Hi folks:
I am trying to make a skeg-mount rudder for a lobsterboat.
the rudder is made from a 1/4" thick piece of 316 stainless steel.
The rudder stock (shaft) is 1-1/4" diameter 316 stainless steel rod,
cut into two pieces and slotted to accept the rudder plate which is
then welded in. The two pieces of rudderstock are arranged so that
the lower one is held in a bearing (on the skeg for all you boat
folks), and the upper one penetrates the bottom of the boat through a
packing gland and has a keyway to attach the tiller.

My question is how do I cut the slots? they need to be through the
round stock and maybe 6 inches along the long axis of the rod. (2
pieces, top and bottom)

I have access to a Bridgeport mill with unknown tooling, so I will
have to buy a cutter for the job.
My plan is using something similar to a keyway cutter and attacking
the work from each side. Maybe leaving the very end "un-slotted" to
remain rigid before hacksawing out the last bit?

Plan B may be an 1/4" endmill attacking from the top? although this
seems like it would be too flexy for a 1-1/4" cut.

As you can probably tell, I am not a machinist. Although I do read
RCM regularly. I also understand 316 stainless is not easy to work
with.

I would love to hear what you folks think of my plan,including lubes,
speeds, what the cutter is called at Enco or wherever.

Thanks,
Andy
Lynn, MA

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:25:43 -0800 (PST), andy
wrote:

Hi folks:
I am trying to make a skeg-mount rudder for a lobsterboat.
the rudder is made from a 1/4" thick piece of 316 stainless steel.
The rudder stock (shaft) is 1-1/4" diameter 316 stainless steel rod,
cut into two pieces and slotted to accept the rudder plate which is
then welded in.

It'd be much easier to cut rectangular slots in the rudder to accept
the ends of the stub shafts, and it seems to me would accomplish
exactly the same thing. I wouldn't consider slotting the shafts unless
it's absolutely necessary.

--
Ned Simmons

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:25:43 -0800 (PST), andy
wrote:

Hi folks:
I am trying to make a skeg-mount rudder for a lobsterboat.
the rudder is made from a 1/4" thick piece of 316 stainless steel.
The rudder stock (shaft) is 1-1/4" diameter 316 stainless steel rod,
cut into two pieces and slotted to accept the rudder plate which is
then welded in. The two pieces of rudderstock are arranged so that
the lower one is held in a bearing (on the skeg for all you boat
folks), and the upper one penetrates the bottom of the boat through a
packing gland and has a keyway to attach the tiller.

My question is how do I cut the slots? they need to be through the
round stock and maybe 6 inches along the long axis of the rod. (2
pieces, top and bottom)

I have access to a Bridgeport mill with unknown tooling, so I will
have to buy a cutter for the job.
My plan is using something similar to a keyway cutter and attacking
the work from each side. Maybe leaving the very end "un-slotted" to
remain rigid before hacksawing out the last bit?

Plan B may be an 1/4" endmill attacking from the top? although this
seems like it would be too flexy for a 1-1/4" cut.

As you can probably tell, I am not a machinist. Although I do read
RCM regularly. I also understand 316 stainless is not easy to work
with.

I would love to hear what you folks think of my plan,including lubes,
speeds, what the cutter is called at Enco or wherever.

Thanks,
Andy
Lynn, MA


You could equally well cut a slot in the rudder blade to accept the
rudder stock which can be done easily with a cutting torch, a plasma
cutter or a 4 inch grinder. You will probably have to tack the upper
and lower rudder stock to a piece of angle or pipe to hold them in
alignment before you weld them to the blade, but you'd probably have
to do that anyway.

As far as strength goes I can't see much difference in the two designs
as if you put a nice fillet weld on both sides the welds will be as
strong as the 1/4" plate.

As far as stainless being hard to work with, it work hardens easily.
Use a slow cutting speed and fairly heavy feed and you can cut it
almost as easily as carbon steel (not the "almost" :-)


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:25:43 -0800 (PST), andy
wrote:

Hi folks:
I am trying to make a skeg-mount rudder for a lobsterboat.
the rudder is made from a 1/4" thick piece of 316 stainless steel.
The rudder stock (shaft) is 1-1/4" diameter 316 stainless steel rod,
cut into two pieces and slotted to accept the rudder plate which is
then welded in. The two pieces of rudderstock are arranged so that
the lower one is held in a bearing (on the skeg for all you boat
folks), and the upper one penetrates the bottom of the boat through a
packing gland and has a keyway to attach the tiller.

My question is how do I cut the slots? they need to be through the
round stock and maybe 6 inches along the long axis of the rod. (2
pieces, top and bottom)

I have access to a Bridgeport mill with unknown tooling, so I will
have to buy a cutter for the job.
My plan is using something similar to a keyway cutter and attacking
the work from each side. Maybe leaving the very end "un-slotted" to
remain rigid before hacksawing out the last bit?

That should work just fine.


Plan B may be an 1/4" endmill attacking from the top? although this
seems like it would be too flexy for a 1-1/4" cut.

Nah... you'll be fine. I would drill, say, 7/32" holes all the way
through the bar. Use a 2-flue end mill.


As you can probably tell, I am not a machinist. Although I do read
RCM regularly. I also understand 316 stainless is not easy to work
with.

I would love to hear what you folks think of my plan,including lubes,
speeds, what the cutter is called at Enco or wherever.

Plenty (and I mean PLENTY) of heavy duty synthetic (or old sulfurized
oil) lube would be my pick. (problem is.... you're looking at about
$30 for a 1 gallon bottle and about $110 for 5 gals, if the gal isn't
available) Stainless steels conduct heat poorly, therefore the heat
will be concentrated in the cutter. Lots of cutting fluid will counter
this effect. Take light cuts, but never let the cutter just ride in
the cut without cutting. (Work hardening will be the inevitable
result.)


Thanks,
Andy
Lynn, MA

PS
Make sure all of this assembly is 316.... and that includes the rudder
and weld filler metal.
--

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noble thoughts in you, do not look for any other standard
to judge by: the work is good, the product of a master
craftsman." - Jean de la Bruyere (1645-1696)

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snip


I have access to a Bridgeport mill with unknown tooling, so I will
have to buy a cutter for the job.
My plan is using something similar to a keyway cutter and attacking
the work from each side. Maybe leaving the very end "un-slotted" to
remain rigid before hacksawing out the last bit?

Plan B may be an 1/4" endmill attacking from the top? although this
seems like it would be too flexy for a 1-1/4" cut.

As you can probably tell, I am not a machinist. Although I do read
RCM regularly. I also understand 316 stainless is not easy to work
with.


I've just been doing something similar, although with a different brand
mill - seems to me that a slitting saw would make short work of this job,
and a 1/4 inch saw is cheap (there are a bunch on ebay) - it will do it in
one pass. and end mill will break before you are done

Gene writes:

Plenty (and I mean PLENTY) of heavy duty synthetic (or old sulfurized
oil) lube would be my pick. (problem is.... you're looking at about
$30 for a 1 gallon bottle and about $110 for 5 gals, if the gal isn't
available)

You can get a quart or so bottle of sulfurized cutting oil at Home Depot,
where they thread galvanized steel plumbing pipe.

Bruce In Bangkok fired this volley in
:

You could equally well cut a slot in the rudder blade to accept the
rudder stock which can be done easily with a cutting torch, a plasma
cutter or a 4 inch grinder. You will probably have to tack the upper
and lower rudder stock to a piece of angle or pipe to hold them in
alignment before you weld them to the blade, but you'd probably have
to do that anyway.


I'd envision the job as a hybrid of the two: mill slots in the shaft
only about 1/4" deep. Cut a matching slot in the rudder. Slide the
two together (self-aligning), then weld.

LLoyd

On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 06:41:25 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok fired this volley in
:

You could equally well cut a slot in the rudder blade to accept the
rudder stock which can be done easily with a cutting torch, a plasma
cutter or a 4 inch grinder. You will probably have to tack the upper
and lower rudder stock to a piece of angle or pipe to hold them in
alignment before you weld them to the blade, but you'd probably have
to do that anyway.


I'd envision the job as a hybrid of the two: mill slots in the shaft
only about 1/4" deep. Cut a matching slot in the rudder. Slide the
two together (self-aligning), then weld.

LLoyd


You will still have to use some sort of strongback or do a lot of back
and forth welding to prevent warping as you are essentially welding on
the middle of a plate.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Dec 8, 6:52*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:25:43 -0800 (PST), andy

wrote:
Hi folks:
I am trying to make a skeg-mount rudder for a lobsterboat.
the rudder is made from a 1/4" thick piece of 316 stainless steel.
The rudder stock (shaft) is 1-1/4" diameter 316 stainless steel rod,
cut into two pieces and slotted to accept the rudder plate which is
then welded in. *

It'd be much easier to cut rectangular slots in the rudder to accept
the ends of the stub shafts, and it seems to me would accomplish
exactly the same thing. I wouldn't consider slotting the shafts unless
it's absolutely necessary.

--
Ned Simmons

Ned/Bruce:
Wow! I'm glad I asked. I wouldn't have thought of that approach.
I guess I was thinking (incorrectly) that you modify the less
expensive piece of stock to accomodate the more expensive.
Your way is certainly easier, and can be done with my own gear.

In my head, it would easier to line everything up using the slotted
shaft approach. But if it is 5x the work then the slotted plate
method is looking better and better.

Thanks for the help!
Andy

On Dec 9, 7:41*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Bruce In Bangkok fired this volley :

You could equally well cut a slot in the rudder blade to accept the
rudder stock which can be done easily with a cutting torch, a plasma
cutter or a 4 inch grinder. You will probably have to tack the upper
and lower rudder stock to a piece of angle or pipe to hold them in
alignment before you weld them to the blade, but you'd probably have
to do that anyway.

I'd envision the job as a hybrid of the two: *mill slots in the shaft
only about 1/4" deep. *Cut a matching slot in the rudder. *Slide the
two together (self-aligning), then weld.

LLoyd

Is your approach based on ease of allignment or strength issues? I
evision corrosion problems where the weld does not completely
penetrate the slot. Upon typing this It is no worse (void penetration
wise) than my original approach with slotted shafts.

With regards to some of the other suggestions: I envision problems
with my buddy (owner of the mill) and his wife with me vaporizing
gallons of sulfurized cutting oil in his garage. So I am leaning
towards no milling of the shafts at the moment.

Thanks again for all the responses.
I will post a pic or two in the dropbox upon completion.

Andy

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:41:20 -0800 (PST), andy
wrote:

Is your approach based on ease of allignment or strength issues? I
evision corrosion problems where the weld does not completely
penetrate the slot. Upon typing this It is no worse (void penetration
wise) than my original approach with slotted shafts.

It sounds like you're concerned about crevice corrosion, and rightly
so. As long as your welds are sound and prevent water from entering
and stagnating in small cavities you'l be OK.

I don't know what the current thinking is on plate rudders. I built a
few large rudders about 25 years ago and I believe the design was
based on research from the University of Maine. There was fairing
added around the rudder post (it was the full length of the rudder), a
flange at the top and bottom, and a wedge cross-section at the
trailing edge. These modifications were supposed to decrease drag and
increase effectiveness without making the fabrication overly
complicated. If you're interested I can make a quick picture.

(Say hi to Rex for me if you see him. He doesn't answer my emails.
g)

--
Ned Simmons

On Dec 9, 10:45*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:41:20 -0800 (PST), andy

wrote:

Is your approach based on ease of allignment or strength issues? *I
evision corrosion problems where the weld does not completely
penetrate the slot. *Upon typing this It is no worse (void penetration
wise) than my original approach with slotted shafts.

It sounds like you're concerned about crevice corrosion, and rightly
so. As long as your welds are sound and prevent water from entering
and stagnating in small cavities you'l be OK.

I don't know what the current thinking is on plate rudders. I built a
few large rudders about 25 years ago and I believe the design was
based on research from the University of Maine. There was fairing
added around the rudder post (it was the full length of the rudder), a
flange at the top and bottom, and a wedge cross-section at the
trailing edge. These modifications were supposed to decrease drag and
increase effectiveness without making the fabrication overly
complicated. If you're interested I can make a quick picture.

(Say hi to Rex for me if you see him. He doesn't answer my emails.
g)

--
Ned Simmons

I read an in-depth article in Professional Boatbuilder magazine about
rudder design. They talk about different foil types and effeciency
and all sorts of stuff. My original plan was to make a bronze
armature over which a white cedar core would be epoxied and faired to
a foil shape. Cover the whole lot with fiberglass, and you have a
rudder.

I have since spoken with a very knowlegeable gentleman from a
propeller shop in Portsmouth NH. He says that he works with a lot of
the racing lobsterboats from Maine. He tells me that the fastest
rudder is a flat plate and to not waste my time with the foil shape.
I also note that most of the boats that I see out of the water have
plate rudders. Now this is more Monkey-see-monkey-do than
engineering, but I am going to go with the real world experience
rather than the books this time.

Unless you can convice me otherwise.
Thanks again, and I will pass on a Hello to Rex.
-Andy

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:53:34 -0800 (PST), the infamous andy
scrawled the following:

I read an in-depth article in Professional Boatbuilder magazine about
rudder design. They talk about different foil types and effeciency
and all sorts of stuff. My original plan was to make a bronze
armature over which a white cedar core would be epoxied and faired to
a foil shape. Cover the whole lot with fiberglass, and you have a
rudder.

I have since spoken with a very knowlegeable gentleman from a
propeller shop in Portsmouth NH. He says that he works with a lot of
the racing lobsterboats from Maine. He tells me that the fastest
rudder is a flat plate and to not waste my time with the foil shape.

That's pure BS. The fastest rudder is a steerable jet. vbg

But I can see smoothing the leading and trailing edges of the rudder
to reduce drag and turbulence if you're racing. The magazines and boat
building shops are prone to marketing hype. I'd trust the prop guy.

--
At current market valuations (GM is worth less than Mattel)
the Chinese government can afford to buy GM with petty cash.
--Bertel Shmitt on kencan7 blogspot

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:53:34 -0800 (PST), andy
wrote:


Unless you can convice me otherwise.

I'm not going to try based on 25 year old information clouded by
memory. It sounds like you're aware of the arguments and have made an
informed decision.

Thanks again, and I will pass on a Hello to Rex.

Thanks. I suspect his email filters think I'm spam, and I'm not good
about thinking to call.

--
Ned Simmons