1970 had a large refrigeration
plant. One Monday morning we had a complaint that the target temperature
wasn't being reached. Investigation showed that we had lost 15 tonnes of
Freon 22. At that time it cost about $3.50 a kilo! At the same time ammonia
refrigerant cost about $.50 a kilo. After that, I became a devout believer
in installing only ammonia based refrigeration plant for anything but small
packaged refigeration.

All well and good, but you REALLY don't want to be around an Ammonia
refrigeration system in a big leak. I like my lungs, and they are
kinda important to my continued everyday living...

Los Angeles has several industrial plants with Ammonia
refrigeration, notably the Baskin Robbins ice cream plant and several
ice skationg rinks. And they occasionally have to evacuate for a
block or more perimeter when a leak happens. It's not something that
should be encouraged if you have a better alternative.

Converting CFC refrigeration over to HFC based systems are fine IF
they take proper precautions - you have to have permnanent leak
detection and a comprehensive plant maintenance program to catch it at
the small leaks stage.

And you don't build up 100 - 250 - 500 tons capacity in a single
machine if at all possible, because that makes the potential for a
huge dump if a pipe cracks...

-- Bruce --

Grumpy writes:

Most of he third world inhabitants can't afford anything that uses CFC's
...

You'd best visit any third-world city these days. Every Stalineque high-
rise slum building is warted over with mini-splits on every apartment.

What the Chinese middle-class aspired to own, over time:

1980s: wris****ch, bicycle
1990s: washing machine, television
2000s: automobile, air conditioning

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:01:40 +1100, "Grumpy"
wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
.. .
Ed Huntress wrote:

R12 knocked holes in the ozone. They've gotten smaller since the stuff
was outlawed in '92 or so.

I guess you haven't been around the third world where they produce and
vent
far more R12 today than we ever did.

Nope, I haven't. It's a violation of law in about 130 countries to fill
a
refrigeration system with it, and its production has been banned or
nearly
so in most of those countries. So it's hard to judge how much actually
is
being "produced and vented" in third-world countries.


I was stunned on a plant trip to Belize. R12 is dirt cheap. They were
casually using it in ways that are literally felony crimes here in the
USA.

Environmentalism: expensive, shoddy, deadly [Schwartz].

Well, again, it's hard to put a number on it. Some international
agencies
that research it say that it's a fraction of what it once was. Keep in
mind that it was being put into cars (and leaking out) to the tune of
something like 10 million units per year, not to mention the other legal
uses before 1994.

Until the Montreal Convention came into effect most of the aerosols in the
world were powered by Freon 12 or a Freon 12/22 mixture.
I was the engineering manager of one small plant that used about 10
tonnes
of the stuff every week. When a spray pack was empty it was thrown away.
Eventually it would be crushed or corrode and the propellant would enter
the
atmosphere. The small amount that ordinary domestic refrigeration units
use
must be insignificant by comarison.

Substitiuting other things for a CFC propellant is a lot easier than
retrofitting refrigeration equipment. And most propellants are
intented to be a total atmospheric loss, so they add up fast in the
'tons released to atmosphere' column.

Not in our case. As the CFC propellants were non-flamable, there was not
flame proof equipment in either the storage or packaging area. To comply
with local regulations would have cost about a million or so. The plant was
shut down and production was shifted to Indonesia, where it was done in a
building with only a roof and no walls. Veltilation was not a problem and
niether were any regulations.




Another company that I worked for in the 1970 had a large refrigeration
plant. One Monday morning we had a complaint that the target temperature
wasn't being reached. Investigation showed that we had lost 15 tonnes of
Freon 22. At that time it cost about $3.50 a kilo! At the same time
ammonia
refrigerant cost about $.50 a kilo. After that, I became a devout believer
in installing only ammonia based refrigeration plant for anything but
small
packaged refigeration.

All well and good, but you REALLY don't want to be around an Ammonia
refrigeration system in a big leak. I like my lungs, and they are
kinda important to my continued everyday living...


If an ammonia plant is properly maintained, majour leaks are unlikely.
Minor leaks are not a problem as the ammonia is so irritating that any minor
leak is immedialty detected. You simply can not stay in an area where the
concentration of ammonia is high enough to cause you physical harm, The
irritation to you nose and eyes is you annoying and painful that you will be
driven out very quickly. In addition ammonia vapour is lighter than air and
will diperse quickly. Freons, on the other hand, are heavy and will pool in
basements and underfloor pipe tunnels. You may not even be aware of the fact
that you are being deprived of oxygen until you collapse.

Of course, if someone drives a fork lift into a 4" ammonia liquid
line............................




Los Angeles has several industrial plants with Ammonia
refrigeration, notably the Baskin Robbins ice cream plant and several
ice skationg rinks. And they occasionally have to evacuate for a
block or more perimeter when a leak happens. It's not something that
should be encouraged if you have a better alternative.

Converting CFC refrigeration over to HFC based systems are fine IF
they take proper precautions - you have to have permnanent leak
detection and a comprehensive plant maintenance program to catch it at
the small leaks stage.

And you don't build up 100 - 250 - 500 tons capacity in a single
machine if at all possible, because that makes the potential for a
huge dump if a pipe cracks...

-- Bruce --

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Grumpy writes:

Most of he third world inhabitants can't afford anything that uses CFC's
...

You'd best visit any third-world city these days. Every Stalineque high-
rise slum building is warted over with mini-splits on every apartment.

You vist higher class slums that I do. Delhi has miles of slums without
even electricity


What the Chinese middle-class aspired to own, over time:

1980s: wris****ch, bicycle
1990s: washing machine, television
2000s: automobile, air conditioning

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 20:04:49 GMT, "Carl Ijames" wrote:

You doomed the entire planet with your release of CFCs!!!!

No he didn't - R-134 is not R-12.

But its a CFC!! SCREEEECH!!

No, it's an HFC, no chlorine, zero ozone depletion potential but
substantial
global warming potential so it too will eventually be phased out (Europe
is
working on selecting a replacement now).

Lets just hope that eventually is a long long time, because it's a
very practical refrigerant. They keep coming up with exotic stuff
that doesn't do the job worth a darn. And costs a fortune.

And let's hope that we drive the Greenies into the ocean before they
totally wreck the world and force us back to the Stone Age. We should
be doing things Cleaner and Greener because "It's the right thing to
do" for the environment and when it also makes financial sense, not
because we are forced into it at gunpoint.

That's one of the reasons I got out of HVAC/Refrigeration - you
wanna work in that field without chancing a huge fine _ from the
EPA, you have to spend thousands on an electronic refrigerant assay
tester just to see exactly what is inside the system (or the bottle)
before you touch it. One for every field worker. Then spend half of
your time in recordkeeping of what you have touched, and where exactly
it went.

Create a recovery tank or system full of "Mixed Waste" and it can
cost you thousands of bucks for a remediation firm to incinerate the
offending gases. Even if some other dolt mislabeled and mixed it, and
you were just called in to do a normal service.

Course the
R12 that leaked out
from the original fill is a CFC but we were ignoring what happened before
his repair, right?

And that's where you went off the rails. The Original Message said
it took R-134 factory fill. The OP just popped it open and added more.

Haven't got one, but FWIH the trick to charging one is having an
ultrasonic "Electronic Sight Glass" so you can see the liquid level in
the line right before the expansion capilary.

That's the problem with fractional HP capilary systems - 2 ounces of
refrigerant is empty, 2 1/2 just right, and 3 overfull and won't work.
They really need to read up on Liquid Receivers and Thermal Expansion
Valves so they'll work over a far broader range of charge.

-- Bruce --


Ammonia & propane forever!

"Grumpy" wrote in message
. au...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 20:04:49 GMT, "Carl Ijames" wrote:

You doomed the entire planet with your release of CFCs!!!!

No he didn't - R-134 is not R-12.

But its a CFC!! SCREEEECH!!

No, it's an HFC, no chlorine, zero ozone depletion potential but
substantial
global warming potential so it too will eventually be phased out (Europe
is
working on selecting a replacement now).

Lets just hope that eventually is a long long time, because it's a
very practical refrigerant. They keep coming up with exotic stuff
that doesn't do the job worth a darn. And costs a fortune.

And let's hope that we drive the Greenies into the ocean before they
totally wreck the world and force us back to the Stone Age. We should
be doing things Cleaner and Greener because "It's the right thing to
do" for the environment and when it also makes financial sense, not
because we are forced into it at gunpoint.

That's one of the reasons I got out of HVAC/Refrigeration - you
wanna work in that field without chancing a huge fine _ from the
EPA, you have to spend thousands on an electronic refrigerant assay
tester just to see exactly what is inside the system (or the bottle)
before you touch it. One for every field worker. Then spend half of
your time in recordkeeping of what you have touched, and where exactly
it went.

Create a recovery tank or system full of "Mixed Waste" and it can
cost you thousands of bucks for a remediation firm to incinerate the
offending gases. Even if some other dolt mislabeled and mixed it, and
you were just called in to do a normal service.

Course the
R12 that leaked out
from the original fill is a CFC but we were ignoring what happened before
his repair, right?

And that's where you went off the rails. The Original Message said
it took R-134 factory fill. The OP just popped it open and added more.

Haven't got one, but FWIH the trick to charging one is having an
ultrasonic "Electronic Sight Glass" so you can see the liquid level in
the line right before the expansion capilary.

That's the problem with fractional HP capilary systems - 2 ounces of
refrigerant is empty, 2 1/2 just right, and 3 overfull and won't work.
They really need to read up on Liquid Receivers and Thermal Expansion
Valves so they'll work over a far broader range of charge.

-- Bruce --


Ammonia & propane forever!

I personally prefer sulfur dioxide!

Don Young